360 on the dyno
Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=96292
Printed Date: Apr/19/2024 at 12:48am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 360 on the dyno
Posted By: jcisworthy
Subject: 360 on the dyno
Date Posted: Sep/12/2018 at 4:53pm
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433HP / 458TQ AMC 360 CID 10:1 Compression, pump gas, .030 over bore 365 CID street engine Air gap
intake Ported Iron
heads, 2.055/1.60 stainless 11/32 stem valves. Dual valve springs to match the
cam. 260 CFM at .550 lift Custom
ground Bullet Racing flat tappet hydraulic cam. 220/230 @ .050 duration, 112LSA
installed at 108*, .554/.566 lift with 1.7 rockers Rollmaster
Torrington bearing timing chain Billet MSD
style small cap distributor with 8mm wires and NGK plugs LS
adjustable 1.7 ratio mini shaft rocker system Wiseco .030
over ProTru forged pistons with Hastings rings Molnar
forged connecting rods Crankshaft
.010/.010 and balanced Custom
“stock appearing” deep oil pan with Canton pickup Internal oil mods
Video links https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHZKPpagsBY&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHZKPpagsBY&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqZF65nKGI8&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqZF65nKGI8&feature=youtu.be
------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Replies:
Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Sep/12/2018 at 5:08pm
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What carburetor? Not EFI by the AFR_R. Nice torque curve.
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Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Sep/12/2018 at 5:22pm
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Holley ultra hp 750. It is a little rich but not terrible. ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: Saz2686
Date Posted: Sep/12/2018 at 6:39pm
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Looking good. Ngk plug number please? ------------- Scott - 73 Javelin. 401 engine. T5Z trans. 3.54 posi |
Posted By: WesternRed
Date Posted: Sep/12/2018 at 7:08pm
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Not revving particularly hard to make that either. ------------- I've finally given up drinking for good...........now I only drink for evil. |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Sep/12/2018 at 7:19pm
Ill have to look. I think they are BKR5ES-11 ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Saz2686 wrote:Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Sep/13/2018 at 8:31am
| WOW! These are amazing numbers! NICE! |
Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: Sep/13/2018 at 9:19am
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Sweet !
------------- 70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972 |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Sep/13/2018 at 2:56pm
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Made a few more pulls. Basically the same numbers. Tried adding a 1/2" open spacer to lean it out and see what a spacer would do on a dual plane. It picked up a little hp, lost a little torque and leaned out the mixture to some better levels. Probably could take a jet or two out of the left side to even the air fuels out   ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: waltl
Date Posted: Sep/21/2018 at 8:19am
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Is the engine internally or externally balanced? Has a stock appearing, painted front damper is why I am asking. ------------- Walt L. |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Sep/21/2018 at 11:48am
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External balanced Walt ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Oct/05/2018 at 4:00am
I was looking at the power compared to the factory ratings. This 360 does very well in comparison   ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Oct/05/2018 at 4:10am
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Sorry, wrong dyno sheet in the last post ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Oct/05/2018 at 4:25am
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Factory 1970 360, 10.5 compression, peak HP 295 @ 4800, TQ 395 @ 3000, my 360 at 4800 made 408.4 HP and 398.3 TQ @ 3000 70 10.2 cr 390 with machine intake made peak HP of 340 @ 5K and 427 TQ @ 3600 My 360 made 422.7 HP @ 5K and 435.9 TQ @ 3600 1971 401 with 10.2 cr made 335 HP peak @ 5k, 435 TQ @ 3400 My 360 made 422.7 HP @ 5K and 430.8 TQ @ 3400 My 360 had a peak HP of 437.8 @ 5300 and peak TQ of 454.6 @ 4400
------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: dbomb
Date Posted: Nov/25/2018 at 11:58am
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hi nice engine nice numbers I'm wondering what the outcome would be with manifolds and 2 1/2 or 3 inch pipes. ------------- rebuiling 73 amx need parts |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Nov/25/2018 at 1:01pm
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Thanks, my guess is 20-25 hp drop. I never ran an engine with headers then manifolds so I do not know for sure. Just going by some testing I read in the past ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: dbomb
Date Posted: Nov/25/2018 at 2:21pm
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kool I have pretty much same engine except for cam. Just wondering what your cranking psi is ? ------------- rebuiling 73 amx need parts |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Nov/25/2018 at 5:29pm
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Sorry, I did not check it ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: Greyhounds_AMX
Date Posted: Nov/29/2018 at 12:08pm
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Do you have the cam card for the Bullet cam you used? I'd like to see that if possible. Thanks! ------------- 1968 AMX 390 w/T5 |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Nov/29/2018 at 2:21pm
Cam card ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: Greyhounds_AMX
Date Posted: Nov/29/2018 at 9:51pm
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Thanks for digging that out. Do you know why they picked that particular exhaust lobe? I didn't see that one on their 904 lobe list. ------------- 1968 AMX 390 w/T5 |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Nov/30/2018 at 4:02am
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I picked the lobes. They are both on the .904 lobe list http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/HClobes.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/HClobes.htm ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: AMX1972
Date Posted: Dec/03/2018 at 8:11pm
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It would be interesting to see what effect removing the wall in the plenum on the air gap would do to your numbers and side to side air fuel...
------------- 1972 Javelin AMX T/A Red 360/4 speed 1968 AMX "The Pied Piper" "Cam Only" 390/727 1/8th mile bracket racer on E-85. 10.92@121.9 mph. |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Dec/04/2018 at 5:02am
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I milled a cut out about 1/4" down for about 75% of the length of the wall in this intake ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: AMX1972
Date Posted: Dec/05/2018 at 10:06am
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Nice work! I enjoy seeing 360 successes ------------- 1972 Javelin AMX T/A Red 360/4 speed 1968 AMX "The Pied Piper" "Cam Only" 390/727 1/8th mile bracket racer on E-85. 10.92@121.9 mph. |
Posted By: BassBoat
Date Posted: Dec/11/2018 at 9:52am
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lots of info in this post. Thanks for sharing! I'm curious about why you chose a smaller than stock exhaust valve and how you got that to work. Did you install seats? My only experience with 1.6 valves was bad. Three or 4 reseded to the point they beat up the seats and I had to go to a 1.76 valve when the heads were freshened up. There were other issues on that engine and with that builder, so might not necessarily be the whole story. But it would scare me to do it. BB
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Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Dec/11/2018 at 12:38pm
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I use 1.6 valves in factory heads using 1.625 or smaller. The larger 1.68 valve heads I use 1.65 valves and do not have issues with them. ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: WesternRed
Date Posted: Dec/11/2018 at 6:49pm
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Are you re-cutting the valve seat angle as part of the process or still using factory 30 deg setup? ------------- I've finally given up drinking for good...........now I only drink for evil. |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Dec/11/2018 at 7:00pm
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I re cut using 45* seats with all my iron heads. I also use 11/32 or 8mm stem valves in all my heads also. ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: WesternRed
Date Posted: Dec/11/2018 at 10:28pm
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Cool, that’s pretty much as expected. ------------- I've finally given up drinking for good...........now I only drink for evil. |
Posted By: BassBoat
Date Posted: Dec/15/2018 at 9:20am
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Thanks for clarifying, yeah should be no problem with a 1.625 head. |
Posted By: 5spdwagon
Date Posted: Dec/20/2018 at 12:00pm
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man I need to just get a motor like this and then not worry about building one ------------- Real hot rods have 3 pedals |
Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Dec/20/2018 at 6:39pm
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Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Dec/20/2018 at 6:56pm
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I sure could ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Dec/20/2018 at 11:39pm
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Failed to see it posted, the 1st post HP / TQ numbers... Total Degrees Advance? Ambient or corrected? ? 1-5/8 Long Tube Headers ? Brand ? Open? or Mufflers? Who's? Thanks. -------------  Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Dec/21/2018 at 1:40am
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34* total timing, hp/tq is corrected numbers, 1 7/8 Doug's headers into dyno mufflers which are very large and not a restriction ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: Dec/21/2018 at 8:35am
x2 John is the man!  ------------- 71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX some Jeeps and some Fords |
Posted By: shootist
Date Posted: Dec/21/2018 at 9:38am
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Seriously respectable build John. Enjoyed the read. ------------- 
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Posted By: Shawn_Watson
Date Posted: Dec/21/2018 at 9:52am
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I thought your 1 7/8 primary was a typo but they do look big in the video. Is there a particular reason they're so large? Shawn
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Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Dec/21/2018 at 1:21pm
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The headers are for my Javelin and it is the only good set I have to dyno with right now so everything gets an 1 7/8 header. I do have an old rusty set of 1 5/8 I may clean up for the 304 in the future and some other builds. ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: JolleyGreenSST
Date Posted: Jan/07/2019 at 12:31am
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Awesome results! I'm surprised the peak power is so low in the rpm range with a cam that big, usually a cam with specs like that will be rated between 2500-7000 RPM'ish... it seems to taper off past 5200-5300 RPM, so do you think the intake or heads peak at that point or did you expect that range? Also how is the idle characteristics? Thanks and keep up the good work! ------------- "God is good all the time and all the time God is good!" |
Posted By: sweatlock
Date Posted: Jan/07/2019 at 6:35pm
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Yes, I'd also be be interested in the idle characteristics - vacuum at idle and at what RPM? Fantastic engine, well done!
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Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/07/2019 at 6:45pm
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13" @ 750-800 rpm's ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/07/2019 at 6:45pm
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Posted By: sweatlock
Date Posted: Jan/07/2019 at 6:57pm
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Thats really good. I watched both videos, but didn't see the Hg. It did seem to idle well, better than I expected.
I think I'm in love
 |
Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/07/2019 at 7:20pm
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Posted By: 72gremx401
Date Posted: Jan/08/2019 at 5:26pm
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looking forward to your 304 build |
Posted By: 232jav3sp
Date Posted: Jan/08/2019 at 6:49pm
X2!!!
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Posted By: sweatlock
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 6:53am
I'd have to ask how much $$$ though, which of course means I can't afford it.
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Posted By: The Anti Chrysler
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 12:55pm
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I'd bet about $5K, give or take 10%. Starting with nothing other than a core. |
Posted By: Jmerican
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 1:11pm
| C’mon, dude has to eat, and they are built with care. |
Posted By: The Anti Chrysler
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 1:42pm
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I wasn't dogging him. I just know that building motors like that isn't cheap. |
Posted By: JolleyGreenSST
Date Posted: Jan/12/2019 at 2:14pm
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JCisworthy, I'd still like to know what you think the restricting factor was in the rpm range, the heads would be my guess? Do you think you could have made similar power with a smaller cam since there is something limiting flow past 5300 rpm? Thanks again.
------------- "God is good all the time and all the time God is good!" |
Posted By: imacarfan2
Date Posted: Jan/17/2019 at 12:59pm
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I'd also like to know a rough cost of this build. Very curious. ------------- 67 Ambo conv 68 AMX 68 Ambo 4 door 70 Ambo 4 door (2) 71 Hornets (1 SC/360) 73 Hornet 2 door 77 Matador coupe 77 Sportabout 78 Concord 2 door 81 Concord wagon |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/17/2019 at 5:40pm
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Contact me on a pm and I would be happy to talk to you ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/29/2019 at 5:07pm
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Surprising results on the dyno, for me anyway Customer wanted to try different intakes. Air Gap produced the best power.     ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/29/2019 at 5:16pm
| John, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you publicly for going to the trouble to test these. I think there is a lot of valuable information (and surprises) there for people wanting to build a hot street engine. The Torker and Offy were almost identical through 4,500 rpm, when the Torker pulled away, and the Air Gap blew both of them away starting at about 3,500. |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/29/2019 at 5:20pm
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Good information for sure. I thought for sure the Torker would have made more on the other end of the pull than the Air Gap. The Offenhouser killed flow through the head on the flow bench and performed worse than the others ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/29/2019 at 5:32pm
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Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/29/2019 at 5:42pm
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The heads flow more with a Torker than the Air Gap on the bench. That is why I thought it would have made more power even at this rpm level ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/29/2019 at 5:54pm
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Posted By: Ram Air Rick
Date Posted: Jan/29/2019 at 7:31pm
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In general John, I'd like to thank you for all the posting you do regarding engine mods, engine builds, and your dyno experiences. I always look forward to reading your latest exploits. Keep up the great work, and again, thank you for sharing ! Rich C.
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Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jan/29/2019 at 7:48pm
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Yes, Thank You JC for posting, it takes considerable effort beyond the all the real work to post this stuff, cameras, pictures, videos, files, text, etc. And unsure who, but the measuring of the Intake Volumes was a lot of effort also. Thank You
------------- Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video |
Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/29/2019 at 8:24pm
Most dyno runs that I have seen on the Air Gap, although very good, don't show nearly as big of an advantage. Of course, these were stock out of the box intakes, and most of those runs (maybe all) were on a small block Chevy. Also, the Air Gap designed for AMC may work somewhat better than the ones for other makes. It would be interesting to see a dyno run of a stock Air Gap versus one that John has modified. |
Posted By: Shawn_Watson
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 7:44am
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I've often wondered why Edelbrock didn't notch the divider for the AMC Air-Gap like they do for other makes. Shawn
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Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 8:23am
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Posted By: Ken_Parkman
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 8:58am
| Note the air gap is a small csa intake. It seems to be sized for a 360; I have not had so good results on 401's. |
Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 9:18am
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Posted By: Jmerican
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 9:59am
| Where has John said that he modified the rpm air gap? |
Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 10:20am
Edit: On page 3 of this thread, John said how much he milled the divider down. He did a couple of other things too. |
Posted By: Ken_Parkman
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 11:54am
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I too am surprised the how well the Air gap showed compared to the torker. I have tested on a mild ~440 hp 401, and the torker showed to be more power, also reflected at the track. Have to find my data for the magnitude; it was not huge but it was there.Both intakes had some effort to optimize with multiple pulls with different spacers etc. I found the air gap very responsive to an open spacer and ended up using a fairly trick HVH spacer specifically for a dual plane. This would open the plenum sides to each other similar to machining the divider. Clearly the air gap made a better torque curve and felt better on the street. But the torker made more power and was faster at the track. IMO the air gap is csa limited on a 401 above about 5200 rpm. The 360 would pull a higher rpm. That 360 build certainly is excellent, very nice power.
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Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 12:18pm
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Posted By: 67 Marlin
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 2:10pm
I'm interested to know Mr. Parkman's thoughts, too. My 343's at the shop and will be utilizing the 390 intake that was subsequently made available for the 343s and 290s. I wanted to keep my motor all iron, but no one said I couldn't "machine" it. When I dropped the parts off at the shop, the owner asked if I did this. I thought great, I ruined the intake. When I told him yes, he said that was a good move and it'll help. We'll see. John did my 343 heads, so I'm definitely excited to see!  |
Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 2:19pm
I saw an old dyno test of a 71 LS6 Corvette in which the divider was almost completely removed, and it picked up about 40 horsepower after 4,000 rpm. |
Posted By: one bad rambler
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 5:05pm
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I would like to see this intake dyno`ed against a performer and an air gap to see the differences -------------  68 AMX 390 4 Speed,68 American,64 American 2 Door Wagon Altered Wheelbase,78 Concord Build 360,727,8.8
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Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 6:03pm
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I do like the shape of the air gap runners and the new prototype Edelbrock intake should be an excellent option. Looking forward to that one, hopefully soon. For most street performance builds the air gap seems like the way to go ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: Ken_Parkman
Date Posted: Jan/30/2019 at 9:43pm
| Never did any accurate comparison between iron and aluminum intakes, so don't really have any data. My opinion is the big port iron intakes are fine - just heavy! |
Posted By: dbltrbl
Date Posted: Jan/31/2019 at 1:25am
| Did anyone note AFR's on the dyno sheets? It looks like the torker might have been a bit lean side but L/R measurements are similar. On the cut plenum divider Air Gap other side is lean other is rich. |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Jan/31/2019 at 2:39am
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I noticed. I could have tried stagger jetting on the air gap but did not for this engine. I also could have added some jet to the torker which I did before that pull and it got the air fuels pretty close but still a little lean. Increasing two jet sizes in the primary and three sizes on the pull before the one posted picked the engine up around 10 on both ends. More jet and a spacer would probably have picked up 10-20 more hp and torque but there is no room for a spacer in this application and another 10 or so would not have made up the difference so I left it as it was. Time was running out because I had made an unexpected intake manifold change on the dyno. The air gap dyno test was done a few months ago and the Offey / torker testing was a few days ago and weather conditions were very different. The dyno has a correction factor for all conditions so the numbers should be good but a better test would have been to add the air gap the same day and test again. ------------- Specializing in dyno services, engine building, and cylinder head porting rbjracing.com Phone Number 518-915-3203 |
Posted By: cw05
Date Posted: Jan/31/2019 at 6:57am
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It's apples to oranges comparison with the SBC test mule, but I thought the Engine Masters episode this week was interesting. The Edelbrock AirGap (milled divider) vs. Weiand Airgap-like (solid plenum divider) was basically the same: https://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/sbc-dual-plane-shootout/1_ml58v3et/" rel="nofollow - https://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/sbc-dual-plane-shootout/1_ml58v3et/ |
Posted By: WesternRed
Date Posted: Jan/31/2019 at 7:04am
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I watched that also, another good example of air-gap style manifolds supporting a fair bit of horsepower. I did like that Weiand seems to have put a bit of thought into their intake rather than just making another air-gap clone, even if is was made in China. Not made for AMC applications of course. ------------- I've finally given up drinking for good...........now I only drink for evil. |
Posted By: Sonic Silver
Date Posted: Jan/31/2019 at 9:33am
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Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: Jan/31/2019 at 5:24pm
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Thank you John for taking the time to do this stuff and then making it public for everyone. Even though I bought an RPM for a mild 401 build, I had pretty much made up my mind that it would cost power vs a Torker, glad to see that may not be the case. ------------- 71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX some Jeeps and some Fords |
Posted By: WesternRed
Date Posted: Jan/31/2019 at 7:02pm
Here is the old test that Ken Parkman did on the Air-Gap vs the Torker that he mentioned earlier in this thread. In this instance the Torker pulled ahead from around 4,500 RPM, but not really much in it. I think it just shows that it's not cut and dried, every engine is going to be different and we are just fortunate that people have taken the time to test these things. ------------- I've finally given up drinking for good...........now I only drink for evil. |