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Starting issue

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC 6 Cylinder Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made I-6 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91750
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 2:04am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Starting issue
Posted By: Samreye
Subject: Starting issue
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 12:18am
I am not new here, but I have posted so long ago about an issue that I am having starting my 1967 rambler American 220.and I am back with the same problem!! I have done all of the wiring under the hood and can get it to crank and it tries drastically. smoke or exhaust coming out the back but it will not catch. it sounds like it wants to start. everything works, i.e. fuel pump coil,dizzy, oil pump.I have bought all new plugs,wires,cap,rotor, condenser,points, coil, voltage regulator and battery. I even ran my own line from the Ignition switch . I am wondering if it has anything to do with the voltage regulator that lives in the instrument cluster. I thought that my points dwell may be off but re did them again with no avail. I would really appreciate anybody’s suggestions here. A mate of mine will be coming over in a couple of days so I can spin the dizzy to see if I can catch it. Thanks so much for looking this over and in advance for the advice



Replies:
Posted By: rocklandrambler
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 2:11am
The IVR in the instrument cluster has NOTHING to do with your starting issue.  It merely regulates voltage for the fuel and temp gauges.  You changed a LOT of parts.  Go back and check EVERYTHING again.  Loose connections, plug wires in wrong order, dizzy installed incorrectly, etc.  BTW, what engine do you have?


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Past AMC's
1974 Hornet X (new)
1975 Gremlin X (new)
1964 Classic 660 Cross Country
1965 American 440-H


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 5:15am
Using a screw driver to open your points while holding the coil wire about a quarter inch away from ground will show what kind of spark you have.

Maybe try some premium gas?

Have you done a compression check?




Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 6:30am
How much slack is in your timing chain and is the engine timed properly?   

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Happiness is making something out of nothing.


Posted By: Samreye
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 6:57am
Thank you rocklandrambler, my motor is the 199 straight six. I appreciate the diagnosis. I’m 99% sure my dizzy is right. But that’s my next step. I’m quite sure I have things in the right order. I will re-check. Thanks again


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 7:01am
Timing is what it sounds like to me. Did you take the distributor out? Try loosening the hold-down bolt and turn the dizzy as far one way as you can. Hold it in position while someone cranks the engine. Slowly turn it while the engine is cranking. If timing is off just a bit it will fire and run when you get it in the right position. You could have it off a couple teeth on the gear though. If that's the case you need to run the front piston up to the top with both valves closed (on compression stroke). You can run a wire in the first spark plug hole to see if the piston is up as far as it will go. You can hold a finger over the hole while you turn the engine (I suggest removing all plugs and turn engine by hand) until you feel it "blow" your finger up... that's compression stroke, or use a compression gauge and watch t. Then set the dizzy in with the rotor pointing at the #1 spark plug wire on the cap. Remember that the rotor will move 3/8" or so when you put it in due to he angle of the gear. Either compensate when you put it in or rotate the body so the rotor is right with the dizzy all the way in. That will be in the ball park and the engine should run -- adjust body rotation until it idles smooth, then take it for a test run. If no spark knock accelerating or pulling up a hill, you're good.

I'd advance it (when you rotate by hand, the direction the idle pick up) a bit and road test again until you do get spark knock, then back off a bit. That is "setting timing by ear". The factory settings are for 1960s gasoline... formulas changed over the years and today's gasoline wants more timing. If you set it by a timing light you probably need to advance it a bit. Also, the balancer outer ring can slip, which will throw your light off. If you set it by ear on a cold day you might have to turn timing down (the direction idle slows) a bit in the summer, or even if you change areas (altitude, different gas formulation). Just listen for a spark knock and keep a 1/2" wrench in the glove box when traveling. Or adjust your driving to compensate (slow down, less hard acceleration, etc.).


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: Samreye
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 7:03am
Absolutely right Vinny. The screw driver to hold the points away!! I have not worked on a points car in quite awhile and it slipped my mind. Thank you.


Posted By: Samreye
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 7:06am
Thank you paceman I will have a look at the timing chain. I didn’t think about that.


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 7:12am
You have changed a lot of electrical components. Have you confirmed whether or not you have good spark?


Posted By: Samreye
Date Posted: Jan/11/2018 at 7:29pm
Super thankful for everybody’s help. I went through the hoops again if that’s what you’d like to call them. With no avail. I have a feeling that because I’m not getting the power to the coil . The key ignition was missing when I got the car and I got a generic one and I wonder if that’s not the problem as I don’t have an accessory area before starting the car. Is There anyway to find out what the proper ignition would be for that car 1967 rambler American 220. 199 motor. Unfortunately when I bought this new generic key starter, I cut the wire harness plug I know the worst thing in the world I could do. But if anybody has any way of telling how or what kind of ignition to put in I would greatly appreciate it. Again thank you everyone for your ideals and thank you for your time


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Jan/11/2018 at 8:10pm
go get an inline spark tester from auto zone...pull one of the plug wires...put the tester inline between the plug wire and plug...have someone try to start the engine and watch the tester..if you see spark then the ignition system is good....do it at night so you can see the spark... 


Posted By: Samreye
Date Posted: Jan/11/2018 at 8:27pm
Thank you for the idea, or suggestion I should say.I have spark, it’s orange, not blue. My thought is I don’t have enough power or voltage going to my coil. I believe that because I don’t have a accessory on the ignition, so when I turn the key that I don’t have enough juice going to the coil at all times


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Jan/11/2018 at 8:31pm
run a hotwire from the battery to the positive side of the coil...make sure you disconnect the wire coming from the ignition switch first


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jan/11/2018 at 8:43pm
Orange won't run


Posted By: Samreye
Date Posted: Jan/11/2018 at 8:48pm
Thank you, is my theory corect then? Am I not getting enough voltage


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jan/11/2018 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by Samreye Samreye wrote:

Thank you, is my theory corect then? Am I not getting enough voltage
white or blue is what you need


Posted By: First_Gear
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 2:18am
The coil should specify whether or not it requires a ballast resistor make sure you follow the recommendation.


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 6:51am
Get a Chilton's Repair Manual for your car. If you can't find one for your specific model, just get one that is 'close' like this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-67-74-Matador-Rebel-Machine-REPAIR-TUNE-UP-MANUAL-CHILTONS-SERVICE-BOOK/252823955907?hash=item3add7b69c3:g:olwAAOSwax5Y0XvO&vxp=mtr

Get an AMC Technical Service Manual also... if not for your model, something like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-AMC-RAMBLER-AMERICAN-TECHNICAL-SERVICE-SHOP-REPAIR-MANUAL/111735077381?hash=item1a03edfa05:g:LVAAAOSwojRYSwwf&vxp=mtr






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443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc
XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 9:51am
http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Rambler/MWire5765-349.jpg

Your wiring diagram shows that it has an ignition resistor of which I was pretty sure of. The original coil will not last too long running full battery voltage to it but should be fine to get it started as that is what it shows in the diagram. BTW when I put a 232 from a 67 without changing the coil into my car that has no resistance wire it lasted only about 2 months. What ohm reading do you get across the + - terminals of your coil? I am thinking it should be 2 as that was what the original was.

I think you might have other problems like bad gas, low compression or bad timing.


Posted By: Lyle
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 11:23am
Check your coil and condenser also. I don't know how many times I've seen a 6V coil on a 12V system or the wrong coil output for the plugs installed.
My neighbor has a 6V system and NAPA sold him a lawnmower condenser, they didn't even know condensers were application specific. Needless to say it it not run well.
Once we got a correct value condenser for a straight 8 6V it runs great, lots more power and better mileage.
Even with a proper part number we went to NAPA and tested 5 to get 2 within spec. Cheap make, find Bosch if you can.


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 1:04pm
Agreeing with Lyle now, it very well could be a bad condenser. I had to replace one after the car had been sitting for a few years. Orange spark, lots of backfiring, missing, as well as hard to start. My daughter was getting lost of comments on the car but she really complained that she could not keep it running. 


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 5:32pm
Yeah, could be a bad condensor. But run a jumper wire from battery + to coil + and try that first.

It really won't matter if you don't disconnect the ignition wire first. You' will still only get 12V, and running 12V back to the ignition switch won't hurt either. It's not like you would be grounding it, it would just be like two wires run parallel from the battery to the coil.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: Samreye
Date Posted: Jan/25/2018 at 9:16pm
Right so I want to thank all of you for the details and the amount of diligence. I got her started!!! It was because I had a faulty after market key ignition that was sold to me brand new!! Replaced it with a delco remy five post and did a little under dash mod. I want to put an original one back in where it belongs. Does anyone know where to locate one? Thanks to all so much again. I do have a question on the nipple coming out between the carb and valve cover. My tsm states it for an air guard system. I don’t have any other of the bits and bobs that go with the system. Does it need to be connected for a vacuum of sorts



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