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Rear axle gears

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tomj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/29/2016 at 6:33pm
i use a simple spreadsheet calculator for this... it makes a table of engine rpm vs. mph vs. axle and tire size. calculates everything, including tire diameter, so it's perfect for what-if use. i recently upgraded it, and i pre-filled out some Ford T5 gears for you.

change only stuff that's green.


if you don't have Excel ($$$) download and install Open Office. that package has a lot of stuff you probably don't want, so at install time select "custom install" and just select Calc and probably Writer (which reads and writes Word documents too).

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greyhounds_AMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/29/2016 at 10:06pm
Can we get 3.15 gears anymore? The 3.31 is available I know, so I was looking at those for my T5 setup.
1968 AMX 390 w/T5
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DaemonForce View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaemonForce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/29/2016 at 10:55pm
This looks useless at first but is really helpful in graphing all of the critical parts of shifting when and how. I've added some other math for the reverse gear because strangely, that's just as important to me. Ermm

I finally got a good look at my wheels today and they're not what I thought they were. A set of Federal Steel 2ply 215/75/R15 reads a diameter of 27.7" on this math scale and then the math gets fun:




Now I just need to highlight the appropriate shift points and compare them to 3.08 and 3.54 sets. Geek
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tomj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/30/2016 at 12:38am
nice! i don't spend much time in reverse! lol but glad it's useful.

> 3.15 gears?

for what chassis? i have one, from a '61 American, the standard auto trans axle, i'm pretty sure it's 3.15:1 (too lazy/cold/dark to look now). i know you're in KC so this is an empty offer, but it's yours for free if you want it. i also have a 3.31 "twin stick" axle in great shape, brakes perfect (repaired/trued backing plates, etc) new-ish bearings and seals, and modified to be greasable. has some air spring perches welded on but don't interfere with leafs in any way.

both are "big nut" rears of course.

until this week, i've never done anything with rear axles except swap them (and repair/rebuild axle ends) -- to accommodate the T14, sans OD, i had to install a compatible-ratio axle. messing with gear changes in these things never seemed cost-effective to me. 

so i got a 2.73:1 1998 Mustang axle, 7.5" ring gear (the ones everyone pulls and junks!), just got it back from being narrowed. $250 for the axle, already pulled, and another $850 to narrow it and center the pinion. this "small" Ford axle looks as beefy as the AMC20, comes with one-piece axles, parts are cheap, and seems a lot easier to mess with than the old Dana stuff (40 years will do that).

it's a lot heavier than the spindly old "big nut" assembly though, which to me is significant. i'll get out the scale and weigh each of them, complete, before i install.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaemonForce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/30/2016 at 1:32am
The amount of time I spend in reverse has mostly to do with reverse parking(something I haven't done in a long time with this wagon), really quick trips in narrow corners and the occasional exit from a nasty offroad situation. I come from a high gear world with a Chrysler automatic that would let me punch reverse in a less than ideal parking lot situation with just enough torque to cheat the turning diameter, adding a really effective trick to heavy steering.

I've been considering axle swaps and it looks like I'm going to be doing it to both axles. The front is easiest but the rear is something I have yet to determine. I want to keep my ultra high ratio options open(2.73-3.54) for future role changes that may or may not include heavy front mounted attachments. Before all of that, it's interesting to look at all the differences going on with the AMC 20, Model 35 and Dana 44 axles. I know of one guy with a hot AMX that is using a Ford 9" but have no idea what ratios he's running and based on the insane level of control with a big  LS1 up front, it's not going to share anything close to my region of gearing, even though a hot American 285 +EFI should be more than enough power for my needs.

The stock Dana 30 is a vac/disc axle that I'll be replacing with a no-disc axle to eliminate 20+ parts and modernize kit compatibility. The stock Model 35 is a bolt in axle with a wide range of options but isn't going to handle my new engine well, especially with the stock gearing and manual swap. This leads me to believe one of these features will have to change as well but while I have options for gearing, they're all married to that front axle: 2.73 / 3.08 / 3.54

The AMC 20 axles look really big and durable but they're too scarce in the NW and I'm not ready to drop $2000+ on a G2 axle. Ford 9" is extremely common but the weight makes me worry about effective use. I could always pull a Dana 44 from a Bronco or Wagoneer but I have no idea what geometry I'll need to follow. It's actually a really difficult problem without the information tables.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/30/2016 at 5:33pm
've paid a fair amount of attention to driveability on the street over the last roughly s5 years of building my self street vehicals and while granted they have been a mix of V8 and I6 engines they all have had to b\pass smog, be civil in city traffic and be capable of real world cross country travel.
Using the basic objective of 32mph/1000 rpm to choose a final drive a hand full of gears for acceleration. My Javelin has a 3.15 to accomplish that and I find that if I had installed a 3.08 I would have liked it better. it is a compromise as 1st gear is a bit short but with the cam I am using maybe being a bit short helps in city traffic, because on the open road the 5 speed works well and it will average 22mpg at state speed limit driving. The automatic cars benefit from a lock up torque converter action along with it being a 2200 rpm stall converter. The aprox. 500 rpm drop in engine speed or so when up to speed help fuel economy thus acts like another over-drive gearing and the 2200 rpm stall help acceleration fro a dead stop. I have recently purchased a 2015 Dodge and it seems to be geared for close to 40mph/1000 rpm which may explain the unreal fuel economy it I getting, of course a 6 speed transmission and a lock up converter may have something to do with it. I have a 700r4 in my Hornet and the final tune condition has not been defined as yet. The rear axle is the 2.7x that was OEM with I-6 which moved the car around for 75,000 miles so I am sure the some what bigger V8 will have no problem either. I will use it until something breaks. It seems to be geared for about 38mph/1000 rpm. When I get it dialed in I'll see. Road gearing is a whole concept of it's own and the overall performance reflects it!
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaemonForce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/01/2016 at 1:38am
I'm absolutely sick of automatics but am completely new to putting any kind of manual in a Jeep. I've been playing around on Blocklayer for a while now and while I'm unable to simulate the Ford with its wide 6.33-1.00 ratios and tall 3.73 diff ratio, the Eagle is perched tall from 4.03-0.86 and a pair of 2.72s. It's really hard to figure out what my driving style is going to be because I'm comparing all sorts of completely unworldly characteristics.

The Ford has a 2v single carb big block V8 (FE) 390ci.
The AMC has a EFI L6 285ci.
The Ford has the wide ratio T18A: 6.33, 3.09, 1.69, 1.00
The AMC will have a close ratio NWC T-5: 4.03, 2.37, 1.50, 1.00, 0.86
The Ford has a Dana 60 with a 3.73 ratio.
The AMC has a Dana 30/Model 35 combo at a 2.72 ratio.
The RPM band on the Ford idles at 1000 and physically tops at 4000.
The RPM band on the AMC idles at ??? and theoretically tops at 4250.
The preferred shift band on the Ford without 1st gear is 1700-1800.
The preferred shift band on the AMC with 1st gear is unknown.

The last time this wagon was on all fours, it had an A998 automatic bolted up. The Ford I've daily driven for two years has me desiring another manual and when my driving is relaxed(lol) I seem to shift AT 1700. If hurried, I'll shift to 2200. I have no idea what cam is in this engine and don't care. The cam I put into the AMC 6 is Crower 44243 and lives between 1500-4000. It has a low to moderate RPM window but scheduling my shifting habits with this calculator make me appear to shift anywhere from 1600-2200. The shift band is walking, which is really strange and that wouldn't be a problem except for the mild cam's design. How does a mild cam have too high of a band? It doesn't. It's a sign that I need to drop diff gears.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/01/2016 at 10:08pm
A generalization is difficult under multiple conditions and is in many ways a preference of convenience with a variable being the vehicle itself and objectives applied to it. If you rarely use rpm than having the capability of it is of little value.
However if road and driving conditions require the use of passing gear being able to down shift an automatic into passing gear and having it up shift into drive at 75mph which can be done with my I-6 Spirit can prove to be advantageous yet there is no comparison between that and being able to pass under the same set of circumstances with my V8 Javelin with out the need to shift at all. Both vehicles use about the same grind cam and are about the same compression ratio however one has about double the HP and a wider selection of gear ratio's due to the type of transmission thus require different driving styles over the same road conditions. They say? They are what they are and the key is to learn to live with that rather than treat them in an identical fashion.
My concession to mechanical variations is to choose road gears for final drive that gives me about 32mph/1000 in what ever top gear is and with the torque converter locked up if so equipped and then choose as many options the transmission can have to move from a dead stop to top gear for the purpose of acceleration.
The 700r4 in my Hornet gives me 4 forward speeds, a 2200 rpm stall Lock Up converter, about 39mph/1000 rpm and it goes down the road quite well at the moment and seems to match the performance of my 2015 Dodge Caravan with a 6 speed automatic transmission. Both vehicles seem to have a lot of flexibility on the open road! Which I guess is why I own them.
Your cam is a very mild cam but should at face value begin to utilize
the efficient performance available in your motor.

Edited by uncljohn - May/01/2016 at 10:25pm
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaemonForce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/02/2016 at 4:25am
Is 32MPH/1000 really all that? Ermm

Maybe it's the fact that I'm not factoring in the behavioral skip of a deep awkward unsynchronized 6.XX spur gear from the clunky T-18 that's bothering me the most about this simulation because I only use it when parking. I'm having a lot of trouble picturing myself actually using 1st gear when I move to the T-5 because I'm thinking of a really high immediate torque engagement with a really low speed ceiling. Shifting out of 1st at 15MPH(2000RPM) when doing a launch just sounds incredibly scary if not for the fact that I associate another behavior where I get stuck in that gear while trying to upshift while moving faster than 5MPH.

As I said before, the shift point on the Ford seems to stick between 1700-1800 and usually drops to 1000-1100 each time. The AMC shift points look the same if I go easy with it but I'm not planning on it. The points want to walk:
15MPH/2000
28MPH/2200
48MPH/2400
78MPH/2600
If I had a 6th gear the next point would look like 112MPH/3200. That's nuts. For what it's worth, I seem to have a 30MPH/1000 formula going on in 4th and 35MPH/1000 in 5th. But that can't be right. Can the T-5 really be comfortable pushing such tall gears? I know this is mostly going to be freeway and some city driving but wow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Alan F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/02/2016 at 7:02am
If you really want to do the job correctly you need to define the torque band in the engine against the gearing. The curb weight of the vehicle is also a factor. A high revving V8 needs different gear splits than an I6.
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