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199 ci questions

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC 6 Cylinder Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made I-6 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=98434
Printed Date: Apr/23/2024 at 3:37pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 199 ci questions
Posted By: AmrcnBadaz
Subject: 199 ci questions
Date Posted: Feb/05/2019 at 6:06am
I have been working on dad's 68 American again. I have run across an odd couple of situations, and am looking for input from people more versed on AMC than I.

When started, it is silent. Life is good. As it warms up, it develops a ticking sound. Similar to a lifter tick, but not exactly. Shut it off for a minute, start it up.... same thing, silent for a minute, than makes noise again.


When it shuts off, I can hear oil draining back down into the crankcase. So, I thought I had good oil flow. I am not familiar with the 199, so I pulled the valve cover to see how the rocker system was set up. Found that they are on a shaft, so no real adjustment. Decided to start it with no valve cover.... Expected at least some oil splashing, but there was none. Shouldn't there be some coming through the push-rods to lube the valvetrain? Also, at this point things were sounding the same.... until there was a loud clunking sound. Happened maybe 3-4 times in a row. Shut it off thinking the bottom end was about to get a new kitchen window. Put the valve cover back on, started it up, silence for several seconds, then the ticking returned.

I have had a stethoscope on everything, and cannot find the noise that way. The only noise transfer I am getting is through vacuum pump on top of the new fuel pump.


I know this is long winded, but I want to give the AMC guru's here as much info as I can.

Thanks in advance!!!!!!



Replies:
Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Feb/05/2019 at 10:08am
http://www.mattsoldcars.com/RestoreAmerican/boltmod.shtml" rel="nofollow - http://www.mattsoldcars.com/RestoreAmerican/boltmod.shtml

The head bolt mod might fix it but on my donor engine it had been tried before. As I recall the oil path is around the outside of a cam bearing before it comes up through the head and then through a rocker shaft pedestal. On my engine that groove around the cam bearing wasn't cut deep enough and I ended up putting in an overhead oiler line through the side of the valve cover and into the pedestal. 


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Feb/05/2019 at 10:33am
If you remove the distributor you can turn the oil pump with a long screw driver or bit and drill to see if oil is getting to the top. Once you get it fixed it is easy to check for flow by removing the oil cap and looking for oil at the front rockers.


Posted By: AmrcnBadaz
Date Posted: Feb/05/2019 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by vinny vinny wrote:

If you remove the distributor you can turn the oil pump with a long screw driver or bit and drill to see if oil is getting to the top. Once you get it fixed it is easy to check for flow by removing the oil cap and looking for oil at the front rockers.


I will be doing the bolt mod for sure. Thanks for that info. Now, I am guessing you have to have the bolt machined all the way around, and not just "flatten" one side of it? Either way, nothing a little time with a grinder and a wire wheel can't take care of.


When checking it over, I had it running with no valve cover, and didn't see any oil moving anywhere up top. I wasn't sure what to expect. (chevy style with oil slinging everywhere, or mopar style with just oil trickling down the rockers)

Once again, thanks for pointing me in a good direction on this problem!!


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Feb/05/2019 at 8:29pm
If your rockers and shaft need replacing there is also the option of putting a head from a 4.0 L on it. I have not done that yet but others here on the forum have. 


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Feb/05/2019 at 10:32pm
#1: those earliest heads delivered oil to the top by excess clearance around one of the #4 cyl head bolts. there's a fix that's just grinding the shank of the bolt thinner to make more clearance, and digging as much crud out of the hole as you can with a peice of stiff wire.

switching to a new head is completely unnecessary to solve a minor oiling problem. and if the lack of oil has caused excess wear, a straightforward cylinder head rebuild will solve it permanently. also swapping any major part is rarely a simple drop-in; all sort of minor stuff will have to be accommodated.

#2: HA! i think you will appreciate this... your sporadic ticking is the FUEL PUMP and it's perfectly normal. you can only hear it on quiet engines!

here's how it works: the camshaft's fuel pump eccentric lifts and lowers the lever in the fuel pump. when the pump is moving a large-ish amount of gas, the lever works the diaphragm which moves the fuel, and the lever follows the eccentric.

but when little fuel is moving, eg. the carb bowl is full (as it is only a few seconds after startup) and the engine's idling (using nearly no fuel) the pump diaphragm doesn't lower back down onto the lever, so the lever is no longer riding on the eccentric -- it's a bit above it, so as the eccentric comes around again and again it slaps the tip of the lever and makes that scary ticking noise.

OK, with it ticking at idle, with your head under the hood rev the engine up a couple times, to use up a bit of fuel in the carb bowl. if you listen carefully, the ticking will be much reduced for a second, then return, as the pump pushes fuel into the carb. once it's full, it ticks.

t'ain't broke!



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Feb/05/2019 at 11:57pm
I just mentioned the 4.0 L head swap so all options are on the table. 

Let us know how that head bolt mod goes.

The engine I have that had a lot of problems came from a 67 American. I have a worn and clacking rocker set that got that way from it having been run without oil. The shaft is hard and I tried drilling through to be able to flip it over but even cobalt bits wouldn't do it. For parts try Galvin's.


Posted By: AmrcnBadaz
Date Posted: Feb/06/2019 at 4:53am
Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

#2: HA! i think you will appreciate this... your sporadic ticking is the FUEL PUMP and it's perfectly normal. you can only hear it on quiet engines!


I am NOT disagreeing with you, but this seems mighty loud to be that. You could very well be right, the noise level is around weak/collapsed lifter level.


Now lets say the pump is indeed the culprit, I am assuming I am just stuck with the noise? I did notice the pumps have a brass(?) contact that slides on the pump arm. I didn't give it any thought at the time but maybe that is what causes the noise when the carb is full as you mentioned?


It will be a couple weeks before I get back on it again (rotating swing shift) but I will be keeping everyone posted on how things go.


Thanks again!!!


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Feb/06/2019 at 8:42pm
well of course i can only guess from this great distance. compression and/or leakdown tests and the squirt of oil to check rings will reveal more. if its loud i'd too suspect stuck lifter etc. maybe i read more into 'quiet engine' etc.

vinny points out too that if it was driving long without topend oil lifter stuff could be badly worn. that's easy enough to take off, to pieces, examine lube and possibly replace. you can examine pushrod tips, roll the pushrods on something very flat (window glass or mirror) to check for bends, rocker fit on the shaft, gouging, etc. since the lifters are self-adjusting you can take it off and just put it back on. the torque spec is modest.

you can get good used or new rocker shafts for thr 199/232 i think (as vinny sez) if it comes to that. still lots of parts available for that motor!

is the clunk associated with a misfire?



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Feb/07/2019 at 12:20am
The Melling stock replacement lifters for the sixes tick a little at hot idle. All 12 lifters equally. It's not a load sound, just a soft mechanical rhythm. I'm not sure why the Melling lifters do this, but they do, and I've had them doing it for more than 100,000 combined miles on three different engines.

The shaft rocker engines don't have a lot of oil flowing around up there. They receive just enough oil and not much more. They're not like the later pedistal rocker engines that splatter oil all over inside. Still, there needs to be some oil. No oil usually means the hollow rocker shaft or the oil path leading to the rocker shaft has plugged up with sludge.


Every 40 year old engine with shaft-lubricated rocker arms needs to have the shaft and oil path cleaned out to prevent valvetrain damage from oil starvation.


-------------
1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited


Posted By: AmrcnBadaz
Date Posted: Feb/07/2019 at 3:30am
Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

is the clunk associated with a misfire?



Yes, when it made the clunking sound it started misfiring. (Bad enough that the engine stalled) Restarted 3-5 minutes later and it was silent and running smooth again. The lighter sounding tapping noise came back same as usual though, but it does not misfire with that noise.



Originally posted by FSJunkie FSJunkie wrote:

The Melling stock replacement lifters for the sixes tick a little at hot idle. All 12 lifters equally. It's not a load sound, just a soft mechanical rhythm. I'm not sure why the Melling lifters do this, but they do, and I've had them doing it for more than 100,000 combined miles on three different engines.

The shaft rocker engines don't have a lot of oil flowing around up there. They receive just enough oil and not much more. They're not like the later pedistal rocker engines that splatter oil all over inside. Still, there needs to be some oil. No oil usually means the hollow rocker shaft or the oil path leading to the rocker shaft has plugged up with sludge.


Every 40 year old engine with shaft-lubricated rocker arms needs to have the shaft and oil path cleaned out to prevent valvetrain damage from oil starvation.



This is an "alleged" fresh rebuild on the engine. It appears as such. Everything painted well, bolts are raw metal still, so it was at least painted while disassembled. I know nothing about the internals. But I think you may be on to something there.


I will be working on it again at the end of the month. I am going to see what I can find. And if possible take a video of it running. I will absolutely be doing the head bolt mod, and cleaning the rocker shaft passages.

I appreciate all of the input from everyone!!!   





Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Feb/07/2019 at 7:39am
If you look up camshaft bearings for a 232 you will see one with two holes. That one goes in the second to last position. The oil flow to that bearing comes up a bore from the oil gallery fed by the oil pump. The only way it can get to the top is by flowing around the center groove in the cam bearing and go out the other hole to a drilled hole in the block to the head. 

If the cam bearing doesn't have a deep enough groove or it is worn out or the holes don't line up with the drilled holes in the block then no oil to the top. 

If ever I had another of these apart I would take a Dremel and cut a groove in the block outside of the bearing from one hole to the next so oil could go around the outside of the bearing and get to the top.

The engine I worked on had a hint of a groove outside the bearing like someone thought that is what should be done but not deep enough for oil of any quantity to flow.  

If the head bolt mod is not successful there is the option of putting on an overhead oil line to it.

 


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Feb/08/2019 at 12:16am
Originally posted by AmrcnBadaz AmrcnBadaz wrote:

Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

is the clunk associated with a misfire?


Yes, when it made the clunking sound it started misfiring.

it may be that the clunk is caused by the misfire, and not vice versa (why i asked). i'd get this thing running and driving -- if it isn't, sounds liek you just got it on the road but fill us in -- then worry about klunks. exhaust systems tap on x-members, whatever.

the *misfire* is carb and/or ignition, almost certainly.

maybe back up, give us more global context here? how recent is this rebuild, in miles, and days/weeks? do you have run time on the engine? is it broken in? have you logged highway miles? or is the the first fire-up after rebuild?


-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Feb/08/2019 at 12:36am
if the engine was assembled with the wrong cam bearing, and that's starving the top end, all is not lost.

i finally recalled where the info is -- " rel="nofollow - " rel="nofollow - ">http://mattsoldcars.com . matt was a regular on the old AMC-list (which if feel this forum is an inheritor of/to). here's the top-end-oil fix page: http://www.mattsoldcars.com/RestoreAmerican/boltmod.shtml" rel="nofollow - http://www.mattsoldcars.com/RestoreAmerican/boltmod.shtml

i had, and i think still have, one of these modded bolts. it would not be that difficult to fabricate in a home shop, and seriously not a big deal at a paid-for shop. both the bolt AND the valve cover need to be modified.

unlike Matt I will try to describe it! lol

1) get an extra rocker shaft bolt and drill a hole down from the top, through the head into the shank. the hole depth is such that it the bottom of the hole is in line with the hollow rocker shaft.

2) a small cross-hole is drilled into the shank of the bolt. the hole is drilled in the part of the bolt that exists in the middle of the hollow rocker shaft. drill the hole through to the previously drilled longtitudinal hole.

3) the top hole (in the head) is counterbored to 3/16", about 1/4" down.

4) into this hole a short section, 3" or so? of "brake line" is installed. this is brazed in place.

5) drill a 3/8" hole "in the right place" on the valve cover. insert a rubber grommet into this hole, that has a 3/16" id. see below for "right place".

6) install all this junk and torque it down.

7) plumb a 3/16" brake line up from the main gallery (easy) up to the tube nbow sticking out of the valve cover; it gets joined to the plumbing with a slip-on compression ferule and nut.

each step is not that big a deal. i had one junk/core engine that had this setup.

it's easier than a second engine teardown.



THE RIGHT PLACE FOR THE HOLE:

you can either use heroically precise and arcane measurement to locate the hole; find the original AMC field service errata with the measurement...

...or my method for things like this, which is to install the new bolt temporarily without brazing the tubing; chop a section of tube, experimentally, until it *just* touches the inside of the valve cover when installed, take the cover out, put blue tape at the spot, put the valve cover on and wiggle it to make a mark.

another choice if you screw up is to cut a larger hole, like 1", and cut a 2" square of sheet metal, drill and grommet a hole in it, shape it to match the curve of the valve cover, attach the valve cover so the tube sticks out the large hole, place the 2" thing over it and sheet-metal screw it in the righrt location. you could probably conjure up a way to leave an inverted flare nut on the tube and make a two-piece cap, etc.




-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Feb/08/2019 at 12:39am
sheesh wtf -- i cannot seem to edit an error in the URL.

matts old cars is at

http://mattsoldcars.com" rel="nofollow - http://mattsoldcars.com



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Feb/08/2019 at 4:31am
When putting my engine back together and before bolting the head down I remember turning the oil pump and oil coming up through the block as it should. After the head was bolted down and the oil pump was turned oil did not make it up the pedestal to the rocker shaft, at which time I put in an overhead oil line. Probably the head should have been removed for further investigation like if there was a problem with the head gasket or what else it could be but I just carried on with the external line. I'll post pictures of how it was done but that may take a few days.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Feb/08/2019 at 6:44am
Check the spark plugs. A freshly rebuilt engine will burn a good bit of oil until it's broke in. If the plugs are really bad just go ahead and get new. Run it a couple hundred miles and check again, clean while you have them out. Might not be the problem, but it could just not be broken in good and making a little noise. I'd definitely do the head bolt mod regardless. Might not be absolutely necessary, as the engines ran originally just fine -- took a little time and neglect to sludge up a bit. Type of oil made a difference too -- I remember Quaker State and other Pennsylvania crude based oils used to sludge up more than others -- but not today. Oil formulations have changed drastically since the 60s!!


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Feb/09/2019 at 12:05am


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Feb/09/2019 at 12:25am
Another version of an overhead oiler. Figure it all out first before drilling any holes. 

Remove the valve cover and drill a 1/2" hole through it just above #5 spark plug, drill and tap a 1/4-28 hole into the oil cavity of the head, reinstall valve cover, discard the needle of the grease fitting shown in the picture, pretend that piece of pipe is only 2" long and hook it all together for the overhead oil line that tees into where the oil pressure sending unit goes. Then seal around the hole in the valve cover and good to go. As the line is quite short it is not nearly so visible as one going down through the top of the valve cover. Most of it is hidden behind the transmission filler tube, hence the curve in the brake line. 


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Feb/09/2019 at 5:44pm


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 10:09am
Your version (assuming you put it together...) is a little harder than the factory kit. Have to take yours apart carefully to remove the valve cover. Factory kit goes in from the top through a grommet, just have to take the fitting off the top and lift the valve cover off. But both work, that's the important part! And how often do you take the valve cover off? Shouldn't have to unless there is a major problem since the 199/232/258/4.0 uses hydraulic lifters (196 uses solid, except for the AL version).


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 10:37am
I remember the Ford Y blocks with those overhead lines and thought they were quite ugly and that is why I kept the line as low as possible. 

Yes it does take a little more work getting the cover off, longer to seal it up. If I ever take a head off one again I'll try and figure out what the problem is. I remember cleaning the head before putting it on, getting oil up the block, and was surprised when it din't make it up through the head. It could be as simple as a problem with the head gasket. Perhaps OP is having the same problem after his overhaul.




Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Feb/11/2019 at 6:03am
Probably the passage around that head bolt is sludged up. That's why the head bolt diameter is reduced slightly, to open it up for more oil flow. The better the flow the less likely it is to sludge up. today's oil is less likely to sludge than 1960s-70s oil also, but with the tighter tolerances used now there are still some issues with some vehicles, and they are more touchy to viscosity. Can't just throw in a bit thicker oil if it uses a little oil anymore due to small passages. I still remember when Chrysler started using small passages in their new V-6s in the late 80s/early 90s. 0W-30 and 5W-30 oil was being specified, but many oil change places mostly carried 10W-30 was their cheapest, and that's what many people went with due to cost and "that's what they always used".  Many an engine didn't last long! The Ford Triton would suffer the same fate, but people quickly learned to use the lighter oils. Even my 4.0L wouldn't mind running10W-40 or even 20W-50, though I wouldn't run the thick stuff since it's still relatively low mileage. Could get by with it in the middle of the hot summer though!


-------------
Frank Swygert



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