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Distributor Not Turning

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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=94137
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 2:47pm
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Topic: Distributor Not Turning
Posted By: Bandana
Subject: Distributor Not Turning
Date Posted: May/13/2018 at 12:59pm
Driving back from a show yesterday and my car stutters a bit and stalls out. I coasted into a lot and proceeded to look for the problem. At first every time I'd hit the key it would act like it wanted to fire so I figured it was getting spark and thought fuel. Nope, the fuel pressure was normal and the squirters were squirting. Back to spark, checked the spark which at first seemed  quite weak (for an MSD) but was there. After checking at a couple other plug wires the spark about went away... Began thinking the 6AL  was bad. Then we popped the dist cap and turned the engine over. Rotor cap made a few moves like it wanted to turn but then would not turn at all.....

While 10-11 years old in age, the entire MSD system (including the billet distributor) and all of the engine components have maybe 1000-1500 miles on them. Timing chain is a double roller.

Any thoughts on what could be wrong? - And why? I don't think timing chain since it is A) fairly new and a double roller and B) the engine turns over as normal, not free wheeling as if the chain was broke. If the bronze dist gear was stripped I would think it would have been felt before a total failure? Same with a cam problem. I'm thinking the roll pin holding the  bronze gear may have sheared and will proceed to pull the dizzy to see. If it did I sure hope it will slide out with the dizzy as it will be a female canine to fish out. Be interested in any thoughts or experiences???



Replies:
Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: May/13/2018 at 2:14pm
Pulling the distributor is step one,
probably the gear got lunched.

Hopefully some of the guys who have been through this will post what they did to flush all the crap out of their engine if that's the case.




-------------
71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX
some Jeeps and some Fords


Posted By: ccowx
Date Posted: May/13/2018 at 2:53pm
I am also likely to think it is the gear has let go. Have you found the timing has shifted lately? It seems that as the gear disintegrates over time that the timing will lose about 10 degrees before it finally just fails. You should count yourself lucky, I had the mother of all misfires and had a muffler blow wide open like a ripe banana.

As for fishing out the bits of broken gear, probably not as much of an issue as you might think. The larger chunks will have ended up in the pan. They are likely too big to go through the screen, so ok there. As for the shavings from the slow wear, it has probably already been caught in the filter. I also like to use a magnetic drain plug, so hopefully you have done that.

I simply pulled the distributor and replaced the cam gear as well. Don't just replace the distributor gear or the now damaged cam gear will destroy that one as well in fairly short order. To clean it out I changed the oil/filter, used a high detergent light weight oil for a few minutes of running and then change it all again, back to whatever you normally run.

Yes, you could tear down the entire engine but you might be surprised at how tolerant it is of this kind of abuse. This is why you have a filter and screen. Besides, this has likely been a gradual process, so it has been slowly eating the bits for miles. If it was going to have a bearing failure as a result it probably would have done so by now. If it fails in a few miles then you would have had to rebuild it anyway.

I hope that helps!

Chris

PS: It goes without saying you need to find the reason why it did what it did. Probably oil supply to the gear, so you will be pulling your timing cover and timing chain anyway.

PPS: I have not used the bronze gears but perhaps that is why it went? The good news is that bronze shavings are softer and easier on the bearings. One of the reasons to use one if I recall correctly. I am not sure the longevity is very good though, even when things are right.    




Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/13/2018 at 9:07pm
I had just finished a 270 mile round trip to and from a car show most of it driving 65-70 on the interstate with no perceived issues - right up until the engine sputtered and died. Thats one of the reasons I'm guessing a sheared pin instead of a destroyed gear. That plus the fact that this engine doesn't have many miles on it.

Dumb question but I was always under the impression that the cam gear on all engines was integral with the cam - cut into the cam itself??? Are the cam gears on AMCs replaceable??

My understanding on bronze distributor gear use is that you can not use the same material on both distributor gear and cam gear. With the old OEM cams being cast / forged steel you could use a hard billet steel distributor gear but since most aftermarket cams are made from billet steel these days you needed to used a dissimilar softer metal. Is this not the case?

I'll find out this week when I get a chance to pull the distributor out what i have. Till then is all assumptions, but I like to think through the possibilities before hand. Whatever the problem is, finding out why it occurred is the big factor. The fellow that just had my car for a couple months working on it removed the added oil line in the valley. I was under the impression this was just adding unnecessary oil to the bearings? Could it also have been putting oil to the front of the cam and by removing it resulted in the distributor gear failure?? I've not seen the line or understand exactly why it was added.


Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: May/13/2018 at 9:19pm
The cam gear slides onto the end of the gear, as does the fuel pump cam.

So it's replacable.

If you have one worn out distributor gear the other needs to be replaced at the same time.


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71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX
some Jeeps and some Fords


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/13/2018 at 9:22pm
Slides onto the cam?


Posted By: Fluffy73
Date Posted: May/13/2018 at 10:25pm
Slides onto the cam.  Ditto with the fuel pump eccentric. Thumbs Up

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I am genetically incapable of being Politically Correct.


Posted By: The Anti Chrysler
Date Posted: May/13/2018 at 11:50pm
What exactly is stopping you from pulling the distributor and inspecting it?


Posted By: ccowx
Date Posted: May/14/2018 at 12:05am
You can pull the timing gear/chain, pump eccentric, oil slinger and cam gear without removing the camshaft itself. Just pull the timing cover and you are good. No need to pull the intake or any valve gear.

As for pulling the distributor, just disconnect the wiring and hold down and lift it out. I would take a picture of the rotor so you can get it back in the right position. I would also look down the hole and see where the slot for the oil pump shaft is. You may need to fiddle with that to get it right, since the distributor is going to rotate about 1/6th of a turn or so when you put it back in. You may even want to take a picture of the rotor both in fully seated position and also once it has rotated on it's way out. Probably helpful when reinstalling it. Even if you pull the timing cover, the pictures will help because the rotor orientation will be the same if you do not disturb the crankshaft position.

Chris

PS: I had an oil line like you and it did not harm the gear at all. I would check the oiling passages to it, since you are going to have to remove it anyway.

PPS: Pulling the distributor takes about 5 minutes. I personally would not do well with waiting for a week to see the issue!


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/14/2018 at 7:23am
Correct me if I’m wrong but at this point there’s no need to worry about rotor orientation since the engine has been turned over with the distributor not moving?   I may get around to pulling the distributor sooner but the next 36 hours or so are supposed to be dry and I’ve got tons of outdoor work to get at. Wednesday is going to be a rainout here and was going to have a buddy come over to give me a hand.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/14/2018 at 7:43am
If you replaced one or both dizzy gears that could be the issue. Need to be a matched set. I'd get one from Bulltear since they know AMC engines better than most and don't just sell whatever is on the market.

As long as the passages in the big timing gear line up with the oil passage on the cam (sometimes they don't, or there is casting flash in the groove on the timing gear) you should be fine as far as oiling. No oil line or hole in the plug behind the gear is necessary. Won't hurt if it makes you feel better... as long as line/hole aren't too big, could reduce overall oil pressure then. The stock oiling system should be fine, but as stated, the grooves in the timing gear don't always line up. Not sure if the cam companies or timing gear manufacturer aren't putting them in the right place, but easy to fix with a grinder.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/14/2018 at 8:58am
Engine was already built when I got it so not sure what was done but I was checking the paperwork I got with the car and it looks like a distributor gear was bought a year after the engine was built and it's an iron gear not a bronze gear as I thought. The papers show I have an Edlebrock hydraulic flat tappet cam and a year later a MSD iron distributor gear was bought - and presumable installed.....
Of course now the question is why was another gear installed a year after the engine build???



Posted By: ccowx
Date Posted: May/14/2018 at 9:13am
You are absolutely right, it does not matter at this point what happens with distributor orientation! Yes, I feel a bit stupid.....

As for buying the new gear a year after the engine build, it does make one wonder. I would take off the timing cover and replace both gears and at the same time check the oiling passages. Also, there have been issues with new timing covers that may have contributed, so that is worth a look also.

Chris


Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: May/14/2018 at 5:01pm
The factory did not use brass distributor gears.
The MSD Ready to Run PRO Billet Dist. I put in the White70 has an iron gear. That distributor has well over 10K miles in the engine.
I bought a 2nd MSD Pro Billet RTR distributor for another engine. It came with an iron gear.

I wouldn't put a brass one on it.

Make sure the dist. fits properly and has free play. A gasket is required between the dist. and the timing case.

If you find the gear is gone, you might wish to check the oil pump too, as improper dist install will push the oil pump gears into the plate on the bottom of the pump.


-------------
70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/15/2018 at 8:38pm
Well I got the dizzy out tonight and it doesn't look pretty. First off it "did" have a brass gear..... which is quite destroyed as you can see in the pictures.. My next problem is that I have a CSR electric water pump which also serves as the timing chain cover and it is being a female canine to get off.... I have all the bolts out but the damn thing is really glued on with sealant. Probably need to pull the radiator - tomorrow - to get some room to work and try to pry it off .... I'm afraid what I am going to find when I do...







Posted By: Airdrie AMX
Date Posted: May/15/2018 at 9:53pm
That sucks! If that happened to me no question the engine would come out for a teardown and clean up. If i'm reading this right this is the second gear to go in this engine, all that trash has gone through the bearings.
I put a MSD billet dist in my 401 about 10 years ago and compared the MSD gear to the oem one and the gear pitch is noticeably different I'm pretty sure its in my toolbox I'll post a pic of an oem one beside it its not even close.

-------------
72 amx javelin 401 4spd


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 6:14am
The problem may just be a non-matched set of gears, but could very well be alignment of the timing cover. The cover aligns the dizzy to the cam gear, so if it's off it will continually chew up gears. The idea behind the bronze gear is it will "wear into" the cam gear. But it often doesn't. The problem is it's not easy to check gear alignment. Bulltear has a jig they use to check replacement timing covers, but I don't know how you could do it at home. Might be a way, maybe someone who knows can chime in. You might contact Bulltear and see if you could send it to them for checking, how much it would cost if they are willing.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 7:51am
Since the receipts I have showed an iron gear was bought some time back but there was brass gear in it I really don't know how many times this gear has failed. May be the first or one of many. Until I get this darn water pump off I can't go further. I don't know what kind of sealant they used but it sure is stuck... I may wind up going ahead with a tear down of this thing. It burns oil pretty bad for a motor with less than 1500 miles on it and is not getting better so there must be something amiss. Not a great start to the 2018 cruise season. Its beginning to look like this year might be washed out (and expensive)..






Posted By: ccowx
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 8:30am
I hear you on the washed out, expensive cruise seasons! You know, you could just pick up a timing chain cover, bag the electric water pump, replace the distributor gear and go enjoy the car. Plan for a tear down in the fall, buy the parts now and then enjoy the car for the summer.

I would definitely have that water pump cover checked, that may be your issue. It is basically either that or the oiling channels that are killing gears in your engine.

Good luck!

Chris


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 8:45am
That's  a possibility I guess. I really don't see a need for this electric pump. I don't need the little extra Hp they provide and would prefer an OEM style set up anyway. We'll see I guess, depends on what I find when I get it all opened up.




Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 8:52am
You can get a rough check of gear alignment on assembly:
With a dab of grease put a ball bearing in the cam centering hole.
Blue the ball bearing end and trial fit the timing cover.
Through a valley hole move the cam forward to contact the cover.
Take the cover off and put a small center punch mark in the center of the blue mark.
With dividers scribe The OD of the cam gear on the cover.
Install the distributor and place the cam gear in location on a shim that centers the gear to the distributor shaft.
You will get a visual if there is something wrong, cover or gears.




Posted By: The Anti Chrysler
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 11:05am
Bronze distributor gears aren't for street use. They are sacrificial parts meant to be replaced after so many passes down the strip.


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 7:15pm
So, an update after getting it all torn down today. Found a few brass slivers in the timing case but not a whole lot. I did find two things that I am suspect of.

First the cam gear seems to show a good bit of wear - and of course it wasn't caused by the brass gear so I suspect the gear is older than the brass distributor gear and of course were not matched at all. PO may have simply put a brass dizzy gear in without changing the cam gear.


Second item I found is a piece of the timing case that wraps the dizzy shaft is broken off. I suspect it may have been missing for some time as there was no evidence of aluminum pieces in the case and the break looks old. Also what might be a hairline crack on the inside of the hole the dizzy shaft slides through. The shaft still seems to fit tight but I don't like it.



Posted By: ccowx
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 7:54pm
Back to basics! Put on a regular timing chain cover, preferably one without cracks! Replace both cam and distributor gears, flush the engine and change the oil. Drive for the summer and see how it all seems. If it craps out, you were going to rebuild it anyway. If not, enjoy!

Maybe you dodged a bullet, since the brass gear is designed to be less damaging to the engine, so you may be ok. Either your oiling passages or the timing cover were to blame and since you are now obligated to deal with both, your problem will likely go away.

Chris


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 8:30pm
Exactly what I'm thinking. Waiting for Bulltear to give me info on the gears to get them ordered. Been searching tonight for a timing cover .... thought for sure I'd seen them for just over $100 but I'm finding them for $250 -$285... Summit carries one for $165 but the reviews indicate issues with the distributor hole size... and I don't need that headache. Looks like APD has the best prices on covers and gasket kits. I'll call Bulltear in the morning and see what they have for the gears. Their timing cover is about what Kennedy gets($285) and probably the same cover as APD sells for $250.
Once I get all the parts I'll run a couple gallons of K1 through the oil system to flush the pan some put it all together and see what happens.
Wish I could drop the oil pan to clean it up but its a 8 qt Milodon pan and I don't think it can be done with the engine in the car....
 

One of the timing covers I looked at tonight mentioned a pressed in fit oil pump shaft???? I did not think these shafts were pressed fit??


Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 9:03pm
You could put up a wanted ad for a good used cover,
the newer ones are all suspect to me,
though I guess/hope they've improved them since when they were first introduced.

Bulltear is supposed to check the ones they sell for alignment,
so it might be worth it to get it from them if you have to go new.

A local AMC show would be a good place to find used covers,
if there's any around you,
or if there's any local AMC clubs nearby.

Good luck,
glad you got it figured out.




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71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX
some Jeeps and some Fords


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 9:17pm
I saw that on Bulltear about their 100% guarantee on fit. Might be worth paying a bit more for. I don't want to wait to find a used one, I need to get back running. Besides I get tired of trying to deal with people on used parts that want to get 80% of a new part price for some old junk... at least when there are other options.


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 9:42pm
You have to remember that a used original cover that needs a little work is worth more than a crappy new cover that doesn't work. A good used cover that I have reconditioned would cost a bit more than a new one from china. We have had good luck with the newer Crown covers but I still check every one. You have to watch timing sets also because they can cause gear death also. Some sets have been coming in with thicker or off spec. stack height on the cam gear. This will move the drive gear out from the block and cause mesh issues also. Check everything.


-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 11:14pm
Need another "Good" replacement Timing Cover...
AND more importantly "GOOD STOCK" Cam & Distributor Gears... ?
Okay, asking $490 and there's "room to work with".... ya know...
Happen to be or know anyone anywhere near Roanoke, VA?... 

https://roanoke.craigslist.org/cto/d/1974-amc-jeep-gladiator-truck/6580297358.html" rel="nofollow - https://roanoke.craigslist.org/cto/d/1974-amc-jeep-gladiator-truck/6580297358.html

Or check this out, Eastern NC CraigsList,
AMC 360 V8 $100 - 600
AMC V8 Motor Parts and Pieces

Watson and Sons' Jeep Salvage
 Call or text     ( 252) 944-5526
7100 N Boyd Rd Pinetown NC

We have 25 Wagoneers, 12 J trucks, and 6 Chiefs we are parting out.
Lots of good pieces, let me know if you don't see what you need.
Parts sold as is and sales tax is included in the price.
We pull parts for you and can ship.

https://eastnc.craigslist.org/ptd/d/full-size-jeep-parts-sj-fsj/6589485570.html" rel="nofollow - https://eastnc.craigslist.org/ptd/d/full-size-jeep-parts-sj-fsj/6589485570.html

Or an AMC 304 dis-assembled Motor $425 asking Troutman NC....

https://charlotte.craigslist.org/pts/d/jeep-cj-7-motor-transmission/6558565173.html" rel="nofollow - https://charlotte.craigslist.org/pts/d/jeep-cj-7-motor-transmission/6558565173.html

*- BONUS -*
Maybe a good Stock AMC Delco Type DISTRIBUTOR & HOUSING to Re-Build, Re-Curve, Re-Fit, Re-Use...



-------------


Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/17/2018 at 9:07am
Anyone have experience / insight on the quality of the timing covers from APD?

I spoke with Bulltear this morning and apparently they no longer carry the distributor and cam gears.... Any recommendations on where to go for a set???? Are these Crown gears any good?



Posted By: akimmet
Date Posted: May/17/2018 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Bandana Bandana wrote:

Anyone have experience / insight on the quality of the timing covers from APD?

I spoke with Bulltear this morning and apparently they no longer carry the distributor and cam gears.... Any recommendations on where to go for a set???? Are these Crown gears any good?



Lately folks have been using the MSD cam and dist gears with success.

I highly recommend taking off the timing set and inspecting the oiling pasages, aftermarket sets can have blocked or incorrectly placed oiling pasages. If that is the case even a good set of dist gears won't last too long.


Posted By: Airdrie AMX
Date Posted: May/17/2018 at 9:13pm

Here are some pics of 3 different sources of gears as to how different they can be. The first pic is an MSD on the left and an original on the right.
The second pic is another original on the left and the MSD on the right pictured end to end.
The last is another MSD on top and I believe a crown brand pictured end to end.
Pretty big differences in the pitch of the teeth and depth at the root, Mix any of the non oem dist gears with an original cam gear and it's a roll of the dice how it will end up.


-------------
72 amx javelin 401 4spd


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/18/2018 at 8:04am
Thanks for the pictures, yes they certainly do vary alot. I got all my parts ordered yesterday. Got a new timing cover from Bulltear (old one is for sale if anyone feels that chip is inconsequential). Went with the Crown gear set and Felpro gasket/seal kit from Summit.
I could not justify paying $120 for the MSD gear set while the Crown set was $29, especially without hearing any real push for the MSDs. Even the Tech at Summit felt the Crowns would be fine.
Got a bit of clean up to do on the front of the engine today and then I will try to look for any issues with the oiling passages. Then its a wait for parts to arrive - or more specifically the timing cover from Bulltear.....


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 6:37am
Crown is the top supplier of Jeep parts, so they SHOULD be good... 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 8:00am
I bought a set of Crown gears so we'll see I guess. They look pretty well machined. They were coated with some type of cosmoline or something and the cam gear in particular needed to have all of the holes and slots cleaned out good. I could see someone forgetting to do this causing oil flow issues.



Posted By: scott
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 3:36pm
Some good reading here on what to look for in a timing cover:  http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=1678711#post1678711%20" rel="nofollow - http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=1678711#post1678711


Posted By: Bandana
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 6:53pm
Good read, thanks for posting. Ordered some distributor shims today - although I'm still not sure how tight to set this thing. Once they get here and my new cover gets here I'll start seeing how things line up and look. I am guessing that there is no set amount of clearance between the dizzy shaft and the oil pump drive shaft? Basically as long as they don't bind any - plus a bit for good measure?



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