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304 on the dyno

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: http://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=98091
Printed Date: Nov/19/2019 at 10:34am


Topic: 304 on the dyno
Posted By: jcisworthy
Subject: 304 on the dyno
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 1:46pm
304 build on the dyno. 

3.800 bore, 3.44 stroke, 312 CID, 9.72 compression, ported iron heads with 1.84/1.5 valves, LS 1.7 ratio mini shaft rockers, Molnar rods, Racetec pistons, 5cc flat top two valve reliefs, .040 quench with 3.810 bore, .040 thick Cometic MLS gaskets, air gap intake, factory appearing deep oil pan, Doug's 1 7/8 headers, Quick fuel brawler 600 CFM mechanical secondary carb, billet MSD type ignition

Best pull, 381.8 TQ @ 3600, 363.3 HP @ 5500







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Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203



Replies:
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 1:49pm
More pictures, 




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Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 1:51pm
Wow! Now that is more than respectable!!!!!!!!!!! Good work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This 304 would be a lot of fun!!!!!!!!!!!!! 


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 2:01pm
Dyno video links

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3Ve6TdIOVc&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3Ve6TdIOVc&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz2ws6ElVUk&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz2ws6ElVUk&feature=youtu.be


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Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: JolleyGreenSST
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 2:14pm
Great job! My only questions are for such a low rpm range why the need for Molnar rods? And why again did the dyno run end at 5500rpm? 

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"God is good all the time and all the time God is good!"


Posted By: shootist
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 2:20pm
Now that is pretty impressive numbers for a little ole 304 AMC motor. 

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Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by JolleyGreenSST JolleyGreenSST wrote:

Great job! My only questions are for such a low rpm range why the need for Molnar rods? And why again did the dyno run end at 5500rpm? 

I use Molnar rods in everything. For a little extra money it does not make sense not to. 

It was starting to nose over so that is where he pulled it to. 

It will pull strong to 6K no problem


-------------
Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: EVF_Sportabout
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 4:35pm
What I can't get over is how high and flat that torque curve is it hits 350 @ about 2900 and just stays up there all the way through.  We had one pull where it hit 381.8 @ 3600 RPM.  Its going to be a fun driving Sportabout yes its going in a wagon!


Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 5:54pm
Sweet parts combination!
 That Air Gap was born to sit on a set of ported 304 heads like that,

 it sounds amazing on the dyno and ought to RIP in a Hornet Wagon!

Nicely done John Clap



edit,
couple questions,
did you leave the intake divider intact on this build?
did you happen try a pull with an open carb spacer?

That 600 Double pumper is probably the perfect match for this engine,
 just curious if it left any power on the table at the very top (especially if the full divider is intact).





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71 Javelin AMX P-code Go pac 360/4spd/3.91's
was Green/green now T/A red w/blk leather

88,89&98 Jeeps


Posted By: Buzzman72
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 6:26pm
After seeing these numbers, can we all stop telling newbies with a 304 to use it for a boat anchor and get a 360 instead?

Some of us love seeing what can be done with small cubic inch naturally aspirated engines.


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Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects.


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 6:37pm
Awesome.  And I have a 304 in a 79 AMX....Which I am keeping in the car.


Posted By: 72gremx401
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 6:40pm
And probably get decent MPG .while cruzin .


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 6:43pm
[QUOTE=jpnjim]
Sweet parts combination!
 That Air Gap was born to sit on a set of ported 304 heads like that,

 it sounds amazing on the dyno and ought to RIP in a Hornet Wagon!

Nicely done John Clap



edit,
couple questions,
did you leave the intake divider intact on this build?
did you happen try a pull with an open carb spacer?

That 600 Double pumper is probably the perfect match for this engine,
 just curious if it left any power on the table at the very top (especially if the full divider is intact).


Milled a notch in the air gap. Did not try a spacer. Quick fuel mechanical 600 brawler carb was very good out of the box. 






-------------
Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 6:50pm
I believe you called it on this one John. On the "304 Ported Heads" thread Dec. 15, you said "I am hoping for 350-375 horsepower with this combination." Looks like you made it.


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 7:14pm
Factory appearing oil pan I have been making for these engines holds 8 qts with an FL1A oil filter and Canton internal pickup 



 






-------------
Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: 232jav3sp
Date Posted: Jan/11/2019 at 8:04pm
Oh, how I want!!!!!! Well done, sir! 


Posted By: dbltrbl
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 1:47am
Originally posted by EVF_Sportabout EVF_Sportabout wrote:

What I can't get over is how high and flat that torque curve is it hits 350 @ about 2900 and just stays up there all the way through.  We had one pull where it hit 381.8 @ 3600 RPM.  Its going to be a fun driving Sportabout yes its going in a wagon!

Are you planning to use headers or freeflows?


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 6:41am
He is going to use shorty headers

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Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: mixed up
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 7:41am
those are impressive numbers  thats right there with any chevy small block in a lot of cases how much did it cost to make the combination it always the factor is why people build a 360 or go chevy

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69 amx 290 auto
65 220 290 4spd
80 ford fairmont


Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 7:54am
Well done.
I have a question on the 107 degree, my though's are going to 109 degrees would flatten the torque curve a little but put more HP on the table at a higher RPM. That little stroke engine should rev out to 8000 RPM with ease and not hurt bottom end much at all.
You have been in the 0.52x" lift on most of your builds so it looks like you found the sweet spot for a cast head AMC.
How are you picking your separation angles? Results are excellent!!! 


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 8:31am
That little cam is not an 8K cam by any means. I expected the power band to be where it is. 

In the car 6K is no problem but 8K is way out of its power band. This engine can rev will past 6K but why, it will not be making any power there so it does not make sense.

I chose the separation angles based on the small cubes. I wanted to help it on the low end and meet the customers needs which is a very user friendly street engine for his wife in the Hornet wagon. 

This engine meets those needs very well


-------------
Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: pfordamx
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 9:17am
did you test a bigger carb just out of curiosity? with the small engine and low rpm it probably didn't use all of the 600 but i'm just curious. and i'm also curious about the headers i would think a set of 1 5/8s would've provided a better torque curve and maybe more power. i know we went from a set of 1 5/8s hedmans to 1 7/8s supercomps many years ago. on 390 with the big summit cam lol and a torquer and it actually lost a little in the 1/4 mile. we dont have easy dyno access here in oklahoma. 


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 10:32am
I did not test any other carbs. Looking at the vacuum through the pull the engine likes the carb size. 

.5-1" of vacuum through the pull is a good carb size

I was told by David Vizard that 1 5/8 headers would probably pick up the torque by 20-25 and a touch on HP

I do not have a set of 1 5/8 headers ready for O2 sensors so I went with the 1 7/8 again


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Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: Boris Badanov
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 11:35am
A dream project is a 4" stroke crank in a 3.875 bore 304.

Very NICE build.

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Gremlin Dreams


Posted By: Jmerican
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 12:09pm
Dang I woulda sent you some small tube Jeep headers. Nice job. I knew it would be there, power wise. 




Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 12:50pm
Going to have to mini tub that grocery getter!



Posted By: DaemonForce
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 3:17pm
This has me wondering if I should rebuild my iron 304 or go looking for an aluminum 401 block and destroke that like I've been curious about for years. The 304 is a torque monster and while I don't have any numbers to reflect that, it's spooky on the street. Your 304's numbers reflect those power jumps fairly close and I don't know how I feel about that.


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1971 Javelin SST
American 304 2v | FMX | AM20-3.31

1983 American Limited
Jeep 4(.7)L S-MPFI | 1982 NWC T-5M (4.03/.76) | Dana30IFS/35-2.72


Posted By: WesternRed
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 4:48pm
Nice build, would be interesting to see what it would do with a bigger cam to support more RPM and how much HP it could make up there. Bucket loads or torque is perfect for the street though.

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I've finally given up drinking for good...........now I only drink for evil.


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 6:51pm
Thanks,
With a larger cam and 1 5/8 headers, I would be surprised if it didn't make 400 or more torque and HP. 

A cam and valve spring change could turn this engine into a 7K or more rpm engine no problem. There is plenty of piston to valve clearance where a pretty aggressive cam can be used and the engine has the parts and mods to that rpm without issues

More compression with a bigger cam would be better though


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Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: 232jav3sp
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by jcisworthy jcisworthy wrote:

Thanks,
With a larger cam and 1 5/8 headers, I would be surprised if it didn't make 400 or more torque and HP. 

A cam and valve spring change could turn this engine into a 7K or more rpm engine no problem. There is plenty of piston to valve clearance where a pretty aggressive cam can be used and the engine has the parts and mods to that rpm without issues

More compression with a bigger cam would be better though


I can dig that.

So... When are you going to build a 232/258?? Lol


Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 8:03pm
Yes, but your building for the customer, that I understand.
So as of today, the 304 is now the hot 360 and the 360 is the bolt on upgrade 401.
I find it exceptional that you have shared the details of your builds with the few AMC followers left.
I thank You.



Posted By: Mopar_guy
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by 232jav3sp 232jav3sp wrote:

I can dig that.

So... When are you going to build a 232/258?? Lol


When you pay him to build one! LOL I'm sure he would be happy to do so but he doesn't work for free. Wink


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" http://theamcforum.com/forum/hemilina_topic95889.html" rel="nofollow - Hemilina " My 1973, 5.7 Hemi powered Javelin


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/13/2019 at 7:34am
An engine like this does not come easy, it takes a lot of knowledge, time, money, good parts and precision work. The engines I build are blueprinted, with a lot induction work, attention to every detail, and an emphasis on making great power within the parameters given. 

I was told by a multi winning Engine Masters competitor that a good measure of an engine is the rpm range where the torque is within 10% of the peak torque. He said if it carries for 2K that is a good engine. 
This engine is within 10% from 2800 rpm's to the end of the pull which is excellent. This is a good little street engine. 


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Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: ADAM12MATADOR
Date Posted: Jan/13/2019 at 9:50am
Nice build. I actually have a Popular Hot Rodding Engine Challenge 401 that i need freshened up.


Posted By: EVF_Sportabout
Date Posted: Feb/04/2019 at 1:40am
I just want to thank John for all of his effort on this build. The dyno results speak for themselves.  He truly is THE AMC engine specialist!  He listened to me and used those conversations to build an engine based on what I needed it to do.  The cylinder head work and intake porting and experience custom grinding CAMs were indeed the magic sauce that made this little 304 special! He is a great honest guy that can really make red white and blue power! 


Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Feb/04/2019 at 9:05am
Originally posted by EVF_Sportabout EVF_Sportabout wrote:

I just want to thank John for all of his effort on this build. The dyno results speak for themselves.  He truly is THE AMC engine specialist!  He listened to me and used those conversations to build an engine based on what I needed it to do.  The cylinder head work and intake porting and experience custom grinding CAMs were indeed the magic sauce that made this little 304 special! He is a great honest guy that can really make red white and blue power! 
I agree with everything you said about John. We are lucky to have someone with his attention to detail and willingness to please his customers.


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Feb/04/2019 at 9:14am
Very kind words, thank you 

I am not going to lie, there is a customer or two where the communication was lacking and things did not go as well. 

Probably not a good thing to say about myself but I would be lying if I said things always work out perfectly. 

One thing I can say is, in every case a top notch product was delivered in the end. 


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Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: Greyhounds_AMX
Date Posted: Mar/06/2019 at 2:22pm
John, how much is a custom hydraulic flat tappet cam from Bullet? Just as a reference point for everyone.

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1968 AMX 390 w/T5


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Mar/06/2019 at 3:51pm
203 plus shipping for a typical American V8 iron flat tappet cam 

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Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Mar/06/2019 at 4:45pm
I cannot get an off the shelf cam for that price!
Just out of curiosity John, I plugged the 304 build into my obscure formulas;
I get your build for a 4200 RPM center, and this produces a maximum torque (cylinder pressure) at 22 degrees ATDC.
By no means knocking your work, I wish I had the knowledge, experience and TOOLS!
Your intake open and close match closely to my calculations for best cylinder charge.
My calculations bring me to reducing the duration of the exhaust by 4 degrees, showing it would pick up 4 ftlbs of torque and 6 to 8 HP. This is of course on paper and not the real world.
Would very much like to see how you came up with your custom grind!

 Are you calculating by peak cylinder pressure and fall off pressure number?
Am I also correct in that this is for an automatic transmission with a higher then stock stall converter?
   


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Mar/06/2019 at 5:58pm
This is an automatic 700R4 trans 354 gear, 26" tire and a mild converter application. 

With this cam I called Bullet to order and told him what I had for lobes and LSA, ICL then he recommended a slight change and I told him to go for it so he did. 

Typically, I order a cam with the lobes I want from the Bullet master lobe list. I choose LSA and ICL based on the customers desire for the engine then adjust compression for cylinder pressure. 

So far it has been working out well. 

Of course cylinder heads and intake play a large part also. 


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Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Mar/06/2019 at 8:21pm
Thanks
And rightly so, you cannot look at a single aspect but the entire combination of engine components, transmission, gearing, application, customers plans,  etc.
Likely people being the hardest part of the equation!
By the math I'm using:
Just for your interest, take it or leave it, from 2000 to 4500 RPM a 304 has the highest torque at 22° and a 401 at 24°.
The drop off power curve puts the exhaust open at 70° BBDC on a 304 and 68° BBDC on a 401 assuming your using the 111° separation angle and 107° ILC.
These numbers seem very static unless there is a drastic change. A torker intake vs a dual plain being a big one.  The torker likes lots more overlap by the numbers I'm using.
Look forward to your next build!


Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Mar/06/2019 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by Trader Trader wrote:

Thanks
And rightly so, you cannot look at a single aspect but the entire combination of engine components, transmission, gearing, application, customers plans,  etc.
Likely people being the hardest part of the equation!
By the math I'm using:
Just for your interest, take it or leave it, from 2000 to 4500 RPM a 304 has the highest torque at 22° and a 401 at 24°.
The drop off power curve puts the exhaust open at 70° BBDC on a 304 and 68° BBDC on a 401 assuming your using the 111° separation angle and 107° ILC.
These numbers seem very static unless there is a drastic change. A torker intake vs a dual plain being a big one.  The torker likes lots more overlap by the numbers I'm using.
Look forward to your next build!
I'm trying to understand this, but I need some help. When you say "the drop off power curve puts the exhaust open at 70* BBDC", etc., what does that mean if the exhaust opens before that or after that? Also, what do you mean by the 22 or 24 degree number for max torque between 2,000 and 4,500 rpm?

   What is the number for a 360 engine, if the 304 is 70 BBDC and the 401 is 68 BBDC? If the exhaust valve opens before this, do you lose some cylinder pressure and torque? If it opens too late, what happens, detonation? Thanks.


Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Mar/07/2019 at 5:42am
I will explain best I can as I don't have the excel knowledge to graph this.
The intake closing, cylinder diameter, stroke and cylinder velocity all contribute to charging the cylinder. There is a peak period for the intake to close to obtain the highest gas charge.
The timing and detonation of the charge at a set RPM will dictate the crankshaft angle with the most power to the crankshaft. This is a lot more like a spike then a curve compared to a valve opening curve.
As the spike starts down the cylinder pressure is dropping but there is a point that pressure vs calculated torque fall off very quickly.
Everything seems to be a compromise. In a perfect world, a low RPM engine will use all the available power. The higher up the RPM you set the goals.  Typically 3000 RPM to use 80% to 85% of the available power. This can be calculated to the exhaust valve opening point. This in turn sets your degrees of duration, overlap ...
So now you have numbers for intake open, close, exhaust open, close.
Type of valve train drive will dictate how aggressive you can make these points and also how much lift.
Then you can take your valve sizes, lift, head flow, intake flow, exhaust flow and calculate the charge and pressure to get a torque/HP number.

And no I have not calculated a 360 as it takes still over an hour to come up with one engine combination.
  
 


Posted By: austinsamx74
Date Posted: Mar/16/2019 at 8:55am
Did you use early 304 heads too get your compression or custom piston .Thanks just curious


Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Mar/16/2019 at 1:00pm
086 castings with a custom 5cc piston set at zero deck

3.8" bore with Cometic 3.810 bore .040 compressed MLS gaskets


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Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

https://www.rbjracing.com
Phone Number 518-915-3203


Posted By: BMOgremlin
Date Posted: Sep/03/2019 at 8:56pm
what all did you have to do to run the Ls1 rockers?


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Sep/03/2019 at 9:29pm
The advanced forum search function found this thread:

http://theamcforum.com/forum/ls-to-amc-rocker-conversion_topic58303_post525026.html?KW=rockers#525026" rel="nofollow - http://theamcforum.com/forum/ls-to-amc-rocker-conversion_topic58303_post525026.html?KW=rockers#525026


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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: mopar440cu
Date Posted: Sep/04/2019 at 7:03am
I just saw this post and all I can say is Amazing! I never knew you could get those numbers out of a 304! John is now building my 401 for another project and after reading this I cant wait until the final product. 

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This is America. What you believe is not the problem... What you believe I SHOULD BELIEVE is the problem!


Posted By: CHAR
Date Posted: Sep/04/2019 at 2:56pm
How much does ringing 363HP out of a 304 cost?  I wonder what the money and power deltas would be if you de-stroked a 360 and turned it into a Trasco style T/A screamer?

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72 Javelin SST P code 360/auto/A/C/ rear defrost option/white on blue


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Sep/04/2019 at 3:59pm
Traco 1968 AMC 305 was an overbored 290, and the 1969 was a de-stroked 360,
I think, or it was 1969 and 1970, point being there were 2 versions of AMC 305's
because of yearly changes to the Trans Am Rules.


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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: CHAR
Date Posted: Sep/04/2019 at 6:57pm
Something like that.  I thought I read Donahue's '71 big body T/A car was powered by a heavily modded 360 that got the cubes down to the new rules.  Still thats a lot of hurspurs out of the 304.  I wonder what the Ford guys did to upwards of 500-600 HP out of their Boss 302 blocks vs. how far you could squeeze the 304.

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72 Javelin SST P code 360/auto/A/C/ rear defrost option/white on blue


Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Date Posted: Sep/04/2019 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by CHAR CHAR wrote:

I wonder what the Ford guys did to upwards of 500-600 HP out of their Boss 302 blocks
The 69 Boss 302 heads had 2.25" intake valves and the 70 heads had 2.19" intake valves. Those Boss 302 engines ran really well above 7500 RPMS. They could have easily made another 100 HP if they hadn't had sewer pipes for runners. 

Tom


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1949 Ford Business Coupe
1969 AMC Rambler Rouge, Tube Chassis Race Car
1974 AMC Hornet Hatchback, Wally Booth Outlaw NPS Race Car Project
1980 Ford Fairmont Futura
1990 Ford F-350 Supercab Dually


Posted By: JolleyGreenSST
Date Posted: Sep/05/2019 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by Buzzman72 Buzzman72 wrote:

After seeing these numbers, can we all stop telling newbies with a 304 to use it for a boat anchor and get a 360 instead?

Some of us love seeing what can be done with small cubic inch naturally aspirated engines.

After re-reading this topic (it is worth going over again) as much as I love the results and the proof that the 304 is not a boat anchor... the difference between the 304/360 and other small blocks like the Ford 302/351, is that the bore is so small that the better flowing large valve heads will not fit like on the Ford. But other makes have the same concern like the Chevy 305 and Chrysler 318 are considered worrhless for serious power because of the small bores and restricted head choice... all of these engines are good and capable of making decent street power, it's  just when you try to make anything over 1-hp per cube that it gets pricier then building an equivalent 360/351/350. So for a performance build I would go with the extra cubes as a no brainer choice, same or less money and more power is a winning combination. The point is this AMC 304 wasn't a budget build. You can probably get the same power out of a 360 for quite a bit less. Under 300hp keep the 304, over that and get a 360 if you don't want to spend a small fortune. Imho.


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"God is good all the time and all the time God is good!"


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Sep/05/2019 at 10:30pm
Have to agree with JollyGreenSST...  the small bores are a limiting factor,
but for a "driver" and if a 304 complete core engine can be had for say $50-$100, hey, it'd be fun.
On the Camaro Research Group Forum in the Trans Am Camaros area, in the Traco Fans thread,
there are post by a period Traco employee, "PigPen", where he states Traco AMC 305's broke 500 HP.
Not that it means anything or is practical or applicable, just a piece of interesting history for reference.


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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: Jims69
Date Posted: Sep/07/2019 at 7:31pm
That’s a great combo. Nice work


Posted By: Buzzman72
Date Posted: Sep/07/2019 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by JolleyGreenSST JolleyGreenSST wrote:

Originally posted by Buzzman72 Buzzman72 wrote:

After seeing these numbers, can we all stop telling newbies with a 304 to use it for a boat anchor and get a 360 instead?

Some of us love seeing what can be done with small cubic inch naturally aspirated engines.

After re-reading this topic (it is worth going over again) as much as I love the results and the proof that the 304 is not a boat anchor... the difference between the 304/360 and other small blocks like the Ford 302/351, is that the bore is so small that the better flowing large valve heads will not fit like on the Ford. But other makes have the same concern like the Chevy 305 and Chrysler 318 are considered worrhless for serious power because of the small bores and restricted head choice... all of these engines are good and capable of making decent street power, it's  just when you try to make anything over 1-hp per cube that it gets pricier then building an equivalent 360/351/350. So for a performance build I would go with the extra cubes as a no brainer choice, same or less money and more power is a winning combination. The point is this AMC 304 wasn't a budget build. You can probably get the same power out of a 360 for quite a bit less. Under 300hp keep the 304, over that and get a 360 if you don't want to spend a small fortune. Imho.

Oh.

So it's all about the bore.

So you're saying it's not a boat anchor, but really it is in your eyes.

Gotcha.




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Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects.


Posted By: LakesideRamblin
Date Posted: Sep/07/2019 at 7:55pm
To each his own regarding our great AMC engines.  I think it is super cool what he did with HIS 304.  Bad@$$.  I hopped up my 360 in my 69 Rambler and I used old log style exhaust manifolds as I did not want to fool with headers given engine bay space limitations and other fiddling.  I love the way it runs and really don't care if others have a different opinion about it.

Rock on with that 304, John! 😎


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LakesideRamblin
69 Rambler 220 360
73 Javelin 360
"If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month." T. Roosevelt


Posted By: 232jav3sp
Date Posted: Sep/07/2019 at 9:45pm
Considering the most expensive parts were the custom pistons (compared to off the shelf Wisecos for 360ci) everything else that was done to this 304 is what gets done to a "serious" 360. You're just not going to get the horsepower because it's a smaller air pump with smaller valves. When you get down to brass tacks, that's about it.


Yes, you could make the same power for less with a 360 (stock enternals), but, if a 360 isn't available to you (like here in East Texas) a 304 has now been proven to be a viable option. After all, most seem to want a snappy, driveable, 400hp; that seems to be the most common 360 question asked, and this particular 304 is darn close to meeting the needs of many out there. Heck, put those pistons and rods in one, with a wider lsa cam, on heads with less work then this 304, and throw some spray at it. That's my take on my it, anyway.

Oh, and before someone comments on my not finding of a 360 in E. Tex, I've only searched Craigslist and have found very little AMCs in the area. I'm sure they are out there. I just don't know where to look.


Posted By: BMOgremlin
Date Posted: Sep/07/2019 at 9:56pm
I personally don't care if an amc car has a 400hp 304 or a stock 401. Our devotion to the brand is what matters to me. So as long its its amc when the hood pops up I'm in!


Posted By: BMOgremlin
Date Posted: Sep/08/2019 at 4:31pm
In a earlier post it has the cam card from bullet. Are the specs on the card configured using 1.6 or 1.7 rocker ratio?


Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Sep/08/2019 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by BMOgremlin BMOgremlin wrote:

In a earlier post it has the cam card from bullet. Are the specs on the card configured using 1.6 or 1.7 rocker ratio?
The cam card posted says .3091 lobe lift and .525 gross. That would make it 1.7 rockers at .525.


Posted By: EVF_Sportabout
Date Posted: Sep/09/2019 at 9:51pm
This build was not about maximum power it was about enough power to be fun to drive for me.  But John and I held ourselves back throughout the build because the car is my wife's.  So no wild quirks, no street drive ability issues it had to start easily and drive easily or she would not touch the car.  It has close to 1000 miles on it now and it is all those things.  It has been in the mid ninteys and it does not over heat or vapor lock.  The car handles stop and go traffic and cruising situations without giving the driver any of the hot rod drive ability issues.

The car can far more than keep up with traffic and has plenty of passing power in any situation.  Is it the fastest thing out there no.  Is it easy and fun to drive HECK YEAH!  Its already hitting 17 miles to the gallon as well.

Its going to drive to Kenosha next summer! Fun! not Hi Po problems. SmileTongueEmbarrassed 

Not every engine has to be a beast...


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1974 Hornet Sportabout


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Sep/09/2019 at 10:07pm
It's easy to make power with big cubes - but making power with a smaller engine is more of a challenge and more fun in some ways. 
The Jeep people get all worked up when someone goes into their forum and says they are going to spend a grand on a head, do this, do that - they get blasted by folks saying "why when you can drop a V8 into it cheaper".
So? Making more power with a 6 is something few do so it gets attention when you see these high HP, high torque smaller engines. You know some thinking went into it. More thinking than the average 401 out there. You can buy parts from a checklist and get power - do what everyone else is doing. 
Heck, that little engine is in the territory of my 360! 
Impressive for sure. Well over a HP per cube, with a 304.
That's just plain cool. 



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Posted By: Buzzman72
Date Posted: Sep/10/2019 at 5:47am
Originally posted by Sonic Silver Sonic Silver wrote:

Originally posted by BMOgremlin BMOgremlin wrote:

In a earlier post it has the cam card from bullet. Are the specs on the card configured using 1.6 or 1.7 rocker ratio?
The cam card posted says .3091 lobe lift and .525 gross. That would make it 1.7 rockers at .525.
 
LS rockers have a LOW ratio of 1.7:1.


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Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects.


Posted By: CHAR
Date Posted: Sep/10/2019 at 4:34pm
Could you guess if those headers would fit in a 2nd gen Javelin?  I have a set of 1 5/8's that are going to flow into a new set of 2 1/2" pipes.  Those on the dyno look much bigger.

Thx.


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72 Javelin SST P code 360/auto/A/C/ rear defrost option/white on blue



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