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Can anyone ID this tool

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Forum Name: Tool Time tool review and eval area
Forum Description: Tool reviews, evaluations and tips only please.
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Topic: Can anyone ID this tool
Posted By: billd
Subject: Can anyone ID this tool
Date Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 6:06pm
The bottom tool in this picture (the top is Ford, just not sure of the year or what it came with)

The Elgin
EXTRA Jaw 25¢
 
It's obvious that it's a sort of adjustable "wrench" or pliers, not really a "Crescent wrench" and not really "Vice Grips"
The bottom jaw is plain, the top has angled serrations.

Were many made? Has anyone else seen these?

This one is stamped with a Patent Date of June 8 1897

It works after a bit of cleaning.
This is one of the odd tools I found in my father's numerous stashes of tools and stuff. (some of which he found and gathered over the years, some are old tools from family dating back 100 years.)




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Replies:
Posted By: amcglass
Date Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 6:43pm
and you can get an extra jaw for .25 also



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Javmanpres

BBG Mark Donohue 401

74 Jav/AMX
71 Matador 2dr sedan delivery wagon
1902 Rambler Runabout   
70 T/A Javelin


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by amcglass amcglass wrote:

and you can get an extra jaw for .25 also



Here I thought this would be the continuation to the Gizmo, whatcha-ma-call it, doohicky, thinga-mabob.

They almost look like sheep shears to me.

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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 7:40pm
I found this - it's called an alligator wrench and yeah, it was made just before the 1900s, patent was applied for in 1896 and it was made by Elgin until 99 then production was taken over by another company, apparently. 
So it's truly over 100 years old and it has been used - by the wear on the jaws..

http://alloy-artifacts.org/other-makers.html#elgin" rel="nofollow - http://alloy-artifacts.org/other-makers.html#elgin




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Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 7:55pm
Billd, my grandpa would call water pump pliers, alligator pliers. Though that design has much longer jaw, and built around the crescent wrench.

I figured having both shown, was a bit of a brain teaser on your part... trying to trick us in an odd way.

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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: turbo
Date Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 8:12pm
The bottom looks like a hose pinch off tool

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they call me Capt RETIRED!


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 8:33pm
Wonder if the Ford tool was part of a model T tool kit? But the first year for the model T was 1908..........


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by purple72Gremlin purple72Gremlin wrote:

Wonder if the Ford tool was part of a model T tool kit? But the first year for the model T was 1908..........


Don't let the Ford tool throw you - it's not related to the Elgin tool, other than both came from Dad's house.
It just happens to be in the photo instead of taking two photos.
Would be nice to know about the Ford wrench but it's not related to the Elgin wrench.


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Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by 304-dude 304-dude wrote:

Billd, my grandpa would call water pump pliers, alligator pliers. Though that design has much longer jaw, and built around the crescent wrench.

I figured having both shown, was a bit of a brain teaser on your part... trying to trick us in an odd way.


Not even close to water pump pliers. Water pump pliers are like what we call "Channel Lock" pliers - which like Crescent, is a NAME BRAND.
Water pumps used to have a packing nut - there was a treated packing, leather or rope, etc. and it was behind a nut with a shoulder which the shaft went through. 
As the packing wore and the pump started to leak around the shaft, you used water pump pliers to tighten the packing nut.
Again they are like channel lock pliers - the two jaws stay PARALLEL as you adjust them so the pliers jaws hit the two opposite sides of the water pump packing nut evenly, more like an adjustable wrench (what you'd call a Crescent Wrench which is a NAME BRAND).
Look at "channel lock" pliers - they can adjust to a great extent and the jaws can stay parallel to the sides of a packing nut, small or large, to snug up the packing and keep the pump from leaking..
The water pump pliers date back to very early cars with water pumps.
I collected and restored antique engines, tractors, etc. and worked on cars of ALL ages years ago.

Whatever that Elgin tool was sold for wasn't water pumps - not near big enough and the jaws do NOT stay parallel and they are more to wedge and grab than sit on the sides of a packing nut. Too small, not designed to get into the pump shaft packing nut and away from fan blades.


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Posted By: Someassemblyrqd
Date Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 8:55pm
The Ford tool is interesting. To me, it appears to be a two-in-one tool with the square head at the handle end, as if it was to be used to take drain plugs out, similar to a differential plug.

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Greg E.


Posted By: amcglass
Date Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by 304-dude 304-dude wrote:

Originally posted by amcglass amcglass wrote:

and you can get an extra jaw for .25 also



Here I thought this would be the continuation to the Gizmo, whatcha-ma-call it, doohicky, thinga-mabob.

They almost look like sheep shears to me.

could always get ahold of TIM the TOOL man Taylor and ask ..... he would know



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Javmanpres

BBG Mark Donohue 401

74 Jav/AMX
71 Matador 2dr sedan delivery wagon
1902 Rambler Runabout   
70 T/A Javelin


Posted By: javelinkid
Date Posted: Aug/26/2018 at 6:39am
I have read that these were for bicycles. Kind of an all purpose wrench that really did not work all that well. Great for rounding off bolt heads! The hole in the end was "supposed" to be for hanging the tool on your handle bars. Sounds safe enough! ;)


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Aug/26/2018 at 10:15am
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:


Originally posted by purple72Gremlin purple72Gremlin wrote:

Wonder if the Ford tool was part of a model T tool kit? But the first year for the model T was 1908..........



Don't let the Ford tool throw you - it's not related to the Elgin tool, other than both came from Dad's house.
It just happens to be in the photo instead of taking two photos.
Would be nice to know about the Ford wrench but it's not related to the Elgin wrench.
I just noticed the Ford tool. I will admit that I have no idea as to what the Elgin tool is.


Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: Aug/26/2018 at 10:56am
Top wrench says FORD on it,
so it's obviously a type of hammer Wink





https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/" rel="nofollow - https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/
^is a great place to ask about any unusual tools you come across if you don't get the answers here. 


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71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX
some Jeeps and some Fords


Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Date Posted: Aug/26/2018 at 6:34pm
I have the same Ford wrench in my first tool box that I got for Christmas when I was 7-8 years old. I used it on my bicycle for several year until I got my first set of Craftsman combination wrenches. I still have that first tool box and all the tools that I collected as a kid. That Ford wrench is old, but it still has a lot of utility and still be useful  100 years from now.

Tom


Posted By: greasygt III
Date Posted: Aug/26/2018 at 9:48pm
Bill, google alloy artifacts.org. and go down the alphabetical list to Elgin tool and socket. You'll find your answer.

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83 Spirit GT
79 Ranchero GT 460


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/26/2018 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by greasygt III greasygt III wrote:

Bill, google alloy artifacts.org. and go down the alphabetical list to Elgin tool and socket. You'll find your answer.


i guess you missed post number four - been there............  Wink
It looks like it was just supposed to be a handy tool, like pliers or something. There's really nothing specific about these, other than the nickname alligator, associated with it.

I've read about the bicycle tool rumors, too - and enough folks cast serious doubt on that, along with what I know about bikes back then, I suspect it was a thing that either got spread and took on life, or someone did use it for their bike back then and hated doing so.
First, seriously, take off the grip each time?
Ya, right - those often were next to impossible to take off, and to have to remove the grip to get the tool off the handle bar?
No, like so many other tools, that hole likely has nothing to do with hanging on a handle bar of a bike and was more likely part of the design, pure and simple, or the manufacturing process, or have some other possible use. 
For one thing, it's pocket size.......... also why have it swinging hanging on a handle bar only to wear the finish off the handle bar.
I would bet the use on bikes was something that was mentioned by someone way back - on the web, and simply got copied around.
could be wrong - but the support for it being a bike tool is thin at best. Seriously? - remove a grip to get the tool off the handle bar? Right.
And if like many bicycle owners 100 years ago, you likely had a horn or bell clamped onto the handle bars......... 

The Ford wrench has an interesting shape to the end of the handle - it's not rounded at the end like expected, it's got a square end at the end of the handle. 
That wrench is in EXCELLENT shape, a lot of black color left on it. 
If I recall correctly, Dad had it in the house all these years inside a tool box stuck in the bottom of a hall closet, rarely dragged out and used. 

I grabbed the tool box because it had his plane and a few other tools I recall from childhood that I watched him use - - the large wood handle on the plane was broken and taped but I removed the tape and goo and used good glue to put it back together and refinished it a bit and the plane is like new other than seeing that crack in the wood handle I fixed. 




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Posted By: Lucas660
Date Posted: Aug/27/2018 at 5:31am
There are dies that fit in the hole in the handle, and the jaws can be used in a ratcheting motion on a tap, useful in hard to reach areas.


Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Aug/30/2018 at 10:53pm
The top one is a Ford Model T 1926 - adjustable wrench and the square end was to remove the plug for checking grease in the rear end. It was also used for Model A's, same purpose.
The bottom one is an Elgin adjustable alligator wrench produced into the late 1920's.
Nice pieces.


Posted By: RADAMX
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 11:10am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_wrench

We always called the top one a Monkey Wrench

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monkey_and_Stillson_wrenches.png" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monkey_and_Stillson_wrenches.png


Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 11:40am
The top one does not appear to have a serrated jaw so it cannot grip pipe. So it's not a "monkey" or "pipe" wrench.
The bottom does have the serrated jaw and is adjustable but does not have an open/lock function like a vise grip. It's specific use is unknown to me. It may grip pipe or something soft if pushed on but it would not have the holding power of a pipe wrench. 


Posted By: RADAMX
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 12:01pm
A Monkey wrench has no serrated jaws it is not a pipe wrench


Posted By: partsguy
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 1:05pm
I think i seen the bottom one in a dentist office once,LOL


Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 5:29pm
I stand corrected, yes by most definitions a "monkey" wrench does not have serrated jaws and is defined as a 90 degree adjustable type wrench.
Who knew that 32 years in the trade that all the trades people/instructors I worked with were wrong. Mind you most were British so maybe there is a royal difference???
My apologies!



Posted By: mmaher94087
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 7:06pm
"The bottom one is an Elgin adjustable alligator wrench produced into the late 1920's.". Did I miss the part about "What's it used for?".

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Mike


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Sep/05/2018 at 5:24pm
Yeah, "monkey wrenches" and "pipe wrenches" are totally different. The pipe wrench also SELF-TIGHTENS around the pipe. It's made so that once it starts to "grab" the pipe, the jaws tighten even more, there's usually a spring in the older better ones. They only work one way.
The Ford wrench won't self-tighten, it's more like an "adjustable wrench" in that respect (what many call a "crescent wrench").
But there's actually a right and wrong to them, too - but not for the same reasons as pipe wrenches.
I bet I have over a dozen various pipe wrenches - from very small to pretty large.

For kicks, here's a couple of pictures of a tool I found buried in a bunch of stuff most folks would have tossed, stuck up in a cigar box in a cupboard in Dad's garage............ 
Patent date is in 1922 if I remember right - without looking. 
No, it doesn't work, rust and age have seen to that, but it's still cool.






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Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Sep/05/2018 at 11:22pm
Please provide dimensions because first look is 1920's 30 OT 170 bullet.


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Sep/06/2018 at 3:11pm
30
LBS TO
170

is what it says on the end.

I'd have thought the left end would have given it away! That part is much like the modern version of this tool. (but modern versions don't start at 30 and go up to 170!)

Now what interests me, besides the range, is the name of the company that made it -
A. Schrader's Son, Inc.

Not "Schrader, Son and Company", not Schrader and company, not Schrader, Sons and Company, but "A. Schrader's Son, Inc."

Obviously, A. Schrader's son had a company and made this.....






By the way, found another Ford script wrench, a used open end wrench. I say used because one end was used on a TIGHT bolt or nut and is stretched a tad, but it's definitely a Ford script wrench.
I have a bucket of old wrenches Dad gave me years ago I need to go through!


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Posted By: bigbad69
Date Posted: Sep/06/2018 at 6:29pm
According to Wikipedia, August Schrader's son, George, was largely involved in the invention of the Schrader valve. Makes sense he would make a tire gauge to fit that valve as well.


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69 Javelin SST BBO 390 T10


Posted By: DetroitAMX
Date Posted: Jan/17/2019 at 11:46pm


Elgin is a 'Sears' Brand. It was the name of their top of the line bikes in the early part of the century.
     It's a Bicycle wrench


Posted By: Jmerican
Date Posted: Jan/18/2019 at 12:52pm
I have a tire gauge like that one. It’s polished and surprisingly, it works well. 


Posted By: 6768rogues
Date Posted: Jan/18/2019 at 4:43pm
I “think” the adjustable wrench is from a Model A tool kit. It has the square end to remove plugs. I think a tractor wrench is similar without the square end. Many survived because people kept the tools when junking the car.

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