No disc brake options
Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: Suspension, Steering, Brakes & Wheels
Forum Description: What makes it stop, turn, and smooths the ride
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=93823
Printed Date: Apr/23/2024 at 9:05am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: No disc brake options
Posted By: IowaTom
Subject: No disc brake options
Date Posted: Apr/26/2018 at 10:39am
|
The helpful gentleman at Scarebird said I would have to bend part of the steering arms of my '59 Rambler to accommodate their disc setup and I really don't want to do that. http://s530.photobucket.com/user/tomnoller/media/20180420_1546571_zpsgxai1sqp.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Has anyone found another source for AMC discs?
|
Replies:
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/26/2018 at 10:55am
|
I wonder if... the spindle attachment bolt hole pattern is the same for later spindles. If so, you can use 70 on up drum spindles or use 70 on up cut brackets as spacers to slightly space out for clearance. I have a pair of brackets that can be trimmed for where the steering arm would mount, so if the pattern is the same, it can be mounted in between your spindle and strut turn knuckle face. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: Ramblage
Date Posted: Apr/26/2018 at 11:48am
|
Their basic setup will work and no you don’t have to bend the steering arm which is a big no no since it messes with steering geometry. I have the setup on my 59 and 60 big car and bolted right up. ------------- 1960 Customized Land Barge Rambler Super with Dodge 360 & 5spd 1971 Silver Bullet Javelin w/232 Engyne! 1972 Crappy Green Javelin w/401 and AW4, still in the works |
Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: Apr/26/2018 at 5:02pm
| Wonder why the gentleman at Scarebird didn't offer his basic setup... unless it's no longer available. Surely he would have known it'd fit my application. |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/26/2018 at 5:56pm
|
What do you plan on doing to/with it that you'd go to disc? Yeah disc are indeed "better" but............... You'd be amazed at the street rods that get built with good drum brakes. In fact, a 49 Ford that hits the salt flats every year now has AMC front drum brakes on it (and a T5, etc.) In any case, it's REALLY SCARY when someone like that actually recommends BENDING suspension and steering parts. Seriously?? Bend? Hmmm, no way in #%#^ That would worry me about other support. If you would actually have to bend anything to make it fit, I'd go to a different option and not bother with 'em again. Bending will not only change the geometry but will typically weaken those parts as well, especially if bent be someone not familiar with metallurgy. If you go the disc route, work with an AMC person who has done the conversion without hacking, bending and cutting. Parts are made as they are for a reason, not because they had a lot of extra steel or lack of engineers. -------------  http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: rms827
Date Posted: Apr/26/2018 at 6:08pm
What he said. Bending and cutting suspension parts is bad juju. ------------- 1964 AMC Rambler Classic 660 "You can think I'm an idiot, just don't talk to me like I'm one." - Batman |
billd wrote:Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: Apr/27/2018 at 3:53am
|
I totally agree... Runs along the same mentality of; if it doesn't fit, hit it with a bigger hammer. Duh! |
Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Apr/28/2018 at 1:48am
|
i'm generally a fan of drums. you can make them work great. "late model" (lol) drum setups bolt right on -- i used 9 x 2.5" setups from a 70's gremlin. they should clear the steering arms. i did this on 63 and 61 americans; they have a similar design arm that reaches into the wheel. if you want to get fancy you can make them pretty much as good as discs. its old hot-rod technique, i found it in the C H Topping website. here's mine http://sr-ix.com/AMC/1963-Rambler-American/Drums/" rel="nofollow - http://sr-ix.com/AMC/1963-Rambler-American/Drums/ ------------- 1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: Apr/28/2018 at 6:27am
|
Very interesting, Tom! My enthusiasm for drum brakes died when mine faded while coming down a hill in my '57 Stude sedan a number of years ago. There was a stop sign at the bottom and I blew thru it like Steve McQueen in "Bullitt". It was a trouser-chili moment! |
Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Apr/28/2018 at 11:52am
|
People often overlook pad/shoe compound, blame fade on the braking system, spend a bunch of money to fit a different system and end up not much better or worse if they don't select the right pad compound for the application. Fade is essentially a drop in pad/shoe friction because you've exceeded the temperature range of the pads in your application. Solution: Fit pads or shoes with a higher temperature range (typically most economical option) or change the braking system to one that can absorb more energy with less temperature rise to maintain friction coefficient. Energy transfer is most effective with a high delta-T, so a system that works effectively at low temperatures needs to be bigger. That's one reason why OEM's have fit larger diameter discs ... and that small discs don't look right with current trend to 18" or larger diameter wheels. There are a few manufacturers making shoes for both high-performance street use and racing. Porterfield R4-S is their street compound and a much higher temperature range than typical parts store replacements. They also have race compounds for vintage cars racing with drums. If you can't find a suitable disc kit and don't want to develop your own, suggest get a set of R4-S shoes (Porterfield can make virtually any replacement pad or shoe as long as they can source, or you can provide, a suitable backing plate). If fitting a disc kit, suggest to check pad availability to make sure pads are available to suit a wide variety of applications, if planning more than street use. GM D52 or D154 are good economical options with lots of pad options as used in many lower levels of racing and for millions of GM and other cars and trucks (Jeep also used D52 calipers). https://www.porterfield-brakes.com/categories/Brake+Shoe/Performance+Street.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.porterfield-brakes.com/categories/Brake+Shoe/Performance+Street.html Hope this helps,RD |
Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Apr/29/2018 at 1:11am
|
i ran rallies in my drilled drums -- no fade even on the infamous Tepesquet Canyon run, hard (OK hard by Rambler standards). i commuted 100 miles/day, LA to Irvine. no fade, amd they shed water far better than regular drums, comparable to discs. for such an easy mod -- and i never understood why OEMs didn't do it, it's trivial work -- you'd be surprised at how much better they are for so little effort. oversized helps. the 9x2 drums up front are about motorcycle sized, today. the only reason gremlin/hornet/etc 9x2.5 drum setups would be hard to find is that everyone throws them out. ------------- 1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
Posted By: akimmet
Date Posted: Apr/29/2018 at 9:00am
|
Drilled drums were the hot ticket in NASCAR right before modern disc brakes became available. The real problem with drum brakes are people using terrible parts-store replacement shoes, and not bothering to make sure they are assembled and maintained correctly. With high quality shoes and proper adjustment, drum brakes can be surprisingly effective. Sometimes better than some of the terrible under-sized disc brake kits out there. |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Apr/29/2018 at 9:45am
|
The standard size Scarebird discs WILL work. You might have to reverse the sides to move the calipers to hte rear, but that doesn't affect braking. I had Concord brakes on my 63 American (same front end as the 58-60). You can't mount the calipers to the front though. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Apr/29/2018 at 11:32pm
|
hey, sorry billd if i sounded like i was arguing with you. no argument at all, 100% it's a physical cause. but i have seen drums cocked on the hub, badly. pinched on the knurl/step at the protruding stud. i am not implying it's common, but neglect as the most common cause of brake trouble warrants close inspection of hard parts. i would not deign to argue with your experience. ------------- 1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Apr/29/2018 at 11:36pm
frank's observation made me look at your question anew -- precisely, what component interferes with the steering arms? they do look to have a longer bent end than the Americans... if it's the rotor that interferes, well maybe that's the end of that. but as frank points out, you swap the brackets left to right and place the caliper to the rear on the pre-64 Americans, at least, and that solves the interference with that part. it also puts the hoses in a great spot on that chassis at least. ------------- 1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Apr/30/2018 at 6:25am
|
I may have to take my comment that the brakes will work back... I don't know for sure that the rotor diameter isn't an issue on the 50s big cars... but don't think it is. The Previa rotor is 11" in diameter (10.98", 278.9mm). Easy to check -- from center of spindle measure out toward the steering arm. You need about 5-3/4" to clear with no issues. That would give you 1/4" between edge of rotor and steering arm/tie-rod end. That's more than enough, I'd run with as little as 1/8" clearance, but would want at least that.
------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: Ramblage
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 11:22am
Figure I’d post a pic of my setup on my 59 rambler     The steering arm does clear the rotor which is about a 1/2” away from the rotor and it’s with the previa rotors too and celebrity calipers are mounted on the back. ------------- 1960 Customized Land Barge Rambler Super with Dodge 360 & 5spd 1971 Silver Bullet Javelin w/232 Engyne! 1972 Crappy Green Javelin w/401 and AW4, still in the works |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 7:33pm
I've seen guys have trouble putting the wheels back on because the drum was "cocked", stuck on the hub center due to rust and extremely tight fit (rust, too many hammer blows, etc.) I guess anyone paying attention wouldn't let it happen, but hey - we all know that to expect everyone to pay perfect attention is sort of like expecting every kid to do their homework on time. (in my case, the cat barfed on it) LOL ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 7:36pm
|
Ramblage - looks like it was made for it or made that way. Good fit, easily enough clearance with rotors and steering, and the caliper is in a good place. Nice. Now I do have to ask - the bracket seems a bit, well, honestly, thin, to me. Doesn't it flex a bit under heavy braking? Or not? You'd likely know, especially with uneven wear patterns. I guess for as nice as things are - it just seems to me a bit, well, bluntly, thin. But then I can't see the span or other details, either, so it's an opinion based on an incomplete picture and looked at from afar. I do like the clean look in any case. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: Ramblage
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 9:31pm
|
The plate does look kinda flimsy at a 1/4 thick but the pads are wearing evenly and it does brake pretty good under hard stop. Would be nice if it was thicker but it’s doing its job great ------------- 1960 Customized Land Barge Rambler Super with Dodge 360 & 5spd 1971 Silver Bullet Javelin w/232 Engyne! 1972 Crappy Green Javelin w/401 and AW4, still in the works |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 10:09pm
|
Good to hear. Like I said - it does look clean, and the simplicity is great. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/03/2018 at 6:37am
|
All the Scarebird brackets have been 1/4" thick good quality steel. No one has complained about uneven wear or any signs of flexing that I have ever heard of. They had some issues with welds cracking on big heavy cars (like early 60s Ford Galaxies!) with their first design, but quickly remedied that. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: Rambler Dan
Date Posted: May/07/2018 at 8:46pm
|
All great info so far on this as I have a 59 big car I am on the fence weather to convert to disk or rebuild the drum. Seams like disk convert is fairly close in price to rebuild the drums if you have to buy new wheel cylinders, which I do. I have nothing but the drum. Question what are people using for a master cylinder? Keeping stock possible with disk front and drum rear? If not what is the best replacement option. ------------- Dan G. Lancaster, NY 1959 cross country wagon |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: May/07/2018 at 9:17pm
|
For me personally I'd stick with the drum - I'd never mix drum and disk on a single master cylinder. I'd never be comfortable running the exact same pressures at the exact same time on that era car from one master cylinder feed. But that's me - I get really picky about braking action and have to have the correct valves, etc. in place. If I were to decide to convert a car like that, for me, I would have to change to a different master cylinder, and add perhaps a combo valve in the mix to balance things out. I know others do it different and simply tie it all together, but there are reasons the later systems with drum and disk were engineered how they were. I've also been in too many scary situations with unbalanced braking, etc..... That's just my opinions based on my experiences over time. I wonder if I have any old Rambler wheel cylinders around - I have a few odds and ends......... ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: May/07/2018 at 9:22pm
You wouldn't hear of it anyway - unless you work there. Think of it - will it be headline news? Will you be copied in on the calls or messages? If even two or three fail - will you know of it? Sorry, not a great argument. I could say more but won't as it may offend one or two people. I do enough of that anyway. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: May/08/2018 at 3:59am
|
Dan - For what it's worth, on Ramblage's recommendation I got the Scarebird kit (linked below) and it's bolting up fine. Hoping the calipers arrive today and I can get further along. For me, having updated brakes with a dual system m/c is important, since the only crash I've had - so far - was due to a rupture in a brake line in a panic stop. (From then on, I've re-plumbed all the brakes on every old car I've owned.) The kit I got looks very well-made. BTW, the wheel cylinders for our '59s aren't terribly pricey and they're readily available, if you want to stick with drums. http://scarebird.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=95&product_id=55" rel="nofollow - http://scarebird.com/index. and hubs too (but I took my old ones to a machine shop and had them "shaved" to fit)
|
Posted By: Rambler Dan
Date Posted: May/08/2018 at 5:35am
|
Yeah I'm leaning toward the disk conversion but was finding all sorts of conflicting info on fitment. Thanks for the update on the install. I'd like to switch to a dual master if I convert. Which dual master are people using? Also I was finding the wheel cylinders for around $50, which to me for a wheel cylinder is pretty expensive overall. ------------- Dan G. Lancaster, NY 1959 cross country wagon |
Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: May/08/2018 at 5:42am
|
Dan - Frank Swygert had this answer to my same question about the m/c upgrade on my '59: I put a Hornet MC in my 61 American with single reservoir MC years ago. I don't recall now, but think I had to file the mounting holes a bit for it to fit. The stroke and bore is right, you will of course have to change the lines in front. A 70 Hornet/69 American MC would be about right, both with drum brakes. Later Hornet if you have discs up front (Scarebird conversion is a good choice if you don't... assuming a driver since you are willing to deviate from stock). Any 1" bore MC will be fine, regardless of make. I'm running a Ford Ranger power setup on my 63 Classic, but that took some modifications to the pushrod in the booster, and an original 63-66 Rambler power brake bracket.
|
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/08/2018 at 5:44am
|
All but the 75-78 Big Bendix calipers use a 1" bore MC (75-78 BB use a 1-1/8"). So you can use ANY AMC MC, drum or disc/drum. If you use a drum only MC you just remove the residual pressure valve from the front reservoir. The larger reservoir on most disc/drum MCs is there so that even if you never top off the fluid there is enough to stop the car for the life of the pads... provided there are no leaks. It was to dummy the system down, no other reason. I've run a drum MC in a couple cars with front disc conversions with no issues. Fluid level goes down a little as pads wear, but only a little. Check fluid level once a year and you're more than safe, and I put 10-14K a year on the 63 American I drove for 14 years, at least 10 with front disc brakes and a drum MC. I typically use an early Hornet MC because it has the outlets on the right side. you can use a Wilwood MC with outlets on both sides and 1" bore (outlets on unused side are plugged). Right now I have an early 90s Ford Ranger MC on my 63 Classic... discs all around. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: May/08/2018 at 8:09am
You mean you have never seen a car with pads so worn that it pretty much emptied that area? I have. Dummy down? Hardly - safety. When you see pads worn to the backing and rotors cut you'd be daXX glad you have that capacity. And NO, do NOT remove the residual check valve from the "front" reservoir - remove it from the one that FEEDS the front, which is usually the REAR reservoir. The situation on most is that the FRONT feeds the rear brakes and the REAR feeds the front brakes. So, to be SURE you get the right one, remove the residual check valve from the spot that feeds the FRONT brakes. On my drum/drum car I converted to disk, the FRONT reservoir feeds the REAR brakes so I removed the valve from the REAR. That's actually how most of them are. Even drum/drum it's opposite of what you'd think on many master cylinders. Mine is even marked front and rear and the fittings are different sizes. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: May/08/2018 at 3:46pm
|
Ramblage - What did you use to mount the calipers on the adapters? No bolts came with mine and near as I can tell, the threads in the plates are 7/16 18. Using my old hubs, so per his instructions the welds on the adapters face out. My 'usual' caliper bolts with the round hex heads fall right through the caliper holes.
|
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/09/2018 at 5:17am
|
Bill -- thanks for clarifying -- I meant front brake feed, not necessarily reservoir. I know pads CAN be worn down to nothing, but you have to never check the fluid from new pad to worn down to nothing to empty that big reservoir. It can happen, but most "car people" check their brake fluid level at least once or twice a year. Joe Average might not ever check it until something is wrong, that's what I meant by "dummied down" -- it's for those people. I suppose you could have a pad failure or prematurely wear out for some odd reason (in mud a lot?), but for the most part almost anyone on here would check the fluid and top off if needed once or twice before that happened. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: Ramblage
Date Posted: May/09/2018 at 11:38pm
From what I remember the calipers I got didn’t come with the bolts either to where I had to source them from a local salvage yard that had a Chevy celebrity. ------------- 1960 Customized Land Barge Rambler Super with Dodge 360 & 5spd 1971 Silver Bullet Javelin w/232 Engyne! 1972 Crappy Green Javelin w/401 and AW4, still in the works |
Posted By: akimmet
Date Posted: May/10/2018 at 9:20am
Try asking for some some "caliper guide pins" for a Chevy Celebrity at the parts store. Sometimes you have to find out what the parts store is calling the part before they can find it. After a quick look I came up with 2 part numbers, one of them should work. It is more likely Heavy duty caliper bolts are the correct number. Raybestos H5029 (Light/Medium Duty) Raybestos H5030 (Heavy Duty) |
Posted By: Rambler Dan
Date Posted: May/10/2018 at 7:59pm
So I am guessing this is a master that would work? From a 74 hornet? I know I'll have to redo the brake lines and that's no issue. Just making sure I have all the right parts before I order. I've got the previa rotors and Chevy celebrity calipers in the cart already. Also what type of machine work do I. Wed to have done on the hubs? Don't really want to shell out for new hubs ------------- Dan G. Lancaster, NY 1959 cross country wagon |
Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: May/11/2018 at 6:20am
|
Dan - That looks like the one I got with the 1" bore. I'm stopping by my NAPA store today for the bolts and sleeves for the Celebrity calipers. Thanks, Guys!
|
Posted By: Rambler Dan
Date Posted: May/22/2018 at 2:51pm
|
Just about ready to pull the trigger on the disk conversion. One more question. On a 59 will then stock steel wheels still fit? ------------- Dan G. Lancaster, NY 1959 cross country wagon |
Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: May/22/2018 at 5:03pm
| Mine do, Dan. They look like they're stock wheels, too. Mine are 15 inch. |
Posted By: Ramblage
Date Posted: May/23/2018 at 12:42am
|
Running stock 15” wheels on mine also and yes they fit ------------- 1960 Customized Land Barge Rambler Super with Dodge 360 & 5spd 1971 Silver Bullet Javelin w/232 Engyne! 1972 Crappy Green Javelin w/401 and AW4, still in the works |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/23/2018 at 6:38am
|
15" wheels work, 14" should, but don't know for sure. Didn't think 14" were used until the 63 Classic, but looked through TSMs and found that AMC started using 14" wheels in 1958 for V-8 cars, six cylinder used 15" until 63. I've only had pre 63 six cylinder cars, never a V-8. Learn something new even after being in the AMC hobby for a long time! Might have run across that before and just forgot though... oh well!! ------------- Frank Swygert |