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73 Javelin heater connections

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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: HVAC
Forum Description: air conditioning, heater and associated controls
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=93675
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Topic: 73 Javelin heater connections
Posted By: billd
Subject: 73 Javelin heater connections
Date Posted: Apr/17/2018 at 6:10pm
I thought the PO had removed the right vent cable as I never saw one where it belonged - and today while digging to find how some things went together (properly, not how it was when I got it)
I found the cable and bracket tucked up inside the dash. The cable of course is snapped where it makes the transition to the smaller part of the housing from the thicker end part. I think I can repair that, though.........
My REAL question is more along the lines of the actual heater operation. 
I understand the 70 series controls the heater by mixing cold and hot air - want it hot inside, move the lever and it closes down the cold air in the mix. Want it cooler, move the lever and it allows more cool outside air into the mix.
Fine - but what about the heater valve?
Some of you may recall I asked about a proper heater valve for the car. Ross correctly indicated that AMC changed from the valve that screwed into the intake to the valve mounted in the hoses, so I bought that later style hose. 
I'm not ready to take the whole car apart and spend a month replacing the heater core yet but DO want to run proper hoses to the right places and go ahead and put the valve in place and make it "heater core ready".
I can't see how the heater valve was controlled - it's vacuum - but the car has no vacuum controls that I can find..
I went through every paragraph on every page in the "weather eye" part of the TSM - I even looked in the non-70 series areas for clues.
So it uses a vacuum controlled heater valve - fine, great - but what's it hooked to for vacuum??
The levers in the dash only have CABLES. 
Does anyone have a picture of the correct heater hose and valve arrangement, and info on what controls the heater valve?
I can't believe they'd even have a valve in there if there wasn't any means to turn it on and off -there's no vacuum going into the car at all, none, not a single hose. If there's no vacuum going into the car, and there's no hose coming out of the car for a heater valve, well - what the heck MORE is this car missing?
Geesh, hide the air vent cable and control, bypass the busted up heater core, no vacuum lines into the cabin none coming out, and the TSM shows NOTHING other than the air mix doors and cables!!


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Replies:
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/17/2018 at 7:37pm
Been here with my 73... fortunately you found the passenger vent cable and lever. I had no clue as i thought nothing of it, since it was missing when purchased.

As for vacuum to actuate heater valve. There may be a plastic vacuum T where you get the vacuum line routed behind the vent control under the radio, for open and closed positions. The small vacuum line may go down behind the climate control on to a lever control ed vacuum switch... never had heater only but it may be an area to look for just to make sure,

Another area for AC cars, FYI... There is a small vacuum line to the vacuum can at the flap that uses a vacuum switch operated by climate controls, as all my cars had the mix vent for defogging wind screen.

Those are the only areas I can think of to look for any vacuum switches and controls for heater.

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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/17/2018 at 7:45pm
Like I said - no vacuum lines or hoses - not that I can find. 
So need to know what controlled the heater valve - where did the vacuum that goes to the valve come from - is there some sort of vacuum control somewhere in the car, where and what does it look like?
Non-AC cars are likely to be a bit different.
I also have a center section I bought that has the weather eye controls and there's nothing there at all that would or could go to anything to control vacuum - there are only two cables and those go to "doors" or similar - I think........


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Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/17/2018 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

Like I said - no vacuum lines or hoses - not that I can find. 
So need to know what controlled the heater valve - where did the vacuum that goes to the valve come from - is there some sort of vacuum control somewhere in the car, where and what does it look like?
Non-AC cars are likely to be a bit different.
I also have a center section I bought that has the weather eye controls and there's nothing there at all that would or could go to anything to control vacuum - there are only two cables and those go to "doors" or similar - I think........


SORRY, I thought when you mentioned 70 cars, you had an idea where some vacuum routing was to start and could not find where to go.

Not sure if the online vintage manual source given in your wiring thread, has heater and vacuum line info, its worth a shot.

Dltowers may have some good pictures for you as for his vacuum connections are on the firewall and his heater valve.



-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/17/2018 at 8:06pm
The vintage manual thread is hard to follow because of all the spaces (I can't believe people post things like that with SPACES in the names - browsers puke with it) but I did get a page to display and it's basically most of a TSM - and I have a 73 TSM and the heater section literally shows nothing.

So I need photos of where a heater valve is installed the hose routing, and where the heater valve CONTROL is that manages the vacuum. 
I can run vacuum lines - I need to know where the control is, what it is, what it looks like, etc.


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Posted By: JeeperJolene
Date Posted: Apr/17/2018 at 11:39pm
I'm going to have to deal with this soon as well on my 73. Right now,  the heater starts smoking out the dash if you try and turn it on, so either the fan is stuck or there is a nasty short. I peeked in the glove box and I'm not liking what I'm seeing. It's a complete mess.


Posted By: pit crew
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 8:05am
Bill,

I have yet to disassemble a non-AC car but I can give you a rough idea of how they work. The heater control cable moves the blend door so you can control the temperature by mixing outside air with air passing over the core. Water is always flowing through the heater core until the heater control is placed in the OFF position.

Now the magic happens.

In the OFF position air is completely diverted around the heater core and where the control cable attaches to the blend door there is a small metal tab (RED note). That tab in the OFF position depresses a small vacuum switch mounted on the heater box roughly located behind the grab handle on the passenger side.

Manifold vacuum is supplied to that small switch and when the heater control is placed in the OFF position the switch is operated and routes vacuum back out the firewall to the control valve. The control valve operates and coolant flow to the heater core is cut off.

Again, my explanation is based on AC examples but it at least gives you a rough idea of how it works. I searched high and low but I can't come up with a picture of the vacuum switch mounted in the proper position. Sorry.



 


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73 Hornet - 401EFI - THM400 - Twin Grip 20


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 8:26am
The image of the vacuum switch is in perfect position to show how it mounts in regards to the box shown below.

The round metal disc plunger goes against the arm on the flap door, just below where the cable attaches to the door lever,



-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: pit crew
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 8:43am
Oh, I should also mention that when mounting and adjusting that switch you want to position it so the tab is just touching it enough to operate the switch. Some people have mounted the switch hard against the tab and when the cable was operated the tab banged hard on the switch and broke it over time.

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73 Hornet - 401EFI - THM400 - Twin Grip 20


Posted By: 73LevisX
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 10:13am
FWIW,
The vacuum line from that switch, on my '73 Hornet, exits the firewall near the accelerator cable and AC hoses and connects to the "nipple" on the metal vacuum can of the inline heater control valve pictured below. (The heater control valve is plumbed into the heater hose that exits the intake manifold.)




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'73 Hornet X
304/904


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 12:54pm
I take it mine is the only non-AC 73 Javelin that AMC ever produced as no one has seen, worked on, or has experience with non-AC 73s.
Ironic as I want to eventually put AC in this car!

Anyway - thanks as that gives me an idea where to look...... and I'm trying to decide just how far to go with this round of work on the car. Almost all of the dash parts need replacement, the right kick panel is busted up, HUGE screws were run through the trim and into the dash structure meaning I can't put the correct smaller screws in place because the screws the PO put in are likely #10 or 12 (not far from quarter inch)
So I have to remove enough parts to close up the holes in the dash structure so I can mount the trim properly, find a replacement right kick panel, replace the center "pod" as the top is busted out where a light would have gone (or a delete plate, whatever) - there's so much broken and so many huge wrong screws, the heater core is busted, my wife wants heat in the car.......... so not sure where to stop!
The cluster is out and ready to go back in - but I don't have a radio so do I put it back together for a while then take it apart again to put in a heater core and radio?
I figured while I was this far I should at least find out how the vacuum system works and put that part of it back together so when I do the core and radio, that's all I will need to do. 


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Posted By: pit crew
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 1:31pm
Must be luck or lack there of that all the big body Javelins I have worked on were AC cars. Now on a lot of them all the engine bay AC parts were gone but all the "inside" parts were still intact to one degree or another. One of my pet peeves is people who hack off the AC hoses right at the firewall. SIGH.

I hope the information I posted can at least get you started on restoring the heat for your wife.


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73 Hornet - 401EFI - THM400 - Twin Grip 20


Posted By: Mopar_guy
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 2:42pm
I don't know where you guys are coming up with a non A/C car having a water valve because on the 2 non A/C cars I have, neither have one. If you read the TSM on page 12A-2, it says that coolant flows thru the heater core all the time and the air temp is blended with cold air, meaning there's no water valve like an A/C car has.

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" http://theamcforum.com/forum/hemilina_topic95889.html" rel="nofollow - Hemilina " My 1973, 5.7 Hemi swapped Javelin


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 3:12pm
Billd, you may drop santiago a pm, about your need of assistance. He has a 73 Javelin that he is doing resto mod work on. I think it is a non A/C car, so he may have some good details.

He's Italian, but does good work with his translations.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Mopar_guy Mopar_guy wrote:

I don't know where you guys are coming up with a non A/C car having a water valve because on the 2 non A/C cars I have, neither have one. If you read the TSM on page 12A-2, it says that coolant flows thru the heater core all the time and the air temp is blended with cold air, meaning there's no water valve like an A/C car has.


Ya know, I came to that conclusion myself, today............ the TSM not only says nothing about a valve, but there's NO PLACE to mount a vacuum switch anywhere - plus, look at the parts books, or even online "for cars with AC", etc.

I got crazy and decided that since the cluster was out, so many things were broken, missing, and needed fixed, and, since it's SOOOO easy to remove the dash parts on these cars (again, i'd do five of these over ONE Eagle), anyway, the heater box is out, the old core is out, and I found MORE trouble.

First the PO removed the defrost "valve" control cable. I was going over the TSM over and over and over and was wondering how do they do this with two cables, and the heat lever doing nothing when moved from heat to defrost - nothing moved or changed.
Then I looked at a center section I got for parts a while back, it still had the heater control panel in it, and I found there were patterns in the dust where there had been a THIRD cable - a cable my car lacks.
I have the temp control or air blend cable and that worked, then there was another shorter cable and that worked, but where the TSM said there was a defrost door - there was nothing. Well, the door was there but no cable.
So I am missing a cable to operate the defrost portion.
Bloody heck - I had bought a right side air vent cable from Eddie a year or so ago and can't find it either - my cable that was tucked up under the dash was broken.... I bet I find it some day (I hope) with the NOS tach I can't find!!

Anyway, I have come to the conclusion that no one could find the vacuum or valve info on these cars because it never existed!

So what do I need for a defrost cable?? What did it look like, how long and what sort of ends? A loop on one end and the offset on the other for the lever?? How long was it?

Thanks for confirming what I was finding out this afternoon, mopar_guy...........
The valve is needed for AC cars because the air flows through the same areas for AC as it does heat - so they had to shut the coolant off on those cars, but stopped only the air flow on non-AC cars. Makes sense. (and was cheaper!!)


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Posted By: pit crew
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by Mopar_guy Mopar_guy wrote:

I don't know where you guys are coming up with a non A/C car having a water valve because on the 2 non A/C cars I have, neither have one.
I have stated several times I have never worked on a non A/C car and all I have to compare it to is A/C cars. I was only trying to provide some ideas and a possible direction for Bill. I am glad that someone who knows better finally spoke up. I think I am done here.


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73 Hornet - 401EFI - THM400 - Twin Grip 20


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 6:32pm
nonono - pit crew you aren't done yet!! LOL - more technical questions that apply to EITHER AC or non-AC cars   ;-)

Honestly, your help and info is always appreciated. 
AND, now that the valve bit is likely decided, the rest will apply to either ac or non-ac cars. 

OK with the "heater box" out,, I found the PO had been into this stuff before. There's a bracket on the far right end that I could see if the whole thing was lifted up a half inch on the right end it would bolt to the right side of the car itself. There were only a couple of screws holding the whole thing in.....and there was THICK FOAM and I mean THICK on the right end top between the heater core box area and the piece above it. Geesh,, if he had lifted that end up so that far right bolt could go in he could have cut the foam in half...

But here's my REAL question - and I "THINK" I know, and it's sort of a stupid question, but looking at these pictures - am I correct in that the PO put the heater box against that padding and it should not have been?? Shouldn't that "padding" or insulated matting be AROUND the box and not between the box and the firewall?
Please see the areas I have marked in red - you ca see he had it screwed to the firewall with this stuff between the firewall and heater box,, but that just doesn't seem right especially since that was only in spots,, and not all the way around (my keyboard is going south and missing some letters, doubling up on others)

Also - I couldn't stand the rusty painted water outlet so nickel plated it..........

Anyway, whoever can comment - that stuff shouldn't be between the heater box and firewall, is that correct?





You can see where this slipped down and the PO bolted the heater box up against it - doesn't see right to have that in some spots and not others - that may be why it smelled like engine in the car.



Well, it won't rust bad or quickly now - and it really doesn't take THAT much more than powder coating or painting and letting it dry a few hours before using it..........





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Posted By: Mopar_guy
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 7:31pm
I have an extra control head and cables from my car if you're interested. I put Vintage Air in so I don't need it anymore.

There was some factory insulation on the firewall before the heater box was installed. If I remember right, there's not much holding it in. I removed all of it and replaced with with something better to keep engine heat out and keep it quieter inside.


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" http://theamcforum.com/forum/hemilina_topic95889.html" rel="nofollow - Hemilina " My 1973, 5.7 Hemi swapped Javelin


Posted By: Fluffy73
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 8:17pm
If your car is an original Non-A/C car, then there is no heater valve.  It runs full flow coolant through the heater core at all times. 

And yes, the insulation goes between the firewall and the heater box.


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I am genetically incapable of being Politically Correct.


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 8:50pm
The control head in my car works - but of course the black with lettering is wrinkled with age. I have another in a center section (no cables) but it's worse - the black has pulled away from the lever area and shows brown there.
My biggest thing now is lack of the defrost cable. I have a number of cables from various AMCs so could possibly make one if I knew the length, etc.

On the other hand - spares are always good and if your control is better than mine...........
I lost a bloody clip when I got stupid and wasn't careful and it went flying out the door and across the sho somewhere. I'll probably find it in a year or two.

The bit with the insulation is that some of it was between heater box and firewall, and in some spots not. It appears as if it was meant to be CLEAR of the openings, not sticking into the openings. In other words, it would seem to me that the heater box mounted not on the insulation, but with the insulation around it. I bet the PO had that out, let the insulation sag so it was in the way and just bolted the heater box on top of it instead of pushing it out of the way again..



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Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/18/2018 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by Fluffy73 Fluffy73 wrote:

If your car is an original Non-A/C car, then there is no heater valve.  It runs full flow coolant through the heater core at all times. 

And yes, the insulation goes between the firewall and the heater box.


So it was supposed to be like a "seal" between firewall and heater box?\
You saw mine? there's no way it could be all the way around the opening - I must have some missing.
Great........ now something more to find or figure out!!!

Was it a molded hose between rear of intake and the heater core? That would be a sharp bend for the short hose from manifold fitting to heater core unless the hose had a molded 90 degree bend near the core end.




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Posted By: Mopar_guy
Date Posted: Apr/19/2018 at 8:23pm
The defroster cable that moves when you move the lever to defrost has a slotted end at the heater box end and is about 18.5" long. The other 2 cables on that lever both have round wire ends. The one on the left is about 20.5" and the one on the right is 18.5" long. Hope that helps.

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" http://theamcforum.com/forum/hemilina_topic95889.html" rel="nofollow - Hemilina " My 1973, 5.7 Hemi swapped Javelin


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/19/2018 at 8:58pm
Yup - very helpful.
I got the heater core installed in the box, foam insulation adhered in spots I thought it belonged and the heater box in the car. I actually installed the bolt in the far right end - the bracket that went to the body.
When I pulled tings apart originally there was no bolt or screw there, not sure there ever was one, but it needs it as otherwise the box hung so far down below the cowl area there was a huge gap. Now with some foam there and the box pushed up and a screw put into that bracket to the car, it sits up higher and the foam for the most part closes off that gap between heater box and the air intake area.
It was a mess inside - pine needles, dirt, yuk. 


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Posted By: CHAR
Date Posted: Mar/18/2019 at 4:52pm
Did you ever get your heater assembly sorted out?  Im disassembling my 72 A/C Javelin interiors right now do fix the WeatherEye cables and the jacked up wiring the PO installed for his ghetto stereo, and I have the same gap between the heater box and the cowl.  Almost an inch, and the box is still tight against its mount points.  There is evidence of a foam gasket that has long since disintegrated, and the heater box on my Boss 302 was the same.  it had a thick, 1" tall loop gasket that when around the perimeter of the box where it met the cowl and fresh air came right over and thru the core. 
 
 Ive yet to get into the vacuum system, but there is a line from a intake manifold fitting, thru the firewall close the the speedo  and into the cab to a tree that services the main air flap that lets air up into the upper dash duct work while the A/C is on.  It also looks to feed(suck) the heater valve.  I want to see about getting it all working again or ditch it and switch it all to manual cables, but aside from parts, it looks simple enough.



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