Print Page | Close Window

which 6 cyl is in my 64 american wagon?

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC 6 Cylinder Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made I-6 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91429
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 2:38am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: which 6 cyl is in my 64 american wagon?
Posted By: auag85201
Subject: which 6 cyl is in my 64 american wagon?
Date Posted: Dec/18/2017 at 3:47pm
on a 64 american 330 wagon...how do i tell what size 6 cyl is in it?....was 196 the only option or did they put others in it too?



Replies:
Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Dec/18/2017 at 5:17pm
The 196 either flathead or OHV was the only engine available in the 64 Americans. AMC was only interested in the human race. Joe

-------------
Happiness is making something out of nothing.


Posted By: ramblinrev
Date Posted: Dec/18/2017 at 5:18pm
Should be the OHV 196 on a 330 wagon.


-------------
74 Hornet Hatchback X twins (since 1977)
62 American Convertible (still worth the $50 I spent in 1973!) AMCRC #513, AMO #384
70 AMX 360 4-speed (since 1981)


Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Dec/18/2017 at 5:34pm
I am pretty sure that the flathead 195.6 was only on the 220 American. All others received the OHV.

I am also pretty sure the only 1964 model to receive the new 232 six was the Rambler Classic Typhoon. 1965 the 232 was expanded across all models and the new 199 became available that same year as well.  


-------------
1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/18/2017 at 5:41pm
thanks for the replies....is the 196 a pretty tough little engine?


Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Dec/18/2017 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by auag85201 auag85201 wrote:

thanks for the replies....is the 196 a pretty tough little engine?
Yes. You're not going to blow it up so long as you maintain it according to factory recommendations if that is what you are wondering. It's one of those engines you can probably run flat-out floored nonstop and it'll just keep going. The biggest threat to a 196 is lack of proper maintenance, not how you drive it. That goes for most engines. 

-------------
1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/18/2017 at 11:10pm
the car has 3 on the tree...there is a pull cable under dash labeled overdrive..are these three speeds with overdrive pretty good trans?....is first gear synchonized?..it may be a while before i get it running as i have to scrounge up a few parts for it....everything under hood is intact except the radiator 


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Dec/18/2017 at 11:21pm
maybe you should tell us a bit more about this car...

before you do much driving this thing i would strenuously suggest you do the following things:

* buy a technical service manual -- the factory one, not any aftermarket book, AMC only. you absoltely need this.

* with that, you need to re-torque the cylinder head. it was, 50 years ago, considered "maintenance" in spite of the fact that probably no one you'll talk to has ever heard of such a thing. it s a long story but well known that in this particular engine the headgaskets leak with leads to cooling system problems culminating in total engine faire when it's let go for long enough.

unless you know for certain that this has been done recently (eg. previous owner) you need to assume its not done. 

the rest are just "old car" things...

* change all fluids before you drive it, especially if it's sat. this goes for the gas tank -- old gas will ruing that engine in short order, days to weeks. this is a certainty. "old" would be, guessing, a year or more. if tis more than that do not start it at all on that gas. it must be drained!

* expect all of the rubber fuel lines to leak and fail. mostly just age, but the older hoses are not compatible with new gas. you can wait til they leak. there's some rubber hose where the tank meets the steel line, not miuch of it, but it is an annoying place to leak. 

that's a lovely car, good luck with it!



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Dec/18/2017 at 11:24pm
Since no one seems to have recommended it it yet I strongly urge you to get a service manual for your car. They are available for about $40 from several sources including EBay.   It will be money well spent.
You have the Borg Warner T96 transmission with overdrive. First gear is not synchronized. On the grand scale of things they can be considered weak, but are adequate for the engine you have. They were also used in Studebakers and Early Ford Falcons, which should also give you a hint about their relative strength. I do also own and drive a Rambler Classic with the same model transmission.

-------------
Happiness is making something out of nothing.


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/18/2017 at 11:44pm
thanks for the replies...i just got the car..it has been sitting for years..i dont want to dump any money into it until i can get it running and make sure the motor is in good shape...i just need to scrounge up a cheap radiator to stick in it and get it running...its an arizona car so its pretty much rust free..looks like it has been painted once and its ready for paint again...lol


Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Dec/19/2017 at 12:15am
The only reason to be concerned about the durability of any components in your engine or drivetrain is if you plan on pumping significantly more power through those components than they were originally designed to handle. They will perform with perfect satisfaction with stock or mild power increases. 

If a Chevy swap is on your mind then yeah, you're going to blow the original drivetrain. Easy solution: don't swap it. 

Unsynchronized first is no big deal. You really only use first to get the car rolling anyway. Either wait until the car is fully stopped to downshift to 1st, shift into it at the speed the car idles at in 1st gear with the clutch out and your foot off the gas, or double clutch it at higher speed. Never "ham fist" the shift. Just gently ease it in. They are big spur gears with rounded edges and some minor clash isn't going to kill them. 




-------------
1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/19/2017 at 12:27am
thanks...i plan on keeping it bone stock...i want to drive it and the main reason i bought it is they are supposed to get great gas mileage....non synchro first gear is not a problem..i was just curious....the car has 92k on it...the motor looks fairly clean so hopefully it will run as good as it looks...lol


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/19/2017 at 6:34am
I drove a 63 American with 196 OHV for 14 years ... as my daily driver. They are tough, but do require more maintenance than a modern engine.

1. As TomJ mentioned TORQUE THE HEAD BOLTS before you drive it much. You don't have to worry about any tightening sequence if you just do one at a time. Back off the bolt (NOT with your torque wrench!), then put torque wrench on set at 62 ft/lbs and tighten back down. The valve cover has to come off to get to half the bolts. Don't over-tighten the two valve cover bolts. Snug down is it. If it appears to be leaking at the back get a new gasket and make sure the cover isn't warped or bent around the edges. The gasket is like a bog rubber o-ring -- no sealer used.  Torque the head every 10-12K miles or every three years -- whichever is first. If you don't do this, you could end up with the motor running hot and a cracked head. This is necessary because that is one BIG chunk of cast iron head, and it expands and contracts just enough to eventually loosen the bolts. I torqued every other year and averaged 7K a year on my car, so went 13-14K on occasion.

2. The valves use mechanical lifters and they need to be adjusted about the same time you torque the head bolts. It should sound like a well oiled sewing machine all the time. The clearances for the valves are on the intake plate. Valves are supposed to be adjusted with engine at full operating temp. It won't throw oil around with the valve cover off. Valve arrangement is I-E-E-I-I-E-E-I-I-E-E-I.  Use a feeler gauge and push it between the tip of valve and rocker with engine running. Takes a little practice, but you'll get it the first time you try it. Push it in and out as you tighten/loosen the adjuster nut on the end of the rocker. Holding the wrench on that moving nut it a little disconcerting at first, but easy. It should make no noise with the gauge in place, sewing machine when it's removed. A little loose is better than a little tight. Loose and you lose just a little lift and power, but you won't notice a 1-2 hp loss. Too tight and you could burn a valve -- you'll notice that as the cylinder won't make full compression and power will drop as oil and fuel consumption go up... and it may smoke too.

3. There are a few things you can do to make it better ad less likely to overheat. Main thing is a little cooling mod TomJ came up with. Don't think you need the electric water pump system he has -- scroll to the bottom of the page for the 65 factory solution. You could get a 65 water pump then drill and tap the bottom of the thermostat pod on the front of the head, but if you have a good water pump just drill and tap fora 90 degree fitting and run a short hose to a T in the heater hose from the water pump. Same results.  http://6ohv.com/Cooling-system/index.html" rel="nofollow - http://6ohv.com/Cooling-system/index.html
While this might affect overall cooling, it has more benefit (more stable head temps) than any other cooling effects. At worst it will take slightly longer to warm up and the engine might run just a bit cooler than without the mod. Keep the 195 degree t-stat!  That was factory even before this modification. Running a cooler t-stat won't really help either. The head just gets really hot before the t-stat opens, and a cooler t-stat will still have the high temp swings even if they are few degrees less. a 160 t-stat is just too cool, and a 180 not enough difference.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/19/2017 at 6:47am
One more thing... the transmission. It's junk for any kind of performance driving, but for a cruiser is just fine. You basically have a four speed transmission -- the three standard gears then OD. As already mentioned, DO NOT use first gear to slow the car (don't down-shift into first)! You should be stopped or darn near stopped (maybe 5 mph...) before going into first. It's a torquey engine even at idle -- it won't choke down or jerk like a modern car will if you're going too slow for a gear -- it will just chug away like a tractor! It will start in second easy enough, but doing that a lot (from a dead stop) will be hard on the clutch. As long as you're rolling 5-10 mph taking off in second isn't a problem at all.

The 196 isn't a modern engine. I wasn't kidding when I said "like a tractor"! It's a relatively slow turning motor. Long stroke, small bore... like a farm tractor. It's good for economy, but takes a bit to get rpm up compared to modern engines. It was designed in the late 30s, first came out as a 172.6 flat-head in 1941 , converted to OHV in 1956. The conversion is why the head is so big. No, you can't bolt an OHV head to the old flat-head, they changed the block a bot, but all internal parts (except valve related) will actually interchange.

Once you get it going we can talk about the OD. To start I'd pull the handle (which locks OD out) and get it going like that. With the handle out you have a standard three speed trans. With the handle in it will free-wheel when OD isn't engaged. That means no engine braking or parking in gear -- it will roll off! When I had an OD car the only time I used that handle was when parking, but you could use the parking brake instead. Oh... or push starting the car... that won't work with the handle in.  The important thing is to not pull the handle while the car is in OD. Best not to pull it while the car is in motion at all, but as long as OD isn't engaged you can.

To engage OD all you have to do is be running about 30+ mph and let off the gas -- OD will automatically come in. To go disengage OD you either drop below about 30 mph, or floor the accelerator. That will work like passing gear in an automatic trans. There is a fairly complex electrical circuit that probably has a failed component if OD doesn't work, or the kick-down (floored throttle) doesn't work. When you get to that point I (and I'm sure others!) can help track down the issue.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/19/2017 at 4:55pm
is the od operated by a solenoid?


Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Dec/19/2017 at 5:18pm
Yes,  and as far as I know all the solenoids for the Borg Warners (in AMCs) are the same except that they are 12 volt solenoids after the cars changed to 12 volts.  

-------------
Happiness is making something out of nothing.


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Dec/19/2017 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by auag85201 auag85201 wrote:

thanks for the replies...i just got the car..it has been sitting for years..i dont want to dump any money into it until i can get it running and make sure the motor is in good shape...

but this is precisely what ruins all of these old 'sat for years' motors. these are no longer 'old cars', they are antiques. there is a much higher probability that running it before addressing it will ruin it. very high.

changing all the fluids and re-torquing the head is pretty much mandatory. and it is stiull likely that in a week a month or a few you'll hear the inevitable rod knock because the oil that's been between bearing and crank and rod journals has hardened and spinning it up will immediately damage them, which manifests with failure in a few months.

and you gotta wonder why it was parked in the first place... people don't generally abandon solid runners.

i realize i sound grouchy here, and for that i apologize. i don't want to ruin your fun or rain on your parade, but metal is metal, and this is all too predictable. many of us have done all of these things.  in fact there's a thread about this very failure mode now!

http://theamcforum.com/forum/rod-knocking-196_topic91360.html" rel="nofollow - http://theamcforum.com/forum/rod-knocking-196_topic91360.html



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Dec/19/2017 at 8:41pm
what frank sez on the cooling system. after all is said and done, all you need to do is to drill a hole in the edge of the thermostat, and orient the hole frontwards. simple! it's an old trick, i certainly didn't come up with it, and it has other advantages (burping out air bubbles etc.) but it's certainly cheap and effective. and on the 195.6, mandatory!




-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/19/2017 at 8:54pm
tom...i was an auto mechanic for 25 years..and in that period of time i brought many cars that were sitting for years back to life and never experienced what you are talking about..the truck i'm driving now sat for two years...i drive it every day with no rod knocksWink 


Posted By: nickleone
Date Posted: Dec/20/2017 at 12:37am
Cheap radiator?
I put a 1995 Explorer radiator in my 1962 Classic with a 196.
Had to fab up hoses and a mount.
Pull a Part radiator was $25.00.
I did tomjs fix for the cooling.

Nick


-------------
nick
401 71 Gremlin pro rally car sold
390 V8 SX/4 pro rally car sold
1962 Classic SW T5 4 wheel disc brakes


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/20/2017 at 12:41am
thanks nick..i was looking at a 2001 chevy s10...the hoses are on the correct side and inlet and outlet are the right diameter...i might try to cob it in and see how it works...toms fix?...


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/20/2017 at 6:48am
I've never done more than change the oil in a car that has sat for years in the woods/barn/etc. either. Certainly won;t hurt to pull the pan, clean it, and inspect a rod bearing or two, and a main, but I'd fire it up first myself.

One thing not mentioned though is to NOT use the gas tank! If fuel evaporated in it there will be a residue caoting the bottom. Modern gas with alcohol will dissolve that mess and pull it through the engine. The result is usually sticky valves. Tom and I have both experienced that, him from a car that sat a long time and mine from one that sat 8-9 months (but tank was old, but had never been completely dry.. this was 12-13 years after it had sat for 3-4 years, and was driven all those 12-13 years!). So pull the fuel line from the fuel pump to tank and run a new line into a quart - gallon container you can hang somewhere under the hood. 1/2 gallon milk jug will do, or a gallon anti-freeze/oil jug. Hang on the passenger side, since exhaust is on the driver's side. Drop the tank and clean it before using.

Not too hard to clean, pour something like Awesome, Simply Green, or Purple Power into it -- about a gallon of the concentrate with a gallon of water (50/50 mix). Let it sit in the bottom of the tank overnight. Slosh it around first, then slosh real good before draining. If you get a lot of rust out you can clean again using brick cleaning acid or grout cleaner. Follow directions for dilluting as if cleaning brick, and get a small box of baking soda. Slosh that around good (won't hurt for it to sit overnight), then pour in the baking soda and slosh one last time. Neutralizes the acid and contents can be poured out down a drain. Then rinse with water until it comes out clean (with either cleaner). I'd use a tank sealer after that just to coat the inside and hold down any loose particles that might break loose later. Hirsch makes a good sealer, as does Eastwood (which appears to be a copy of the Hirsch product... or rebranded). Both also make a kit with cleaners and good directions. As long as the tank has been cleaned and dried it's good. The dry time makes this a 2-3 day process, but you'll be glad you did. You might want to replace the steel line (brake line works), but I'm not so concerned about it as long as it is in good physical condition. A little residue through the engine (as from inside those lines) won't hurt -- it will clean out as you run it. It's the large amount that dissolves at once in the tank that's the big issue.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/20/2017 at 9:45am
frank...i'm with you..all i ever did was fresh oil...clean the carb...run the engine from a separate gallon jug till i can get the tank cleaned....on cleaning the tank..i'm kinda lazy i guess ..i dont even bother pulling the tank...i take a couple gallons of fresh gas..mix in some sea foam or essential lube (industrial fuel additive)...pour it in the tank...jump up and down on the rear bumper a few times to agitate it...let it sit overnight..pump it out..repeat the procedure one more time and its usually good to go...the new gas they are selling us is junk..its the ethanol they added...they removed all the good additives and put in that rotten ethanol....25 years ago a car could sit for 5 years and start right up with no problem....now if they sit for 6 months it wont start


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/21/2017 at 8:02am
Ethanol isn't a "bad additive". The only thing it does is dissolve all the old gunk in the tank. If you've only run ethanol added gas the tank will be really clean inside. It's just evaporated gas that is the issue. The chemical formulation has changed over the years to make gasoline vaporize easier. That also means parts of it will evaporate easier. So leave gas sitting for more than six months and it loses volatility (ability to ignite). My brother drained 2-3 year old gas out of a tank (2nd tank of a truck, transfer pump had quit with 1/2 a tank!) and it not only stunk to high heaven but it wouldn't even light. Thought he'd use it to start a brush fire... wrong!!

If you look at fuel system cleaners, the main ingredient is ethanol.  Ethanol got a bad rep at first for dissolving rubber. Well, it is corrosive in a pure form (10% in gasoline doesn't do much), and you need a specific type of "rubber" to use with it. Well, nothing made over the last 30 years is susceptible to ethanol. So unless you're trying to use an NOS carb kit from before 1988 or so ethanol isn't an issue. If you have "rubber" fuel lines and such that are 30+ years old you really need to replace them anyway. This can be an issue for some of the older carbs that newer replacement parts aren't made for, but that's about it. I use "rubber" in quotes because very little is made from natural rubber any more. Lines and such are mostly neoprene or some other synthetic rubber-like material.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/21/2017 at 9:29am
they first started using ethanol in fuels around here in the late 80's and early 90's..the first thing i noticed is a drop in fuel economy....everyone was griping about their gas mileage dropping


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/21/2017 at 10:02am
Ethanol doesn't have as much energy (BTUs) as gasoline, so yes, you drop 1-2 mpg, and a little power as well. That's two reasons not to run more than a 10% mix in vehicles designed for regular gasoline. You can make up for the losses with more compression, but you have to have an engine designed specifically for it. The flex fuel vehicles have a bit more compression, but the computer has a wider range of adjustment than most regular gasoline engines so it can tune for the fuel mix used -- which might be part E10 and part E85. They still drop a lot of mileage as they can't have the compression an engine that would run exclusively on E85 could have -- then they wouldn't be able to run E10.

Ethanol works well in Brazil because it's easiest to extract from things sugar cane, harder to extract from corn. It also doesn't work well in cold climates -- a lot warmer in Brazil than in the northern parts of the US!!


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Dec/21/2017 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by auag85201 auag85201 wrote:

tom...i was an auto mechanic for 25 years..and in that period of time i brought many cars that were sitting for years back to life and never experienced what you are talking about..the truck i'm driving now sat for two years...i drive it every day with no rod knocksWink 

my apologies, didn't mean to tell you things know. the head-bolt-torque issue is unique to that engine. likely all will work out just fine.



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/21/2017 at 10:23pm
no problem tom...i came on this forum because i never worked on a rambler before..i knew there would be things unique to these engines and i knew this would be the place to learn ...with the help of you guys i'll have the old turd back on the road again soon....i think i have a radiator located locally so it wont be long now....i cant stand to see anything go to the crusher or get parted out so i have to rescue them....the wife says i'm a glutton for punishment  


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/29/2017 at 8:07pm
the old 64 brought back to life today after sitting 20 years......i had a little trouble getting the points to fire but they finally did and it started right up and purred...something up front was making a little noise..i noticed some oilers at the front and back of the generator..i oiled both and it shut right up...i hopped in at pushed in the clutch and ran through the gears...al went good untill i put it in first and started to let out the clutch...it started to move but wouldnt go...i could hear the transmission turning but no go...i'm guessing the overdrive is the problem...the control cable is stuck so i cant shift in or out of overdrive....i'm not exactly sure how the overdrive works  but there is a control cable under the dash and a push button switch on the carb linkage


Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Dec/29/2017 at 8:30pm
Congratulations on getting it running.  The overdrive is activated by pushing the handle on the cable (under the dash) forward as far as it will go.  Then you shift normally and in third gear above about 28 mph, you briefly let up on the accelerator and the overdrive engages.  It disengages with no further action on your part when you slow below the high 20's in mph.  To lock out the overdrive, you pull the handle out as far as it will go. Until you have read the manual, it is best to neither engage or disengage the overdrive when the car is moving. 

 The cable is a bowdoin cable like a throttle cable on your lawn mower.   You will need to try lubricating it with you favorite spray lube.  If you are ready to drive the car, and want to test the overdrive with the cable still frozen, get under the car and disconnect the cable at the transmission and make sure the switch is positioned to the rear.  The push button on the throttle linkage is intended to disengage the overdrive at full throttle for passing.  I glove box manual describes how to use the overdrive.  The TSM describes how to diagnose problems.  Joe


-------------
Happiness is making something out of nothing.


Posted By: tyrodtom
Date Posted: Dec/29/2017 at 8:58pm
If the cable is pushed all the way forward,  overdrive is engaged.   

If the cable is pulled out,  OD is disengaged.

But the car should move forward from a standstill no matter if the cable is in or out.
  
The systems designed so that if any electrical connection goes bad you just don't have overdrive,  but if the hold-in solenoid fails and jambs in the engaged position then you can get a situation like you describe.
  If you don't have the TSM for your car,  there are several websites devoted to the BW overdrive and it's troubleshooting.  

  Why does this website suddenly go to small print ???. .


-------------
66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va.


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/29/2017 at 9:19pm
the cable is connected to a lever on the transmission...i disconnected the cable from the lever and pushed the lever toward the front of the car...did i move it the wrong way?...i dont have the manual and cant find the websites you mentioned...the push button switch is froze...i unhooked the main power wire from the starter and just ran a hotwire from the battery to the coil and using a remote starter to start it.....i didnt know what condition the wiring was in so i thought i'd bypass it untill i got the motor running


Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Dec/29/2017 at 9:51pm
With switch in the forward position (simulating the cable pulled out) the overdrive is disengaged.  You should be able to drive the car. Joe

-------------
Happiness is making something out of nothing.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/30/2017 at 8:49am
As Joe says, with the lever forward the OD should be locked out. The car should drive like a normal three speed car, with higher revving of the engine due to the lower geared rear axle, but not an issue around town.

Unless something is bad wrong inside the OD unit the car should move in gear with the clutch out and engine running. When the planetary gears jam (a common problem is a planetary shaft breaking, jamming the gears in place) the OD unit just locks together -- no OD, but will still operate as if you have the cable pulled out. There is a free-wheeling clutch in the rear designed to prevent over revving the engine when you go down hill (also prevents engine braking in OD, and push starting the car). I don't think it can fail in such a way as to prevent the car from moving. Could be a rear axle problem as well.

Does the car make any noise when you release the clutch? One thing to do is have someone look at the center of the rear wheels, usually the passenger side rear wheel, and see if it is turning inside the hub (take hub caps off). The hub can spin on an axle, and if it's slipping real bad can prevent the car from moving, as with a standard differential all power goes to the spinning wheel... or axle in this case. They can also look under the car and see if the driveshaft is turning. That would indicate a spun hub (if it's turning also) or something broke inside the rear axle.

If the hubs are good and the driveshaft isn't turning, it must be an OD problem. Or a clutch problem. I'm assuming the car won't roll when the clutch is out? If it will roll when the clutch is in not a clutch issue. If it won't roll with the clutch in or out you could have frozen brakes. Frozen rear brakes will keep it from moving, but would stall the engine.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: tyrodtom
Date Posted: Dec/30/2017 at 1:36pm
Frank, how can you overrev the engine in overdrive ?  
 The engine is turning 33% less RPM in overdrive than direct drive, You'd have to be going down a mighty steep hill in 2nd overdrive to even have the possibility of over revving any engine.

And every OD car I had, (3),  only freewheeled when the overdrive was engaged, ( knob forward ) and I was below the engagement speed of around 25-30 mph.   Above that engagement speed there was no free wheeling when going down hills .

  The only time mine freewheeled above engagement speed was when I had a short in the electrical system, and it blew the fuse to the OD .   I drove that car for 18 years,  that's the only problem I ever had with the overdrive.  The other 2 cars were trouble free.

  Google BW R-10 overdrive,  it has several websites devoted to the Borg Warner overdrive, complete with how to use it, maintain it, and trouble shoot it.


-------------
66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va.


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/30/2017 at 2:00pm
on the passenger side there is a access hole in the transmission hump of the floorboard....according to what i see online it is the govenor...on the driver side is the solenoid....i have bypassed the electrical system on the car by disconnecting the main power wire off the starter....maybe thats the problem...i'm going to reconnect the power wire and find out is there are any problems with the wiring,,,hopefully nothing fries...lol


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/30/2017 at 8:19pm
from what i can find online the electrical system for the overdrive consists of ..kickdown switch ...relay...governor and solenoid..i havent been able to locate the relay...i read online they were on the firewall ...did rambler put them inside the car under dash maybe?


Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Dec/30/2017 at 8:25pm
The overdrive relay on a Rambler Classic at least is on one of the fender aprons under the hood.  It has an exposed glass fuse on it.  Joe

-------------
Happiness is making something out of nothing.


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/30/2017 at 8:27pm
joe...thats what i was seeing online but cant find one on mine


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/30/2017 at 8:34pm
does anyone have wiring diagrams for the overdrive  on rambler?


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Dec/31/2017 at 11:40pm
i got the old beast moving....everything i read online said the lever on the overdrive needed to be in the forward position to take it out of overdrive..i did that and it wouldnt move..just freewheel....so i moved it to the rear and its fine..i still need to figure out the electrical part of the overdrive....the switch on the accelerator was stuck so i took it apart ..cleaned and lubed the contacts and its working but someone in the past has liberated the relay for the overdrive..cut some wires too..has anyone ever wired a modern relay in?


Posted By: MARTINSR
Date Posted: Jan/01/2018 at 1:37am
Originally posted by auag85201 auag85201 wrote:

thanks for the replies...i just got the car..it has been sitting for years..i dont want to dump any money into it until i can get it running and make sure the motor is in good shape...i just need to scrounge up a cheap radiator to stick in it and get it running...its an arizona car so its pretty much rust free..looks like it has been painted once and its ready for paint again...lol

You have done the first proper step, you have "moved into the community" and came here. This car will seem as strange as a spaceship for a while, but as long as you have moved into the community it will soon become as clear to you as a P&J sandwich. The car is very basic, it's so crazy simple it's nuts.

I bought a 59 American in 2009 without an engine in it with a parts car. It's a flathead, with the a three speed on the column. I knew NOTHING absolutely NOTHING about these cars. I didn't know what years were similar, I didn't know a thing about it.  I moved into the community, bought manuals for it, and it very quickly became an old friend. 

I found parts on ebay and supply places like Galvin's AMC parts. http://www.ramblerparts.com/

I have been driving my Rambler every single day, EVERY-SINGLE-DAY for the past 6 years. It's parked out on the street in front of my house, it's my daily driver. To show you how easy it is once you move into the community, the clutch linkage fell apart one day on the way home from work. On the way home in the tow truck I called Galvin's because I had saved the number to my phone and had the part coming to my home before I even got home with the car on the tow truck! 

It's easier than you can imagine once you move into the community. Welcome, these cars are so cool, they put smiles on peoples faces, I enjoy driving "Marge" so much.

Brian


-------------
1959 Rambler American daily driver. And I mean EVERY SINGLE day.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/02/2018 at 10:24am
You can technically run the OD without any of the old relays and such, but do so with caution!
There was no OD relay used in the 64 American, though earlier models did use one. The 64 used a two wire governor, which replaced the relay function. All you have is the kick-down switch, governor, and solenoid. The kick-down switch should mount on a bracket on the intake manifold with a "paddle" lever on the throttle linkage activating it. Should be a four terminal switch with a "ratchet" action -- it will click when pushed in and connect the "bottom" two terminals (bottom being opposite of push button) then immediately "pop" back out, reconnecting the top terminals. It will reset when the throttle is closed and push button comes all the way back up. If this doesn't work as described you need a new one -- or can duplicate the action with a couple Bosch relays and a momentary switch. The $46.95 repro switch is the easiest way to go, and takes less room/wiring.

For starters, to get the OD operating without any of the wiring....

1. Run a wire from the battery to a toggle switch under the dash, then to the OD solenoid. You want to connect to the "4" terminal on the solenoid. I'd run a 20A in-line fuse between battery and switch.... might need a 30A, but I'd try a 20 first. If you need more than 30 the solenoid is bad. 

Original wiring would have an orange wire with white tracer on the "4" terminal. The other terminal (marked "6") would have a blue wire with tracer running to the kick-down switch then to the coil. This is just a ground connection. The "4" terminal originally connected to the governor, which connected it to the kick-down switch, from the switch toe +12V. I'm going off a factory TSM wiring diagram.

2. Flip the switch on and the solenoid will activate, flip it off and it will deactivate. Pretty simple... but not quite!  You can effectively put it in OD in any gear like this. Simply let off the gas, flip the switch, and go. To drop OUT of OD you MUST use the clutch!! The solenoid will drop out if you just let off the gas, but this puts a strain on the planetary gear shafts, which are small. So to drop out of OD push the clutch in THEN flip the switch off, then let clutch out. If you don't use the clutch everything will be fine for a while, but the OD unit will eventually break.

I did this way back when I was around 18 to my first OD car. OD lasted for about a month, then it just went "BOOM" under the floor one day. One of the planetary shafts gave out right after I shifted into OD. It's a bit scary when it happens unexpectedly, but nothing comes apart. A planetray shaft breaks and the gear jams inside the big drum gear. It acts like the OD is locked out, because everything is jammed together. At least you aren't stranded, but the OD unit has to be rebuilt.

There is no point in using OD in anything but third gear. I "split shifted" a few times, but the ratio of 2+OD is so close to 3rd (and 1+OD so close to 2nd) that there is really no point. The Twin-Stick transmission had a wide ratio between 2nd and 3rd so it could be split-shifted (OD used with 2nd) between 2nd and 3rd gears, giving five forward ratios.

You can get replacement electric parts from here:
http://www.vintageautogarage.com/Parts-Borg-Warner-Over-Drive-Parts-s/2818.htm?gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ152b-dc7cMWnQjqe2eB08YJRTejqiFrBNSGXmGQrXZFfTgMBKZ5Rz9RoC9TMQAvD_BwE" rel="nofollow - http://www.vintageautogarage.com/Parts-Borg-Warner-Over-Drive-Parts-s/2818.htm?gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ152b-dc7cMWnQjqe2eB08YJRTejqiFrBNSGXmGQrXZFfTgMBKZ5Rz9RoC9TMQAvD_BwE

Wiring diagram is in the TSM, but also here:
http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Rambler/MWire5765-371.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Rambler/MWire5765-371.jpg

All the OD wiring is in the lower right corner.



-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 12:10am
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

d, 
You can get replacement electric parts from here:
http://www.vintageautogarage.com/Parts-Borg-Warner-Over-Drive-Parts-s/2818.htm?gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ152b-dc7cMWnQjqe2eB08YJRTejqiFrBNSGXmGQrXZFfTgMBKZ5Rz9RoC9TMQAvD_BwE" rel="nofollow - http://www.vintageautogarage.com/Parts-Borg-Warner-Over-Drive-Parts-s/2818.htm?gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ152b-dc7cMWnQjqe2eB08YJRTejqiFrBNSGXmGQrXZFfTgMBKZ5Rz9RoC9TMQAvD_BwE


WOW those solenoids and relays are expensive!!! is that common? 

i guess i won't be scrapping my small pile of them. funny, as i've been wanting to move my T96 stuff but no one ever wants to come get or pay for even just shipping. i should though consider cleaning up the solenoids and relays (all used, but working). i gave a whole box of R10 stuff to John Elle, he's the only one who showed any interest.



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 6:18am
The expensive ones are new -- can't be much call for something like that any more! I didn't look for other sources, so there may be a less expensive option -- other than having a solenoid rebuilt. I had one solenoid that would work flawlessly on the bench, but wasn't strong enough to push the plunger in when installed. That was irritating!

Here's something to remember, and help with terminal ID. At least the seal is only $10:

"Solenoid wiring terminals with the solenoid in hand and the shaft facing out in front of you, the right hand terminal is number four and connects to the relay. The left hand terminal connects to the kick down switch. A small amount of solenoids had a third wire that was a ground if yours is one of those check your shop manual and it will confirm where the third wire goes. Most solenoids had screw in terminals, a few had internal connections with wires coming out of the solenoid. Wiring connections for both are the same.

When changing the solenoid we recommend always changing the seal in the transmission. This will prevent oil from entering into your new solenoid.
There is a seal in the solenoid itself that can;t be changed in the field. The seal that you can change is in the transmission where the shaft goes through. "



-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: jhowes
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 9:31am
You have a nice car,  congratulations.  When starting an engine that has sat for a long time, I follow the following procedure.
1.  Drain the oil and run your finger or some other thing liker a swab up into the drain hole to determine if there is any sludge in the bottom of the pan.  If there is it may mean you have to drop the pan and clean things out.  Not everyone in the past used detergent oil and the non detergent stuff will cause sludge that the filter, If seldom changed, will not have removed. 
2.  Drain and change all other fluids.
3.  Plug the lower engine water return hole and fill the block with :Evapo Rust" which can be bought in concentrated form at the local Farm Store under the name "Rust 911".  Save it when you drain it after a day or so, it is reusable.  You can l;eave it in the block for weeks,  no harm done and it cleans things out for good cooling.  
4.  I recommend new hoses and a good look at  the electrical components.  Test the generator (or alternator), Starter, Points, Plugs, etc.  Might as well start with the wear items in good shape.

I defer to the previous post about gaskets etc.  They know much more than I do.  My comments are general for any engine.  Jack


Posted By: MARTINSR
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

The expensive ones are new -- can't be much call for something like that any more! I didn't look for other sources, so there may be a less expensive option -- other than having a solenoid rebuilt. I had one solenoid that would work flawlessly on the bench, but wasn't strong enough to push the plunger in when installed. That was irritating!

Here's something to remember, and help with terminal ID. At least the seal is only $10:

"Solenoid wiring terminals with the solenoid in hand and the shaft facing out in front of you, the right hand terminal is number four and connects to the relay. The left hand terminal connects to the kick down switch. A small amount of solenoids had a third wire that was a ground if yours is one of those check your shop manual and it will confirm where the third wire goes. Most solenoids had screw in terminals, a few had internal connections with wires coming out of the solenoid. Wiring connections for both are the same.

When changing the solenoid we recommend always changing the seal in the transmission. This will prevent oil from entering into your new solenoid.
There is a seal in the solenoid itself that can;t be changed in the field. The seal that you can change is in the transmission where the shaft goes through. "


A few parts surprise me how expensive they are, most are super cheap, and the stuff lasts forever so you only buy it once.

Brian


-------------
1959 Rambler American daily driver. And I mean EVERY SINGLE day.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 9:21am
One more thing -- your car never had an OD relay!! Governor, solenoid, kick-down switch is all it had. The governor is the two wire type and pretty much takes the place of the relay. Rambler OD installations with a single wire governor have a relay (64 big cars do). The single wire governor grounds through the trans case. You can replace a single wire with a two wire easily -- just run one of the terminals to ground (doesn't matter which, it's a simple switch). To use a one wire in a two wire system, you'd have to isolate the grounded side of the switch and run another wire. The two wire are the most common, luckily. The switch is contained on the cover, so you could convert a one wire to two, but would be a bit of work.

The only part hard to replace is that "ratcheting" kick-down switch. It could be worked out with a couple 5 terminal Bosch relays and a momentary switch (or two), but I haven't done it. On those the relay contacts are closed when off in one position, open in the other. Hmmm... when switch is closed relay needs to cut power to coil, but as soon as power is cut relay needs to be turned off. So the NC set of points is connected to coil, when switch is pressed the contacts open, killing coil. The NO set of a second relay could be connected to the power line of the first relay, killing the circuit as soon as the contacts close. Well, that won't work! It will, but not if the momentary switch is being held open! Then it would be a continuous loop... Not so easy!!

My first thought is to put a timer in the circuit to stop the loop, but how long? You may want to hold the accelerator down for up to a minute when passing, but maybe you're pulling a load up a long hill and it takes longer... That wouldn't be a big issue, circuit would just repeat after one minute and give a slight hesitation and reset. But what if you floor it to accelerate, takes only 20-30 seconds, then something happens in the next 10-15 seconds (under a minute) and you need to accelerate again? Car would bog still in OD.... That second scenario isn't likely to happen, but if it did it could be dangerous.

Just preliminary thoughts... someone more versed with electronics (hint Tom!!) could probably work it out easy enough. The relay on/off sequence might even be too fast, the "ratchet" switch is quick but may be noticeably slower than the relay action...  needs about 0.2 seconds of motor off to kick down (just a guess...)...

Why bother? The relays are now cheap -- $10.95 for a set of six with sockets on Amazon. Might have a little business for you Tom! $2 for relays, $1 momentary switch, maybe a $1 strip of sheet metal for a switch mount (I've used metal plumbers tape for that... switch doesn't take much pressure to push, won't hurt if mount has some springiness). But what else is needed to make it work like the factory switch, and would there be much interest? 


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 10:59pm
frank.....i looked on wiring diagrams and couldnt find a relay so i came to the same conclusion......i took the kickdown switch apart and cleaned and lubed it so it works now...as long as the governor and solenoid are ok the overdrive should work...i did a complete brake job...shoes...rubber lines...wheel cylinders and master cylinder (everything for about 100 bucks at rock auto)...i decided to pull the tank and have it boiled ..(i have a friend that owns a radiator shop so he can handle it for me)..i'm chipping away at the beast and making good progress...i also scored some ralley wheels from a ford ranger ..(they look like late 60's chevy ralley wheels)...as soon as i get the gas tank back i'll be ready for a test run


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/15/2018 at 7:24am
First things to check if it doesn't work are the points in the governor and the solenoid. Cover easily comes off each. Just lightly file/sandpaper the points to clean. As long as the fuse is good and the solenoid is strong enough you should be good to go!

Hang a half gallon milk jug or something that holds at least a quart of gas under the hood and run a hose from the fuel pump into it. Can't go far, but can drive it around the block a few times!!  Shouldn't have a problem hanging something on the right side, away from the exhaust manifold.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Jan/15/2018 at 8:17pm
frank...where would the fuse be located?


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/16/2018 at 6:31am
On the fuse panel of a 64. Feeds off the ACC fuse, which is in the corner above the blower fuse. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Jan/16/2018 at 1:50pm
thanks frank....i had a plastic fuel tank from a tractor ..ii bungeed it in the back and later when the traffic clears up i'm going to take it around the block....the reason why the car wouldn't move when i let the clutch out is because the o/d cable was stuck..and it was stuck halfway between in and out...i replaced the cable and it works now...i do have a silly question...i read that if you try to take off in first or reverse while in overdrive very bad things will happen......is that only when the electric solenoid is engaged or even when the cable is pushed in?...what i mean is can i use reverse only when the cable is pulled ?....i just dont want to shred something due to my ignoranceWink


Posted By: tyrodtom
Date Posted: Jan/16/2018 at 4:33pm

You've just enabled the car to go into overdrive by pushing the lever forward,  but it doesn't go into overdrive until it gets above the engagement speed of 25-30 mph.

You can start out in first,  or engage reverse with the lever forward,  because it isn't actually in overdrive until you're above that engagement speed.

The owner's manual does advise if you park it with the lever forward, that you put the shifter in reverse.


-------------
66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va.


Posted By: auag85201
Date Posted: Jan/16/2018 at 9:46pm
i took the old sled out on her maiden voyage today...i did notice the clutch slipping..the clutch pedal is very tight with no free play..i'm going to give it some free play tomorrow and see if it helps...but more than likely it will need a clutch...rock auto doesn't list them and neither does orielys....i found a couple places but they are pretty high priced....i'm guessing the spline count is the same as ford...has anyone tried to use a ford clutch on their rambler?


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/17/2018 at 6:49am
As tyrodtom says, if you're using the factory electrics you can't engage OD until over 25-30 mph -- assuming the governor is working. It can stick "off", but not likely in the "on" position -- it is centrifugal and moves "up" when spun fast enough to engage OD. Springs hold it "in", so even if in a "down" position on the trans (I seem to recall it is) it's not likely to stick "on".   If you're straight wiring it then you don't want to engage OD unless moving forward. Won't hurt to engage it in first, but it shouldn't engage in reverse. When you put the trans in reverse there is an internal OD lock-out. Even if you're backing up and flip the switch it shouldn't engage OD... but to be safe I wouldn't try it! The only danger I can see of engaging in first is there might be a hard pull on the car. I did it a few times when I was running a straight wired OD (over 30 years ago as a teen!), and no harm from split-shifting first. No good either, so I only did it a few times to see what happened... no discernible difference between 1+OD and 2nd, very little between 2+OD and 3rd. In reverse it's a different story! The freewheel clutch could be damaged -- I think it could jam in the housing, would have to look at it again to see. You can use reverse without moving the OD cable due to the internal lock-out.


-------------
Frank Swygert



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net