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196 Ring Change

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC 6 Cylinder Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made I-6 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=97832
Printed Date: Apr/23/2024 at 7:54am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 196 Ring Change
Posted By: RamblinMan63
Subject: 196 Ring Change
Date Posted: Dec/26/2018 at 12:30pm
Alright guys this ones been a long time coming.

In 2016 I drove my 63 Rambler wagon on a 300 mile trip to see my grandmother. Ive finally got down here once more to diagnose the 196 I6 in my rambler. Spark plugs 1-6 all had plenty carbon deposits which doesnt surprise me because this car has done lots of sitting. Spark plug for #5 had insufficient gap. Compression  test got me

Cyl. 1  150pds

Cyl. 2. 80

Cyl. 3 151

Cyl. 4 130

Cyl. 5 27

Cyl. 6 75

I poured some ATF into Cyl 5. Cranked it and re ran the compression test which gave me 220 pds AFTER ATF. Compression doubled in cyl 2 as well. 

So I know the engines tired and probably needs a rebuild but I cant really do that right now. I can however pull the head and oil pand and replace the offending rings. I suppose I should do the whole ring set and maybe the bearings too.

The original break down/symptom was sudden loss of power on the highway, the engine sorta moving back and for as if it was missing really bad and LOTS of blow by venting its way out of the oil filler neck. I have the TSM and I will be asking for clarification on this procedure. Not scared, this is a simple engine and Im sure I can do this.

It also appears that some of the push rods are loose and I can apin them around while others are tight

Thanks in advance!



Replies:
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/26/2018 at 12:44pm
Sounds like it might have a cracked head or blown head gasket -- and the pushrods definitely need adjusting.  Just re-ringing it will likely get you a few thousand more miles, hard to say. Depends on how much wear is in the bore. Regardless of what it has on top it will be 2-3 times that much near the bottom of the bore. The rings may be gunked up and just stuck, so replacing them and cleaning the pistons may help. You must cut the wear ring on top (if there is one) or you will break the new rings. The blow-by could be from the rings, could be from a blown head gasket. You'll have to pull the head and replace the gasket to do the rings, and adjust the valves when reassembling.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: RamblinMan63
Date Posted: Dec/26/2018 at 1:23pm
What makes you think the head might be cracked?

When all this happened it would still fire up and run. You could give it throttle and it would respond, even out a little

If the head is cracked there are four to five 59-62 195.6s for parts on the property i live on. IIRC  the heads only are interchangeable. Theres also a 327 2V V8 out of a "66 ambassador with the trans still attached to it.Smile

I already have a head gasket on hand from galvins. 

So if the head is cracked would it be really obvious? Where would it fail?

Could be gunk. Car did a LOT of sitting then I got it going and it got put in service as my daily. I will pull the heads 
and pan. Ill post pictures of it.



Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Dec/26/2018 at 3:27pm
I would make sure the carb is tuned properly and then add a can or two of something like Techron or Seafoam to the next few tanks of gas to dissolve the carbon in the tops of the cylinders and run it hard for a while.  Re-ringing an engine properly is a lot more work than you think and unless you are very careful you can get into a cycle of "might-as-well" and do other things while you are in there.  Check for water in the oil and oil in the coolant.  Drive it.  Joe

-------------
Happiness is making something out of nothing.


Posted By: ramblinrev
Date Posted: Dec/26/2018 at 5:10pm
I seriously doubt new rings will solve your problem. If ring seating is the issue (and your adding oil to the test might confirm that it is) that engine will almost certainly need cylinder bored, and oversized pistons and rings.
Good luck!


-------------
74 Hornet Hatchback X twins (since 1977)
62 American Convertible (still worth the $50 I spent in 1973!) AMCRC #513, AMO #384
70 AMX 360 4-speed (since 1981)


Posted By: RamblinMan63
Date Posted: Dec/26/2018 at 5:58pm
It would be necessary to hone the cylinder  wall as well. 

I just want to get it on its feet if I can and learn something. I do gave the TSM as well.

It did not loose any oil and there is/was not any water in the oil or oil in the coolant. Ill pull the head tonight. 


Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Dec/27/2018 at 12:40am
Adding oil to the cylinders during a compression test will always raise the test pressure because the oil takes up space and is non-compressible.

An engine with the compression ratio of a 196 should make less than 150 PSI of compression pressure. More than that is because something non-compressible is taking up space in the cylinder.

I think the rings are fine. More likely the valves or head gasket ae shot. Time to forget the compression tester. Put the suspect cylinder on TDC compression stroke and pressurize it with an air gun while listening for where the air escapes. Probably excapes out the exhaust past bad exhaust valves.


-------------
1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/27/2018 at 5:28am
The 195.6 OHV is notorious for cracking heads. Mainly because the head runs hot even with the engine in perfect condition. Typically people don't know that the head must be retorqued every 10-12K miles (TSM says every 8K, but newer gaskets seem to last longer -- I retorqued my daily driver every other year and put 5-7K a year on it -- for 14 years). The first sign of the head bolts working loose is the engine running hot. By now most have been run hot several times over their lifetime. Coupled with the age and just the mass of brittle cast iron they crack relatively easy -- much easier than you'd expect from a cast iron head. They usually crack around the exhaust valve, which is the hottest area (might be thinnest also). You will have to have it magnafluxed to check for cracks. They will be fine -- most likely too fine to see. They only open up just enough to suck a little water in when the engine is at operating temp. If they were big enough to see you'd be blowing coolant out as compression would leak into the water jacket.

I've had one with multiple cracks around the exhaust AND intake valves, all cylinders. It still ran fine -- until the cracks suddenly opened up. That engine had lost a little water (about a quart every 4-6 weeks) all along, I just never found a leak. I was living in Mtn. Home Idaho (AF base) at the time and just assumed it was evaporation from the desert. Was in my early 20s, and had never been in a dry climate before. Found out it was the head when it suddenly gave way on a long trip.  It was run hard enough on that trip (pulling a trailer, going back to SC from Mtn. Home) that the cracks opened up enough to leak compression into the water jacket and blow water out as soon as it got up to temp. After it cooled it idled just fine, ran for about 10 minutes on the highway before it started blowing water out the radiator. Expensive trip back home! I had run the car for three years in Idaho, taking a couple day long trips (Denver and Seattle) with no issues. It lost a little water all the time. Figured out it had cracks all along on that final trip. Replaced the head and drove it a few more years before rebuilding. And yes, the heads will interchange 56-65, except for the aluminum block head -- it's different.

Rings may help simply because the car sat up a long time and the rings may be stuck. If they don't flex they don't seal. That and it could have been run hot a few times over it's life, which could take the temper out of the rings.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Dec/27/2018 at 9:38am
When I took mine apart for the first time at 120k miles the top ring groove of the pistons had to be re-cut and a spacer added. The valves also needed to be re done and they used some kind of device to broach the valve guides before reaming back to standard. I suspect that timing by ear to just before hearing the ping might have contributed to the ring groove wear. 


Posted By: RamblinMan63
Date Posted: Dec/27/2018 at 10:42am
Ill run a cylinder leakdown test as I did not end up takind the head off yet FS. 

I will call around and see if any shops can magnaflux it when I pull it off. If it is cracked I have a large selection of long retired blocks the owner would gladly give me a head to get this wagon going again. 

Time to go borrow a cylinder leak down tester from o reillys!


Posted By: RamblinMan63
Date Posted: Dec/27/2018 at 11:29am
Theres a place here in roseville that will magnaflux it and hot tank it for $145. 

Farna mentioned it could be a blown head gasket. How will that show?
Theres definitely no water in the oil and I dont recall oil in the water. It couldve just gone? Im not sure. 


Posted By: RamblinMan63
Date Posted: Dec/27/2018 at 12:56pm
So Im on my way to rent a leak down tester and it occurred to me that maybe the head gasket failed between cyl 5 & 6 where compression was the lowest.

If the rings bad itll be obvious right? Id imagine the cylinder wall would be fairly marked up


Posted By: ramblinrev
Date Posted: Dec/27/2018 at 5:15pm
I think when you get the head off, you'll be able to see how the cylinders look. I've got a 196 that had terrible scoring in cylinder 4, and don't really know why. It had a burned valve too but not a blown head gasket.
Good luck and let us know!



-------------
74 Hornet Hatchback X twins (since 1977)
62 American Convertible (still worth the $50 I spent in 1973!) AMCRC #513, AMO #384
70 AMX 360 4-speed (since 1981)


Posted By: RamblinMan63
Date Posted: Dec/27/2018 at 8:35pm
The only option for a leak down tester here was from harbor freight and it didnt work out of the box. Grrr


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Dec/27/2018 at 10:27pm
as frank says, chronic head leaks are the major *symptom* of long term maintenance problems. when cars are parked for a long time there is always a reason it was parked...

if you don't have a torque wrench then carefully just check torque/tightness and see if they're "all the same". don't over tighten! you might very well find a few are simply loose, or very much looser than the others. even torque not maximum torque. 

the cylinders are cast as siamese pairs; 1-2, 3-4, 5-6. they're "8" shaped. the spacing between cels in a pair is very very close -- about 1/4" so when the head bolts loosen, leaks there are *very* common. so yes, this could be the source of poor compression.

(one way to use oil to do the leaky-ring test is to pull all the plugs, squirt a teaspoon of oil (couple pumps on an oil can), then crank the engine over -- with the plugs still out -- to distribute and fling out extra oil. THEN check each one at a time with the other plugs out. count three (or at least the same number) of compression strokes. release, do it again. if it's not the same, then find out what you're doing wrong and repeat the whole thing until the test is repeatable. if its' not repeatable its not meaningful.)

once the head gasket has leaked, its gotta be replaced. a retorque will temporarily fix or improve it, but if combustion gas or oil or coolant got under the gasket, it won't seal again.

if the engine compartment has/had rusty water flung all over the engine -- the telltale orange/brown color -- then I wouldn't bother doing anything but immediate remove and replace -- that is the CLASSIC sign of a cracked head and bad head gasket -- chronic overheating, the owner just kept adding water, it burped/steamed it all out, lather rinse repeat, engine damage. done and done. 

I've flat-out solved the head sealing thing. it's been 10 years since I've needed a retorque. the "trick" is no trick at all. after fixing all the bad stuff (cranks and WARPED head, gasket, etc) just solve the underlying problem -- either get a thermostat with a "jiggler" installed or simply drill a 1/8" ir 3/16" hole in the edge of the thermostat. I have details why elsewhere or ask. and then keep the cooling system is modern-day top-notch condition -- and not treat it like we all did in the 60s and 70s! lol.

spotlessly clean cooling system, no clogs, no rust, never ever EVER overheat it, antifreeze and change it every year or at most two. 

on all engines, something fails first. solve the head cooling on this engine and it will last a long time. otherwise they drop dead at 80,000 miles. it's a design from thew 1950's, it needs a lot more preventative maintenance than (1) we gave 'em then and (2) most people do now!

but once they've gone off the deep end these particular problems are not amenable to picking at.



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/28/2018 at 7:10am
Your leak down test will tell if the gasket is blown. Other than the engine running hot, two adjacent cylinders with the gasket blown between them will show about the same low compression, or both will leak down, since one leaks into the other. Even with a standard compression gauge instead of a leak-down tester compression should slowly go down if the rings and head gasket are good. If you're taking the head off for other things I wouldn't worry about the gasket though, since you're replacing anyway. The gasket can be blown on that motor and no oil or coolant lost, or very little... same as the head crack on mine.

And as noted, if it has micro cracks that only show up under magnafluxing you CAN still run that head, especially if it's a show car or weekend pleasure cruiser (and assuming it only loses a little water along like mine did). I drove mine daily for three years, and two day long trips (6-8 hours on the road). The move home, towing a trailer and driving for three long days (12-14 hours total, including stops), the first through a late season blizzard, just proved to be too much for it. Needed another day and a half to complete the trip, after a two day stay in Oklahoma deciding what to do (ended up renting a u-haul truck and dolly, my utility trailer loaded in back of truck). Normally took three days driving, but that blizzard through the Rockies took some time off as I could only go about 40-45 mph at best for 4-5 hours, and I-70 between Denver and St Louis was closed as the the blizzard got in front of me. Waited around at a truck stop 2-3 hours waiting to see if they were going to open it, then drove south into the upper part of Texas and started back east...


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: RamblinMan63
Date Posted: Dec/28/2018 at 1:05pm
I was not able to do a leak down test. The only one I could get my hands on here in roseville was a harbor freight tester that suffered infant mortality. 

Now that you mention it farna, the temp gauge always got into the hot zone when I was driving it. The radiator never boiled over and the cheap scate I bought it from assured me it was fine. I did re torque the head bolts soon after buying it. I thought maybe the temp sending unitwas bad. 


Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Dec/28/2018 at 1:29pm
A leak down tester just gives you a leakage % and tells you where it leaks from.

A shop air hose with a gun on the end and a fitting that will seal to the spark plug hole will tell you where it leaks from. Super cheap and easy.

-------------
1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited


Posted By: vintage60
Date Posted: Dec/30/2018 at 5:57am
one simple test for a cracked head, especially in an exhaust pocket to cooling system, is to run it and watch for air bubbles at the radiator filler. 


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/30/2018 at 12:52pm
You could have a faulty or incorrect temp sending unit. Try another  or a aftermarket gauge and sender.

I never had bubbles in the radiator when I had a cracked head, it just lost a little water over a long time. It was a daily driver that averaged about 7k a year, so a little over 600 miles a month. So it "used" a quart of water about every 800-900 miles. Of course if it has larger cracks you will get compression leaking into the radiator that will produce bubbles or just blow the coolant out. That last day when the micro cracks opened up it blew the coolant almost all out in about 10 minutes of driving -- shortly after the thermostat opened up.


-------------
Frank Swygert



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