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OIL PATH AMC DISTRIBUTOR GEAR OILING

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: http://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=95506
Printed Date: Sep/18/2019 at 12:23am


Topic: OIL PATH AMC DISTRIBUTOR GEAR OILING
Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Subject: OIL PATH AMC DISTRIBUTOR GEAR OILING
Date Posted: Jul/25/2018 at 10:58pm
Something I'm working on, decades of discussions, part pictures, and descriptions,
but think I have yet to see a section view line drawing showing the
AMC V8 DISTRIBUTOR DRIVE GEAR OILING OIL FLOW PATH...
The apparent "Achilles Heel" of successful aftermarket AMC Part Manufacturing and Fitment...
Sure do miss having working 3D AutoCad software...
07-31-18 Drawing Updated R-4 - Add Rear Cam Journal Oil Vent Hole, etc
09-03-18 Dwg Updated R-5 - Show "non-stock" Sprocket Front Groove(s) Oil.
Feedback appreciated... 

Rev-5 Version 09-04-18


1st Version 07-26-18




Line Drawing & picture showing OIL NOTCH in back of TIMING GEAR



Here is a very good VIDEO graciously made with considerable effort by 401MATCOUPE
which presents a clear visual of the oiling and the "questionable" (non-stock apparently)
Grooves in the Front Face of aftermarket Cam Mounted Timing Chain Sprockets.

Video also mentions the importance of the Crank Oil Slinger (crank oil shedding).

Visible Oil flow volume may indirectly "support" reasoning for Drain Back Modifications
that can be done to the inside of the Timing Chain Cover "Ridge" and/or
the Front Crank Main Bearing Cap (increased drain back clearance gap):



Add - Overall AMC Block Oil Circuit Diagram:




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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video




Replies:
Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Jul/26/2018 at 2:05am
Nice of them to have that method of positive gear lubrication. Many engines just hope that enough oil gets splashed on the gears to keep them happy. AMC thought ahead on this one. 

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'66 Marlin: 327/T10/3.54 Twin Grip
'72 Wagoneer: 360/TH400/3.31
'73 Ambassador: 360/TF727/3.15
'77 Hornet: 232/TF904/2.73
'84 Eagle: 258/TF998/2.35


Posted By: Rebel Machine
Date Posted: Jul/26/2018 at 6:18am
Nice illustration!

Don't forget the oiling grooves in the timing gear that sprays oil between the timing gear and fuel pump eccentric.

-Steve-


Posted By: amx600rr
Date Posted: Jul/26/2018 at 6:33pm
That Looks Great!   

Only minor point is the "Start point in the Cam Journal is "Up" around the 11 oclock position (when keyway at 12 oclock) when the oil passage in the Timing gear is at 6 oclock   You show it at 6 oclock on the cam journal.  The flow looks dead on.  (And thank you for leaving out the "slinger grooves" that are stealing the oil volume and causing the problem)

jerry




Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Jul/26/2018 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by Rebel Machine Rebel Machine wrote:

Nice illustration!

Don't forget the oiling grooves in the timing gear that sprays oil between the timing gear and fuel pump eccentric.

-Steve-


Yea, these slots that I braze shut.  The worst one is right at the transfer slot.

https://flic.kr/p/JnKVZJ" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/JnKVZJ" rel="nofollow - IMG_4417 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/149168736@N07/" rel="nofollow - Rick Jones , on Flickr
https://flic.kr/p/JnKW1W" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/JnKW1W" rel="nofollow - IMG_4420 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/149168736@N07/" rel="nofollow - Rick Jones , on Flickr


Posted By: Rebel Machine
Date Posted: Jul/27/2018 at 6:21am
I modify them as well. I weld them up, have it machined flat then put two shallow grooves in away from the keyway and oiling feed areas.

-Steve-




Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jul/27/2018 at 8:54pm
Could someone be so kind to post a Picture of the Front Side of
a known STOCK 1969 AMC V8 Cam Timing Chain Sprocket / Gear?

Thanks for the comments, working on revising the drawing.

Considered showing the front Timing Gear "oil slinging grooves" but...
wanted to avoid "clutter" and show only Distributor Gear Oiling Path
and I fail to remember seeing those Grooves in stock OEM AMC Timing Gears
but no longer have old used stock parts on hand for reference or pictures.


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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Jul/27/2018 at 10:06pm
It is the bottom one with no notches and missing nylon teeth.

http://theamcforum.com/forum/timing-chain-gears-question_topic67102_page1.html

This is the factory heavy duty one that didn't have nylon gears.
 photo 017_zpsweb4lfr0.jpg



Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jul/27/2018 at 10:20pm
Thanks! So Stock OEM had no "slinger slots"... but the Heavy Duty did... hmmm...

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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Jul/27/2018 at 10:38pm
Yes but, they were very small.  The after market slots are way too big.  The True Roller brand changed and now they have way to big of slots too.


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jul/28/2018 at 4:48pm
Drawing tweaked, revised, per comments, and added to original Post.
Revised drawing also posted here since page 2...
Never fails, revised 2nd time, added 360 deg Oil Groove in #1 Cam Journal.
Again, Rev-3, 360 Oil Groove can be in EITHER #1 Cam Bearing and/or Journal...
07-31-18 Rev-4, Only 2 Keys, Add Rear Cam Journal Oil Vent Hole, etc.

Rev-4 Version:



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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: amx600rr
Date Posted: Jul/28/2018 at 10:11pm
Great job!!!


Posted By: Dave Z
Date Posted: Jul/29/2018 at 6:40am
Can this be made to be a "sticky"?

Dave Z


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jul/29/2018 at 1:06pm
Thanks all, added very good VIDEO made by 401MATCOUPE to the original Post and still tweaking drawing.

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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: amx600rr
Date Posted: Jul/29/2018 at 6:30pm
Can you believe how much oil is being dumped/lost at the cam timing gear in that video!  It looks like an open faucet.....



Posted By: Rebel Machine
Date Posted: Jul/29/2018 at 6:46pm
Are there really three woodruff keys? I remember only two.

-Steve-


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jul/29/2018 at 10:40pm
Rebel Machine... Ah ha!, you are Correct afaik... Just fail to recall how 2 keys hold 3 pieces!...

Yes!... Yikes!... Those Timing Chain Sprockets Grooves are hemorrhaging Oil!...

Oil Pump moves only a certain volume of oil, pressure results from volume vs loss...


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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jul/30/2018 at 1:46pm
The "other side of the coin"...
Guess while we're at it, this also impacts Distributor Drive Gears.
Correct interface between Distributor Shaft and Oil Pump Gear Shaft...
Wish I still had some known factory original parts to measure...
Wonder if Matt at BullTear has any original AMC Engineering Drawings of this area?
An AMC rebuild will replace Oil Pump Gears and often the Distributor.
Resulting in the mating of two new aftermarket non-stock items with possibilities
of incorrect dimensions and/or fit or interference in the below circled areas.
Compounded even further when the Timing Chain Cover is replaced. 
Square Corners can run up against radius of machining preventing proper engagement.
Causing Oil Pump, Distributor, and Distributor Drive Gear problems... And...
this interface is "hidden" once the Distributor Drive Gear is installed on the shaft!
All new parts must be on-hand and trial assembled well before doing final assembly.
Your all's thoughts? 




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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jul/31/2018 at 11:10am
Drawing Revised -4, Only 2 Keys, Add Rear Cam Journal Oil Vent Hole, etc.

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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: MacGyver
Date Posted: Jul/31/2018 at 7:18pm
I'd really like to see 401MATCOUPE's video, but all I get is a red X...

Am I missing a plug-in or piece of software to view it??
(Sorry.. Not very computer savvy...)

Or is it viewable on another site somewhere??


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jul/31/2018 at 11:36pm
YouTube, search "AMC V8 Cam Timing/Distributor Gear Oiling"
by Kenny Peterson     Feb 21, 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QELbRRnEJs


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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: MacGyver
Date Posted: Aug/01/2018 at 6:10pm
Wow!!!

Thank you for the link!!

And thank you Kenny, for making that video!!


Posted By: Rebel Machine
Date Posted: Aug/01/2018 at 6:48pm


Posted By: bobsterfl
Date Posted: Aug/02/2018 at 12:22pm


Posted By: bobsterfl
Date Posted: Aug/02/2018 at 12:25pm
Oops.  First, thank you for posting this information.  Just one final somewhat related thought from my own bad experience.  If you use some kind of washer to shim the end play in the distributor, make sure that whatever size washer you use has an outside diameter SMALLER THAN the root diameter of the distributor gear.  I made that mistake and tore up a perfectly good set of gears by using too large a washer OD.


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Aug/04/2018 at 3:12pm
Yes, thanks, if shimming Distributor Endplay the OD of the Shim must be less than the Gear Root Diameter.

Her's a random "sideways" crazy thought...
Wonder what an AMC V8 Gear and a Small Block Chevrolet Distributor Gear look like side by side?
Wonder if the Shaft Size is the same, tooth count etc...

EDIT: some surfing found these dimensions, unconfirmed:
EDIT: updated with info from bobsterfl - Thanks !

DISTRIBUTOR SHAFT DRIVE GEAR (s)

0.491" Dia. = AMC Distributor Shaft, Delco & ? Type
 ( 13 ) = Number of Gear Teeth
1.040" = Gear Teeth Outside Dia.
0.785" = Gear Teeth Root Dia.
0.620" = Gear Teeth Length

0.491"?Dia. = SBChev Distributor Shaft  (update 10-27-18)
 ( 13 ) = Number of Gear Teeth
1.25x" = Gear Teeth Outside Dia.
1.0xx" = Gear Teeth Root Dia.
0.71x" = Gear Teeth Length


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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: bobsterfl
Date Posted: Aug/06/2018 at 7:18pm
OK, I just went out in the garage and measured an OEM distributor gear that I have, and here are the dimensions I measured: (All +/- based on my cheap dial caliper)

Gear OD:   1.040" 
Root Diameter:  .785"
Gear length: .620"

Hope this helps.

Bob


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Aug/21/2018 at 5:05pm
Thought no harm adding this overall AMC Block Oil Circuit Diagram here:
( guess this drawing does appear to show the Timing Chain Sprocket Front Face Oil Groves )




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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: amx600rr
Date Posted: Aug/21/2018 at 6:47pm
And it left off the fuel pump eccentric and distributor drive gear so it doesn't show the oil feed passage to the drive gear..... but shows all that WASTED oil slinging out to the timing chain and starving the Distributor gear. 
Jerry




Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Aug/21/2018 at 9:02pm
Yep, agree, that video shows it plain as day...
Right now I am bumming out because I no longer have parts and
am unable to find a picture of a Timing Cover on a Block without the Oil Pan on the Block
so I can get a visual of the Timing Cover & #1 Crank Bearing Cap
and resulting Oil Drain Back restrictions or limitations, if any... 


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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Oct/28/2018 at 1:09am
Found some very interesting AMC Traco Trans Am Engine info in of all places a 1st Gen Camaro Forum...
Like a not previously seen Oil Drain Back Hole Addition Mod to the Cylinder Heads ( pic )...




And this interesting post by CRG Forum member Pigpen, a former Traco Employee:

"TRACO (Jim & Frank) didn't actually become famous because of Chevys or for that matter AMCs.

Yes the Javelin engines put out a little more than the same CID Chevys, but the early AMC track engines could not stand the corners without starving the oil pickup, so there were many not so spectacular blown engines.

There's a lot to be said about the compact design of the small block Chevy, the design facilitated oil return flow from the upper portion of the engine to the oil pan, and there were not a lot of places for the oil to get trapped.

Small block Fords and AMC's had a lot more room in the lifter valley and around the crank, so oil tended to get trapped. The ultimate answer for the AMC's was to run "Dry Sump".

Another interesting difference was the Cyl Head design, Chevy heads had better flow characteristics and required less valve lift than the AMC's, so Chevy cams took far less punishment.

For the bottom end though, the AMC's were very strong through the main bearing area, where Chevys were prone to main web cracking.

Each engine has goods and bads, the trick is enough power and lasting through the entire race."

Pigpen


And here's pics from Eddie Stakes page showing one possible Timing Cover Drain Back Mod:




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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: Rebel Machine
Date Posted: Oct/28/2018 at 6:54am
Originally posted by PHAT69AMX PHAT69AMX wrote:

Yep, agree, that video shows it plain as day...
Right now I am bumming out because I no longer have parts and
am unable to find a picture of a Timing Cover on a Block without the Oil Pan on the Block
so I can get a visual of the Timing Cover & #1 Crank Bearing Cap
and resulting Oil Drain Back restrictions or limitations, if any... 



I took this pic when I first got my Canton pan. This photo was taken looking straight down along the back side of the timing case into the pan after I beat the front of the pan flatter to align better with the timing case.



Pan to timing case fitment looking at back side of timing case.




Here's the pan to main #1 clearance.





Posted By: 401Ambo
Date Posted: Oct/28/2018 at 7:29am


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'72 401 Ambassador wagon

'69 pro-Street AMX (in-progress)


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jan/23/2019 at 9:22am
Just a middle aged hobbyist Hot Rodder guy.  Had a '69 AMX from 1985 to 2014.
Paid shop to do 1st motor rebuild.  Self-assembled the next three.
Web active since about 1995.  Not my ideas, those of many others.
Collected many little "Oil" things that can be done.
Mandatory?  Doubtful.  Helpful?  Maybe.
In no way an endorsement, just a compilation.
Quite a bit here really once all typed up.
Sure there are more, will edit / add as needed.
Kinda 2 categories:
- Do things to what is already there
- Add, change, replace things

AMC V8 Oil System Checks and Modifications

Obvious
- Cam, Crank, & Rod Bearing Clearances to AMC SPEC
- Pick-Up to Pan Clearance to Spec

Lifters
- ? Correct FIT Lifter to Bore, .904 Lifter OD and Lifter Bore ID
- ? Lifter internal design, oil volume passed
- ? Restrictor Push Rods

Rods
- ? Bearing Oil Squirter Notch at Rod / Cap Joint

Oil Pump
- Deburr New Pump Gears and SHAFT SLOT to prevent
  any damage to shaft hole in Timing Cover
- Temporary Assemble New Oil Pump Gear and Actual
  Distributor that will be used for Final Assembly
  w/o Drive Gear to Confirm NO BINDING between
  Pump Gear Shaft Slot & Distributor Shaft Drive Blade
- "Parkman Mod" ? at bottom of Pump Gear Pocket for "anti-surge"
- enlarge / port match Round Outlet Hole in pump cavity pocket
- use late angled cover rather than early 90 cover
- block off filter bypass, or new cover with out
- change threaded filter Adapter for one that fits larger later filter
- inspect Pressure Relief Plunger Passage for finish and size
- soften / blend oil passage intersection corners where possible

Oil Pan
- ? run approx 1 extra Quart, more than 5, less than 6
- ? aftermarket larger Aviad oil pan, but significant cost

Block
- port match Block Front Ports to Gasket / Timing Cover
- confirm / clean drilled passage from pump up to top center oil galley
- blend / soften internal oil galley intersection corners where possible
- 3/8 Pipe Plug - SHALLOW, Pass Side Front of Block
- confirm full drill through Main Saddles up to Lifter Galley
- inspect oil pan rail suction passage
- Pick-Up, confirm no galley obstruction once screwed into pan rail
- ? add ~1/8 oil drain holes in lifter valley, or others ?
- ? Chamfer / Blend 2 Front Oil Drain Holes ?

Drainback
- deburr / blend lifter valley drain back corners
- ? Modify bottom of Timing Cover at Front Bearing Cap "gap" area
- ? Traco Mod, small hole drilled through between Pushrod Holes in Heads

Heads
- inspect / blend / ? enlarge ? cylinder head drain back holes
- No umbrella seals, machine valve guides for Perfect Circle Valve Stem Seals

Cam
- Correct Cam Bearing Installation Oil Hole Size & Location
- confirm front snout stack-up oil passages
- Cam Sprocket, ? Front Face Slinger Grooves, size and quantity ?
- Full Groove front most bearing and/or journal
- bleed hole rear most bearing journal
- Rear Freeze Plug installed depth

-------

And am I seeing things ?
You mean to tell me the new "better than anything before or since" Chevrolet LS V8 Motors have an Oiling Circuit that is more like the AMC !, that being the Oil Pump is now in the Front with a longer Suction Side and it oils the Lifters FIRST and the MAINS are LAST !  Am I seeing things !




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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Jan/23/2019 at 3:40pm
Strikingly similar except for the path at the block rear of the lifter galleries. This would provide even oil pressure in both galleries.
The bypass line familiar to everyone is used to ensure pressure front and rear on the right gallery.
The LS is a bit better on the supply side with the "ring" oil gallery - my opinion.
The suction side - the shorter AMC version gets my vote.

The left gallery on the AMC with so little flow was always the first side to build up any "contamination" and the lifters seem to always stick on this side first. 


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jul/22/2019 at 1:17am
Well look what I stumbled upon on the Holley / MSD / all else they now own Web Site...
in their Troubleshooting Techniques area... "Modifying AMC oiling for performance"
hmm.., any of you all seen this already ?

https://www.holley.com/support/troubleshooting_techniques/#AMCModify" rel="nofollow - https://www.holley.com/support/troubleshooting_techniques/#AMCModify


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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: Jul/22/2019 at 1:49pm
Looking at the picture that Phat posted and came from Traco showing holes drilled in the heads between the pushrod pass through holes. My thought is they only help when the amount of oil in the rocker area is deep enough to flow into those holes, which is what? Maybe a quart or more in each rocker area??  But if the engine is running 7 or 8 quarts, no problem.


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70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jul/24/2019 at 2:58am
THANKS TO REBELMACHINE, 401AMBO, 67 MARLIN, AND ALL OTHERS WHO HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THIS THREAD !

Yes, what White70Javelin SST said, I wondered the same thing...
72POS has videos posted on his FaceBook page of his highly modified AMC race motor
running and looking down in the Valve Cover Breather Holes and you would NOT BELIEVE
the amount of OIL circulating around inside those Valve Covers !
Those 2 Oil Drain Back Holes on the corners of the Heads must just be very restrictive relatively.
And they drain into the Lifter Valley -NOT- the Oil Pan...
and the "path" from head to valley is kinda of a more Horizontal flow path than vertical...
Plus all Hydraulic Lifters are -NOT- created equal and who knows just how much
volume of OIL is pumped up top by whatever brand current replacement lifter from the myriad of manufacturers
compared to the volume of oil pumped up onto the heads by stock original AMC Hydraulic Lifters ?...


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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video




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