intake manifold pcv baffle/splash shield question
Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=99538
Printed Date: Apr/18/2024 at 5:26am
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Topic: intake manifold pcv baffle/splash shield question
Posted By: tom999q
Subject: intake manifold pcv baffle/splash shield question
Date Posted: Apr/14/2019 at 11:18pm
| I've just realized that I'd installed my intake manifold without the splash shield because it's still riveted to the old manifold I took off. Is it vital that this shield be installed? I drive my cars maybe less than 200 miles per year. I was thinking that driving it only to shows once or twice a year won't affect anything? The car is a 1971 360 ci. |
Replies:
Posted By: mixed up
Date Posted: Apr/14/2019 at 11:46pm
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with out the baffle there possibility of high oil consumption because the pcv go's right into the lifter vally that about it ------------- 69 amx 290 auto 65 220 290 4spd 80 ford fairmont |
Posted By: tom999q
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 5:27am
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Oops, I've should have added that I'm also using a one piece metal pan intake manifold gasket.. |
Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 6:11am
| Watch where your PCV routes to your air cleaner. If it is wet with oil then you need a baffle. You need a baffle regardless, just a matter of what you personally are OK with given the low usage your engine will experience. |
Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 8:26am
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You can also install a PVC line oil separator and my suggestion would be to put the return on the oil fill tube (easiest, most convenient, cheapest part to replace at a later date). https://www.goodparts.com/shop/index.php?categoryID=8" rel="nofollow - https://www.goodparts.com/shop/index.php?categoryID=8 There are other units that are cheaper, above is just an example of what I'm referring to.
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Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 8:39am
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The metal intake pan gasket isn't that terribly expensive. Pull the intake manifold and transfer the PCV baffle to the bottom of the aluminum intake and be done with it. ------------- 70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972 |
Posted By: nda racer
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 12:15pm
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Try it out. I never put the baffle on mine and have only ever pulled oil after a full 1/4 mile pass. Cruising, not a drop. Same for my Buddy's Gremlin. He daily drove it, drove it 1500+ mile round trip to race with no issues. If you end up pulling oil, I'd use what Trader mentioned. Anyhow, 200 miles a year is really nothing to sweat.
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Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 12:25pm
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Rick Jones did this to the underside of my Eddy Performer intake for me... he does something similar to all the intakes he works on... 
 He also did this to modify the EGR system as well...  |
Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 12:27pm
| Is that a red Scotch Brite pad? With all of those loosely-adhered chunks of silicon carbide abrasive in a nylon mesh? |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 12:34pm
Yes it is. He's probably built over 100 AMC engines... so I'm good with it... and I am sure he will chime in if he sees this post. Edit: See this link for more info... some others had the same objection.. but others verified that it does indeed work fine... http://theamcforum.com/forum/pcv-oil-burning-u-may-be-all-wrong_topic21370.html" rel="nofollow - http://theamcforum.com/forum/pcv-oil-burning-u-may-be-all-wrong_topic21370.html
And... http://theamcforum.com/forum/intake-manifold-diagram-needed_topic48949.html" rel="nofollow - http://theamcforum.com/forum/intake-manifold-diagram-needed_topic48949.html |
ChillyB wrote:Posted By: tom999q
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 12:53pm
 Thanks for the replies guys, alot of good info here. I think I'm going to bite it and take the manifold off and put the baffle back on. Does anyone know an auto parts store that sells the drive screws? I've also heard you can use pop rivets.. |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:01pm
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I have seen steel wool done too. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:03pm
The only caveat to that is some guys have said they will eventually rust, break down and fall into the engine.....
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Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:03pm
| I like the nylon mesh, but I'd find something without the abrasives. There is no reson to want abrasives inside an engine, lots of reasons to not want them. The effect of the abrasives wont be immediate or dramatic. In fact, when the engine is worn out in many years one may feel they got their money's worth out of it. Maybe they could have had a few more years between rebuilds, though. Maybe we're all old enough that it will be someone else's problem. Seems incredible to have a discussion about whether to put scotch brite inside an engine. It's banned in my shop, which builds engines big enough to hide a small child inside each cylinder. |
Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:05pm
| I bought a pack of mixed size drive screws. Send me a PM and I'll mail you some. As congratulations for doing the hard thing to make it right. |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:12pm
Ah, i would have thought oil would coat the steel wool... heres a thought, if you have a machine shop, obtain machined SS worms (bit cuttings) and ball them all up in a loose wad. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:17pm
| Stainless steel pot scrubbers are commercially available. There are also those round nylon pot scrubbers with no abrasives. Original engines had an empty baffle and seemed to work fine. What problem are we trying to solve by packing foreign material into the baffle? |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:21pm
Regardless of your shop, your standards and the size of the babies that fit in the cylinders of the engines you have built... Rick has been doing this long enough to know what works on these engines and what doesn't. And I've been following his builds for a long long time too. From my knowledge... he's never had a customer complain about the scotch brite pad under the the intake manifold and he's certainly never had an engine fail because of it... not on here or on ANY of the other 3-4 forums he showcases his work on....
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Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:24pm
| Like I said the effect of abrasives wont cause a failure a customer would complain about. Cult followings aside, the best case for putting abrasives inside an engine is that nobody has complained about it. Pretty weak case. |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:27pm
Uh.. OK ChillyB... how many AMC engines have you built? |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:28pm
Well, from many performance engines, it seems sucking oil through pcv is easier on the AMC engines. Though for big builds, they scavange pcv externally, thus the oil vapors are burt off through exchaust, rather than recycled into the combustion, and coating the intake floor as well. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:32pm
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About the use of abrasives... way back, for resealing piston cylinders, bon ami was used, by shaking it into a running engine. This is a old timer story, and now these days powered cleansers are made differently in thier composition. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:34pm
| I can see this is on the brink of becoming personal. Enough information and opinions have been shared for any readers to make up their own mind. If one does elect to put scotch brite in an engine at least give it a vigorous rub between your hands over a sheet of clean paper to shake off some of the abrasives. It comes off easily, though impossible to get it all. What falls off is a combination of abrasives, and also a flaky binder made of calcium (I think). The abrasive is actually aluminum oxide, not silicon carbide as I originally stated. Hard stuff none the less. |
Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 1:56pm
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I don't use anything but the Scotch Bright heavy duty green food safe scouring pads have no abrasives, just the same nylon/resin pad material. Exhaust resonator or permanent intake filter SS mesh would also work. It is woven and would not come apart. Just other options for people that want something in there.
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Posted By: tom999q
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 2:09pm
| Does anyone know how to install the drive screws? It looks like I drill out the old broken ones. My research on the forums shows that the drive screws are #8 x 3/8". Do they just hammer in? |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 2:14pm
You don't want to tell us how many AMC engines you built? Fine.... don't... but you are ignoring the fact that if the system is working correctly... the PVC valve should suck upwards into the intake and combustion chamber.. not down into the engine... Oh and guess how many engines I've built... ZERO...
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Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 2:14pm
| Drill appropriately sized hole and tap them in. Screws have a short stump of "unthreaded" length to help start them. |
Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 2:24pm
Side stepping the ad hominem aspect of your post, yes the PCV draws from the crankcase to the intake. Thats another area where abrasives should be avoided, by the way. But I doubt any scotch brite bits will be drawn by the fairly lazy draw of manifold vacuum. Instead, the pad becomes saturated by the oil mist which collects in it, then drips down over the cam lobes and lifter to the oil pan. Thats the purpose of the baffle: to mechanically separate the misted oil from the air and fumes. Fumes and air go up, oil drips back down.
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Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 2:55pm
Green will scratch glass. There are blue non-scratch scour pads that seem to be free of abrasives.
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Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 2:57pm
You are splitting hairs here to defend your own position! Meanwhile... you seem to have no problem diminishing someone else who's been building these engines longer than you've probably even been alive! Let me guess.. you are in your mid 30's.. started working at a engine machine shop a while back... think you know a thing or two now that you seen some stuff... decided to log into the AMC Forum one day and are now ready to tell everyone how to build these engines better! So.. I guess we'll all just start listening to you now that you're here to enlighten us. So what engine shop do you work for? You've convinced me and I'm confident you can build me a real nice 360.
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Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 3:03pm
| You seem very delicate. Just an observation. |
Posted By: tom999q
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 3:20pm
| Hey guys, Can we get back on topic? We're all on this forum because of a common interest. We can all be friends. |
Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 3:40pm
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There are 2 Scotch Brite green pads, one industrial abrasive and the other scouring food grade cleaning. There is the blue and white food grade also: http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/347828O/scotch-brite-hand-pads.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/347828O/scotch-brite-hand-pads.pdf https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/scotch-brite-industrial-us/" rel="nofollow - https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/scotch-brite-industrial-us/
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Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 4:23pm
Oh yeah... I'm real delicate... So tell us... What shop do you work at so we can all start sending our engines to you instead of the rest of these guys? You've convinced me that we need to take the next generation of AMC engine builders more seriously.
So where is your website, Facebook or Instagram pages? How about all the forum pages that entail all your AMC engine builds? Show us all your work so we can start promoting you and your skills? Or do you want us just to take you and your professional experience in engine building at your word? I mean... While that's good enough for silly old me... It might not get you a lot of business from the others here. So tell us... How many of these old engines have you built? What's the most recent Dyno numbers for an AMC engine? Also... When you find metal shavings in the oil after break in... Do you just scrap the whole engine? Seriously... Imagine how abrasive metal shavings from initial break in are!!! Whew... You must throw out a lot of engines because you're such a perfectionist!!!
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Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 4:32pm
| Engines we build cost more than your house. Look elsewhere. |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 5:17pm
Haha... Oh I bet they do but seriously... I could really use a $250k AMC engine... So you must have built a pretty bad azz AMC engine for yourse lf then! So just tell us... Where is your shop? We all want to know where the best AMC engine builder in the country works!!! Do you use the valley line? Bi metal or tri metal bearings? What's your favorite break in oil? How about your favorite oil pan? Canton, Milodon or custom? Do you like swing arm pick ups or stationary? Tell us all about the little tricks and tips you have developed over your 35 lifetime that will make big AMC power!! We're all ready usher you in as the AMC Forums newest most prestigous AMC engine builder. I can't wait to see you make a name for yourself. It's a real privilege to know you!
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Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 6:44pm
Check it out. Air cleaner is available by the roll now. |
Posted By: Midnight Rambler
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 6:45pm
Fastenal carries drive screws. -------------  '66 American 440 Convertible 290/M-40/AMC 20 3.15/PS/PB '04 Jeep Wrangler X Rocky Mountain Edition 4.0 5sp |
Posted By: Phitown Hustler
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 6:47pm
I have never used the oil baffle and metal valley gasket with an aftermarket intake and never will. You should be good with just the valley pan. I always used a chrome filter on the oil fill tube as well which may make a difference. Never have had issues with oil clogging a PCV. IMO just drive it a while and see if it is a problem and then you can fix it if it is.
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Posted By: sweatlock
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 7:08pm
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I haven’t built any AMC engines myself, but I personally wouldn’t go sticking a Brillo pad into the underside of an intake. In “Performance American Style”, AMC seemed to go out of their way to stress cleanliness during an engine build and its importance. However, AMC built quite a few engines and I’m pretty sure they didn’t stick scouring pads into the underside of the intake - at least not intentionally. Maybe a hungover UAW worker after a wild weekend on a dare...?
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Posted By: Jmerican
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 8:24pm
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@chillyb, 100% agree, putting abrasive scotchbrite in an engine is foolish. I can’t imagine anyone knowingly putting 320 grit in their engine, because that is what is loosely bound to that pad. But you know this. And good on you for taking the high road with concord 182. And Concord... you are the only person I’ve seen on this forum act like an (..) Just pisses me off. I’ve seen a few jabs here and there on this forum, for sure. But not much condescending, baiting, rude, and nasty. Are you looking to win points with Rick? So he’s built some engines. He can put his reasoning up here, or he can take a pointer, and put in some bronze wool, or white scotchbrite, or what have you. I’m sure I’ve missed some epic behavior on here, from days gone by. But dude. You owe an apology.
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Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 10:39pm
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Sooo - what kind of baffle can be used for a custom made 6 pack??? Get over it please, 3.2 micron particles will get embedded in babbit and likely not cause any long term issues. Molecular weight oil 0.8 g/mol, silicon carbide 40 g/mol - it sinks to the bottom of the pan and most goes out with the oil changes.. Most air filters only filter 5 to 10 micron. Most oil filters will catch 3 to 10 micron, depending on brand. Introducing a small amount of very small particulate will likely not cause long term harm. Whether you build with a baffle "filter" or not is personal preference......... can I put enough periods to this??? When building an engine, clean and clean again, I believe everyone can agree on. Installing a baffle is always better for oil separation through the PVC circuit, I believe everyone can agree on. Your engine, your build. Have a six pack! |
Posted By: Jmerican
Date Posted: Apr/15/2019 at 11:44pm
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In terms of being decent to each other I’m not over it Trader. In terms of using an abrasive pad that sheds particles of 320 grit on average, I think Chilly made a good point. Sure, to each their own. But for dude to start in on him, with all this condescending bs; I’m not over it. And 320 grit is not 3.2 microns, more like 20-30, but can break down to smaller, and average or even good filters don’t filter at an appreciable efficiency at 3.2, or really even 10 micron. Usually around 20 microns, but not absolute. Nonetheless I wouldn’t polish a crank at 320, though I’m sure it wouldn’t kill it at all. Embedded in the Babbitt? Ok, maybe, but some bearings are hard, so is the grit. And sharp. To Chilly’s other point, the stuff can cause wear and not really “show up” in the engine per se. I get we can all get down on the noobs or take on a little airyness, but dude hardly had an uneducated thought. And even so, most people on here try to be helpful. Now I’m getting over it. |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 1:58am
I have taken two apart that had a Scotchbrite pad in them. Both had pure copper showing on ALL the bearings and heavy crank damage. Both had been together a while and both had the pads disentigrating into dust. I found pieces all over, including in the oil galleys. DON'T do it. Use stainless Chore Boy. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 2:06am
------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 5:50am
Ha... All I saw was a cry baby... Now I see two... All this bull crap over a scotch Brite pad when it ain't gonna do nothing... The big issue with them is guys using them to clean parts and not cleaning them properly afterwards. I'm not apologizing for nothing. The guy is acting like he's the forum's newest most prestigous engine builder yet he won't show us his work? Nah... You two can start the Chilly B fan club now I guess...
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Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 6:01am
So..Pictures? What was the engine used for? Support your statements with details and evidence. How many other engines have you torn down and found this problem? Was this the only one? As soon as you guys prove this is a systemic problem for guys throughout the last 20-30years... I believe it then... until then... Pound rocks... |
Posted By: Buzzman72
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 6:03am
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When I was in the parts department at the Ford dealership in '99-'2000 and we had the 3.8 V6 head gasket recall going on, techs at our dealership would use the Scotchbrite Roloc discs to clean the block surface before installing the new head gaskets. More often than not, once the engine was reassembled, rod knock would ensue, and besides being on the hook for the head gasket replacement, Ford was now on the hook for long block replacement. Ford finally told the techs [not sure if there was a service bulletin on this or not] to STOP USING THE ROLOC DISCS when replacing head gaskets. Based upon that information, I'd be leery of using the Scotchbrite products in a baffle...because everything eventually deteriorates. If you can get the stainless steel wool, use it. My advice, and worth every penny you paid for it.
------------- Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects. |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 6:05am
All you have to do is get us you info and we'll start sending you our engine. Unless of course you're too big a coward! You talk all this stuff you won't tell us where you work or how many AMC engines you've built? LoL... And you called me delicate? Ha... Oh yeah... JAmerican was right... You've really taken the high road here...
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Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 9:12am
| You use many words to reveal yourself a chump. I reveal you with so few. That's efficiency. |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 10:01am
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When an individual is convinced he/she is right, you are NOT going to change their opinion. So, can you guys give it a rest? This is starting to resemble a post on a Chevy board.  ------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 10:04am
------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 10:28am
Well... how conveinet. It's really funny that you and Chilly seem to love giving out advice but when challanged... you're just too darn busy to provide evidence supporting your position but I'm supposed to just give it a rest though right? Hey... but you had more than enough time to log in to the forum and give your two cents? So yeah... You two are talking a lot, want me to shut up because I'm not an engine builder but we're supposed to just take your word for it like Chilly? Naw... I don't think so. If you have proof.. then show us... If not... Go back to being too busy making a living. I'm also not the only person Rick has set up an intake for... So where are all the complaints from those people? Where are all the failing engines? I hope that wasn't too many words for you. |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 10:39am
Careful there in case someone accuses you of grossly over-charging because I could suggest that you must charge a quarter million dollars for your engines as that's what it would take in my case - want to see my Polk County tax assessment? (but that's a different topic.............. ugh) Instead, I would suggest that price means nothing, stop bragging and baiting. Remember, you joined READING AND KNOWING the rules - and baiting is one of those rules people have, well, disappeared over. How about meaningful positive helpful suggestions? This place isn't to brag about very expensive engine builds, it's to help those who have AMC engine related questions (note I said AMC ENGINE, not Mopar, Ford, Chevy, etc.) In short - lighten up or else. -------------  http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 10:40am
Roger - good call - and did you know that if you need a gun and badge to come along help keep the peace, you can click the report post icon and a mod will come by with aid, and force, if necessary? Thanks. Good post. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 10:52am
BillD.... I obviously haven't turned into a saint since the beginning of this slugfest but I had the best intentions with my original post and that was because I was trying to be helpful. If you go back and look... I have never ever had a coarse word for anyone on this forum... Ever... But a guy can only take so much... Not only was I getting it from him... I'm taking flack from several others now too. What's a guy supposed to do? I'm not the one acting like a know it all... I just thought I was helping... I didn't know I would become a whipping boy for posting a few pictures...
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Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 11:10am
| Shucks, Pa. We was just funnin'. I'm sure Concord and I will be fast friends once I hit magic number 100 AMC rebuilds. I'll be good from now on. |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 11:15am
billd, I did not know that. Thanks for the info, I'll store it in what little brain I have left. Just a general thought, the car hobby is supposed to be fun and this forum is, at least in my mind, supposed to support that. But standing up to a wall and unzipping our pants...... ------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 11:27am
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I trust Rick Jones 150%. He races, he knows AMC engines, and if I didn't do my own work, he'd be one person I'd take stuff to. And Rick ain't the only one who has used that trick with no negative impact. I wish I had taken photos a year or so ago when I pulled the baffle off an R4B so I could put it on an Offy intake - and up in the baffle was the exact same pad in the photos of the intake Rick did. That R4B had been in place a good ten years and 6,000 miles. Everyone had their methods. Since many use that trick with total success and I've not seen an engine destroyed by it, well.......... Is it ideal? Perhaps not. But is there evidence it destroys or even damages engines? If such evidence exists, we'd like to see it. I, too, build engines and have since I was about 14. I am now 62 but I don't feel like doing math right now. That doesn't make me perfect, and I've made mistakes over the years, but it shows I've seen a few things, and i've been successful. Doesn't make me better or worse as a person. I got started because I was one who people started bringing things to that others had screwed up. I ticked off another shop owner when I was only in my teens. He was PO'd because I was taking his business away. I simply told my customers that if he did a better job I'd not be able to take his business. By the way, did you know that you can use the cellophane off a cigarette package to shim the crank bearings in a 1935 Chevy engine? Seen it done - and the owner of the car drove it for years. Anyway, Rick never brags about anything - he doesn't have to. He's got a great reputation. So if he did that I'd think, hmmmmmm, he does it, I've seen it before, and I've done similar - and never had one fall apart, so I can't argue against it. Ideal? Well, there's stuff made for that purpose. Bad thing? When you take a pad of the same type out of an intake that's been in use for a decade on a car that ran hot and got several thousand miles on it and it was intact after all of that time, and I washed the pad up and continued to use it as a cleaning pad - I can't jump up and down and scream "oh you rotten person!". Should I brag about reputation and history? Sure, others here have done it....... OK, building and working on cars since age 14 - am now 62 Had my own shop at age 16 and still have some of my old business cards as well as an article from the local paper. Didn't have to take first two levels of classes in HS - because I was already doing work well above those classes. My test to get credit without taking the classes was intense. Set record state level Plymouth troubleshooting contest, 1975. Fastest time, perfect score written test. Was never passed up through the time MOPAR cut the contest later. 14th at nationals but my partner had a little pill problem and wasn't at his best that morning. Otherwise I think we'd have done top 5 anyway. 4.0 gpa in college - degree in automotive. Over the years worked for "old timers" who taught me a few tricks. Turned down the business manager of the largest AMC/Jeep dealership in Iowa when he offered me service manager spot. I liked hands-on better. Currently have shop with boring bar, valve and seat equipment, and other stuff. I don't know everything, I know what I don't know, and that's mostly what counts. Who has done the most engines doesn't mean SQUAT - I can point to other things where attention to detail, taking the time and spending the time and doing it better is more important than doing the most. If I only did 100 in a time period (say, 4 years?) compared to someone else doing 400 in that same time period - does that make their work better? Are they better or smarter? Faster perhaps with more automation. (my boring bar is from the 1950s so not really fast, but it's good - but it's all manual so takes more time to set it up) Does dollar amount count? Not really - ask Rick Jones about his 360 build on a budget. Besides, shop rates here are so much lower than many other states - you can't compare total cost. I can do an engine for a fraction of the cost of others, in part because I only need to eat and pay bills, but also because our rates are lower in this area. So comparing prices of final product also doesn't mean quality. So frankly, bragging about the numbers of engines done or the final costs doesn't really mean one person knows better or does better work. Anyone dissing your photos of the intake and pad are smacking down and calling Rick Jones a fool, too - some should keep that in mind. So if we're all done comparing ####s, as Lois Lane says in the movie "Man of Steel", maybe we should move on? ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 11:29am
HAHAHAHAHAHA - see my recent comment - Lois Lane in the movie Man of Steel has an encounter with guys who think because she's a woman............ anyway, she says "so if we're all done comparing.........." and your comment parallels that and I had to laugh out loud (awaking a couple of the cats sleeping near by) ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: nda racer
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 11:51am
Amen!
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Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 12:11pm
No we won't... You could build 1000 engines... Won't matter to me. I'll bet you your 250k engine ... that can hide a baby in it... on that...
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Posted By: Jmerican
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 12:18pm
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I have yet to see anyone disrespecting Rick, yet this seems to be about defending him. First from a guy who through his own admission has built zero engines, then all the rest. Mod chimes in and then it becomes his story. A story similar to many gear heads. And yes, a good story. But while first addressing the point of being helpful; I fail to see addressed the conduct, and instead I read a story, and see all this Rick championing from a few. I go back and read this whole thread. Some super helpful things are being said, for people on different levels and needing drive screw know how. I see Chilly respectfully interacted on the scotchbrite. He gets baited and attacked and still keeps his cool. I see overlooked solid evidence of damage done by abrasives,presented by several experienced people, and more defensive aggressive posturing. Go back and read from the beginning. Anyone? There were some really good points made, in respectful ways. This got really personal. And not much is addressing that. All over a 320 grit piece of crankcase filter. I think Chilly was entitled to his opinion being respected. I happen to share in the thoughts he had, As does Amb390, and others. |
Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 1:02pm
Dont sweat it on my account, Jmerican. I know who I am, what I know to be true, and what Ive accomplished professionally. Not here for validation from members or mods. Here to learn and help. Humble enough to do the former, experienced enough to do the latter, mature enough to know which to do and when. I indulged in a little sport with someone who seemed to have it coming. I wont lie, I'll probably do it again. 
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Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 1:24pm
What alternate reality do you live in? Right after my post with the pictures in it Chilly posted a sarcastic comment right away... So don't make it out like I was looking for trouble... Then.. to heap it on me some more... You started helping throw stones too! LoL.. what a bizarre point of view you have. Chilly started out disrespecting me and my post... Then acting like his opinion makes him the premiere AMC engine builder in the whole world. Then you helped him even further by also attacking the modification... and indirectly the person who did the modification to my intake... Which low and behold was Rick Jones... and now here you sit acting like he's been a choir boy? Bahaha.... You must be joking questioning why people are defending the work that Rick did for me! LoL... Apparently you don't understand cause and effect. The reason this whole thread went South I because of you two guys! Duh....
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Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 3:17pm
| Posted some scotch brite sampling information in the off-topic area if anyone is interested to see what it looks like up close. In the off-topic area since its not called out in the AMC parts book, and has no place inside of an engine. Figured to keep this section free of any such distractions. |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 3:59pm
Best not start anything........ it's not a "sport" and no one really has it coming. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 4:03pm
I've pulled rusty steel wool out, and it comes out in shreds.... - remember, there's condensation in there - and in some, a lot of it. Steel wool will rust. When you can get copper pads or stainless steel pads or for that matter, almost any sort of cleaning pad or other materials, at walmart, skip the steel. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 4:28pm
Chilly started out absolutely fine - then perhaps had a beer or six and it went downhill from there. Best bet would have been to let other parties carry on since he said his piece nicely and moved on. He started great. He said his piece, pretty well. Not much could be added, really, so maybe, as the old saying goes - sometimes the best response is no response, or, sometimes the best course of action is no action? Be bigger and don't get in the last word. (easier to say than do, trust me) As far as me - nope, it was never about me. I don't have really strong feelings about the material (because I've seen it used over the years) - I was simply throwing my info in there to show a point - people get all heated up about how many years, how many engines, the value of same and so on...... often to show they know more or their opinion or answer is worth more. (it's not just Chilly, he got caught up in the same trap so I ain't picking on him) I just tossed my info in there to show many of us have great experiences and years of experience and even winning experiences and when we start throwing that in there, like Steve/ambo390 or whatever, he comes in "too busy doing hundreds of quality engines....." good grief. So what? I can match or beat that - doesn't really mean a thing. That's not going to make any answer from him any more valid - even though it does get back to this comparing whatevers thing. I was simply making a point - hey, wanna compare experiences, since that is what it seemed to be all about in the recent posts - who builds the most, who has done it the longest, and who builds the most expensive?! Really? So I jumped it trying to show how hey, anyone can do that, even me - so what? (but maybe on second thought, maybe chilly HAS done engines more expensive than my house? Hmmm. An AMC engine that costs more than, say, 42 brand new 1977 AMXs?) The chill dude has a point if one steps back and takes a breath - why use material A when there are other options, most with NO question as to any "side issues". On the other hand, I've seen it done many times for decades with no ill effects, even on engines driven fairly regular and beat on now and then. Of course, like the rule about ravens, just because every raven I've ever seen is black doesn't mean ALL ravens are black, just because I, or some others, haven't seen problems, doesn't mean it can't happen. My point is - this exploded over something very simple. If there's any doubt and you can for fifty cents get a totally safe, inert material, why not? Why fuss over it. For others, hey, if it works, whatever, seen it, probably have even done it in years past. If I had it in a current intake I'd not run out and remove it. I'll bet more than three or four members have built engines and used those pads as "filters" in the intake. That doesn't mean I'd make that my first choice since some folks can point to potential risks (leave it at that - potential risk should be enough to cause most minds to give things more thought.) I now keep so many different filter materials on hand, copper, stainless, non-abrasive pads, all sorts of things. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 5:15pm
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So in this big-dic4 contest I volunteer for accepting a sliver, maybe bronze medal we can all be friends again? I wont go lower than bronze. And no, I'm not posting photographic evidence.
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Posted By: Buzzman72
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 6:54pm
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None of these guys used to post here as Forest (with one "r"), did they? ------------- Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects. |
Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 8:48pm
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Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 10:00pm
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Back on topic, Correct me if wrong, but I don't see a filter in the parts list and have never seen one on a first rebuild. By design, filters are a maintenance part that require changing. This one would be difficult, to say the least to change. IF you do rigorous oil changes I see no problems with a filter (not getting into filter medium type) like this getting clogged. IF this was a neglected driver with many miles, this filter could potentially be a problem. Clogged with carbon deposits from ring blow by and/or oxidized oil deposits. I remove them if I find one. A baffle with no filter works, my experience. Oil vapor and lighter particulate go through the PCV, through the intake, and discharged with combustion gasses. What exactly is the problem with the original design on a well maintained engine? Or the other way of looking at this, what are we trying to fix? Does this filter increase measurable performance? Just curious on the facts/experience please.
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Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Date Posted: Apr/16/2019 at 11:58pm
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After thinking about the original posters question and reading through the 9 pages I have come to the conclusion that if I needed a filter I would use a sintered bronze plate. I think this might be the best overall material to use. http://amespore.com/en/find-out-your-amespore-filter/bronze-plate-filters/" rel="nofollow - http://amespore.com/en/find-out-your-amespore-filter/bronze-plate-filters/ Tom |
Posted By: JERSEYJOE
Date Posted: May/05/2019 at 5:41pm
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As far as the rivets go someone mentioned that Fastenal has the drive screws. Does anyone know the size and or the part number? ------------- 1985 J-20 PLOW TRUCK 1977 CJ 7 360 T-18 D 300 1970 AMX ex-SCCA car SPEED COSTS MONEY HOW FAST DO YOU WANT TO GO? |
Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: May/05/2019 at 7:01pm
| I think they were the #8 size but dont have any more to measure. I bought a pack of three different sizes from ebay. Steel, not aluminum. Maybe 10 or 12 of each size. Maybe use drill bits to check hole size and compare to the chart posted previously. |
Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: May/05/2019 at 11:39pm
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Well shucks, the particular size I'm unable to find in the Parts Manual... They appear to have came with the manifold with the baffle already attached from AMC... 
And this was from McMaster Carr 20 some years ago...  -------------  Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video |
Posted By: tom999q
Date Posted: May/06/2019 at 1:33pm
| Well ChillyB sent me all three sizes and I'm sure glad he did because as I was drilling the old rivets out, the holes got bigger. As a result, the original size didn't fit anymore, but the larger of the three sizes did. So in the end, JerseyJoe, if you're prepping a used manifold then it might be better to get all three sizes just to be on the safe side.. |
Posted By: NVCJ5
Date Posted: May/07/2019 at 9:41pm
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I may have missed something during the big fight but did the OP ever take it back apart and install the baffle? Looking everywhere for one of those, I'll pay good money if you have it and want to sell it (or anybody else that has one) |
Posted By: tom999q
Date Posted: May/07/2019 at 11:25pm
Yes, I ground the old rivets out of the old manifold and riveted the baffle to the new manifold with the new rivets. After all the hub-bub, I didn't put any kind of filter into the baffle because it didn't have one on the old manifold i took it off of (unless it disentegrated into the engine, haha)
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Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: May/08/2019 at 5:58am
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I think the factory sheet metal served as a PCV baffle, and also shielded the exhaust-hot EGR passages from a direct soaking of oil. If you end up needing to make a baffle I think it can be much smaller IF using a non-EGR intake manifold. I dont know what would be the effect of uncovered EGR passages. Maybe it would generate some extra crankcase fumes/smoke? Maybe that would dirty up the carb and intake? I'm sure someone has done it.
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Posted By: 401MATCOUPE
Date Posted: May/08/2019 at 6:19am
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Keep in mind the factory metal valley pan was used from DAY 1 of the Gen 2 engine in 1966.....there was no thoughts of EGR then. ------------- Ross K. Peterson 68X,GoPac,343,AT,52A(1stCar) 68X,GoPac,390,4sp,52A 69X,GoPac,390,4sp,64A 70X,GoPac,390,4sp,87A,8 70X,GoPac,390,4sp,BBO,8 70 Jav SST,390,AT,BSO 74MatX,401,AT,Prototype 74MatX,401,AT |
Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: May/08/2019 at 6:48am
| Talking about the tin cover riveted to bottom of manifold, not the valley pan. |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: May/08/2019 at 8:56am
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Pcv baffle was used from day one also. It shields the heat crossover from coking the oil also. It's main purpose is as an air/oil separator. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: NVCJ5
Date Posted: May/08/2019 at 9:07am
Rats! tom999q I needed that baffle  Guys get aftermarket manifolds and move over the baffle as directed then sell the baffleless boat anchor to people like me on ebay |
Posted By: ChillyB
Date Posted: May/08/2019 at 10:14am
| Good call. Wasnt thinking of the crossover. |
Posted By: tom999q
Date Posted: May/08/2019 at 11:12am
Well I don't think it would be too hard to make a baffle, it was just pressed sheetmetal.. 
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