Help!!! fresh rebuilt won't start.
Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91652
Printed Date: Apr/23/2024 at 10:47pm
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Topic: Help!!! fresh rebuilt won't start.
Posted By: Jay68SST
Subject: Help!!! fresh rebuilt won't start.
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 9:52am
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Ok, I need some help. I have a fresh rebuild that I am trying to start for the first time. It is a 360 with flat top pistons from a 343 which puts me about 10.8:1. Cam is: Lift .473/.497, Duration Int/Exh degrees 289/300, Duration @.050 214/224, lobe center 112. I have a Edelbrock Performer Intake Manifold 2131 with a Holly 650 vacuum assist carburetor and an aftermarket HEI distributor. I cannot get the engine to start, it will almost fire up but not all the way. I was initially 180 degrees out on the timing, but since I have checked the timing 3 more times. I took 1 spark plug out bumped over till compression stroke and set timing mark on dampener to 10 degrees BTD. Dropped in distributor with rotor pointed to # 1 spark plug wire location. I've checked firing order multiple times. I am getting fuel. I am getting spark, but it just won't start. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Replies:
Posted By: matty 401
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 10:45am
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have tried messing with the timing ------------- 72 matador 401 the beast 79 concord 2 door 72 matador 304 grasshopper 68 Rogue 406 93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 10:55am
Yes, I have advanced and retarded the distributor. I am at a loss. I am beginning to think it might be the distributor. Single wire, aftermarket and it so big that it won't rotate all that much. It will almost start but just won't.
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matty 401 wrote:Posted By: myrambler
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 11:13am
| Jay I would try installing a factory distributer that is good. Some of the aftermarket distributors and electronic ignition need a full twelve volts to operate. The resister wire to coil limits voltage to around 8-9 volts. Maybe even a working carb from another vehicle. |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 11:22am
Elaborate on what you are saying here. Engine fires sporadically? Engine starts running but won't stay running? Engine runs with starter engaged but dies once starter is released? ------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: tached_out
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 11:56am
| Your timing may be further off than you think. Check it with the light while you are cranking to make sure you are in the ballpark. |
Posted By: myrambler
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 12:42pm
| Jay did you have Damper Doctor rebuild the harmonic balancer? If not It may be off and not at a true top dead center. What did you use for timing chain set up? If you have fuel and a good spark you should fire unless timing is way off. |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 1:52pm
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I guess I should explain a little better on the starting. When cranking it will fire sporadically, running open headers and you can hear it pop and fire but just won't completely start. I didn't have the harmonic balancer rebuilt because it read 0 degrees when I had #1 cylinder at TDC. I followed the AMC manual to a T on installing the timing chain making sure the dots were perfect and even counted the links like the book says. That was my next move is to install my factory 343 distributor with points, just need to get a coil and wires. I just ordered a different distributor with smaller cap, as the large HEI doesn't allow me to rotate very far...just didn't think I would have this much of a problem. |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 2:31pm
That would be a good move to try a points distributor. For an initial break in I'll typically use a points distributor because you can get the timing on the money, before firing, with a test light and eliminate one source of confusion. ------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: gremlinsteve
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 2:40pm
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Sounds like the compression is off Like it's got to long a pushrods in it |
Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 3:05pm
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Cheapo distributor, Try a factory distributor first, then switch to an MSD Ready to Run Billet Distributor. I installed one on the WhiteJavelin. It doesn't seem to care about the incoming voltage being reduced by the resistor wire. ------------- 70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972 |
Posted By: SKeown
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 5:06pm
Popping sporadically sounds like the valve timing is off. Rotate to true TDC on #1 and check if both valves are closed on that cylinder. SKeown
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Posted By: motorhead_1
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 5:24pm
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cam not ground correctly? not degreed? ------------- 69 SC/Rambler tribute 401/th400, 68 Rebel SST LSA, 66 F100 460/c6, 88 Merkur Xr4Ti, 71 Jaguar XJ6 LS1, 08 Supercharged Tundra |
Posted By: SKeown
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 5:38pm
Possibly, I've seen it before, a keyway off on the cam or one of the sprockets. That's why cams (particularly aftermarket) and timing sets should be checked by "degreeing"  |
Posted By: THE MENACE
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 5:46pm
X 2 on what Steve said! ------------- Former Owner of: The Craig Breedlove "AERO AMX" Still Owner: SS/AMX #9 replica (THE BIG MENACE) 70 AMX 416, EFI, Nash 5 speed 70 Javelin 401, 727 (Wife's car) 72 Gremlin Autocross Project. |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 7:32pm
| Looks like I will be removing the valve covers and make sure the valves are closed when TDC for each cylinder. Pushrods are stock length, so that should not be the problem. When finding TDC for#1 to set timing, I took the spark plug out and placed my thumb over and I could not keep my thumb over the hole while the engine turned over, I guess we will see this weekend. |
Posted By: Boris Badanov
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 8:00pm
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Quick compression check first. ------------- Gremlin Dreams |
Posted By: dbomb
Date Posted: Jan/04/2018 at 11:56am
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I'd check compression like Boris says also with plugs in and choke closed hookup a vacuum gauge see if it makes vacuum while cranking. If it doesn't. Try to loosen valves a turn or so. Block off all external vacuum points to brakes and pcv and stuff Or if it's been rebuilt long long ago squirt some oil in the cyls see if it improves. Sometimes you can get dry cyls or cyl wash from a droopy carb washing oil off cyls Old timers used to smoke a ciggy and put ciggy over carb to see if engine would pull the smoke in while cranking. Was a good parking lot test to see if timing chain jumped. I know you stated you followed Tsm instructions but it's possible that the intake is leaking underneath or valves are not ground correctly like seats and valves cut at wrong angles. If it's been apart for a long time Could there be critters living in the exhaust?? Good luck ------------- rebuiling 73 amx need parts |
Posted By: dbomb
Date Posted: Jan/04/2018 at 12:00pm
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Sorry didn't see open headerscomment ------------- rebuiling 73 amx need parts |
Posted By: dbomb
Date Posted: Jan/04/2018 at 12:05pm
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Make sure vacuum secondaries are closed when cranking if they are open it won't pull enough fuel to start ------------- rebuiling 73 amx need parts |
Posted By: dbomb
Date Posted: Jan/04/2018 at 12:19pm
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Not to scare you but best to keep a fire extinguisher ready ------------- rebuiling 73 amx need parts |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/04/2018 at 3:45pm
Always do! Been so darn cold outside I have the radiant heat on and the overhead door open just to try and get it running.
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Posted By: scramboy
Date Posted: Jan/04/2018 at 4:18pm
| IIRC a Hei distributor needs 12v all the time I think a Delco gets 12 only in the start position and goes to approx 10 in the run position. Maybe why it tries to start. Experts correct me if I'm wrong. |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 10:51am
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Had a little time yesterday to try and get my engine started. I took out the aftermarket HEI Distributor. Cranked the motor to get TDC compression stroke #1 piston Dropped in the OEM distributor with rotor pointing towards #1 spark plug. Connected all wire to coil also checked for power going to the coil. Installed plug wires 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Turned on electric fuel pump and waited for a few seconds. Checked to make sure the carburetor was fueling by moving the accelerator on the carburetor and saw fuel being sprayed into intake. When I turned key to start the engine briefly came to life (less than a second) and then just cranked over not trying to fire at all. Rotated the dizzy to the left tried to fire and the engine again just for a instant fired up then it just cranked with no attempt to fire up. Finally it go to the point where it would just only crank. I turned the distributor back to initial settings and started to rotate the dizzy to the right. And it would do the same but after rotating the dizzy approximately 1/4 turn it still wouldn't start. It did seem like it wanted to start better rotating the dizzy to the right, though. Next step this weekend will be: 1. Take the spark plugs out and valve covers off. Going to verify the correct position of the valves while rotating by hand, also try and find a compression tester to check compression for each cylinder 2. Again look at the intake and carburetor to make sure no vacuum line and all ports have lines or plugs. Any other recommendation before I pull off the timing chain cover to verify I installed the cam and timing chain correctly? Again, thank you all for you input!
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Posted By: Lyle
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 11:48am
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90 degrees (1/4 turn) is 2 whole firing order numbers off,
360 degrees/8= 45 degrees. I think you are making too much adjustment, recheck
your firing order clockwise starting at #1. If you have an old distributor drill a ¼” hole between #2
and #1 and rotate your distributor so you can see half the rotor towards #1.
This should be near 10 to 15 degrees initial advance and a good place to start.
Center to the hole would be 22-1/2 degrees initial advance if you have a
radical cam. If the balancer timing mark is not correct in advance position doing
this then your cam gear is not installed correctly. If the timing mark is good then try a start. But distributor
adjustment is a small rotation. |
Posted By: tached_out
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 1:01pm
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You are all over the place with your timing. STOP Before you wipe out your new cam or even worse cause a fire. You need to verify your timing is close enough for the engine to start and immediately come up to break in rpm. Better still take the time to get it dead on. At this point you should NOT be adding any fuel to the equation. You have an electric fuel pump. This makes it easy. Leave it of. The carb should be dry so there's no chance of the engine starting or casing a fire. Simply put the timing light on the engine while you crank it over. Check to see where the spark is occurring. 10 degrees is a good starting point. Make adjustment. Check again to verify. Now you can move on with confidence that spark timing is where it needs to be. I mentioned this on page one of this thread. With all the advice you're getting perhaps you didn't notice. |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 2:14pm
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That is exactly what I am not wanting to do and why I am worried. Don't want to wipe my cam and burn my car up. I haven't had the chance to do the timing light yet as I am usually by myself, will need to make a remote starter to do the timing light and turn the motor over. About the 10 degrees advanced advice. I have already tried that. I've set the timing mark on the balancer @ the 10 degree mark (advance/Before TDC) and set the rotor exactly on the #1 location on the cap.
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Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 2:16pm
| Does your timing set have 3 keyways in the crank gear or 1? |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 3:06pm
Just 1 keyway
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Posted By: S Curry
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 3:26pm
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Does it die after releasing the ignition switch and in the run position? I set initial timing this way. Verify TDC at the piston location and timing mark on the balancer. Back the crank up to 5 degrees advanced on the timing marks. Pull number one plug wire, put in a plug lay it on the manifold somewhere to ground it. Turn the ignition to on. Slowly move the distributor until you see a spark. Stop at the moment spark occurs. Should be within a couple of degrees and get you running. Now, does spark occur when you do this? If not there lies your problem. ------------- SC |
Posted By: S Curry
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 3:28pm
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Wished I could edit my post. Line up TDC and timing marks on the #1 piston. ------------- SC |
Posted By: tached_out
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 3:32pm
According to what you have posted. You have not. Your method is not accurate, it is an approximation. As I said in my first post, ''You may be further off than you think." The method I described is sure fire. It will verify with proof that the timing is where it MUST be. Now you can move on to starting by adding fuel with the knowledge that the timing is in fact where it must be. If your cam and lifters are new the engine will be slow to start because there is no oil in the lifter. It will fire but will need to run a few seconds for them to fill and begin to run normally. It needs all the help it can get by having the timing well within the ballpark. Dead on is better. The method I'm suggesting will verify it is in fact dead on.
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Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Jan/09/2018 at 10:51pm
If you have the point style OEM distributor in the engine, and you are confident the harmonic damper TDC mark is accurate, with the engine off, set the mark on the damper to about 10 degrees advanced on the timing scale. Hook up a test light to the distributor lead. With the timing rough set as you did, with the ignition on and the engine off, rotate the distributor against rotation until the test light comes on. This will set your timing to within a degree if done carefully. I always set initial timing with a point distributor using this method. Eliminates all the screwing around on initial fire. Shoot, Volkswagen set their timing like this for decades. ------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Jan/10/2018 at 7:57am
| If your timing is in question, pull all of the plugs out and time the engine by turning it over with the starter. Set it at TDC or slightly advanced. Put the plugs back in and start it. If it doesn't start, there is another issue. |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/10/2018 at 8:32am
On my initial post, I said i set the timing at 10 degrees before TDC and set the rotor at #1 spark plug location. I just haven't used a timing light yet to check, which I will be doing this weekend. So far every time before trying spin the oil pump with a drill to prelube. I get 20-25 psi oil pressure with a drill.
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Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Jan/10/2018 at 8:55am
And use a TIMING LIGHT for crying out loud.. |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/10/2018 at 8:57am
Going to this weekend. Thank you.
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Posted By: Greyhounds_AMX
Date Posted: Jan/11/2018 at 9:22pm
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What is the compression like? ------------- 1968 AMX 390 w/T5 |
Posted By: madmax
Date Posted: Jan/11/2018 at 9:46pm
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how did you adjust your valves/lifter pre load? are your rocker arms adjustable or just torque down style? ------------- American Heavy Metal restoration parts and mechanical restoration services 70 amx black 1968 kaplan amx ss/racecar 1969 amx racecar 1970 trans am javelin 1969 amx white/platinum 1972 gremlin |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 7:48am
Compression is 10.8:1, I am using the flat top pistons out of a 343. Everything else is pretty much stock. Bore, hydraulic lifters, rockers and stock length pushrods. |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 7:49am
Stock hydraulic lifters, and stock torque down style rockers. |
Posted By: Greyhounds_AMX
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 9:16am
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I meant to say, what do the compression test numbers look like for each cylinder? If the compression is correct, you probably can rule out cam or valve related issues and focus on spark and fuel. What does the spark look like? Blue/white, orange, etc and how far will it jump? Is there fuel? Maybe run the throttle by hand and make sure the shooter squirts smoothly. Also pull the fuel filter and see if you can shake and rust dust out of it. ------------- 1968 AMX 390 w/T5 |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 3:36pm
Going to checking all that on Sunday. I am pulling off the valve covers, taking out the spark plugs and turn by hand to verify my cam setting is correct. I am also going to check the compression of each cylinder also. Once I verify everything I am going to set #1 cylinder TDC on compression and drop the distributor in pointed at #1 spark. Going to follow the manual that I have and advance the distributor until the points just barely open. Before I put the plugs back in I am going to set the timing with a timing light, and check the spark and re-gap all the plugs As for fuel, I am running an electric fuel pump and it works fine, I have it remotely setup running out of a 5 gallon fuel can. The carb was tested and tuned on another engine (MOPAR big block 400) and basically removed from one and put on the other. Hopefully this weekend it will fire and run, if not it is coming out.
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Posted By: tomslik
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 3:51pm
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any chance the distributor gear is slipping on the distributor shaft? roll pin broke+/or missing? ------------- 67 american 290/4speed |
Posted By: Red20
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 4:11pm
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I’m wondering how your fuel pump is wired. Wonder if there’s an issue there. I use an oil pressure switch in mine. Closed under 10+ lbs pressure and closed under cranking. What I mean to say is that power from the starter solenoid goes to the normally closed terminal and triggers the fuel pump relay while cranking then power from the ignition switch run terminal goes to the normally open terminal that closes when there’s fuel pressure and powers the fuel pump relay. Not 100% necessary to do that, but maybe look at fuel pressure and your pump wiring in general. Are you using a bypass regulator and return line? Does the pump fill the bowls and hit your desired pressure then maintain pressure under cranking? Look at your carb setup as well. Though this does indeed sound like a timing/valve issue, is your secondary throttle stop screwed in too much and allowing your secondaries to draw in too much air while cranking? There are a lot of little things that could be affecting you, but generally if your carb will give you some fuel and your timing is close and you have spark, it should at least run. ------------- 1969 Javelin SST "Screamin' Banana" - Totaled Feb 2018 1973 Hornet Sportabout X "yellajack" - 360/727/TracLoc DAILY DRIVER |
Posted By: madmax
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 1:24am
chances are your lifter preload is too much and holding the valves slightly open thus reducing the cranking compression needed to fire the cylinders. i have built lots of amc engines as well as others, i have always needed to shim the pedestals to get the proper lifter preload when using other than stock cams. crane and comp both sell kits for this. you will need to have the intake off to do this correctly. iircc the lifter preload should be .040 to .060 its a little hard to measure but if you watch the plunger on the lifter as you tighten the rocker arm bolt it should just start to move down from the retainer on the lifter body plus aprox a 1/4 turn. hope this helps here is a link on setting preload http://cranecams.com.au/pdfs/pp1110c.pdf
------------- American Heavy Metal restoration parts and mechanical restoration services 70 amx black 1968 kaplan amx ss/racecar 1969 amx racecar 1970 trans am javelin 1969 amx white/platinum 1972 gremlin |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 10:49am
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Did you install the cam gear with the cam key in the oil slot? ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: Lucas660
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 2:13pm
| Hopefully the fuel can is not on the ground with the pump above it. It would be struggling to prime the pump. Just my 2c from what I've read. |
Posted By: tached_out
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 2:45pm
NO! STOP. This is wrong. If you do this your points will be on the back side of the cam in the distributor. Your timing will be off by a mile. You have to RETARD the distributor so the points come up onto the front of the cam. Remember when the engine is running, the cam comes up to the points which are stationary.
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Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 3:40pm
Instead of "advance" I should have said "rotate". This just get it close. I have a 1968 AMC Service manual and that is how they say to set ignition timing. Page 4-28 and 4-29. I am going time with a timing light by cranking the motor over without starting (spark plugs will be out, no fuel either).
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Posted By: tached_out
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 4:27pm
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Please let me clarify. If the manual says advance the distributor, I'm assuming (perhaps erroneously) that you plan to achieve that by turning the distributor in a clockwise direction. If so, this is wrong. This is advancing the distributor's position in the block but it has the opposite effect on timing. In a running engine, the distributor shaft rotates clockwise. When adjusting the spark timing you advance the spark by rotating the distributor housing counterclockwise, against the direction the shaft turns. You retard spark by rotating the distributor housing clockwise, in the direction the shaft turns. In your case, setting timing in a not running engine, if you want to make the points open when they should by rotating the distributor, you have to turn it backwards against shaft rotation so the points open on the front of the cam. This is advancing the spark, but it is retarding the position of the distributor in the block. I'm sorry if I confused the issue.
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Posted By: tached_out
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 4:43pm
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Even with this said, you're going to be off with your initial setting. You should be setting initial timing at more like 10 degrees not TDC. Plus you should use a test light to determine accurately when the points are opening, not watching to see when they begin to open. Your timing light will tell you how close or far off you were if you use it to check your timing before you attempt to start it.
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Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 5:15pm
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10 degrees BTDC (before top dead center).
------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/15/2018 at 11:39am
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Well, I had a little time between snow storms to make it out to the shop. I removed all the spark plugs and I also removed the valve covers. The plugs were little wet from fuel. I did a compression test and all 8 cylinders had a compression between 147-150 psi. So I ruled out valves not closing. I followed a couple of the recommendations here. I watched #6 cylinder valves and just when they started to open I checked #1 cylinder and it was on the compression stroke, the compression gauge was also showing compression. The timing mark on the balance was @ 5 degrees BTDC. So I left it there. I checked my distributor and the rotor was right on they #1 spark plug location. I then installed the rotor and inserted a plug into the #1 wire, and checked the spark. I believe this is my problem as my spark was intermittent and a very pale orange color, not the sharp crisp blue it needs to be. Going to get new plugs, wires, rotor and coil and go from there. Once I get everything I am going to time to 10 BTDC without the plugs in. I will let everyone know as things progress.
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Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/28/2018 at 6:56pm
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YES!!!!! I finally got it running. It was spark! Bought a new HEI distributor, new wires and new plugs. Installed them and it fired up immediately. I ran it for about 20-25 minutes at 2000-2200 RPMs to break in the cam. Oil pressure was great, and temp never rose above 180. I then set the idle removed the vacuum advance line and set the timing at 10 degrees TDC. What even makes it better was that it is my birthday, what a great birthday gift! Video below https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5uGLI2jHwA&feature=youtu.be
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Posted By: 73hornut
Date Posted: Jan/28/2018 at 7:03pm
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That is good news, Happy birthday!
------------- 71 Javelin 74 Gremlin 79 Spirit AMX Rogue Valley Rumblers Like Us on FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/1602825606650796" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1602825606650796 |
Posted By: myrambler
Date Posted: Jan/28/2018 at 7:18pm
| Happy birthday Jay and congratulations. This is awesome news. So glad to hear it wasn't something major. |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/28/2018 at 7:26pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5uGLI2jHwA&feature=youtu.be
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Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/28/2018 at 7:44pm
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Good job. Now I hope you installed the matched distributor gear on the new distributor!! Don't use the one that came on the distributor from the box!!! ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: Jay68SST
Date Posted: Jan/28/2018 at 8:51pm
Yes, I changed the gear, read too many horror stories.
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Posted By: pit crew
Date Posted: Jan/28/2018 at 8:57pm
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Congrats and Happy Birthday.
-------------  73 Hornet - 401EFI - THM400 - Twin Grip 20 |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/29/2018 at 6:28am
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Same here!
------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: Jan/29/2018 at 9:47am
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Now your talking ! Happy happy day ! ------------- 70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972 |