Drag Racing - Aviaid Dry Sump Oil Pan

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Aviaid Dry Sump Oil Pan

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Topic: Aviaid Dry Sump Oil Pan

Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Subject: Aviaid Dry Sump Oil Pan
Date Posted: Jul/31/2018 at 1:09am

Anyone using one of their oil pans?

http://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ds_oilpns_amc.html

Tom

Replies:

Posted By: GnipGnop4
Date Posted: Jul/31/2018 at 12:21pm

Check out post by Coloradoamx

Topic: TA Javelin 5 ltr

This is listed under the Racing/Circle track category. Looks like he is using all the Aviaid goodies!

Robert

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Jul/31/2018 at 6:19pm

Yes, I am using the Aviaid pan and pump. I like the setup as well as the expert advice from Aviaid. They have been around forever, and pioneered dry sump back in the early days.

Posted By: amx600rr
Date Posted: Jul/31/2018 at 10:21pm

Yes I have this pan also. I had to modify it over the weekend. I found out on Friday the rod bolts from #5,6,7 & 8 on my 3.80 stroke w/ Compstar rods hit the louvers. I had to modify the windage tray to lower it. Also changed the type of "fender clips" that the windage tray bolts attach to. Installed the clips that have full cylindrical threads, purchased aluminum 1/4 bolts and used medium thread lock. The fasteners provided were steel bolts and fender clips that have 2 flat half sprung metal tabs for threads. I wanted to make sure they wouldn't vibrate loose.

(don't know how to post pictures, sorry)

Jerry

Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Date Posted: Jul/31/2018 at 10:35pm

amx600rr wrote:

(don't know how to post pictures, sorry)

Jerry

To post a photo hit the reply and look for the 6th icon to the left. Image of a tree. Click on that image and the choose the photo. Click upload and it will appear on the box on the right. You'll figure out the rest from there.

Tom

Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Date Posted: Jul/31/2018 at 10:40pm

amx600rr wrote:

(don't know how to post pictures, sorry)

Jerry

This what I wanted to hear. I going to be using a 3.8" stroke with aluminum rods, so I doubt this pan is going to work for me unless the louvers can be moved down a lot.

Tom

Posted By: amx600rr
Date Posted: Aug/01/2018 at 7:00am

Yes I had to move the louver tray down almost flush with the front half of the pan. Bent the 4 tabs down.

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Aug/01/2018 at 1:34pm

I didn't have any stroke issues because my engine is de-stroked. 2.5" stroke.... although my engine is built by Barry Allen, so I don't know specifically when he had to do in terms of mods.

Wayne

Posted By: amx600rr
Date Posted: Aug/01/2018 at 7:03pm

Posted By: amx600rr
Date Posted: Aug/01/2018 at 7:12pm

You can see where #7 & 8 rod bolts scraped the 3 center louvers on the top row and 2nd, 3rd and 4th on the lower row from rod #6.

In my rush to modify it, I failed to take a picture before I bolted the pan back on.

Jerry

(PROSTOCKTOM, Thank You for the Tutoring of posting)

Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Date Posted: Aug/01/2018 at 10:36pm

amx600rr wrote:

You can see where #7 & 8 rod bolts scraped the 3 center louvers on the top row and 2nd, 3rd and 4th on the lower row from rod #6.

In my rush to modify it, I failed to take a picture before I bolted the pan back on.

Jerry

(PROSTOCKTOM, Thank You for the Tutoring of posting)

Your welcome, looks like you did a fine job with it.

Tom

Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Date Posted: Aug/01/2018 at 10:40pm

amx600rr wrote:

How far down were you able to lower it? My concern is I'll have the same stroke as you, but the aluminum rods are probably going to be to large to use this pan even if I lowered it. Hate to buy a $500 pan and start reworking it only to find out it's a no go.

Tom

Posted By: amx600rr
Date Posted: Aug/02/2018 at 5:29am

I dropped it 1/2 inch and bowed the center down for insurance. Looked like 1/2 of clearance when finished.
Wish I had taken a picture

Posted By: Steve_P
Date Posted: Aug/02/2018 at 7:26am

I haven't dealt with Aviaid in 20 years, but when I did, for a wet sump pan, they would build whatever you wanted. They sent me a sketch of their wet sump pan and I made several changes to the design for my application. They built it like I asked them to, and there were no issues with fit.

I would suggest calling and talking to them about your application and required clearances. See if they can built the pan so it won't have to be modified once you get it.

Posted By: amx600rr
Date Posted: Aug/06/2018 at 6:52pm

Coloradoamx which brand of starter are you using? My Robbmac starter looks super close to the outlets. Not sure a 90 degree fitting will clear. Thanks.
Jerry

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Aug/06/2018 at 10:46pm

I used a Powermaster XS mini starter. No issues at all.

Posted By: Glenn Quinn
Date Posted: Aug/18/2018 at 7:25am

I ordered one last week for the dragster. They are building it now and it should ship in less than 2 weeks.

-------------
The "X", 8.74 @ 162 - N/A

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Aug/18/2018 at 5:42pm

Glenn Quinn wrote:

I ordered one last week for the dragster. They are building it now and it should ship in less than 2 weeks.

Did you order the pan or the whole dry sump setup?

Posted By: Glenn Quinn
Date Posted: Aug/26/2018 at 7:56am

I already have a dry sump set up, so I only ordered the pan. In fact I ordered two pans one for each motor.

-------------
The "X", 8.74 @ 162 - N/A

Posted By: amx600rr
Date Posted: Aug/26/2018 at 8:43am

In hind sight, I would have ordered the pan with the pickup outlets on the left (drivers) side. It is wide open over there and would have had a better line to the pump on the right side. Plus I wouldn’t have to buy a different starter because mine hits fittings. They need to be 3/8-1/2 lower.

Posted By: amx390ssc
Date Posted: Nov/26/2018 at 4:12pm

interesting oil pan.

Posted By: i6cj7
Date Posted: Dec/22/2018 at 10:51pm

I thought I read 401s would die from using a drysumo for some reason?

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Dec/22/2018 at 11:20pm

I don't know why a 401 would die with a dry sump, but I can think of situations where it might die without a dry sump.

Posted By: i6cj7
Date Posted: Dec/24/2018 at 2:55pm

I'm building a single turbo 401 to go into my jeep. And wondered if drysump would be overkill or the way to go for offroading. Currently i just plan on using a milodon or aviad 9 quart pan with a 2 or 3 quart accusump plumbed in for insurance. Thoughts?

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Dec/24/2018 at 4:21pm

Aside from the significant cost associated with the dry sump system, I wouldn't recommend a dry sump system for anything other than a race engine. For one, it is a pain in the neck to have to prime the system when you start the engine. If the engine sits for a few hours, the system needs to be primed to put oil back in the engine, but more importantly to scavenge oil out of the engine that has seeped past the pump into the engine due to gravity. If my engine sits for a couple days, 2-3 quarts can settle into the engine. I suppose if it sat for a long time, the entire tank could gravity feed into the engine.

The dry sump system is primarily meant to keep oil in the engine under severe cornering/braking where a wet sump system may suck air due to the pick-up losing oil, and especially at very high RPMs. I would expect that during off roading, you would probably not see high RPMs, but rather some lower RPMs making a dry sump system overkill and unnecessary.

Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Date Posted: Dec/24/2018 at 4:27pm

i6cj7 wrote:

I'm building a single turbo 401 to go into my jeep. And wondered if dry sump would be overkill or the way to go for off roading. Currently i just plan on using a milodon or aviad 9 quart pan with a 2 or 3 quart accusump plumbed in for insurance. Thoughts?

Food for thought: Dry sump systems were originally developed for use in WWII airplanes and then migrated to racing use after WWII. The main reason to use a dry sump is that it sucks the oil out of the pan and keeps it stored in the oil storage tank. This allows less crankshaft windage and allows the engine to still get oil regardless of the position of the engine. For Drag racing, Road Racing, and for sure Off Roading it is next to impossible to keep oil in the proper position to use a single wet sump oil pickup. Yes, it cost $2500-$3000 to get a complete dry sump system, but you will gain reliability and increase in horsepower from using it.

Tom

Posted By: i6cj7
Date Posted: Dec/24/2018 at 4:56pm

Don't some of the new corvettes come with a drysump? I know my old Xr250r has a drysump system and it stores the oil in the frame. I didn't realize a drysump on a car needed to be primed before every use. This will be a daily driver., I'm just looking for the best oiling i can with what I'm putting into it and its intended use.

Like Tom said, with offroading at extreme angles I know drysump wouldn't skip a beat. I just don't know alot other than that

Posted By: 401Ambo
Date Posted: Dec/24/2018 at 5:56pm

Since my cars sit awhile between start-ups I use a 1 1/2 qt Moroso Oil Accumulator to pre-lube the engines before starting. It'll put out 20-25 psi. I have a Moroso solenoid plumbed into the line so it only takes a flick of the switch and it auto refills after the engine starts.

-------------
'72 401 Ambassador wagon
'69 pro-Street AMX
AMX/2 (starting soon)

Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Date Posted: Dec/24/2018 at 10:06pm

i6cj7 wrote:

Don't some of the new corvettes come with a dry sump? I know my old Xr250r has a dry sump system and it stores the oil in the frame. I didn't realize a dry sump on a car needed to be primed before every use. This will be a daily driver., I'm just looking for the best oiling i can with what I'm putting into it and its intended use.

Like Tom said, with off roading at extreme angles I know dry sump wouldn't skip a beat. I just don't know a lot other than that

Priming a dry sump is not big of an issue. All you do is remove the belt. You keep them loose anyway, so you don't even need to loosen the pump. Then you just need a 3/8" cordless drill with a socket chucked in it to turn the pump. It only takes a few seconds and you'll have only pressure in the system. As far as the oil draining back in the pan just put a 1/4 turn shut off valve at the bottom of the tank. If you into extreme off roading you can't go wrong using this type of system.

Tom

Posted By: i6cj7
Date Posted: Dec/25/2018 at 2:13pm

after some research., the vette LS7 and LS9 are both drysump. Why don't these need to be primed? I know vette owners aren't popping their hoods everytime they go to drive them. Is there not a system for us like what's used in those that's daily drivable??

Posted By: Gizmo456
Date Posted: Dec/25/2018 at 2:34pm

The LS7 and 9 are a hybrid drysump system. Still use an internal oil pump and an external oil tank.

I have a dailey billet dry sump on my LS7. It's the tits because it scavenges 4 stages internally. I also use a Peterson remote filter with primer to get oil to the main bearings and top end if it has been sitting for a while. No need to take the belt off to prime with this little beauty.

Posted By: i6cj7
Date Posted: Dec/25/2018 at 4:36pm

man that is PRETTY!! Would a hybrid system like the LS7 has be something that could be created to work on the ole 401 ?

Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Date Posted: Dec/25/2018 at 7:00pm

i6cj7 wrote:

man that is PRETTY!! Would a hybrid system like the LS7 has be something that could be created to work on the ole 401 ?

Anything is possible, but knowing what that Daily system cost and the fact that your wanting a one off item I would expect the price tag to be over $7,000 for an AMC.

Tom

Posted By: i6cj7
Date Posted: Dec/26/2018 at 8:22pm

I've messaged Aviad, they said after the first initial prime of installing the system.. That subsequent priming wouldn't really be an issue, and even if some oil leaks back down to the pan That idling for a bit will fill top it back off.

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Dec/26/2018 at 10:25pm

Over the next couple days, I'll record a video of the process I go through to prime my pump. I haven't used anything like this, but the link below is a pretty neat way to easily prime a dry sump system.

http://pitstopusa.com/i-19454918-peterson-remote-filter-mount-w-primer-pump-large-filter-w-1-1-2-12-thread-12-an.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&scid=scplp19454918&sc_intid=19454918&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6ozhBRC8ARIsAIh_VC3EOxrzpovD-IyWmNXw2KHAtKe_5h9KEoe_q9rZJPydrEmcJinKELMaAl6kEALw_wcB" rel="nofollow - https://pitstopusa.com/i-19454918-peterson-remote-filter-mount-w-primer-pump-large-filter-w-1-1-2-12-thread-12-an.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&scid=scplp19454918&sc_intid=19454918&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6ozhBRC8ARIsAIh_VC3EOxrzpovD-IyWmNXw2KHAtKe_5h9KEoe_q9rZJPydrEmcJinKELMaAl6kEALw_wcB

By the way, my engine builder would not agree with Aviaid's comment about only priming on initial start-up. I prefer to be better safe than sorry. Bearings are expensive, especially with 13:1 compression trying to beat them out when the engine is dry.

Posted By: Gizmo456
Date Posted: Dec/26/2018 at 11:12pm

Coloradoamx

Have a look in my photo next to the dry sump tank. I have the same remote filter/primer pump.

It's the easiest way to quickly prime the motor. I carry a small cordless drill in my glove box to prime.

Posted By: PROSTOCKTOM
Date Posted: Dec/26/2018 at 11:38pm

i6cj7 wrote:

I've messaged Aviad, they said after the first initial prime of installing the system.. That subsequent priming wouldn't really be an issue, and even if some oil leaks back down to the pan That idling for a bit will fill top it back off.

I too would have to disagree with Aviad on that statement as well. Like I said previously it literally only take a second to pull the belt off and just a few seconds with the drill and you'll have pressure on the gauge. It is so simple and easy to do and then you know with 100% certainty that you have pressure. Pro cars completely drain the oil out of there engines after every race and refill with new oil. I tried finding you a video, but apparently it's not something that anyone has bothered to record yet.

Tom

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Dec/29/2018 at 2:09pm

I just recorded a quick video of the process to prime a dry sump system. Hopefully the link to my Photobucket account will work.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMZoiSVZlkTL72UxkytkACd32zLhsecsyjZbHDB" rel="nofollow - AF1QipMZoiSVZlkTL72UxkytkACd32zLhsecsyjZbHDB

Posted By: Gizmo456
Date Posted: Dec/29/2018 at 2:46pm

Negative. The link doesn't work.

Posted By: Jmerican
Date Posted: Dec/29/2018 at 3:05pm

Air cooled Porsche 911 has had dry sump since the ‘60s. On street cars. They stay primed, have thermostatic controlled cooler circuits... yes they have tricky oil fill routines, and can accumulate a bit of oil in the crankcase while stored or even shut down a few days, hence the puff of smoke on start up. But they work well. Think lightweight check valves where needed.

Posted By: i6cj7
Date Posted: Dec/29/2018 at 3:07pm

i can post the email that Aviaid sent if yall would like to read it. Quote was $3k for a 4 stage complete system.

Why is priming a drysump more imperative than a wet sump before startup? To that end wouldn't an accusump plumbed in negate the need for priming? Though I'm not sure I've seen an accusump on a drysump system?

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Dec/29/2018 at 4:31pm

Lets try this one:

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Dec/29/2018 at 4:44pm

i6cj7 wrote:

i can post the email that Aviaid sent if yall would like to read it. Quote was $3k for a 4 stage complete system.

Think about the -an hose ends @ $40/ea, stainless hose @ $10/ft, crankshaft mandrel, pulleys, belt, remote filter adapter, custom brackets (none made specifically for AMC) and tank if that is not in the quote. Then you have to relocate your stock alternator mount. If you have a dry sump system you CAN prime, but you can NOT with a wet sump system, so that is one of the benefits of the dry sump system over a wet sump. You certainly can choose to not prime a dry sump system after it has been sitting for a while....caveat emptor

Posted By: i6cj7
Date Posted: Dec/29/2018 at 7:23pm

the quote from avaiad was for a complete system, tank, pump, pan, mount, remote filter etc.. I'll try and post the list they didn't say anything about relocating the alternator so i can't speak on that .

Posted By: i6cj7
Date Posted: Dec/29/2018 at 8:37pm

[QUOTE=Coloradoamx]Lets try this one:

[/QUOTE

Nice thanks for the video, do you have a build thread on your engine and sump system.?]

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Dec/29/2018 at 9:40pm

I didn't do a build thread on the engine. The engine was the result of collecting the right parts over a few years to build a Trans Am spec destroked 304. I bought an excellent 360 cid service block and destroked crankshaft from Adam Tarr (he's on the forum) and collected a few other necessary parts over a period of years and sent them all to Barry Allen in West Virginia. I think my engine was the 3rd or 4th Trans Am engine he's built. Diamond pistons, K1 rods, T&D shaft rockers, and Barry's touch on the heads and intake. 1.710 exhaust valves and 2.08 intake valves. Barry also spec'd the dry sump pump and fabricated the brackets for the pump. The cam is Barry's propritary design. I bought the dry sump pump, pan and remote filter mount from Aviaid. Great people to work with by the way. I started out with the dry sump tank mounted inside the car, but the original Trans Am spec required that the tank be "forward of the firewall." That's why I eventually did the work to be able to mount it in the same place as the real Trans Am Javelin. The whole effort setting up the engine for dry sump was a really interesting project for me, especially learning the issues associated with dry sump, and I'm still learning. It seems pretty straightforward, but I had to learn a few things; the height of the tank in relation to the pump, venting the tank properly to maximize vacuum scavenging, the different sizes of the hose required for pick-up vs return, etc. The pump also needs to be spec'd for the engine. Aviaid and others have a plethora of different pumps, so listen to your engine builder when it comes to sizing the pump.

https://public.fotki.com/Coloradoamx/barry-allen-ta-engine/ta-engine/dry-sump-plumbing-2.html" rel="nofollow">

https://public.fotki.com/Coloradoamx/barry-allen-ta-engine/ta-engine/trans-am-javelin-5-ltr.html" rel="nofollow">

https://public.fotki.com/Coloradoamx/barry-allen-ta-engine/ta-engine/5-ltr-engine-install-2.html" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Dec/30/2018 at 10:31pm

Dry sump oiling...worth watching. Covers priming the system too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StS0UKVhEGE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StS0UKVhEGE

Posted By: i6cj7
Date Posted: Dec/30/2018 at 11:12pm

good video, so if the tank is lower than the pan, wouldn't that keep it from gravity feeding back through the pump? On a car that might be harder to do. But with the height of a jeep it seems feasible. Unless there's a reason it can't be lower than the oil pan?

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Dec/30/2018 at 11:39pm

The bottom of the tank should be even or slightly higher than the pump to allow for gravity prime of the pump. Think about all the oil running back into the tank after you shut down the engine. The pump will lose prime. This is in the instructions of all dry sump systems.

Posted By: i6cj7
Date Posted: Jan/03/2019 at 1:50am

Gotcha that makes sense Colorado. Maybe a nrw thread should be started but what are some mods or things that should be done to an Amc block for drysump? Aviaid suggested a 4 stage, so at least one scavenge pump would should pull from the lifter valley i assume? I assume this is probably more important if the engine will have a turbo

Posted By: Coloradoamx
Date Posted: Jan/03/2019 at 9:50am

I have a 4 stage pump for my engine; three off the pan, and one pressure. You should probably discuss this with your engine builder for your particular application. Mine is a road race engine, yours is going to be very different. Aviaid will tell you the same thing...talk to your engine builder, especially in regards to spec'ing out the pump...not all 4 stage pumps are the same.