AMC 327 head numbers
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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=98661
Printed Date: Apr/18/2024 at 1:52am
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Topic: AMC 327 head numbers
Posted By: vetteson
Subject: AMC 327 head numbers
Date Posted: Feb/20/2019 at 4:03pm
| I recently purchased a '57 Rambler that has a later AMC 327. I am trying to determine the year of the engine. I was told that it is a '65 Ambassador engine. I can find no numbers on the block but the head numbers are both 3169513-1. Any help with these would be appreciated. |
Replies:
Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Feb/20/2019 at 4:36pm
| what I do know is 1963-68 will fit the 1957. The 1957-62 engines will not fit in the 1963 up cars. I also know the early oil pans will not fit the later cars.... I would also guess the heads have the year cast into them?... Does the engine run ok? If it does...Id run it. What is the distributor #? In later cars the Distributor # were Different for various reasons. |
Posted By: Buzzman72
Date Posted: Feb/20/2019 at 6:50pm
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I know the '63-'66 (and thru '68 in Jeep) blocks had provisions for side engine mounts. The '56-'62 blocks used a front engine mount instead of the "Tri-Poised" side mounts. ------------- Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects. |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Feb/21/2019 at 7:18am
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The only verified 327 head casting number I have is 3146596, which is a 63-66 number. That doesn't mean all 63-66 used that number, there may be more. I found 3180915 as a verified (NHRA documents) 1966 287/327 head casting number also. As far as I can determine, all the 287/327 heads are the same. The 250 might have smaller ports or valves, but I'm reasonably sure it used the same head as the 287/327 also. All the specs, including valve timing, are the same. None of the TSMs list valve size though, would have to check a parts book, but since the 250 used mechanical lifters it may have used a different valve (different valve end?). I don't think it would matter though -- the adjuster was on the rocker arm.
------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: mramc
Date Posted: Feb/22/2019 at 5:26pm
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I'm working on a Gen One list of casting/part numbers. The heads I can confirm are 1963 to 1966 287 V-8 heads from a couple lists I have. So a 1965 Ambassador engine could be what you have. There is a lip on the back of the block by the distributor and it should have a letter code relating to which engine it is. For a 327 it should be an "E" into the drivers side of the block lip near the distributor. The later engine could been installed into the 1957 Rebel with mix and match parts from a latter 327, with out too much of a problem. I also have another casting number 315 2930 with a note that they were used in a Jeep, with a 287 ? Not sure I heard of any thing but a 327 V-8 being used in Jeeps of that period. A 287 V-8 should have a G instead E for the 327. F was suppose to be used for a 327 V-8 4 barrel . Not that the parts can not be mixed and matched as there is not that great a difference on any of the Gen One AMC V-8s. The difference in displacement is due a different crank/ stoke. Per say there were no other basic changes and the parts all pretty much interchange. LRDaum ------------- LRDaum |
Posted By: vetteson
Date Posted: Feb/23/2019 at 11:32am
The engine is clearly a 327, the bore is 4 inches and the /4"/ mark is clearly marked on the back of the block. If what I have is 287 heads, that's ok because they are the same as the 327 (?). I believe compression was not affected, compression was set by piston height. (?)
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mramc wrote:Posted By: mramc
Date Posted: Feb/23/2019 at 11:51am
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Yes, every thing is interchangeable. There no difference between 287 and 327 heads that I'm aware of. The only oddity is the are 1966 heads listed with air injection. Probably for California emissions. The 250 engine was made about 5 or 6 years, and frankly are pretty rare. The 287 was made only from 1963 to 1966 but , they were built in some volume, so are reasonably common. AMC had a history of using the same heads on the mid displacement engine 287/343/360 as on the bigger 327/390/401 engines. Only the smaller engine got smaller valve heads as a general rule.AMC did not really make a lot of changes and the back room NASCAR program went nowhere. The 327 era heads under perform in head flow for a number of reasons. I've only known hand full of people that could get the early 327 to really perform.But several of them are on this forum. LRDaum ------------- LRDaum |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Feb/25/2019 at 9:15am
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My experience has been the same as Larry's... and I will be the first to admit that Larry has much more experience than I do! I can verify everything he's said, if a second opinion helps. Compression was set by the piston, usually in the dish size, but could be a pin height difference as well/instead, I haven't closely compared the low and high compression 327 pistons. One reason 327 heads aren't the best for high performance is due to the size and shape of the ports. The valve angles mean the ports have a near 90 degree bend right above the intake valve, the exhaust has an even tighter bend, a tight 90 degree and a bit pinched at the bend. Can't make it much bigger without hitting water jackets. But it wasn't designed to be a high rpm performance head! It performs exceptionally well up to at least 4000 rpm, and doesn't start to be restrictive until around 5000. Perfectly suitable for even a "pretty warm" street car. Those deficits were alleviated in the new, lighter Gen2 V-8 (290-390), and further perfected in the Gen3 (304-401). ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: mramc
Date Posted: Feb/26/2019 at 4:12pm
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Just a little more on the gen one AMC V-8 engine, the block have either the stroke on the bell housing lip or a letter code for the engine displacement depending on when the engine was built , ei the year it was cast and assembled. There should be a tag on the alternator / generator bracket on the front of the engine that gives a build day code for the date the engine was assembled. Easily changed or lost. As Frank said the gen one AMC V-8 is almost more of truck engine then a car engine. Very strong, takes awhile to get up to speed, but will stay there and run all day and most of the night. It's high torque engine but unfortunately not a real high horse power engine. You want a better camshaft you have to have a cam reground for it. There are almost no high performance parts for this engine. I've seen one after market aluminum intake for it in 45 years. It's challenge to make this engine performance well but it can be done. LRDaum ------------- LRDaum |
Posted By: edwinjperez
Date Posted: Sep/28/2019 at 1:42am
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I purchased a 1984 Jeep Scrambler with a AMC 327. Casting number 3158242 and the engine still has the completion date stamp on it, 9-25-1957. Very cool piece of history...and it runs great. I'm curious what it came out of.... below is a link to picture of the engine: http://s346.photobucket.com/user/ejperez1977/story |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/28/2019 at 9:04am
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Unfortunately there is no way to tell what it came out of. My best guess would be either a Nash Ambassador or a Hudson Hornet, as there were only 1500 Rambler Rebels made in 57. Of course it could have come from a wrecked/rusted/trashed Rebel...
------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Sep/28/2019 at 12:30pm
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Dear Sir, with all respect to your original question: First of all, the later sixties style block would need to have it's earlier fifties style engine mount bosses drilled and tapped in order to install it into an earlier car. SO, the later engine would still have it's original 'Tri-Poised' engine mount bosses intact, as all later (after '62) Rambler V8s had relocated engine mounts -moved from the front sides, to the middle sides, when American Motors became the first US automaker to use a three point engine and transmission mounting system. I don't have a list of part numbers ~but~ this question is important because American Motors made at least four significantly different head castings for this engine. The first head casting, which came on the '56 250 CID engine is a 'closed chamber' head having a much smaller combustion chamber in order to make more compression with the smaller displacement engine bore size. Pictures of this casting, with it's smaller combustion chamber size is shown in the 1956 article named "The New American Motors V8" as it was presented to Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) The second head casting American Motors made for this engine was for the '57 327 CID engine. This head has a larger recessed area around the spark plug to reduce compression which would otherwise be too high because the increased cylinder volume created by the 327's four inch bore size. (moreover, and I don't know this year by year detail exactly, but I think both of these early/mid-fifties heads can be externally identified by noticing there are no 'round bosses' cast onto the otherwise semi-flat surfaces between the spark plugs... these look 'plain and smooth' in between the spark plugs, looking at the heads from the outside of the engine) Here is a '62 Gray Marine head taken off a 3.5" bore 250 CID block:  Yellow circle, inside -appears to contain all numbers, including date 'clock' Orange circles -later heads all have larger 'coin' shaped bosses, these don't, only smaller one in center Red circles -'66 and '67 heads have air injection bosses here, all earlier heads don't, but are smooth Green circle -Later mid-sixties heads have a 'coin' shaped boss here, earlier heads are 'smooth' (like this) Purple circle -Later mid-sixties heads have this void/corner filled with iron Hence, the 250 head has the smallest combustion chamber cc volume, the 287 head has the middle cc combustion chamber volume, and the 327 heads have the largest cc combustion chamber volume of all the heads American Motors made for this engine. Hence, as clearly stated in the SAE article, the engine was designed with 'cast chambers' so the designers could easily change the combustion chamber volume for the expected future displacement changes, and they did; for the 250, 287 and 327 engines. (only 2bbl 327 engines came with reduced compression height pistons to drop compression to 8.5 from 4bbl 327's 9.7 mechanical compression ratio) Extensively reworked '64 327 Rambler V8 combustion chamber getting cc volume inspection:  The fourth head casting American Motors made for Rambler V8 is the one/two year only '66 air injection head, which was specifically made to obey a new California emission control law. As far as I know, only cars that were made for sale in California came equipped with the all new air injection pollution control system on this engine. All other American Motors (and '66 & '67 Kaiser Corp. Jeeps that came with 327) cars came with the air injection heads ...but no air injection system installed on the vehicle. This is perhaps the worst head to choose for any higher performance built engine because the air injection bungs (aka 'bosses') protrude inside the exhaust ports and choke the exhaust flow. -The air injection bosses protrude into an area of the exhaust port where there is otherwise a high velocity section of the port. -The air injection bosses can be removed by an experienced Rambler V8 head porting worker but it is a tedious therefore difficult task ...and tricky not to 'break through' next to the air injection boss, into the water jacket which basically ruins the head because it's very difficult to make a braze repair on the short side/inside curve of the exhaust port. -This I say, based on my own personal experience, not hearsay. The fourth head casting is easily discerned by seeing the air injection blobs sitting on top of the exhaust ports, looking at the outside of the heads (very easy to see, once one knows what to look for) Again, no; I don't have the casting numbers of these heads. But yes; there are significant differences among the four basic variations that I know of. Putting spotlight on American Motor's Rambler V8 head design, when one does the research they find and learn Rambler V8 cylinder heads are very similar several other conventional US V8 cylinder heads made during the same era (Cadillac V8, Studebaker V8, Packard V8 and Pontiac V8) Of these, Rambler V8 heads are most similar to Cadillac's '49-'62 V8 cylinder head design. Pic of '58 Cadillac 390 heads:   The Rambler V8 exhaust ports may be better understood or conceptualized by imagining them as three individual sections: The first; valve pocket with horizontal rectangle exit. Second; transition zone from horizontal to vertical exit shape. Third; final 'hot roof' vertical portion of the exhaust tract. While there can be much discussion describing why each section is made this way, the numerical dimensions prove there is a well executed gradual taper from the valve pocket to exit, proving they are not as 'horrific' as was previously thought. All elements of the intake ports, combustion chamber and exhaust port shapes show significant, deliberate swirl flow design. Unbeknownst to vast majority of Chevy lovers, the redesigned SBC 'Vortec' cylinder head combustion chambers (to make more power using less fuel) show an otherwise obvious similarity to the swirl flow Rambler V8 combustion chamber shape. See also, 'LT1 combustion chamber' Showing XRV8 RP custom race prepped, extensively ported, big valve Rambler V8 heads for 443 CID XRV8 race engine:  443 CID Rambler V8 race engine installed in to '73 Gremlin for max power to weight ratio:  ------------- 443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/ |
Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Sep/28/2019 at 4:06pm
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This head came off a '66 327 4bbl Marlin, but the same engine would have been available in the Classic, Rebel or Ambassador that year, so one would need to dig further into the same engine's other casting numbers to determine if they match the dates shown on the other engine castings -such as the date casting showing when the block was made.  More than a few things to notice here, so this makes a good visual example. Above -Notice the head has 'a little clock' in the upper left hand corner. Along with letter code, this tells you the date down to the hour when the head was cast. (this will match the similar 'clock' detail cast into the block... it won't be identical but the date should be close, when the heads are the correct matching pair for the engine block. On this head, the '5" next to the 'clock' shows the head was made in '65, for the '66 model year car (typical) So, on your heads, if the saying is true/what the PO told you, expect to see a '3', for 1964 -where the engine castings were made about six months earlier for the actual car or Jeep model year. In both pics; the green rings are where the air injection bosses were (but they've been removed on this head) the red rings are where the later sixties type heads have a 1/16" high round casting boss (which I removed for weight savings, but also because I like the smooth look there -like some of the earlier fifties type castings) Below -Notice the head's casting number location. pn# 3160215-2 Someone like Doug Galvin (Galvin's AMC Rambler Parts) can break this number down for you, by explaining how AMC did the parts numbers. ...something like this: 316 is the engine parts 'group' and 0215 is the individual part. ...not sure what the '-2' means. A 'real AMC parts man' would say the number like 'three sixteen, zero two, fifteen dash two'. A 'Mopar parts man' might say the AM pn# wrong like 'thirty one-sixty, two fifteen dash two'. -this would mean they don't know how to decode AMC part numbers. (Mopar numbers are coded differently, therefore 'called out' differently than AMC numbers)  Now Doug Galvin would reach for and open up another one of his giant parts books to look up the number. (He has a huge library of those giant books the AM parts guys used to use at the dealership) I'm fairly certain that he would have a book showing where this number belongs in a list of other numbers, and he could 'home in on it', narrow it down and show where the casting was made about six months before the VIN tells when the car was made. He'd make a great AMC car show judge. If you can show us pictures of the heads on your car we should be able to help you see if they are correct or not. If you can't post pictures here on AMC Forum, feel free to browse the link below and send pictures to me through Email. ------------- 443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/ |
Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Oct/05/2019 at 12:49am
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Here's some info for '65 Rambler V8 heads: These came out of a red '65 327 4bbl Marlin. Notice it appears that the heads were made approximately six months before the car was made -whereas Marlin was considered '65 1/2'   Below: All 4bbl 327 heads I've ever seen came stock with higher rate springs (springs w damper) and 'shorter' spring retainer for increased retainer to valve stem seal clearance.  Below: This is a Rambler swirl flow combustion chamber. (compare to SBC Vortec or LT1 chambers -both done to make more power using less fuel) All 2bbl and 4bbl 327 RV8 engines that I've seen came with this chamber variation where there is a 'ledge' along the spark plug side of the valve seats & the spark plug area itself is recessed approximately 1/16" deeper the slightly higher valve seat 'plateau' in the middle. The '56-'62 250 version chambers are obviously smaller appearing (the smallest cc volume, but still having the swirl flow shape) and the '63-'66 287 chambers plausibly have the spark plug area 'flush' with the valve seat area where there is no 'ledge' there along that side of the valve seats (this is the medium sized chamber, but I have only seen pictures of it, never first hand) Going by memory, I believe the 327 chamber below has a 38 cc volume? (but it could be 36?)  ------------- 443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/ |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Oct/07/2019 at 6:15am
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I only have two 327/287 head casting numbers. 3146596 listed as 63-66 327, and 3180915 listed as 66 287/327. That last one was probably listed that way because it was assumed the 287 and 327 heads were identical (like 360/390/401 heads) -- you're saying there is a casting change in the combustion chamber so that's not the case, there should be a different casting number for each displacement. Not sure which that last number would be for. Oh, I added the numbers of the heads you posted to my casting number list for those years for the 327. I know you've gone over these heads extensively, so don't be offended, but I have to ask just to make sure -- the numbers you show in your photos are the only numbers on the head? Your answer will be taken as fact, be assured of that, as you have several heads on hand and as already stated, have been over them extensively. The main reason I ask is they look suspiciously more like part numbers rather than casting numbers. I know some AMC parts have both. No numbers on the outside of the head anywhere? Most casting numbers are just seven digits, though I have four head casting numbers (one 87-90 258, three 87-96 AMC/Jeep 2.5L) that are three or four digits (the 2.5L are three digit). I didn't collect these numbers myself, but got them from various sources in books and on the internet, so there may be errors.
------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: vetteson
Date Posted: Oct/07/2019 at 9:16am
| Been a while since I checked my original post, interesting info on the AMC 327 and the '57 Rebel. I must clearly have '65 327 4-bbl heads. I have done little on the "Rambling Wreck" Rebel, but have found a starving fabricator to repair the floors. I have located all the parts to convert to a 3 sp OD. Now need to find ring/pinion for a +/- 3.5 Rear end ratio. Anyway, I have learned that the only way to identify an intact '57 Rebel 327 is to check the water pump; it should have "RR" stamped on it to account for the change of head height when they were shaved to produce the 9.5:1 CR. I did find an original '57 four barrel manifold (from a Hudson!) for $100! Now need to find a Carter 2593S. |
Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Oct/07/2019 at 9:54am
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Well thank you Farna, that was a very nice and polite comment in response to the rather aggressive chunk of info I posted here. Yes, those are the only numbers on those particular heads... not saying they are the only part numbers... I used to work in the parts department of my local AMC dealership in Houston, Tx. Some of the confusion is dispelled by a simple understanding of how to 'read' AMC part numbers: As briefly explained heretofore, the '316' portion of the number is 'the group' (in this case, Rambler V8) and the second four numbers are for the individual part or particular casting variation. Just for comparison, Mopar numbers are 'read' differently. For example if the part number is 1112233, the part man would say 'eleven twelve, two thirty three'. Learning how to read the part numbers makes them easier to remember for the 'parts department' employee... like if we hear someone say 'can you find 316-'0000' for me?' The other parts person will automatically know he's talking about engine parts (most of them castings) because of the 316 'group' number. ...said another way, the last four numbers in any AMC part number are typically 'read' as if they are only two numbers: like if the number is 3162435, the parts man will basically only need to remember 'twenty four' & 'thirty five' when he goes looking for the individual part amongst all the engine parts that are known to exist in the '316' engine parts group... ------------- 443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/ |
Posted By: mramc
Date Posted: Oct/07/2019 at 4:54pm
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Ok, here what I've got for Early AMC V-8 casting numbers. They are not mine, but done by some one else and I have idea how accurate they are : 1958 250/327 : 3152938 ; 1963-1966 (287) : 3169513 3152930 (Jeep) ; 1959 - 1966 (250/287/327) :3207349 ; 1959 - 1966 (327) :3145596 ; 1966 (327) 3206988 with A.I.R. 1966 (327) 3207349 with our A.I.R. Notes; Jeep used the AMC 327 V-8 from 1966 until 1969 . Jeep used left AMC V-8s just in time for AMC to buy Jeep in 1970 right after jeep switched to Buick 350 V-8. Also I'm assuming that A.I.R. is California emissions , as California started ahead of the rest of the USA. Not sure of any differences between AMC car heads and Jeep used heads but the old AMC V-8 racers tell me the earlier heads are better then the latter. Not usre of any changes in any of the heads per say. LRDaum ------------- LRDaum |
Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Oct/08/2019 at 8:23am
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Hmm... the person who gave the information... was their last name 'Frankenstein'? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With regard for the statement that 'the old heads are better than the later'... -This is a gross overstatement describing the 'one year only' 1966 air injection exhaust port design in order for those vehicles sold in California to meet the new California emission control laws. 1966 vehicles sold in any other state were not required to have air injection installed, but got the 'bad' heads anyway ...so basically all other cars and Jeeps sold in any other state made more toxic emissions due to the worsened exhaust port shape caused by the air injection bungs cast into the heads! (yes of course the '67 Jeep 327 Vigilante engine exception -yes it got the 'bad' heads too) -Where AMC History is a microcosm of the macrocosm, this particular example makes a good history lesson showing 'do-gooder' bureaucrats who did more harm than good. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is not to say the '66 air injection heads can't be ported. They can, but it's twice the work -better for most people to find an earlier head made prior to '66/7. ------------- 443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/ |
Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Aug/08/2020 at 9:12pm
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Ok... I found the type of head I was looking for -with the 'smooth' combustion chambers. (but I still don't know for sure about the 287 chambers -whether 'smooth' or 'have a lip' around the valves) These are desirable because there is no lip next to the valve seat, which improves flow through the valve seat area, but also for installing larger diameter valves. I found this picture on eBay seller listed them for Gray Marine 327 but the engine is a 250 (easy to see same engine has 3.5" bore size)  Notice there is no lip between the valve seat and the spark plug area. Rather the spark plug area is 'smooth' all the way from the spark plug to the valve seat. Does the spark plug area itself look like it has a different recessed shape? Maybe so, but can't tell for sure by this fuzzy pic... Notice the area where the pushrods go through the head -has no perpendicular ribs, but is one open long cavity This is not the same chamber shown in the "The New American Motors V8" SAE Papers... which shows an 'open chamber' 250 combustion chamber. Thanks AMC Forum for giving us this space to show and tell about our favorite AM products. ------------- 443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/ |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Aug/10/2020 at 12:21pm
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I wonder if Gray Marine did some head work and changed the chamber a bit??? I doubt it, but it's possible... ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: Rebel327
Date Posted: Aug/10/2020 at 8:02pm
Farna...no . Nothing
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