Questioning the overdrive and starting

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Topic: Questioning the overdrive and starting
Posted: Jul/23/2017 at 11:33pm

I am blessed to have found an American 1967 220. I am having issues starting it. the overdrive lever is in it as well as the wiring for the overdrive .....the person that owned it before me may have taken it out because I don't see the overdrive at the transmission at all. I have spare wires running to nothing, originally they would have run to the overdrive solenoid and the overdrive governor. which I found out from the manual . I have started to pull my hair out trying to sort the starting issues.... replaced coil, points, condenser, plugs. It cranks but I get no spark. Traced wires and so on but still no resolve I'm half tempted to change the regulator or switch to a GM alternator. I'm also considering that the overdrive wires may create a fusible link or feasible circuit that would disable the car from starting? I want to thank everybody for reading this long and drawn out post, and any and all help. I could really use the help.

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Posted: Jul/23/2017 at 11:47pm

Do you have a factory service manual? If so, make sure the ignition is wired in accordance with the circuit diagram. Also if a couple of specific wires to the ( presumably missing) overdrive kick down switch on the throttle linkage are touching, that could ground out your ignition. Make sure those wires are separated and the ends are taped separate from each other or remove them. A TSM ( service manual) will be a big help. Joe

Happiness is making something out of nothing.

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Posted: Jul/24/2017 at 12:52am

Joe
Thank you for the advice. I do have a factory service manual for the Rambler and will go ahead with making sure that nothing is touching I've done that a couple times but good to be over precautions. Still no fire unfortunately. Thank you, Sam

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Posted: Jul/24/2017 at 8:19pm

Ok make sure you have power to the yellow wire at the positive terminal of the coil both with the ignition On and while cranking. If you do and there is still no fire at the plugs, then you have to check the coil and downstream of it. Primary and secondary resistance specs are in the TSM. If it is within specs, check the distributor ground wire, cap, and if good replace the condenser again. They can be bad right out of the box.

Happiness is making something out of nothing.

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Posted: Jul/25/2017 at 6:46pm

If the wiring for your OD is any thing like the wiring for my 63 American you'll need to go thru your OD wiring with a good OD wiring schematic and service book in hand.

As an example, with mine the book states ... If the indicator light is shorted the car will not start. If coil to vacuum switch wire or it's terminal on the vacuum switch are shorted, the car will not start. However, if the opposite terminal of the vacuum switch is shorted, this will have the same symptoms as a shorted indicator light.

So even though you don't have the mechanical OD in place, if any wiring remains there are all kinds of opportunities for problems.

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Posted: Jul/25/2017 at 10:22pm

Thank you Johnny. I can only hope that I will find exactly why it's not starting still. I purchased the car not running. And didn't take into consideration the overdrive not being there. With the lever still under the dashboard We had one when I was a kid and of course fond memories gave me the nostalgia to have one and bring it back to life. Again thank you for your help, I hope I can get it running

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Posted: Jul/26/2017 at 1:29am

if there is no OD in the car, you don't need it's wiring. alternator etc has nothign at all to do with ignition, no need to mess with it. all the alt (or generator) does is charge the abttery. important, but nothing to do with driving the car. you can run a car with battery only (but of course it will go dead in a day).

electrical stuff you have to be methodical. do you have a voltmeter or a test light? you can make one out of a taillight assembly and wire. test it.

FIRST, key on, there should be 12V on the + terminal of the coil. this doesn't change with OD non OD, etc. no 12V, STOP, fix that.

if you have contact points in the distributor still (eg. not a Pertronix module or other non-factory setup) then the only other ignition wire you need is the one that runs from the coil - terminal to the distributor. if there are other wires -- all that OD stuff -- REMOVE IT. no need to chop it, just fold it back out of the way, tape it up. worry about it later.

take the distributor cap off. bump the car over until the points are OPEN. or put matchbook cover in them so they;re open.

SECOND, you should measure 12V at the - side of the coil, or see voltage there with the test light. no voltage? STOP coil is bad.

bump the engine over until the points are open maximum on the peak of the cam. set the gap now. yo can do this with a DWELL meter, or just gap it at .034", used to be the thickness of a match book doubled. i bet they are thinner today! lol. even so, it will get you in the ballpark. "close enough" to run OK.

if you really want to get thorough, take out the #1 spark plug. stick your finger in the hole! crank the engine over, bump, bump, bump. just a bit at a time. at some point compression on #1 cyl will FART your finger out of the hole. This is TDC compression stroke #1 cylinder.

if the harmonic balancer isn't spun -- it is VERY COMMON for the 195.6, less so for the 232 -- the timing mark should be somewhere in the vicinity of the marker/pointer. it could be hard to find. this is a good time to clean it and paint-mark it. if it's within an inch or so, close enough for this next step. (but if you bump the engine/turn with a wrench to get it to line up perfectly, you can set the timing in the next step.)

THIRD, when #1 cyl is at TDC compression stroke, the rotor on the distributor must be, should be, pointing at the wire in the cap that goes to #1 spark plug. if you lined the mark up precisely, the rotor will point RIGHT AT #1 wire. if not, loosen the clamp and rotate the distributor so it is. if it's waaaay off, then the distrib is in wrong when someone was messing around before you and left a mess for you now.

THIS ABOVE IS GOSPEL. without the above conditions it won't run. ipso facto, if it's correct, and it won't run, it's not because of spark. but there's another check to make for that (belt and suspenders).

that #1 plug you pulled out? assemble the cap on the distrib, check wiring/firing order, 1 5 3 6 2 4 counter clockwise, put the wire on #1 spark plug but hold the body of the spark plug on the chassis or enghine, anywhere there's bare metal. crank the engine over. you should see a bright blue/orange spark jump about every half second.

put the plug back in. if that all happens and adjusted like that, it WILL run (assuming there's compression, and fuel). dwell and timing will not be perfect but it will probably even be nicely drivable.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Posted: Jul/26/2017 at 7:59am

IF you have a long output shaft housing you don't have an OD trans. If it has a short output housing and the speedo cable goes into a rather large part of the trans, you do. There will also be something that looks kind of like a heater fan blower motor sticking out of the gear shift lever side of the trans if you have OD. Most likely the OD failed either electrically or mechanically (the planetary gear shafts can break if it's not wired and used properly, expensive to replace)and it was replaced with a standard three speed. Hopefully they changed the rear axle too, as OD axles are usually kind of low.

The ignition is wired through the OD. The OD kick-down switch will short out the coil momentarily to allow the OD to slip out. There is also a wire to the solenoid that disconnects the ignition. So when they removed the OD they may not have wired around the OD relay and the kick-down switch. The only way to tell is to use the wiring diagram for the car with and without OD to determine where things should be. I'd remove all the OD harness (assuming you don't have the OD unit) then look at the wiring without OD and re-route the wires that way. And you may as well pull that handle from under the dash...

Frank Swygert

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Samreye Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Fan Joined: Jul/23/2017 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Samreye Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Questioning the overdrive and starting Posted: Jul/23/2017 at 11:33pm
	I am blessed to have found an American 1967 220. I am having issues starting it. the overdrive lever is in it as well as the wiring for the overdrive .....the person that owned it before me may have taken it out because I don't see the overdrive at the transmission at all. I have spare wires running to nothing, originally they would have run to the overdrive solenoid and the overdrive governor. which I found out from the manual . I have started to pull my hair out trying to sort the starting issues.... replaced coil, points, condenser, plugs. It cranks but I get no spark. Traced wires and so on but still no resolve I'm half tempted to change the regulator or switch to a GM alternator. I'm also considering that the overdrive wires may create a fusible link or feasible circuit that would disable the car from starting? I want to thank everybody for reading this long and drawn out post, and any and all help. I could really use the help.

pacerman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9060	Post Options Post Reply Quote pacerman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Jul/23/2017 at 11:47pm
	Do you have a factory service manual? If so, make sure the ignition is wired in accordance with the circuit diagram. Also if a couple of specific wires to the ( presumably missing) overdrive kick down switch on the throttle linkage are touching, that could ground out your ignition. Make sure those wires are separated and the ends are taped separate from each other or remove them. A TSM ( service manual) will be a big help. Joe
	Happiness is making something out of nothing.

Samreye Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Fan Joined: Jul/23/2017 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Samreye Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Jul/24/2017 at 12:52am
	Joe Thank you for the advice. I do have a factory service manual for the Rambler and will go ahead with making sure that nothing is touching I've done that a couple times but good to be over precautions. Still no fire unfortunately. Thank you, Sam

pacerman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9060	Post Options Post Reply Quote pacerman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Jul/24/2017 at 8:19pm
	Ok make sure you have power to the yellow wire at the positive terminal of the coil both with the ignition On and while cranking. If you do and there is still no fire at the plugs, then you have to check the coil and downstream of it. Primary and secondary resistance specs are in the TSM. If it is within specs, check the distributor ground wire, cap, and if good replace the condenser again. They can be bad right out of the box.
	Happiness is making something out of nothing.

Johnny Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Apprentice Joined: Mar/20/2015 Location: Tampa, FL Status: Offline Points: 30	Post Options Post Reply Quote Johnny Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Jul/25/2017 at 6:46pm
	If the wiring for your OD is any thing like the wiring for my 63 American you'll need to go thru your OD wiring with a good OD wiring schematic and service book in hand. As an example, with mine the book states ... If the indicator light is shorted the car will not start. If coil to vacuum switch wire or it's terminal on the vacuum switch are shorted, the car will not start. However, if the opposite terminal of the vacuum switch is shorted, this will have the same symptoms as a shorted indicator light. So even though you don't have the mechanical OD in place, if any wiring remains there are all kinds of opportunities for problems.

Samreye Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Fan Joined: Jul/23/2017 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Samreye Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Jul/25/2017 at 10:22pm
	Thank you Johnny. I can only hope that I will find exactly why it's not starting still. I purchased the car not running. And didn't take into consideration the overdrive not being there. With the lever still under the dashboard We had one when I was a kid and of course fond memories gave me the nostalgia to have one and bring it back to life. Again thank you for your help, I hope I can get it running

tomj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7553	Post Options Post Reply Quote tomj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Jul/26/2017 at 1:29am
	if there is no OD in the car, you don't need it's wiring. alternator etc has nothign at all to do with ignition, no need to mess with it. all the alt (or generator) does is charge the abttery. important, but nothing to do with driving the car. you can run a car with battery only (but of course it will go dead in a day). electrical stuff you have to be methodical. do you have a voltmeter or a test light? you can make one out of a taillight assembly and wire. test it. FIRST, key on, there should be 12V on the + terminal of the coil. this doesn't change with OD non OD, etc. no 12V, STOP, fix that. if you have contact points in the distributor still (eg. not a Pertronix module or other non-factory setup) then the only other ignition wire you need is the one that runs from the coil - terminal to the distributor. if there are other wires -- all that OD stuff -- REMOVE IT. no need to chop it, just fold it back out of the way, tape it up. worry about it later. take the distributor cap off. bump the car over until the points are OPEN. or put matchbook cover in them so they;re open. SECOND, you should measure 12V at the - side of the coil, or see voltage there with the test light. no voltage? STOP coil is bad. bump the engine over until the points are open maximum on the peak of the cam. set the gap now. yo can do this with a DWELL meter, or just gap it at .034", used to be the thickness of a match book doubled. i bet they are thinner today! lol. even so, it will get you in the ballpark. "close enough" to run OK. if you really want to get thorough, take out the #1 spark plug. stick your finger in the hole! crank the engine over, bump, bump, bump. just a bit at a time. at some point compression on #1 cyl will FART your finger out of the hole. This is TDC compression stroke #1 cylinder. if the harmonic balancer isn't spun -- it is VERY COMMON for the 195.6, less so for the 232 -- the timing mark should be somewhere in the vicinity of the marker/pointer. it could be hard to find. this is a good time to clean it and paint-mark it. if it's within an inch or so, close enough for this next step. (but if you bump the engine/turn with a wrench to get it to line up perfectly, you can set the timing in the next step.) THIRD, when #1 cyl is at TDC compression stroke, the rotor on the distributor must be, should be, pointing at the wire in the cap that goes to #1 spark plug. if you lined the mark up precisely, the rotor will point RIGHT AT #1 wire. if not, loosen the clamp and rotate the distributor so it is. if it's waaaay off, then the distrib is in wrong when someone was messing around before you and left a mess for you now. THIS ABOVE IS GOSPEL. without the above conditions it won't run. ipso facto, if it's correct, and it won't run, it's not because of spark. but there's another check to make for that (belt and suspenders). that #1 plug you pulled out? assemble the cap on the distrib, check wiring/firing order, 1 5 3 6 2 4 counter clockwise, put the wire on #1 spark plug but hold the body of the spark plug on the chassis or enghine, anywhere there's bare metal. crank the engine over. you should see a bright blue/orange spark jump about every half second. put the plug back in. if that all happens and adjusted like that, it WILL run (assuming there's compression, and fuel). dwell and timing will not be perfect but it will probably even be nicely drivable.
	1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com

farna Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19686	Post Options Post Reply Quote farna Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Jul/26/2017 at 7:59am
	IF you have a long output shaft housing you don't have an OD trans. If it has a short output housing and the speedo cable goes into a rather large part of the trans, you do. There will also be something that looks kind of like a heater fan blower motor sticking out of the gear shift lever side of the trans if you have OD. Most likely the OD failed either electrically or mechanically (the planetary gear shafts can break if it's not wired and used properly, expensive to replace)and it was replaced with a standard three speed. Hopefully they changed the rear axle too, as OD axles are usually kind of low. The ignition is wired through the OD. The OD kick-down switch will short out the coil momentarily to allow the OD to slip out. There is also a wire to the solenoid that disconnects the ignition. So when they removed the OD they may not have wired around the OD relay and the kick-down switch. The only way to tell is to use the wiring diagram for the car with and without OD to determine where things should be. I'd remove all the OD harness (assuming you don't have the OD unit) then look at the wiring without OD and re-route the wires that way. And you may as well pull that handle from under the dash...
	Frank Swygert