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dot 5 brake fluid

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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: Suspension, Steering, Brakes & Wheels
Forum Description: What makes it stop, turn, and smooths the ride
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=93489
Printed Date: Apr/20/2024 at 8:42am
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Topic: dot 5 brake fluid
Posted By: jeanbonjeanbon1
Subject: dot 5 brake fluid
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 6:31am
I'd like to know why so many of you are using dot 5 silicon brake fluid6 
I always used dot 3  back in those days and never had any problem with it but since evtg is new and i 'm on a fresh start i might as well inquire.
The dot 5 is three times as expensive and as i don't intend to race the  car in any ways I don'think i'll abuse the braking system as it will over heat.
I jus heard though that it's more stable for long time use so... all opinions welcome



Replies:
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 6:44am
Originally posted by jeanbonjeanbon1 jeanbonjeanbon1 wrote:

<span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; : rgb248, 248, 252;">I'd like to know why so many of you are using dot 5 silicon brake fluid6 </span><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; : rgb248, 248, 252;">I always used dot 3  back in those days and never had any problem with it but since evtg is new and i 'm on a fresh start i might as well inquire.<div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; : rgb248, 248, 252;">The dot 5 is three times as expensive and as i don't intend to race the  car in any ways I don'think i'll abuse the braking system as it will over heat.<div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; : rgb248, 248, 252;">I jus heard though that it's more stable for long time use so... all opinions welcome



See your original post on brake lines.

Here is a copy...

Longer life, and better heat rating, may help with longer hose life too. If your not into hard driving, DOT3 is just fine. It's like motor oil, you can spend a great deal of money on synthetics, but if you maintain under manufacturer's recommended guidelines, cheaper dino oil can do just as well, if you are just driving around normally. Like why buy track shoes if you just using them for house slippers?

Mods don't like multi topics on the same subject. Though, the only issue is that you added this to your original topic, and added this after the fact. You may remove your question, and leave this, to keep things simple and clean. I have seen a few peeps do what you have time and time, and get lost with figuring out which topic is still valid, when both topics are flip flopping around.

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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: jeanbonjeanbon1
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 6:54am
sorry i don't get what you mean i'm inquiring a lot of things but my post on brake fluid is the only one i made on brake fluuid and since i'm restoring i do get a lot of questions coming up at the same time thanks. Sorry  if i did stg wrong but i didn't whrite the post on brake lines


Posted By: scott
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 7:16am
DOT 5 brake fluid will not eat the paint if spilled on it like DOT 3 does.

DOT 5 won't absorb water like DOT 3.


Posted By: amcfool1
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 7:52am
hi, if you are starting over with a COMPLETELY new brake system, as in new wheel cylinders, calipers, master cyl, and all brake lines, I would go with the DOT 5, not for performance, but simply because it stores better. If keeping any old pieces, stay with the DOT 3, the two don't mix. good luck, gz

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george z


Posted By: bigbad69
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 8:36am
I use DOT5 in my Javelin, mainly because it won't damage the paint. The brake system was completely replaced, so there was no chance of contamination with DOT3.

As already mentioned, DOT3 and DOT5 do not play nice together. If switching from one to the other, you must completely flush the old fluid out of the system.



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69 Javelin SST BBO 390 T10


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 8:46am
Originally posted by bigbad69 bigbad69 wrote:

I use DOT5 in my Javelin, mainly because it won't damage the paint. The brake system was completely replaced, so there was no chance of contamination with DOT3.

As already mentioned, DOT3 and DOT5 do not play nice together. If switching from one to the other, you must completely flush the old fluid out of the system.



My assumption was he wanted to keep original hoses... given they were not Chinese made and had DOT3 absorption in the lining compound. As long as he does proper maintainance and drives normally he can use the DOT3.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: jeanbonjeanbon1
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 9:07am
if such hoses can be cleanedGeek


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 9:46am
Originally posted by jeanbonjeanbon1 jeanbonjeanbon1 wrote:

if such hoses can be cleanedGeek


Post a picture or two, some surface rust can be removed, but any deep cleaning of the fittings may require replating. If worst case, silver leaf from a hobby shop will give some finish, on the cheap.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: jeanbonjeanbon1
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 11:53am
thanks 304 dude i am talking about interior cleaning cause the hoses were pretty nice outside but i finally think i'll order replacement at Rockauto since to me there is no ways to check the inside of those hoses

-------------
Regards,Jean
BBBQ
Big Bad Blue Quebec
Amx 1969
F150 2013
crv 2016
roadstar 2003


Posted By: amxdreamer
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 11:56am
I ran DOT5 to ensure I never have paint issues from a drop of fluid. 

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Tony
Vancouver, BC
1970 AMX
1972 Badassador
AMO#10333


Posted By: jeanbonjeanbon1
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 12:02pm
btw 304 dude sorry i can't post pics right now but will do when authorised

-------------
Regards,Jean
BBBQ
Big Bad Blue Quebec
Amx 1969
F150 2013
crv 2016
roadstar 2003


Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 12:13pm
If you are changing the wheel cylinders and just keeping the master and the hard and soft lines, they can be cleaned of D0T 3 by draining the DOT 3 and rinsing the system thoroughly with isopropyl alcohol.  DOT 3 brake fluid is a long chain alcohol and is easily soluble in lighter alcohols.  Be sure to rinse and blow the lines and the master cylinder with compressed air until you are sure  they are completely rinsed.  Then you can add your new wheel cylinders and use DOT 5. I make the exception on cleaning (a personal choice) the wheel cylinders because it is difficult to be sure they are completely cleaned.  But if you are removing and rebuilding them, of course you could reuse them.  These recommendations are consistent with other instructions I have read.  Joe

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Happiness is making something out of nothing.


Posted By: jeanbonjeanbon1
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 12:28pm
new master cyl, new booster, rebuilted ss 4 pistons bendix calipers, new rear wheel cyl new steel lines, just tought reusing rubber lines cause the exterior looked ok but not very shure of the interior. 

I tried to clean with dot 3 brake fluid but they don't inspire me to much confidence anymore so probably better with the cheap hoses Rock Auto sells at least they're new. I can play with engine transmismission and many other parts but not with  the brakes thanks for all those infos Thumbs Up


-------------
Regards,Jean
BBBQ
Big Bad Blue Quebec
Amx 1969
F150 2013
crv 2016
roadstar 2003


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 12:51pm
I stuck with 3 because I re-used my master and wasn't ready for a complete flush of the master. 
I DID replace all lines, all hoses, wheel cylinders, calipers, etc. but time was an issue so I left the master alone aside from running new clean fluid through it. 
Never mix 'em........

3 is fine. 5 doesn't have the same affinity for water 3 does and doesn't destroy paint and cause firewall and booster rust like 3 does. 
Rockauto hoses are the same name brand hoses you buy anywhere unless you get their bargain line. RA brake parts are exactly the same and just as good - but like any other parts store, they sell bargain brands or the main-stream lines of parts.
Do not be afraid of RA brake parts - they will be Wagner, Kelsey-Hayes, Bendix, AC, etc. unless you opt for the cheaper stuff. In fact, I've found it harder to get the best brake parts are the local parts stores where with RA I can specify the brand I want. 
You can also order many of these parts from Amazon for at least as good a price as rockauto, almost always cheaper than parts stores. 

Almost all of the brake parts on my 70 Javelin and 82 SX4 are from Rockauto - most of those on my 73 came from forum members, Amazon, etc.
I don't mess around with hoses over a few years old, they are too cheap to replace to make it worth even thinking of re-using them.
My 73 now has 100% all new brake parts, lines, etc. except the master which is a bit over a year old and the combination valve which I went through - but may still replace just because.
(oops, I guess the booster and pedal is original......... ok, so it's not 100% new if you count the pedal and booster and rod)

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Posted By: pit crew
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 2:49pm
The topic of DOT3 vs DOT5 has been beat to death. If you Google this you will find that everyone has an opinion on the topic. All I can offer is my personal opinion and experience.

DOT3 is a good proven performer with the disadvantage of eating paint and adsorbing water. The manufactures once recommended a complete flush and refill every two years to get the adsorbed water out of the system before the system rusted from the in side out. Keep in mind that back in the day the expected life time if these cars was something like four years anyway

DOT5 is also a proven performer with the disadvantage of cost. It will not absorb water and will not attack paint. For a classic car that sits in storage part of the year and may not see a brake fluid flush for 20 years or more these are good things.

Some people claim a difference in pedal feel. There are tons of scientific papers out there covering the boiling points and other aspects of each fluid. Google until the cows come home and you'll find that people still come down on both side of the debate.

Comes down to how you use and drive you car. For the type of driving that "most" classic cars drivers do DOT5 is a good choice.


-------------

73 Hornet - 401EFI - THM400 - Twin Grip 20


Posted By: jeanbonjeanbon1
Date Posted: Apr/07/2018 at 2:58pm
i really like the way you think on this toppic and since i won't use the car more than 2,000 to 5,000km a year and  don't intend to flush the system every couple years or so, i seriously consider using dot 5 as for paint protectioon tooThumbs Up

-------------
Regards,Jean
BBBQ
Big Bad Blue Quebec
Amx 1969
F150 2013
crv 2016
roadstar 2003


Posted By: dltowers
Date Posted: Apr/08/2018 at 6:08pm
"This is my Preferred ChoiceApprove"....



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Original Owner, 1974 Javelin:
360ci,2v,727TC. Motorola Multiplex with 8-Track.
G4 Plum exterior with 421Q Black Uganda Interior. Purchased on July 16, 1974 from Hooker AMC, Sherman, TX for $4500.20


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/08/2018 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by pit crew pit crew wrote:

The topic of DOT3 vs DOT5 has been beat to death. If you Google this you will find that everyone has an opinion on the topic. All I can offer is my personal opinion and experience.

DOT3 is a good proven performer with the disadvantage of eating paint and adsorbing water. The manufactures once recommended a complete flush and refill every two years to get the adsorbed water out of the system before the system rusted from the in side out. Keep in mind that back in the day the expected life time if these cars was something like four years anyway

DOT5 is also a proven performer with the disadvantage of cost. It will not absorb water and will not attack paint. For a classic car that sits in storage part of the year and may not see a brake fluid flush for 20 years or more these are good things.

Some people claim a difference in pedal feel. There are tons of scientific papers out there covering the boiling points and other aspects of each fluid. Google until the cows come home and you'll find that people still come down on both side of the debate.

Comes down to how you use and drive you car. For the type of driving that "most" classic cars drivers do DOT5 is a good choice.

You hit one of the best reasons - cars that sit. To this day the brake makers still recommend every-other-year brake system flush. Water helps create acids and sludge - and those form solids and eat at the cylinders. 
No system can be sealed perfectly and never need a cleaning, but the lack of affinity for water, etc. is likely the best reason to use the 5. Cars that sit require different treatment vs. those driven daily and serviced on a regular basis.


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Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Apr/08/2018 at 11:42pm
Originally posted by dltowers dltowers wrote:

"This is my Preferred ChoiceApprove"....


lol, no offense -- but i wouldn't use that stuff if you paid me. it's too old. quality isn't an issue. chemicals go bad just sitting, and DOT3 sucks water from the atmosphere. no container is perfectlty sealed...


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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Apr/11/2018 at 7:23am
Already states... Dot5 good for cars that sit a lot since it doesn't absorb water. It will give you a little spongier/softer pedal as it will compress slightly since it can hold air. Doesn't attack paint, so good for show cars or others that don't want that issue.

What hasn't been pointed out -- DOES NOT work well in high heat situations!CART cars (open wheel -- Indy/F1 types) tried using it long ago and started wearing brakes prematurely and even had some lock-ups and brake fires, IIRC. Dot 5 expands with heat! For most, even rally driving, this isn't an issue as it doesn't expand that much. For CART type cars it is because they are hard on the brakes a lot more and for a longer period of time than a typical rally or auto-cross car. I had to stop using it in my motorcycle because the front calipers would lock up on a hot day. Shaded rear caliper wouldn't, out in the open (and black!)  front calipers would lock up on a hot summer day in the parking lot -- had to pop bleeder to ride home after work! After 2-3 times it came back out. Now those calipers used very little fluid to activate, so that was part of the issue. Car calipers use a lot more fluid, plus the calipers are shaded like my rear caliper was. Never heard of a street or auto-cross car running Dot 5 and having an issue, just the open wheelers and motorcycles.

I ran Dot 5 in my Rambler for about three years. After accidentally adding Dot 3 the second time I said "screw it" and drained/flushed the system and went back to Dot 3. Just didn't remember when topping off! First time I put a good bit in. A day or two later left front wheel started dragging and I realized what I'd done. Flush with alcohol, refill. About a year later almost did the same thing. Got just a dash of Dot 3 in when I realized what I was doing! Got a large syringe and sucked the MC out, topped off. Whew, dodged a bullet!! Well, not quite. About a week later one of the fronts started dragging some. @#$#^$# drain and flush. Well, this time going back to Dot 3!!!  Unless you only use Dot 5 or clearly mark the MC cover (I thought about painting the cover yellow or something that would remind me it's different!) it's easy to put the wrong fluid in, and Dot 5 doesn't mix with anything else. The point is I didn't rebuild the system when switching over the first time  to Dot 5 -- just flushed with alcohol -- or going back to Dot 3 -- just flushed all three times. But just a TINY BIT of Dot3/Dot5 mix will ruin your day! I never pressed the brakes that second time -- just maybe an ounce of fluid in the reservoir, then sucked it out within 2-3 minutes. Couldn't have been more than a couple drops that got through and cause enough gel to clog a line.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: 990V8
Date Posted: Apr/12/2018 at 9:25am
I use Dot 3 in all my cars. That way there won't be any confusion.
And I do change the fluid every two years. Bleed it out at each corner. Not hard.

Ivor

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63 Canadian Ambo 990 V8 327
74 LandRover Lightweight V8 SIII
Shopping Trolley


Posted By: akimmet
Date Posted: Apr/12/2018 at 11:22am
To add to the confusion, there is DOT 5.1! DOT 5.1 is not compatible with DOT 5.
DOT 5.1 is a traditional glycol brake fluid compatible with DOT 3 and 4.


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/12/2018 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by 990V8 990V8 wrote:

I use Dot 3 in all my cars. That way there won't be any confusion.
And I do change the fluid every two years. Bleed it out at each corner. Not hard.

Ivor

Yup - you can use any of the inexpensive modern tools, some costing less than 20 bucks, or do as I've done on many of my cars - gravity bleed. Open a bleeder, put a hose on it and the other end in a container and let it run until it runs clear. Do that all the way around. You can be off doing other things while it bleeds. 
It's harder on some cars with all the valving, but I was still able to do my 73 for the most part via gravity bleeding. 


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Posted By: AMXTSY
Date Posted: Apr/12/2018 at 9:17pm
 I believe that you said the car in question is a '69 AMX.

Here is an often overlooked procedural tip- for what it's worth and regardless of what type of fluid you decide to use.
 
It is important to always disconnect the switch wire and remove the center nylon cap on the brake line pressure differential warning light switch BEFORE bleeding the brakes.
This switch is located down low on the passenger side front firewall. Also, take care not to loose the tiny spring or plastic plunger.

 Without this doing this simple step first, the warning light in the dash could be activated and it can be a real PITA to reset. This is all fully explained in the TSM.
 
Good luck with your project.  Bruce





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Bruce Carothers
Champaign County, Il.
AMO # 9928


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Apr/12/2018 at 9:32pm
Removing the switch core is only needed if you use the pump and bleed method. If you use a pressure bleeder or gravity bleeding, no such procedure is necessary.
The reason? It takes, as I recall, about 80 psi DIFFERENCE between the two sides to trip that switch.
With a combo valve like I have, it's SIMPLE to reset it. When you buy them they try to sell you their special tool to hold the shuttle from moving - the catch is that the shuttle can be reset, thus the switch turned off, by opening the other side and applying pedal pressure JUST until the light goes out.
Been there, done that - bled hundreds of systems (including all of my own in the last couple of years) and nary a problem.
I have the tool that you had to use on Ford systems - it's a metal piece you screw in in place of the switch core but haven't used it much. 
Pressure bleeding with a pressure tank, etc. doesn't use enough pressure to trip the switch, and gravity bleeding uses no pressure, and the vacuum pump tools also don't create enough pressure differential to trip the light.

On my 73, I tripped the light but it went out as soon as I opened the front bleeders and applied some pressure. As quick as the light went out again, I let up and closed the system.

I recommend against the pump it up and have a friend open the bleeder method on cars with older cylinders as that forces the cups of the master into territory that's not been used in how long - that's where sludge, dirt, whatever, forms and you can make a working master worthless.
If your master cylinder is old, don't allow the pedal to go down below normal position as it may just end up cutting the cups on dirt and sludge.
Those master cylinders can be nasty if they've been forced into areas they've not been into in a while.





-------------


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http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com


Posted By: jeanbonjeanbon1
Date Posted: Apr/13/2018 at 3:32am
nice comments guys,
 i'll throw in an all new mc, all new rear cyls, new power booster, rebuilted ss sleeved callipers, and new  lines. I'll check the switch and see if it can be cleaned and reused, or call new one. I'm an old timer and will use a friend to push and hold the pedal but first got to get the engine back to life hope next week. 
the contamination was worst then i tought so might be using dot 5 for that summer driven car  

thanks again for good advices , read you all and wish to put my car back on the road this summer. I'll post pics when i'll be allowed 


-------------
Regards,Jean
BBBQ
Big Bad Blue Quebec
Amx 1969
F150 2013
crv 2016
roadstar 2003


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Apr/13/2018 at 7:02am
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:


Removing the switch core is only needed if you use the pump and bleed method. If you use a pressure bleeder or gravity bleeding, no such procedure is necessary.
The reason? It takes, as I recall, about 80 psi DIFFERENCE between the two sides to trip that switch.
With a combo valve like I have, it's SIMPLE to reset it. When you buy them they try to sell you their special tool to hold the shuttle from moving - the catch is that the shuttle can be reset, thus the switch turned off, by opening the other side and applying pedal pressure JUST until the light goes out.
Been there, done that - bled hundreds of systems (including all of my own in the last couple of years) and nary a problem.
I have the tool that you had to use on Ford systems - it's a metal piece you screw in in place of the switch core but haven't used it much. 
Pressure bleeding with a pressure tank, etc. doesn't use enough pressure to trip the switch, and gravity bleeding uses no pressure, and the vacuum pump tools also don't create enough pressure differential to trip the light.

On my 73, I tripped the light but it went out as soon as I opened the front bleeders and applied some pressure. As quick as the light went out again, I let up and closed the system.

I recommend against the pump it up and have a friend open the bleeder method on cars with older cylinders as that forces the cups of the master into territory that's not been used in how long - that's where sludge, dirt, whatever, forms and you can make a working master worthless.
If your master cylinder is old, don't allow the pedal to go down below normal position as it may just end up cutting the cups on dirt and sludge.
Those master cylinders can be nasty if they've been forced into areas they've not been into in a while.




which is why I dont like certain people to help me bleed brakes. I'm even careful on new master cylinders. I've never had problems myself.



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