196 intake plate gasket
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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC 6 Cylinder Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made I-6 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=96060
Printed Date: Apr/17/2024 at 8:25pm
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Topic: 196 intake plate gasket
Posted By: Theycallmesdz
Subject: 196 intake plate gasket
Date Posted: Aug/28/2018 at 8:12am
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So I have a 65 rambler 440 with the 196 engine. The intake plate appears to be sealed with an entire tube of rtv. I can get the felpro set locally and wanted to know if sealant is recommended when I install the new gasket? Thanks!
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Replies:
Posted By: rocklandrambler
Date Posted: Aug/28/2018 at 9:37am
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In my opinion, NO. When you get the gasket set you'll see that the gasket is thick enough not to need sealant. Also remember the inner plate bolts are actually head bolts and will have to be torqued correctly. ------------- Past AMC's 1974 Hornet X (new) 1975 Gremlin X (new) 1964 Classic 660 Cross Country 1965 American 440-H |
Posted By: Theycallmesdz
Date Posted: Aug/28/2018 at 9:40am
| Thanks!!!! I did not know that about the inner bolts! |
Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Aug/28/2018 at 11:38pm
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is the head off? taking out 6 bolts is gonna mess with head sealing. i need to pull my 1bbl plate off to put on a milled-out one and i'm afraid to. the gasket is thick enough to not need much if any sealer as rockandrambler says. i use a light coat of some non-hardening mostly to make myself feel better. cheap silicone makes a lousy gasket. most of them are not oil or fuel compatible. i use only Permatex brand and use the correct one for the application. they cost a lot more than the cheap GE crap (i wouln't seal a window with that crap). but i did assemble a 195.6 OHV with zero gaskets other than head and oil pump, not even pan. i used Permatex Right Stuff. it's $25 a can. it WORKS. it's not RTV silicone. it's great. when the engine came apart 10 years later the stuff just peeled off nicely like a gasket would. great stuff. but the gasket is perfectly fine! ------------- 1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Aug/29/2018 at 8:17am
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It seems like this a 'vintage engine' thing, where the 'old school' gasket sealers like 'Indian Head shellac' (?) on a thin gasket would be 'best' ...to reduce 'squish' and/or distortion caused by torquing the six head bolts down (with less torque applied to the install the other intake cover perimeter bolts) http://www.stolzeclassiccars.nl/aanbod/3461/nash-healey-53-roadster/ Seems to be 'worth doing it right'; it is a famous engine design, for winning races, as installed in the wonderfully made Nash Healey sports cars:  ------------- 443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/ |
Posted By: Theycallmesdz
Date Posted: Aug/29/2018 at 2:35pm
| WOW!!!!!!! thats beautiful!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Aug/29/2018 at 10:28pm
HOLEY KARAP THAT'S BEAUTIFUL!! probably has headgasket problems too lol. but at least it looks good doing it! the real problem with the 195.6 head is the design itself. there's simply not enough gasket space, and as bad, the bolt spacing and placement is awful. i wonder how that earlier engine is different. FARNA/Frank, do you know? it's from a different fork in the evolutionary path; "our" rambler motor wasn't that Ambassador motor, but the little econo flathead, that got re-headed OHV. but clearly the same approximate, base design. i think that motor there has 7 mains. which improves head sealing -- because the cylinders are further apart, because of the three extra bearings, hence gasket surface area, and a better bolt pattern. but it's longer and heavier. i've always wondered if there' s not some other blocks and heads adaptable. it's not like anyone's ever cared about this motor or its lineage much so it's entirely possible there are possiblities in here. ------------- 1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
amcenthusiast wrote:Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/03/2018 at 7:55am
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That's the 234.8 engine, I believe. The exhaust is similar to the 196 as it's on the left side under the intake, but it's a pipe clamped to the block like the flat-head. The Nash-Healey (that's what the photo is of) supposedly had a special head, but I believe the casting was just altered for the dual\side draft carbs, nothing more. It may have had larger valves though, I'm not sure. I don't know if it had the issues the 196 OHV did or not, but it was more common to re-torque head gaskets in the 40s and 50s due to gasket materials. Part of the problem with the 196 OHV design is it is a conversion from an L-head with minimal changes to the block, which affect sealing surface area and head bolt location. There were seven mains in the 234.8 and similar OHV sixes, and it's longer than the 196 -- more comparable to the 232 family. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/03/2018 at 7:57am
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I always loosened ALL head bolts when replacing the intake plate,then torqued back down in sequence. I'd think that loosening all the bolts on one side could cause a sealing issue, and that engine has head sealing issues enough without introducing another factor! ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Sep/03/2018 at 10:22pm
i don't have Nash manuals, but google searches (without being exhaustive) say that the Nash Healey got the Ambassador engine, which is of course as you say, the 7-main engine. makes perfect sense for man reasons. 7 mains would provide more/equal cylinder spacing, eliminating the major small-six head sealing issues. probably the same undersized, crappy mushroom lifters. not really complaining, this stuff is old! i'm fairly sure, though based only on one engine, that the crank flange changed in the late 50's, from 4 bolts to 6. same flange, just more bolts. ------------- 1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Sep/03/2018 at 10:24pm
i think that's wise, and hadn't considered it. to prevent shifting or other issues i could probably back them off in the pattern, down to 30 ft/lbs etc to keep it intimate then remove the six necessary. i'll ask my machinist about this. ------------- 1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/04/2018 at 5:49am
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Other than the 172.6/184/196, I think all the previous Nash sixes had seven main bearings. I wrote an extensive article on the Nash/Rambler/AMC sixes from the first in 1916 through the 4.0L some years ago. Almost forgot I had all the PDFs on my computer! AIM #27, 2003. All but that first six, built from 1916-1925, had six mains. That first one only had THREE!!! Compression was only 3.80:1, and it only put out 46-60 hp, depending on year. With only three mains 60 hp was probably about the max. RPM was a low 2200-2400 for max power. Sizes were 207.4 and 248.9. I didn't have any info in the article on crank flanges, Tom is probably right about the four and six bolt configurations. I do have some old Nash manuals, don't know if they show the flanges or not. If someone is really interested I'll look through them. I never worried about sequence when taking a head off. I don't think the short time under uneven stress, especially with the engine not running, makes a difference. Never has, and I've had a few 196 OHV heads off and on. ------------- Frank Swygert |