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where can one find solenoid for auto Jav?

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Forum Name: Electrical - non engine
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Topic: where can one find solenoid for auto Jav?
Posted By: billd
Subject: where can one find solenoid for auto Jav?
Date Posted: Apr/08/2018 at 9:20pm
I have checked all of the local places - so far, no luck finding a correct starter "solenoid"/relay for a 73 Javelin automatic.
These will have a ground connection on the back and NOT be grounded to the fender as all others.
The NSS grounds the solenoid in these cars - but every one I find is for manual transmissions.
Short of making insulating shouldered washers and getting really complex in mounting a solenoid and preventing it from being grounded to the fender - where are people getting their starter solenoids for Javelins with MOPAR automatics?


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Replies:
Posted By: 1970390amx
Date Posted: Apr/08/2018 at 10:46pm
I would go looking boxes in the garage and find one, the wiring next to it maybe of help also it has both male and female connectors. They are a four wire connector one is not used. wire not in as good of shape as what you already have. PM me if you are interested in one or both.


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1970 390 4speed Bittersweet shadow mask AMX
1970 Amx missing most everything, or in a box


Posted By: 1970390amx
Date Posted: Apr/08/2018 at 11:15pm
napa lists a ECH-ST83 that looks correct.

Standard Motor products  SS 582   can be found on e bay


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1970 390 4speed Bittersweet shadow mask AMX
1970 Amx missing most everything, or in a box


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/09/2018 at 12:56pm
NAPA doesn't have anything that's actually correct. At least not in Iowa.
O'Reilly's listed several "correct for 73 Javelin" and then when I clicked on each one, it said "not correct" - they are all for sticks.

I ended up buying a "NORS" that was definitely correct - the application list included 72-73 AMC Javelin and enough other AMCs - and the photo they showed was correct (in fact looking at your pic now, it was like that one)

So one is on the way - from eBay, made in USA, etc.


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Posted By: Lyle
Date Posted: Apr/09/2018 at 3:22pm
Build,
Just for others and verification of part number:
NORS - part number?
The Borg Warner S113 and Standard Motor Products SS582 also look to be the same:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000C81T4Q/ref=psdc_15731411_t1_B000IURL4U
Your take.


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/09/2018 at 5:44pm
I checked the applications for the number Roger mentioned - ECH-ST83 - and it IS correct for 73 with automatic - it has the ground terminal on the back and does not ground through the mounting tabs.
BW S113 would be correct as well.
Amazon says the SS582 doesn't fit - but it sure looks correct, it mounts at an angle and has the ground terminal on the back.
I would say it will fit since it crosses to what I bought, what Roger mentioned and the BW S113 which is also correct for the AMCs with MOPAR transmission and the NSS that grounds the solenoid.

The tell seems to be the terminal on the back and the mounting is at an angle instead of straight up and down like those used earlier, for for sticks.

No one around here carries those - had to go online to find one to fit.
(and I even shop at the NAPA distribution center - and they didn't have it)
For a while I wasn't even able to find what DID fit - everything anyone here listed says "doesn't fit" but then I have found they aren't always correct - like AMAZON stating that one wouldn't fit my car. BS -- it's correct for my car.


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Posted By: Mopar_guy
Date Posted: Apr/09/2018 at 6:24pm
I never trust Amazon's catalog. I use RA or the manufacturers catalog. Standard Motor Parts has a great e catalog. 

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Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/09/2018 at 6:40pm
Be careful - I can tell of two specific instances of Rockauto's listing being very wrong - and one of them was because Gabriel's listing was WRONG.
Cross-checking with other sources is a good idea - but then that even fails. I have three cases of that failing - one was because TIMKEN's listing was WRONG for bearings, and another was because the national listing the auto parts stores, and Rockauto, use, was wrong for a MOPAR transmission seal.
The seal was for the shift select shaft - that small little seal that goes around the shift shaft on MOPAR transmissions. Should be simple, right? The listing from all of the parts stores EXCEPT NAPA, was wrong and you ended up with a large output shaft seal. O'Reilly, RockAuto, Advance, Autozone all had the wrong part number for that little seal. Only NAPA had it correct - likely because they produced the part themselves.



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Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Apr/10/2018 at 11:16pm
Hmm. My car is a stick. And all my parts cars are auto. I had to buy a solenoid for my 74 Gremlin...its correct, but it's a standard blue streak one. Interesting about the one for the 73 Javelin.. .


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/11/2018 at 5:34am
Originally posted by purple72Gremlin purple72Gremlin wrote:

Hmm. My car is a stick. And all my parts cars are auto. I had to buy a solenoid for my 74 Gremlin...its correct, but it's a standard blue streak one. Interesting about the one for the 73 Javelin.. .


My 71 and 73 used the same solenoid, both had 304 automatics. He only difference is 7 used a BW tranny.

I use to find a lot of Solenoids made by other manufactures. Thus the black KEM SW92. My 71 has an an aftermarket Grey/Green body with the ground pin. I may still have it, but not sure. I really don't think there is any special solinoid, between AMC cars with automatics through the years from late 60s on up the late 70s.


The only reason why I said I could not find one earlier in my reply, was that Standard was 96% in my search list. Nothing for NOS KEM, BW, NAPA, Delco... etc. Not 100% sure Standard is 100% made in USA. That is why I never stated the name. If it was labeled Blue Streak, then I would have said something, as i know many here look away at non USA made products off the shelves.


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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/11/2018 at 7:14am
The difference is the MOPAR transmission and NSS. Cars with the neutral safety switch in the cabin usually broke the ignition switch start signal unless it was in N or P. The reason the solenoid I needed was marked for 72-73 is because of the transmission NSS grounding a relay or solenoid.
If the switch was on the floor shifter or the column it was the sort that broke the start circuit and a standard mount-grounded solenoid was used. If the NSS was a "grounding" type then a solenoid that did NOT ground via the mount was used.
That's the most basic simplified explanation.
A stick didn't use an NSS like the automatics so had to have a self-grounding solenoid. Any car that used a NSS that broke the crank signal had to have a self-grounding solenoid.
For example, my 70 has the NSS at the shifter - so the solenoid for that car MUST be self-grounding and I could NOT use the solenoid for a 72-73 car on it, unless the solenoid was for a stick - I could buy a solenoid for a 1973 with a stick and use it on my 70


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Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Apr/11/2018 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

The difference is the MOPAR transmission and NSS. Cars with the neutral safety switch in the cabin usually broke the ignition switch start signal unless it was in N or P. The reason the solenoid I needed was marked for 72-73 is because of the transmission NSS grounding a relay or solenoid.
If the switch was on the floor shifter or the column it was the sort that broke the start circuit and a standard mount-grounded solenoid was used. If the NSS was a "grounding" type then a solenoid that did NOT ground via the mount was used.
That's the most basic simplified explanation.
A stick didn't use an NSS like the automatics so had to have a self-grounding solenoid. Any car that used a NSS that broke the crank signal had to have a self-grounding solenoid.
For example, my 70 has the NSS at the shifter - so the solenoid for that car MUST be self-grounding and I could NOT use the solenoid for a 72-73 car on it, unless the solenoid was for a stick - I could buy a solenoid for a 1973 with a stick and use it on my 70
I understand it. All my parts cars are the same as your 73 javelin. All have the mopar TF, and the ground lug on the solenoids. I needed a solenoid for the 74 Gremlin..no dice. Had to buy one.


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/11/2018 at 5:44pm
The NORS solenoid arrived today (wow, that was quick!)
I bolted it on (the other was actually bolted into hole the PO put there, I moved it back to where it belonged)
Well, first I tested as the box said "bracket grounded" HUH?? No, it's not supposed to be.
Well, it wasn't. I put the mounting bracket on the neg battery post and used a wire and touched the S terminal and nothing, so it was obviously supposed to say "not grounded" or something.
Of course the PO had really screwed up the wiring - the lt blue w/trace that was supposed to be the ground was actually connected in with the green wire that went to the S terminal. Good thing he didn't have the NSS connected! He'd have fried something. I had to put a longer wire on with a connector for the back lug.
I wish people who don't know any better wouldn't try to "fix" electrical issues - they almost always make them WORSE.

Anyway, I now have a proper starter setup - the NSS will now prevent cranking with the transmission in anything but N or P.



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Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Apr/11/2018 at 5:49pm
Good deal


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/11/2018 at 5:54pm
Tom - perhaps you just need some more parts cars! LOL

Yeah it bothered me not having neutral safety switch - especially since the car was converted from column shift to floor shift - you can shift it into or out of any gear, key in it or not.... there's no physical interlock preventing it from being put in, for example, reverse, without the key in it.

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Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Apr/11/2018 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

Tom - perhaps you just need some more parts cars! LOL

Yeah it bothered me not having neutral safety switch - especially since the car was converted from column shift to floor shift - you can shift it into or out of any gear, key in it or not.... there's no physical interlock preventing it from being put in, for example, reverse, without the key in it.
I like everything to work properly. But parts cars? Lol...those aren't easy to find sometimes, don't blame you not liking it starting anytime...no thanks...


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/11/2018 at 7:45pm
So far these appear to be part numbers that have the connector on the back for the grounding NSS - 

Not sure why there are multiple Standard numbers that look alike and have the same terminals, but I actually found another Standard number - if I can find it again.........

Standard SS590, SS582
NAPA ECH-ST83,
BW S113, 
AIRTEX IM1025, 
ESSEX 3235897 (AMC part number, made by Essex for AMC)


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Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Apr/11/2018 at 8:20pm
The solenoid I got was blue, and it is shaped differently. Not what an original would look like. But this car is not restored



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