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New big rotor scarebird kit

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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: Suspension, Steering, Brakes & Wheels
Forum Description: What makes it stop, turn, and smooths the ride
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Topic: New big rotor scarebird kit
Posted By: Ramblage
Subject: New big rotor scarebird kit
Date Posted: Mar/06/2018 at 4:29pm
I was wondering if anybody tried out the new big rotor scarebird brake kit that uses the 1/2 ton gm calipers and 12” Powertrac rotors and how are they as far as braking power compared to the basic scarebird kit.

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1960 Customized Land Barge Rambler Super with Dodge 360 & 5spd
1971 Silver Bullet Javelin w/232 Engyne!
1972 Crappy Green Javelin w/401 and AW4, still in the works



Replies:
Posted By: Gelalthedamned
Date Posted: Mar/06/2018 at 11:06pm
I keep 14s up front...cause I’m into rake.
But, if I had 15s I’d be all over that...cause I love my current scarebirds.

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Calamity - 73 Gremlin X zombie rod (daily driver)


Posted By: akimmet
Date Posted: Mar/07/2018 at 10:16am
The new ScareBird kit dose look to be a significant upgrade over those tiny Celebrity calipers.

It is just a shame that they didn't pick calipers that take full advantage of the braking surface on the rotors. Finding a way to use the Ford dual piston calipers would be vastly superior. Or even better yet Toyota 4 piston small truck & SUV calipers.


Posted By: Ramblage
Date Posted: Mar/07/2018 at 11:04am
I currently run the scarbird basic kit on both my 59 and 60 rambler big cars and they have the stock 15” rims but seems like it can still use little more braking power especially my 60 rambler which I’ve done a mopar swap and has a beefed up dodge 360 in it that I drive it like a bat out of heck but coming to a stop going fast it’s little sketchy and starts getting brake fade. Would be nice if they’d come up with something like that akimmet.

-------------
1960 Customized Land Barge Rambler Super with Dodge 360 & 5spd
1971 Silver Bullet Javelin w/232 Engyne!
1972 Crappy Green Javelin w/401 and AW4, still in the works


Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Mar/07/2018 at 11:35am
"Braking power" is a bit tough to discern as it means different things to different people, e.g. pedal effort to stop, pedal effort for lockup, fade resistance, stopping distance, modulation and feel, etc.

If brake fade is your issue, try a pad with a higher temperature range, if it's available. They typically also have a higher coefficient of friction to increase braking torque ... or get more airflow to the rotor to increase cooling. A larger, heavier rotor will also help but negatively affects suspension dynamics.

Braking torque = caliper clamping force * pad coefficient of friction * pad effective clamping radius.

A pad change is typically best bang-for-the-buck if available.

If you want more braking power with a rotor that fits inside a 15" wheel, a good option would be a GM D52 caliper ... but need to make your own brackets .. could start with a common stock car bracket. Tons of pad options. Available for 1.04" or 1.28" thick rotors. Low cost and readily available. Big caliper pistons for lots of clamping force without needing excessive line pressure. Aftermarket aluminum options in single and dual-piston for reduced weight, etc.

Hope this helps,RD


Posted By: AMEX
Date Posted: Mar/07/2018 at 11:51am
I've got this kit on my 68 AMX (manual brakes),  converted from drum, so anything is going to be better. They work great and with the Powerstop drilled and slotted rotors, they look great. I agree that the caliper should match the size of the rotor. Maybe Scarebird will upgrade this kit.
I had no problems installing this kit.


Posted By: Ramblage
Date Posted: Mar/08/2018 at 10:31pm
Thanks for the info guys! RD I’ll try a higher temp pad out to see if that helps but if doesn’t I’ll probably upgrade to that big rotor setup and maybe try a different caliper that takes full advantage of the rotor!

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1960 Customized Land Barge Rambler Super with Dodge 360 & 5spd
1971 Silver Bullet Javelin w/232 Engyne!
1972 Crappy Green Javelin w/401 and AW4, still in the works


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Mar/08/2018 at 10:50pm
CoF is stamped on the edge of all pads and shoes............. oh boy - want to confuse the guys at the parts counter? Toss that at 'em.

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Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Mar/09/2018 at 7:18am
DOT edge code markings give the CoF at 250 F and 600 F. The codes are a range of CoF, so tough to judge just by code unless going from e.g. FE to FF or similar. GG is about the highest for regular passenger car pads. Some aftermarket manufacturers publish full CoF curves, e.g. Hawk, Porterfield, Wilwood, etc  
EE = 0.25 - 0.35
FF = 0.35 - 0.45
GG = 0.45 - 0.55

Do an Internet search for "DOT Edge Codes" for more details.

Hope this helps,RD
Edit: Fixed font size from cell phone


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Mar/09/2018 at 8:05am
RD - did you go to the same college I did? So far you are about the only one who knows details of brakes. 
We learned how this was measured, what the specs meant, pretty much like you described it. 
I'm impressed and it's nice to know there's someone like you who appreciates such detail.

By the way - the brake parts I bought arrived and someone asked about the pads - one had the edge while the outboard pad for the other side did not?
Anyway, they arrived and there's a reason - they are two different pad sets - the pads on one side are a different brand and material than the pads on the other side.
I know it won't matter about the outboard pad for one side having that lip or edge - but the mis-match bugs me as far as having two different pad pairs - braking unevenly if the frictions and types are different. (even the look and color is different between the pads in the left caliper compared to the pads in the right caliper but BOY are those brakes HEAVY!!!!!!)
I can't find anyone who lists pads for those brakes - NAPA doesn't even list disk pads for 73 Javelin and O'Reilly only shows one type of pad and they don't totally look like the heavy duty brake pads.
I had a thought as far as still using those new pads with these brakes......... see if you can guess what I mean.


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Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Mar/09/2018 at 11:09am
Hi Bill,

I've done lots of research on brakes as was considering "upgrading" to one of Wilwood's kits and found they weren't much gain over stock except had better pad compound than typical parts-store variety, had race pads available, saved weight and look nice. There's lots of misinformation out there and guys sometimes spend a bunch of money for not much gain, or end up with a combination that is worse than stock.

Not sure about the "HD" KH pads with the flange? If the caliper itself is the same casting and same mounting pins and width, standard pads should work and are available also in performance street and racing versions from a few manufacturers (same pad as some 70s Chryslers using KH). Looks like one caliper has standard pads and other HD pads?

I wouldn't run mixed pads ... tough to get balanced braking if compounds are different. Might get lucky, but ???

Also, if the calipers are NOS, they've likely been sitting a while and may be best to fit new piston seals. Standard KH had a 2.75" piston and seals should be readily available as common with some others.

Hope this helps,RD.


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Mar/09/2018 at 5:49pm
I picked up a matched set of pads today - ordered their best - and the guy said "yeah, same as Chrysler back then, I recognize those". 



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Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Mar/09/2018 at 6:37pm
Good that you found a full set. I suppose you could try splitting the ones that came with the calipers - use one set for outer pads and other for inner. May cause some instability in the caliper and odd wear ... full matched set is best. 


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Mar/09/2018 at 10:04pm
I had considered using one of each on each side - but then wondered if it might cause a loading condition with the caliper and since pads -- even decent ones - aren't that expensive it seemed silly to spend that much on calipers and rotors and not spend a few more bucks on a matched set of pads.

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Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Mar/09/2018 at 10:39pm
wow, i had no idea brake pad edge codes even existed. thanks RD and billd for the posts.

i'm having the opposite problem -- i've got a very light (2300 lb) American with discs on all corners (Scarebird, Previa rotors 11" up front; 98 Mustang 11" in back), manual non-power, and a 1" bore master cylinder. it all works fine, but pedal pressure is very high. pads are all decent quality OEM replacement type and are semi-metallics.

now that i've got most other things sorted out i want to find much grippier/softer pads, had no idea how to start. i'm unconcerned with pad life.

is there a methodical way to find pads by material or CoF?



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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Mar/10/2018 at 11:44am
Hi Tomj, 
Expect you need to increase pedal ratio or fit a smaller bore master to reduce pedal effort and increase travel. Softer pads would tend to be lower CoF and require more brake effort, and have lower temperature capabilities but may increase travel.

Parts store pads, not surprisingly, are meant to match or exceed OEM specs, so typically have similar CoF. Temperature range and amount of brake dust are typically biggest differences. 

Performance street pads tend to have a bit higher CoF and higher temperature range that those who drive a bit harder may appreciate.   They may lose a bit of CoF at low temperatures and require more effort for those first few stops.

There are lots of pad options for racing, some with high CoF and extreme temperature capabilities, but they are typically not suited for street use.  

For your light car and spirited warm-weather driving, EBC Yellowstuff may give a noticeable improvement if available for your calipers, but they have a long break-in period compared to most. Porterfield R4S would be good, but not as high CoF as the EBC. Their R41 would be a good autocross/limited track pad, but expensive and likely dusty, noisy and wear the rotors in street use.  

Addressing your master cylinder size and/or pedal ratio is first step as may then work well with regular parts store good pads.   

Hope this helps, RD


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Mar/12/2018 at 12:09am
thanks Red Devil... yes, to all of of the above. for proportion, it's all not too bad as it is, it would just be nice to improve pedal feel.

it's very hard to find a smaller bore in an OEM type master cylinder; there's simply few 7/8" or 15/16" bores out there. the whole system (pedals, pedal box, pushrod, plumbing, etc) are home built so changing pushrod ain't nuttin.

it's in the floor so the resevoir is a PITA. the metal bolt on cover works great, but the Wilwood type remote is actually difficult.

so i'm not sure how to find a standard-flange smaller bore master that is actually obtainable. and i want to retain the dual circuit plumbing. left vs. right outlets, and thread size i can deal with.

alas, the EBC Yellow is only available for a narrow range of cars, not the middling chevy stuff used by Scarebird (i was wrong, rotors are about 10.5"). i've been meaning to call C H Topping, old-timey brake specialists in Long Beach. they are a massive lode of lore (their website is where i found all the drum-brake drilling tech, i gotta tell you it works shockingly well). im guessing, but they'll at least have scroungy old catalogs to cross reference and search out choices amongst the OEM junk if nothing else.

edit: may have found a site with a broader range, if not as choice as the EBC...

https://www.topbrakes.com/c/car-items/2568" rel="nofollow - https://www.topbrakes.com/c/car-items/2568

that like should be specifically for the early AMC Scarebird kit (1990 Chevy Celebrity) (what a pathetic car-model name! almost as bad as the Aspire) but topbrakes.com seems to be good.


if you have ideas on how to find a better selection of masters i'd love to hear it. as it is i've done literally hours of google searches, after going through old paper and online PDF catalogs, unit by unit.



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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Mar/12/2018 at 10:13am
If you've made all the parts, assume the simplest option is to change your pedal ratio (move the master pushrod pin closer to the pedal pivot). Basically gets a 1:1 change.
e.g. if you want 20% reduced effort and 20% increased pedal travel and current ratio = 5.5:1, need to increase ratio to 6.6:1.

For master cylinder change, a 15/16" bore would get roughly 14% less effort/more travel and a 7/8" bore gets 30% vs. current 1" bore.

Some suggestions here for 7/8" bore master cylinder options:
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/66295-cheaper-solution-to-Wilwood-7-8-bore-master-cylinder" rel="nofollow - http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/66295-cheaper-solution-to-Wilwood-7-8-bore-master-cylinder

Cardone has their full catalogue on-line if you want to search yourself (didn't make it a direct link as it's a 22MB download)

https://s3.amazonaws.com/pageturnpro2.com/Publications/201407/3154/56617/PDF/130487993789071126_CARDONE%20Automotive%20Master%20Cylinder%20ID%20Guide_MCID14.pdf

Also, quick search of Summit shows lots of options for brake pads for a 1990 Celebrity, including EBC green, red, yellow ... but I don't know if this is your caliper?

https://www.summitracing.com/int/search/part-type/brake-pads/year/1990/make/chevrolet/model/celebrity?PageSize=100&SortBy=DisplayPrice&SortOrder=Desc&retaillocation=int" rel="nofollow - https://www.summitracing.com/int/search/part-type/brake-pads/year/1990/make/chevrolet/model/celebrity?PageSize=100&SortBy=DisplayPrice&SortOrder=Desc&retaillocation=int

EBC pads tend to not be low-cost and mixed reviews on heavier cars, so changing pedal ratio would be my recommendation ... if it can be done and keep good geometry. Next option would be master cylinder change. Then pads.

If budget is healthy, Wilwood has new tandem masters with pushrod for manual brakes, porting both sides with various adapters and remote reservoir capability:
http://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders/MasterCylinderList.aspx?group=Remote%20Tandem%20Master%20Cylinder" rel="nofollow - http://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders/MasterCylinderList.aspx?group=Remote Tandem Master Cylinder

Hope this helps,RD


Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: Mar/12/2018 at 12:48pm
Ramblage - Did you have to bend the steering arms to fit the Scarebird disc brake adapters on your '59 Rambler?  I've been emailing them and Mark there at Scarebird says it's required for my vintage Rambler.
Thanks!
Tom


Posted By: Ramblage
Date Posted: Mar/12/2018 at 11:09pm
Hi Tom, no I didn’t have to do that on my 59 rambler. Wonder if it’s for the American models or v8 big cars but not sure on that. Dang I’m amazed on how much you guys know about brakes, RD and Billd! Awesome information!!
I haven’t tried out a different pad yet because I’m working out of town but when I get a chance hopefully this upcoming weekend I’ll try it out.

-------------
1960 Customized Land Barge Rambler Super with Dodge 360 & 5spd
1971 Silver Bullet Javelin w/232 Engyne!
1972 Crappy Green Javelin w/401 and AW4, still in the works


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Mar/12/2018 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by Red Devil Red Devil wrote:


Hope this helps,RD


yes, thanks! i hadn't thought to look on Summit. yeah the EBC stuff is pricey.

i picked the tallest pedal/highest ratio i could fit, that's not adjustable. it is on the low side. the master is probably the way to go.

yes, thanks! alas, most of the MCs in that pro-touring site are no longer available on RockAuto, which i take to mean they're all too old to use if i were to find one elsewhere. i got one of those MANUFACTURER CLOSEOUT MCs, it was so old that it wouldn't bleed, the rubbers all went bad (that story, again and again). since it's in the floor it needs to have a metal resevoir and cover.

the one i'm using now, some 70 ford pickup, i got new, but is now no longer available. i bleed brakes annually and i tend to haver them last a long time, but it means on-road failure could be very unpleasant. i like to plan ahead.

there was one in there that's current-new that i hadn't seen before. i may go look for one before need.




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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/13/2018 at 5:12am
You could go remote reservoir with a newer MC. Hoses could get damaged, but you can use a braided steel hose to a reservoir on the firewall. A gravel shield of some sort might be the way to go and use a plastic on the MC reservoir...


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/13/2018 at 5:18am
IowaTom -- you DO NOT want to bend the steering arms!! That changes steering geometry, specifically the Ackerman Angle. The big brake kit should fit big Ramblers, but not the 58-63 American (or 50-55 Nash Rambler).  You could get by with bending the arms slightly, maybe 1/4" out, as the Ackerman Angle isn't perfect, but much more (in either direction) and you mess up the turning radius a lot. I made arms for my 63 Classic and don't have the angle just right, but tires only scrub a bit when turned full lock, most noticeable when backing up (geometry changes a bit when backing...).  You really don't need the bigger brakes for the light weight American, even with a V-8 parked in front. A typical small block (anyone's) only weighs about 50# more than the old 195.6 hunk of iron... about the same if you go aluminum heads, and a newer aluminum block V-8 is probably a bit less...


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: Mar/13/2018 at 5:52am
Thanks, Frank!
Know what you mean about bending steering arms and I have no intention of doing so.
Tomorrow (Weds) I plan to tow-dolly the ol' girl home and examine the front steering setup vs. what's in the Scarebird photos for discs.



Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: Mar/13/2018 at 5:59am
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Here's my new baby!


Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Mar/13/2018 at 10:12am
Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

yes, thanks! i hadn't thought to look on Summit. yeah the EBC stuff is pricey.

i picked the tallest pedal/highest ratio i could fit, that's not
adjustable. it is on the low side. the master is probably the way to go.

yes, thanks! alas, most of the MCs in that pro-touring site are no longer available on RockAuto, which i take to mean they're all too old to use if i were to find one elsewhere. i got one of those MANUFACTURER CLOSEOUT MCs, it was so old that it wouldn't bleed, the rubbers all went bad (that story, again and again). since it's in the floor it needs to have a metal resevoir and cover.

the one i'm using now, some 70 ford pickup, i got new, but is now no longer available. i bleed brakes annually and i tend to haver them last a long time, but it means on-road failure could be very unpleasant. i like to plan ahead.

there was one in there that's current-new that i hadn't seen before. i may go look for one before need.

Late '70s/early '80s Mustang/Cougar/Fairmont w/ 4/6cyl. and manual brakes used a 7/8" bore.
e.g. Cardone 13-1764 ... $20 at CarID ... but available lots of places. Dorman and others have equivalents if you don't like Cardone.
https://www.carid.com/cardone/brake-master-cylinder-mpn-13-1764.html" rel="nofollow - 7/8" bore master cylinder
https://www.summitracing.com/int/search/part-type/brake-master-cylinders?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=master%20cylinder%201980%20mustang&N=4294472656%2B4294948658%2B401725%2B401733%2B401115%2B400721" rel="nofollow - listing for '80s Mustang - master w/right-side ports should be 7/8" bore
Cardone spec on 13-1764:
- disc/drum ... remove residual valve if equipped and running disc/disc ... but likely need a 2 psi residual valve in both lines if master is below calipers
- 7/8" bore
- 1/2"-20 and 7/16"-24 ports

Note the smaller bore will be much more sensitive to any air, so make sure to bench bleed fully and ensure full stroke is enough volume for your calipers. May also need to adjust pedal position (pushrod length) to suit increased stroke

Hope this helps,RD


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Mar/14/2018 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Red Devil Red Devil wrote:


Late '70s/early '80s Mustang/Cougar/Fairmont w/ 4/6cyl. and manual brakes used a 7/8" bore.
e.g. Cardone 13-1764 ... $20 at CarID ... but available lots of places. Dorman and others have equivalents if you don't like Cardone.
https://www.carid.com/cardone/brake-master-cylinder-mpn-13-1764.html" rel="nofollow - 7/8" bore master cylinder
https://www.summitracing.com/int/search/part-type/brake-master-cylinders?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=master%20cylinder%201980%20mustang&N=4294472656%2B4294948658%2B401725%2B401733%2B401115%2B400721" rel="nofollow - listing for '80s Mustang - master w/right-side ports should be 7/8" bore
Cardone spec on 13-1764:
- disc/drum ... remove residual valve if equipped and running disc/disc ... but likely need a 2 psi residual valve in both lines if master is below calipers
- 7/8" bore
- 1/2"-20 and 7/16"-24 ports


YES. THAT HELPS. A LOT. !

man i thought my search fu was decent, but i am in awe. last night i spent a good 45 min on summit, and again on rockauto.  did you start with the '80 mustang' search? 

funny that for once, the best candidate is the cheapest. i'm OK with cardone. it's new manufacture too. i hope 'new' wasn't 1985, but for $20 it's a worthy gamble.

the ports are on the right side too.


(playing around with summit's search... i knew that the parametric fields don't appear until the number of items is either small enough or categorically narrow enough. but i never considered selecting 'engine size' to narrow the search. that makes 'bore diameter' appear/disappear. aargh. without, > 6000 matches, no parameters. with > 2000 with parameters. go figure.)

THANKS!



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Mar/14/2018 at 10:30am
Hi Tomj,

I actually started with the Cardone master cylinder catalogue, which is about 180 pages. It lists a few thousand part numbers with many pages of illustrations. Near the end of the catalogue they group masters by bore size. There are several pages of masters with 7/8" bore, but only a few have integral reservoir and SAE ports. Comparing with photos gave a good guess at something that would work.

Once I had a part number, a simple search found the application details for model, year, etc.(CARiD is a good site for this). Then can easily search your favourite retailer by make, model, year & application to get matching parts.

Expect porting, bolt spacing and pilot may not match exactly, but since yours is a custom install with another Ford master, may get lucky.

Hope this helps,RD


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/15/2018 at 5:40am
Most AMCs use a 1" bore MC. The 7/8" bore will move a little less fluid (pedal travel will increase slightly) at a higher pressure than a 1" bore. Should be fine though. 

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Frank Swygert


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/15/2018 at 5:43am
I'm not so sure the big brake kit won't fit your Rambler -- that's the big car. You'd have to try it. The standard kit fits with no issues though, and should be more than enough even for a V-8 big car. Will be better than the drums that came with the V-8 cars, definitely better than the smaller drums on the six!


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: Scarebird
Date Posted: Mar/16/2018 at 9:31pm
We have noted the concern on the two kits regarding pedal pressure.  Both kits use calipers that have 2-1/2"Ø pistons, these usually work fine for manual brakes.  Both calipers are noted for being relatively powerful for their size and weight.  The caliper architecture runs from 2" to 3-1/4" piston size.  As we are about halfway thru the current batch of brackets for the heavy duty we will look to see if we can run a bigger piston caliper - but the issue here is plate offset - it will hit with the shallowest AMC spindle base..

In the mean time, my personal car (Trans Am with manual 4 wheel disc) runs a Mopar minivan master which has a bore of 15/16"; a normal size person can drive it, though a 90 pound teenage girl not so much...

...and I did not know about the coefficient ratings on the side of the pad - more research is in order here, thanks


Posted By: IowaTom
Date Posted: Mar/27/2018 at 2:00pm
Ramblage - Were you able to fit the Scarebird discs on your '59 without having to modify the steering arms?  I see they have only 4 options on their website for AMC and nothing seems to be for the '59 vintage.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/29/2018 at 5:47am
The regular size Scarebird kit will fit ALL AMC Rambler vehicles. You might have to swap them side to side to mount the caliper in the rear instead of the front (or vice versa), but that's it. I can't say about the large diameter, never tried one of those. You might need a 1/4" wheel spacer, but other than that you should have no issues... and the regular size is plenty braking -- same size as Hornet/Concord factory brakes. I'd space the spindle out with longer grade 8 bolts and washers (or 1/2" nuts make good spacers). Use grade 5 or 8 washers and nuts for spacers as they are hardened and won't give any. I'm using a nut and a couple washers to space mine out, but for the deep wheels I need for the Jag IRS. Spaced front out so can use the same depth all around.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: Lyle
Date Posted: Mar/29/2018 at 11:49am
Cannot disagree more on using nuts as spacers for any machine component let alone a vehicle on the road.
Fasteners are used to clamp machine components together and the strength is in the clamping force between the machine faces.
A wheel spacer is made of good quality T6 aluminum or steel and never use that off shore pot metal that's pedaled on-line.
Using a nut as a spacer puts all the shear load on the fastener. Build did it right when he needed to adjust a spindle by machining the machine faces. If you need to extend the wheel out use a high quality wheel spacer or adapter.
If you need to push the spindle out, get new spindle for the job or have a machined steel plate as a spacer. 



Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Mar/29/2018 at 12:31pm
Like my neighbor did - a well-respected machine shop made him plates.

I would have only gone with grade 8 washers as spacers - and at the most one thickness-  I'm glad I didn't.
I don't agree that those kits "fit all". They fit models only where you have the correct spindle mounting thickness or can have one machined, or make a plate. 
Washers - maybe, one thickness, but not nuts as those are then individual parts and don't have a large FACE to press against. At least a washer has some surface area - more than a nut has. 

I have to agree with Lyle - you smack those brakes and are on sand a bit or wet pavement and the wheel slides a bit and then suddenly GRABS hard, you have three thousand pounds hitting those spindles. 


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Posted By: Scarebird
Date Posted: Mar/29/2018 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

Like my neighbor did - a well-respected machine shop made him plates.

I would have only gone with grade 8 washers as spacers - and at the most one thickness-  I'm glad I didn't.
I don't agree that those kits "fit all". They fit models only where you have the correct spindle mounting thickness or can have one machined, or make a plate. 
Washers - maybe, one thickness, but not nuts as those are then individual parts and don't have a large FACE to press against. At least a washer has some surface area - more than a nut has. 

I have to agree with Lyle - you smack those brakes and are on sand a bit or wet pavement and the wheel slides a bit and then suddenly GRABS hard, you have three thousand pounds hitting those spindles. 

AMC made the outer stub of their spindles the same dimensions, we noted this and mount the bracket on the outside, so unless the bracket/caliper interfere with other suspension components it will work regardless of spindle base thickness.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/30/2018 at 6:23am
I had this discussion with a mechanical engineer when I was in the USAF and knew a couple in Civil Engineering. As far as the AMC spindle is concerned, there is no issue. The spindle clamps at a small flat surface around the bolt, no bigger than an average washer. The nut in question (a normal 1/2" nut, IIRC), is nearly the same diameter as the clamping surface. In effect all you're doing is extending the clamping surface. As long as the bolt is tight you're not increasing shear loads. This is according to the engineer who I took an actual spindle and nut. I wouldn't go crazy with spacing, I'm about 5/8" out IIRC. I don't think I'd have gone much (if any) further... maybe another washer, but that's about it.

I've had the spindles off since this was done in 2003... no signs of undue stress on the bolts or anything. Now if the bolts lost torque or weren't tight for some reason, it could add stress. Haven't checked anything under the car in a while, but when I have to work on anything on the front end I check to make sure everything is tight, as I have other mods to the steering and suspension. Always a good idea to check welds and bolt tightness when under there anyway.

That said, a plate or exact diameter spacer would be a better idea. Maybe I should have said the Scarebird kits will "fit all AMCs with minor mods". The Scarebird kits mount on TOP of the spindle, not behind it -- at least they did... this may have changed with the most recent design. The reason for doing it that way was to eliminate the different thickness spindles from the equation. The original AMC setup with Ford Ranger rotors mounted behind, and was sized for most drum brake spindles. Some of the big cars used a wider drum and slightly taller spindle, and all but the Bendix four piston disc brakes use a taller spindle.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Mar/30/2018 at 7:24am
One must be careful in where and how the calipers are mounted. Keep in mind AMC put the calipers in front of the steering axis because the steering arm itself bolts diagonally - the front bolt is low, the rear bolt is the upper one. 
 There's not a lot of space to flip the caliper to the rear of the steering axis. 

Take a look at this left side shot of the rear part of the parts - I question the clearance.
AMC put the calipers on the fronts of these cars, Concord, etc. - and to the rear on Eagle but then the steering arm and other parts are down low to clear the axle.




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Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/31/2018 at 7:38am
I always mount the calipers the way they came off the donor when possible. On the early AMCs with trunnions and that weren't made with disc brakes in mind I've had to swap them. The first calipers I swapped onto a 63 American. Calipers were originally mounted to front (79+ brakes), but I had to mount to the rear for clearance issues.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Mar/31/2018 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by Scarebird Scarebird wrote:

AMC made the outer stub of their spindles the same dimensions, we noted this and mount the bracket on the outside, so unless the bracket/caliper interfere with other suspension components it will work regardless of spindle base thickness.


this.

thanks scarebird for the continuing tweaking of your systems. i've had two maybe generations of them. the previous one i had to grind a bit to fit the '63 American (after which it worked perfectly) but then the next set solved it all issues out of the box. it sits outboard so it not longer cares about spindle height. nice.



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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com




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