Print Page | Close Window

REBEL/M-XRV8

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Lounge Area
Forum Name: Member Projects
Forum Description: Are you doing a restoration or in the middle of a major AMC project? Show and tell us about it (*AMC projects* only Please. Others may be moved)
URL: http://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=90028
Printed Date: Apr/07/2020 at 2:45pm


Topic: REBEL/M-XRV8
Posted By: amcenthusiast
Subject: REBEL/M-XRV8
Date Posted: Sep/28/2017 at 7:11pm
Always wanted to build a mid-engined Matador fastback to convey it's AMX/3 heritage but ever since they passed the no emission control device tampering law for any car '74-up I've been choosing older AMC cars to keep my hobby more acceptable in that regard.

So when I found this '69 Rebel coupe, I knew what I wanted to do next: REBEL/M-XRV8

Starting out with a junk car so no full pics of the body until it begins to look better.

First priority is to make it run and drive.

Here's a few pics of the work in progress:



The '65 solid main 327 XRV8 engine is set back 30", as far forward in the cabin as possible.



The 'X' shape removable plate engine mount construction provides resistance against spherical forces of inertia for crash safety, directs road wheel load more directly to center of gravity, allows removal of engine from underneath and provides space for fabricating a custom 180 degree header system.




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com



Replies:
Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: Sep/28/2017 at 7:18pm
Very interesting!

-------------
71 Javelin AMX P-code Go pac 360/4spd/3.91's
was Green/green now T/A red w/blk leather

88,89&98 Jeeps


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Sep/28/2017 at 8:06pm
Piques my interest as well, sparking fresh new things to study.

I've almost got all the basic components installed to make it run, as an engine stand at least.

Two more pics:



Took me two weeks just to make the custom driveshaft (during Hurricane Harvey -we got wind and  rain here) It's made using a Rambler Marlin/Classic 'cardan joint' cut in half with 1/8" wall 3" tube spliced in between.



With such a short driveshaft, to get acceptable driveshaft alignment, the rear axle must be raised.

This dictates the car's ride height must be 'slammed'; very low to the ground.

The engine and trans are mounted high enough so they won't scrape the ground if the car drags it's belly over a railroad track crossing.



-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: Sep/28/2017 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by amcenthusiast amcenthusiast wrote:



With such a short driveshaft, to get acceptable driveshaft alignment, the rear axle must be raised.

This dictates the car's ride height must be 'slammed'; very low to the ground.

The engine and trans are mounted high enough so they won't scrape the ground if the car drags it's belly over a railroad track crossing.


I like the idea of it hugging the ground,
but short wheelbase Jeep guys deal with the large output to axle elevation difference by using a double cardan joint at the transmission end,
that way the rear joint angle doesn't have to match the front joint angle,
and the axle can be more or less pointed up at the back of the double cardan.

All that said, I'd probably like to see the build low to the ground anyway Clap


-------------
71 Javelin AMX P-code Go pac 360/4spd/3.91's
was Green/green now T/A red w/blk leather

88,89&98 Jeeps


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Sep/28/2017 at 8:59pm
Thank you for you thoughtful suggestion.

Doing my best to keep it all AMC, I chose to mount a (new) 15 gallon Jeep CJ gas tank 'Mustang style' in the trunk. (part of that idea is to use an AM Jeep CJ instrument cluster, for parts compatibility)

The tank is customized with re-arranged fittings for longitudinal placement, which allows plenty of room on either side for rear exit exhaust pipes (wide stock Rebel tank forces pipes outside the rear frame rails)

The tank has a custom sump/drag race style rear exit fuel line port underneath to feed nearby 72 gph 5psi. electric fuel pump that will draw it's 12 volts from trunk mounted battery above.

The driver and passenger seats will be only slightly forward of where the back seat used to be (which oddly enough may even improve getting in and out of the car)...

I just finished re-doing a spare stock brass Matador radiator & plan to mount it 'Pantera style' up front. (using thin gauge steel tubes to go the distance between the engine and the radiator)

I plan to duct electric fan driven radiator heat 'Pantera style' up through reverse scoops in the hood... -confirmed by noticing hood design of '66 AMX II showcar (the '67 Rebel's prototype)



-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Sep/28/2017 at 9:29pm
Sorry guess I did not say it right & I need to show a better pic of the driveshaft... as I understand it, by my studies, nothing should be lined up perfectly straight to avoid undesirable forms of gyroscopic effect which could make the car very unsafe... everything is slightly offset to the passenger side & the driveshaft is almost straight but has a slight angled downward slope to the pinion yoke (with a u-joint on each end)

I think the '67-'69 Rebel 2dr coupe body style looks great 'slammed' on the ground...


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: 73jav
Date Posted: Sep/29/2017 at 11:44am
Glad to be following along on another one of your projects. Keep the updates coming! 



Posted By: g-man
Date Posted: Sep/29/2017 at 1:05pm
David,

First of all I just love your work.
Question I have: Is this going to be like a streetable Rebel funny car?
Thanks in advance,

g-man


-------------
AMC only daily driver


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Sep/30/2017 at 5:45pm
Thank you both for your positive encouragements.

Mid-engined Grant Rebel SST Funny Car is most definitely on the inspiration list but no this car won't have a funny car body-on-frame style construction.



(thanks to whoever posted that pic on Internet)

Grant Rebel SST used AM's iron case automatic transmission. None of the historical articles on the car contain info. telling about transmission failure. Rather, we have at least one example of an AM WG iron case automatic that successfully withstood 1000 hp & 9000 rpm action in actual Funny Car competition!

I'll be using this '65 Marlin AM WG AS2 10B auto. trans. in this car:



Here's another quick pic of the driveshaft (stock Marlin/Classic cardan joint was cut in half, then 3" tube spliced in)



As your brother in the AM vintage car hobby, IMO, we need to concentrate more on 'new school' E10 compatible fuel system components to keep our vintage AMCs from falling behind into oblivion.

https://www.epa.gov/renewable-fuel-standard-program/overview-renewable-fuel-standard

Thank you AMC Forum and more AM power to you all with your own AMC projects.





-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Oct/13/2017 at 11:40pm
Still saving up money and acquiring parts...
              
 ...I was looking for high lift springs, but look at what I just found on eBay!

                      HIGH PERFORMANCE VALVE SPRING RETAINERS FOR RAMBLER V8!


*I'm not recommending anyone should use these: they're aluminum... and that's why they're still in an unopened package!

(aluminum valve spring retainers were a short lived fad in the early seventies; IMO since aluminum expansion rate is greater than the valve springs, they're sure to chafe and put tiny metal flakes in the engine oil etc)

-just posted the pic for grins... rare sight to to see vintage hop up parts for Rambler V8


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Mar/19/2018 at 7:24am
We now have a driveable mid-engined '65 Rambler V8 powered '69 AMC Rebel.

Edited out these pictures today on 2-16-2020 not to make the mid-engined AMX/3 pictures on Google image gallery look bad.




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: g-man
Date Posted: Mar/19/2018 at 12:08pm
Holy Schnikes!!! 
That is quite a sight to see!
That will be the first AMC (that I know of) that you could manually adjust the timing while you drive the car...
I am looking forward to this getting finished.

g-man

PS Are you going to put anything under the hood?


-------------
AMC only daily driver


Posted By: amxmachine
Date Posted: Mar/19/2018 at 12:21pm
Thats so cool keep up the good workThumbs Up


Posted By: Rebel Machine
Date Posted: Mar/19/2018 at 6:50pm
Crazy man, crazy!

-Steve-


Posted By: Ruby loye
Date Posted: Mar/19/2018 at 9:26pm
Ok, you got me. I am an old school stock from the factory Rambler guy, but a car you can check the oil while changing your tunes awesome! I did’nt think I would like the slammed look, I don’t. I love ❤️ it!!! Rambler on my friend!

Mark


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Mar/19/2018 at 10:45pm
Fun comments; thanks.

-the initial plan was to fabricate simple ducting to vent radiator heat up & out through the front portion of the hood but so far there are no noticeable cooling issues.

...crazy, yes... and when I woke up this morning and looked out the window there was a man trying to take pictures of it!

I think these Rebels lend themselves to a lowered look because their flat sided body style? -but also the very short driveshaft, not having as much articulation, has much to do with determining the ride

-problem with having the car this low; with the slightest amount of wheelspin, it'll dig a hole in the gravel driveway then drag the frame ...so this afternoon after work I put cut down coils on the back and now it sits level... 


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Apr/20/2018 at 8:37pm
'69 AMC Rebel Ambassador front upper control arm bushings:

TRW pn#12291A :


FCRC Machine aka 'Rare Parts' pn#15102

http://fcrcmachine.com/rare-parts-front-upper-control-arm-bushings-1969-amc-ambassador-rebel-15102/




...found the vintage TRW pair on eBay and bought them for a sample.

The FCRC Rare Parts version is an excellent reproduction, matching the superior quality of the good ol' vintage TRW bushings.

I also purchased a set of (4) front upper control arm bushings (for only about $14 -low cost/low risk) for '69 Dodge Coronet because they look almost identical to these bushings made for our '69 AMC full size cars... they use the same size mounting bolts but are slightly smaller in width and diameter. I was able to cut the shells on my pre-existing '69 Rebel bushings and press in the Mopar bushings -if only to prove to myself it could be doable... since the Coronet bushings are also slightly less wide, they would need washers to make up for the difference in width also...

I installed the Rare Parts bushings at last, not wanting to mess with it anymore in the near future.


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Apr/25/2018 at 8:23am
So it was next to impossible to slide a floor jack under the car with it sitting on the bumpstops... which basically made it unservicable... and I can't have it like that!

But the main point of lowering the suspension is to accommodate the short driveshaft from the three foot engine setback -to get the driveshaft and pinion angles 'correct'.

The stock rear suspension extension, with stock Rebel shock absorbers had too much travel and the driveshaft u-joints would bind.

So I not only needed shorter coil springs to get the driveshaft angle right, I needed a way to limit rear axle extension also. I mulled over the idea of extending the lower shock mounts but decided to this instead:

Since the suspension needs to be 'lowered' & I'm using cut coils with stock spring rates (it-is-what-it-is) I'd like it to have increased dampening to reduce potential for 'bottoming out'.

Hence, I'm using Ford F150 pickup truck shock absorbers which have a similar 'bayonet' upper and 'eyelet' style lower mounts* -to fit the stock type Rebel mounts. (*the F150 lower shock eyelets are a metric size and slightly smaller in diameter, so I had to press them out, then press the Rebel shock sleeves in... not a simple bolt on task)

...to make all four corners have the same dampening, I'm using the same oversized shocks on all four corners. (these are huge 'truck shocks' which dwarf the the stock type Rebel shock absorbers)

Here's a pic underneath the rear of the car, which also shows the Jeep CJ gas tank (keepin' it all AMC the best I can) 3/8 fuel line and 72 GPH @ 5 psi. electric fuel pump. -the new tank and fuel lines are specifically positioned and customized for this lowered chassis application -not to rub or drag on the ground when/if the car needs to negotiate a steep driveway or ramp etc. etc.

No paint work done on this car yet; only 'Ospho'/phosphoric acid type iron oxide neutralizer carefully brushed on everywhere/anywhere there was any visible rust formation.

Edited today 2-6-2020 to chop this picture out so AMX/3 pictures on Google image gallery are not marred by the appearance of my rough looking project car.



-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Apr/25/2018 at 8:36am
Instead of destroying the stock upper rear shock mounts, I cut off the cover tubes so the oversize shocks could poke up through the pre-existing upper shock mount areas. (how to say it right)

The new rear upper shock mounts are welded in to the stock upper shock mount unibody frame stamping so they keep the strength needed to the do their job.

Here's a pic looking inside the trunk, showing the fabricated upper mounts, custom gas tank, trunk mount battery & gutted trunklid (trunklid is now 15 lbs lighter... the car doesn't need a cow-resistant trunk lid anymore)

Edited today 2-6-2020 to remove this pic so mid-engined AMC picture gallery is not weighed down by my rough project car pictures.


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Apr/25/2018 at 8:40am
Here's a pic showing how the new oversize shocks fit up through the pre-existing shock mount holes:

Took out this pic for the same reason; so the mid-engined AMX/3 cars look better on Google image gallery.

(this Rebel looks much better now anyway, all painted and tidied up underneath)


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: LakesideRamblin
Date Posted: Apr/25/2018 at 9:45am
Absolutely ingenious. Love it!

-------------
LakesideRamblin
69 Rambler 220 360
73 Javelin 360
"If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month." T. Roosevelt


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Apr/25/2018 at 3:43pm
Thanks for the positive comment. Necessity is the mother of invention?

I really had no clear vision on how to do the rear shocks, but I've learned that sometimes, if you simply 'go at it', sometimes one come up with a good idea anyway.

But I did have a clear vision on how I wanted to do the front shocks... and once I could 'see it' in my mind -I knew ~that~ was what I wanted to do (go ahead and use the oversized Ford truck shocks on all four corners)

Here's a few pics of how the front suspension shares the same shocks as the rear, and how the shock extension limits the wheel travel to keep the cut down coils in position (as it is now, with the coils cut down, they are so much shorter it makes them much easier to remove or install... and I really like that because the suspension is become much easier to work on; just unbolt the shock, lower the wheel and the spring is ready to come out.

One more reason I chose to go with Ford pickup truck shocks is to keep the option of installing 'helper spring'/overload shocks if the stock rate springs do not live up to my higher performance expectations -this way, I can install Ford truck overload shocks to increase the spring rate... plausibly instead of having custom coils made at a spring shop.

So now I have comparatively giant shocks on all four corners, to limit suspension extension, which works to keep the shorter coils locked their spring seats & the rear suspension's maximum extension is limited to keep the shorty driveshaft u-joints from unacceptable binding.

-took out these pictures not to poison the AMX/3 image gallery on Google with rough pics of this car.

The shocks are Monroe 'Gas-Matic' pn# 59517 -for '92 Ford Pickup and Vans.

These Rebels came with extra large rubber bump stops on the front  (makes Dodge Coronet bump stops look dinky by comparison) but I went ahead and bought oversize Jeep TJ urethane bump stops for additional bottom out cushioning. (the 2" diameter urethane Jeep bump stops are cut  down from four to 2.5" tall and angle cut DIY by me)

I expect this to be a very sturdy front suspension with so much weight removed from the front of the vehicle. It hasn't been driven with these mods yet (can't wait though! -to see how it feels)

Completing the 'roughing in' on the suspension was necessary (in my mind anyway) prior to this next phase of the project: Let's build a AM Warner Gear automatic 'race' transmission? 

 


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 6:46am
The last three mid-sixties AM V8 automatics I've overhauled had paper frictions in one and bronze frictions in the other so I was curious to see what was in this example:

Purchased this unit from John's Auto Salvage in Seguin, Tx.

Here's a few pics of this auto trans teardown for inspection.

Front clutch:



...so, this one had 'paper' frictions in the front clutch...



-The friction material on these looks thin and pitted; I bet they would have wore out quickly and when that happens the trans fluid would show the typical 'metal flakes' in the oil.



-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 7:15am
Pics of the rear clutch:



The rear clutch in this trans had 'radial' groove bronze frictions:



Similar to the front clutch, here we can see some visual evidence of... what looks to me like the trans was run low on fluid -there is some galling where the bronze friction lining is transferred onto the steel drive plates. ('Galling' by definition basically means 'metal transfer' caused by lack of lubrication)



Wow; I've never seen this before. Not only did I find the bronze frictions in the rear clutch, one of the bronze frictions was severely dished. This indicates severe heat occurred in order to warp the friction disk.




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 7:51am
One definition of 'metal' is 'any substance listed in the Table of Elements that can be buffed to a mirror-like finish'.

Any metal object is not really 'finished' until it's been buffed, painted, plated, anodized, powder coated etc?

Here's a good article advocating the benefits of polishing:

http://www.epi-eng.com/mechanical_engineering_basics/fatigue_in_metals.htm

So while I'm waiting on parts, I like to begin detailing various components. Here's pics of the stock mid-sixties Rambler V8 auto trans bellhousing I'll be using on this car:







merely wire-wheel brushed, not polished yet...




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 8:07am
'65 AM Warner Gear 10B auto trans main case 'before':



Carefully detailed the interior of the case with an assortment of small carbide burrs, grinding stones and sanding drums, using a rotary tool with flex-shaft extension. After, below:




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 8:11am
I like to use a pressure washer for serious cleaning after I do any interior grinding work like this. -Any grinding is followed up with every form of cleaning I can muster; I use Dawn liquid soap & water and a wide variety of brushes; toothbrush, paint brushes, big bristle brushes, then compressed air dry etc. -where obsession for cleanliness is only a basic necessity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's an excellent article on rebuilding these transmissions here:

http://studebakerflightomatic.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://studebakerflightomatic.blogspot.com/

Two other good sources of information (for Ford-O-Matic & FMX) posted on Internet here:

http://www.forelpublishing.com/demo/Demo10169.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.forelpublishing.com/demo/Demo10169.pdf

https://www.forelpublishing.com/demo/Demo10174.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.forelpublishing.com/demo/Demo10174.pdf




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 6:32pm
A few pics of the tailhousing getting reworked for this application:











-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/02/2018 at 6:35pm
This trans was originally from a mid-sixties Torque Tube drivetrain car. Here's what mine looked like after removing the flange using a metal cutting blade on an angle grinder:



And now, fully removed and detailed:








-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/03/2018 at 7:52am
...waiting on parts and cleaning up the pan:








-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/03/2018 at 7:55am
And:



-bought the little 1/3 hp electric motor from a local scrapyard for $20 and the shaft adapter piece for about $8 off eBay (to run wire wheel, grinding wheel & buffing wheels on the electric motor) -nowadays, I use it so much I'm not sure how I ever got along without it...



After cleaning the pan with an assortment of wire wheels (using wire wheels on a drill also), then wet/oil sanding with 220 grit, then using two sisal buffing wheels mounted side by side with coarse rouge to bring out more shine...

-the idea here is to remove all the crud on the oil pan, to increase the ability of the pan to shed heat, for better cooling; to increase heat dissipation. Nevertheless, I'll paint the bare metal transmission oil pan with a coat of clear in order to prevent surface rust after buffing...




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/07/2018 at 5:51pm
Didn't go hog wild detailing the exterior of the main case (only a few hours there) -taking all the sharp edges off makes the case much nicer to handle while tackling the transmission job:



I'll paint this main case also, to prevent iron oxide formation...






-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/07/2018 at 6:40pm
Since the ancient torque converter went out on this unit (never had one do that before; began whining, louder and louder... then it'd bog the engine out when putting in it gear and then, when the one way clutch on the stator completely failed, the engine could not start due to it's higher 1000 rpm idle speed... one way clutch failure on the stator is confirmed by no resistance to turning either way)

...SO... I'm taking the opportunity to investigate the possibility of installing a high stall FMX torque converter.

And this is become a very interesting study IMO; comparing the Ford made FMX parts to AM's Warner Gear made parts.

First significant difference is the FMX stator/pump design and sizes are not the same:












-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: fast401
Date Posted: May/07/2018 at 7:50pm
This is a great project to follow. I can’t wait to see it completed!

-------------
Disturbing the peace since 1970!!!   AMX 19245
Facebook page - AMC Nation
www.fast-401.4t.com


Posted By: amcglass
Date Posted: May/07/2018 at 8:07pm
agree with FAST401    cant wait to see more and more



-------------
Javmanpres

BBG Mark Donohue 401

74 Jav/AMX
71 Matador 2dr sedan delivery wagon
1902 Rambler Runabout     


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/07/2018 at 9:20pm
Ah thank you for some encouragement; I was hoping this wasn't too boring... but I want to document the possibility of swapping a FMX high stall torque converter into a sixties style AM WG8-12 automatic.

Comparing Torco's FMX high stall torque converter to '65 AM Warner Gear 10B stock converter; pics side by side:





That old saying; 'the AMC unit with the two prongs is weaker than the Ford style unit' is a bunch of hooey! *all the two prongs do is turn the hydraulic pump: they have nothing to do with the power handling capacity of the unit! Rather, as I understand it, the Ford style 'two machined flats' type actually tries to wedge the pump drive gear apart... and there are 'wedge marks' worn into the mating surfaces that can be seen inside my used FMX pump gear.

The AMC WG 'two prong pump gear drive' style allows much easier installation of the TC into the pump gear/stator assembly when installing the trans underneath the car etc.

The Ford pump drive obviously took less time to make at the factory ~only cutting the two machined flat surfaces, compared to the AM WG pump drive engagement where it would take more time to cut away the metal in order to make the two prong type pump drive mechanism.





The FMX type torque converter pilot button is stamped, then the pilot button is cut to size.
The AM WG pilot button is welded onto the stamped steel converter housing: obviously took more time at the factory to finish making the completed part.



The quality of workmanship seen on the Torco converter looks as if they are rebuilt within the minimum time possible to make an acceptable working part.

The quality of workmanship, noticeable all over the stock Warner Gear torque converter is truly impressive IMO. Obvious precision welds... carefully placed, seemingly insignificant balancing weights, nice rounded shape appearing to create smooth flowing/reduced turbulence fluid flow through the unit (less fluid turbulence = less molecular friction = cooler, longer lasting fluid quality)

 

-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/07/2018 at 9:27pm
AM WG 10B ('65 Rambler V8) torque converter button diameter: 1.6235" (1.625" = 1 5/8")



Torco FMX torque converter button diameter: 1.3725" (1.375" = 1 3/8")




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/07/2018 at 9:35pm
Torco FMX torque converter pump hub diameter compared to '65 AM Warner Gear 10B torque converter pump hub diameter:

FMX:



AMWG:








-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/09/2018 at 8:34am
Now examining the differences between the WG and FMX pump and stator assemblies:



From a machinist's perspective, the Warner Gear made pump and stator assembly has at least twice as much machine work done, compared to the FMX unit.

Some of the machine work originally done on the WG unit appears to be unneccessary, as if they just took pride in doing the additional machine work... as skilled tradesmen tend to do?

IMO, doing half the machine work to make the FMX unit, teaches a lesson on how Ford is able to double their production numbers -half the machine work = they can make twice as many parts.



(above) On the Warner Gear stator support tube above we can barely see the cutting tip tooling marks; they obviously used a finer cutting tip on the lathe and took more time machining the part.

-notice the precision cut splines on the Warner Gear unit, compared to the rough cut splines on the FMX stator support...

(below) Larger tip cutting tool marks are easy to see, all over, on the exterior surfaces of the FMX stator support unit. -a larger cutting tool takes more metal off, to manufacture the same part faster.

A typical retail consumer/car buyer would never know the difference?



(below) Obviously much more machining work, with increased difficulty, involved to make the Warner Gear type pump gears on the left*, when compared to the FMX style pump gears on the right.

*As far as I know, all pre-'58 Ford-O-Matic & all '58-'66 Cruise-O-Matic Ford automatic transmissions use the more complex Warner Gear style pump and stator design... and when Ford changed the name to Cruiseomatic in '58, this was when they added a one way clutch to the planetary gear set in order to provide 1rst gear manually selected engine braking. (common name for the one way clutch is 'sprag', or 'sprag clutch')




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/09/2018 at 8:37am
And:












-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/09/2018 at 8:39am
And:










-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/09/2018 at 8:43am
Differences between the input shafts:



(below) Warner Gear precision cut input shaft on left, Ford FMX rough cut input shaft on right:



FMX unit has larger diameter thrust bearing. FMX unit fits perfectly* into the AM Warner Gear's front clutch drum; exact fit.

*Apparently Ford changed the FMX input shaft and front clutch tooth pattern in '72; to have 50% less 'notches' where the input shaft fits into the clutch drum = again; 1/2 the machine work to make the same part... (having half the notches in the clutch drum splines makes the '72-up FMX clutch drum look like a GM Turbohydramatic 350/400 style part... so... GM was practicing a similar manufacturing strategy to double production by doing less machine work IMO)

note: the larger diameter thrust bearing surface took less time on a lathe to make... = just stop cutting and 'call it 'done'' and put a larger bronze bearing there instead... 




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/09/2018 at 8:47am
The FMX sun gear shaft drive cog is obviously wider to allow one more friction and steel in the clutch:










-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/09/2018 at 8:59am
Pics of FMX sun gear drive cog compared to '65 AM WG 10B cog just for a reference:












-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/09/2018 at 9:05am
Here's a few pics of how the Torco high stall FMX torque converter fits, with FMX pump and stator assembly installed, into the stock '65 AM WG 10B RV8 bellhousing.

-fits good/does not rub on the bell underneath & appears to have proper space for the flexiplate:










-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/11/2018 at 8:42am
As you may have noticed, looking at the picture above in the previous post... the main problem with adapting the FMX torque converter to the AM WG 10B is the increased protrusion of the pilot button; the FMX button is too 'tall'. (You'd think, that with the RV8's extra long rear main bearing area on the crank, it'd be the other way around? -that the AM WG's pilot button would be longer than the FMX style torque converter? but it's not...)

*the taller FMX button is 1 3/8" diameter, the shorter AM WG button is 1 5/8" diameter

'Par for the course', I measured how deep the input shafts go into the torque converter and discovered there will be approximately 1/4" space ~after the FMX pilot button is cut down (the FMX and AM WG 10 input shafts are the same length/no difference in length)

So I considered the options for several days... all of them seeming more expensive in my imagination... until I thought of this: pack soft foam into the FMX pilot button cavity to prevent grinding grit from entering the housing (!) ...then grind it to an acceptable height, then make a new button on my lathe with larger 1 5/8" diameter RV8 size, then pull out the foam from the FMX cavity and weld the new custom pilot button on, then check/trim to fit the new custom welded button on my lathe for concentricity = task complete.

If I do not succeed, at least I was not easily defeated (!)

Pics:












-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/11/2018 at 8:45am
And:








-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/12/2018 at 7:08am
Fabricating the torque converter button:






-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/15/2018 at 9:01am
Cutting and fitting the AM Rambler V8 sized hub onto the FMX torque converter:





Using aluminum tape to protect the converter hub's bearing surface from the lathe head's hardened jaws:




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/15/2018 at 9:03am
And:








-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/27/2018 at 7:27am
Time consuming work to true up the torque converter's custom fabricated pilot button and cut it to the correct .003" to .005" clearance specification...

...working late into the night:




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/27/2018 at 7:43am
Trial fitting the FMX stator & modified torque converter with AMWG 10B case to the block:

 






-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: pit crew
Date Posted: May/27/2018 at 7:49am
Wow. I know there is a ton of working going on there and I don't want to minimize any of it but man, that bell housing looks like a work of art.

-------------

73 Hornet - 401EFI - THM400 - Twin Grip 20


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/27/2018 at 8:04am
Doing much research on the Internet during this trans rebuild I've learned that the AM Flashomatic units are most similar to Ford's '58-'66 Cruise-O-Matic 'small case'/cast iron case units. *Some Cruisomatics came with 5 friction clutch drums which should interchange but I've decided to keep the stock Flashomatic 4 friction clutch drums in this unit for now. The '58-'66 small iron case Cruisomatic pump and stator  assembly appears to be a direct interchange with AM Flashomatic units... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-O-Matic-3-Speed-Cruisomatic-BW-8-12-DG-3-Band-Front-Pump-Assembly-6551D-/272954267851 (I believe the advertisement is incorrect stating the unit fits the DG 3 band units... see seller's eBay store for many other hard to find parts for these vintage automatic transmissions)

Interesting trivia here: pics of '57 Ford Thunderbird auto trans tag and case casting:

(made and assembled for Ford by Borg Warner's Marvel-Shebler Division!)












-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/27/2018 at 8:15am
Installing vintage Lempco pn# 6240A B5AZ-7B164A high performance 'sunburst' bronze frictions, NOS Ford Cruiseomatic steels & FMX input shaft into the '65 AM WG 10B's front clutch:



Alternate 'sunburst' bronze frictions: pn# ATP 265
-sometimes found for sale for 'Ford-O-Matic' ('50-'58)
or "Cruise-O-Matic' 'small iron case' ('59-'66)



...installed new seals on the clutch piston -the old ones were 'hard as a rock' (more evidence the trans was overheated, plausibly from running it low on fluid, in a previous life)


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/29/2018 at 12:25am
Thanks PitCrew for the positive comment; I like to show off AMC's high quality die cast aluminum parts because AM's Kelvinator Division claimed to be an industrial leader in die casting technology.

Kelvinator Division & other AMC subsidiaries: http://southernclassic.tripod.com/id2.html

Proceeding on with trans build; rear clutch; showing this pic to encourage 'first timers' -basically all AMC automatic transmissions have this super strong coil spring in the rear clutch. One can't compress the spring by hand ~but~ if you don't have the specialized tool they show in the AMC TSMs, you can use 'c-clamps' and sockets to compress the spring... something like this:



Installed vintage Lempco bronze frictions with Alto FMX flat steels pn# A106139 in the rear clutch (AM WG 10B units are '4 and 4' = four frictions in front and four frictions in the rear clutch... AM WG 11 has four in front and five in the rear, AM WG 12 units are '5 and 5' -like a Ford FMX.

I decided not to pursue installing the FMX clutches because this Craigslist $500 car must run and drive or it's JUNK. = I don't have the time to piddle around with it. 



Since the stock AM Warner Gear 10B units have dished rear clutch steels, replacing the clutch pak with flat steels leaves too much clearance so I added one dished steel behind the all new flat clutch pak to make up the difference... satisfied by the looks of it, I didn't even measure the gap; that should be a 'tight' clutch IMO.


 

-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/29/2018 at 12:35am
And using the planetary unit for an assembly stand like they show in the AM TSMs:



and one thing leads to another...



hopefully more text here later


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/30/2018 at 7:16pm
Total rotating assembly weight in these AM Warner Gear automatics is a low number, which is otherwise partly measured as 'parasitic loss' due to 'moment of inertia' (Newton's Law)

Power loss for various auto transmissions:
These are approximate values provided by Car Craft Magazine.
Powerglide_____18 hp
TH-350________36 hp
TH-400________44 hp
Ford_C-6______55-60 hp
Ford_C-4______28 hp
Ford_FMX______25 hp
Chrysler_A904__25 hp
Chrysler_727___45 hp

(American Motors Warner Gear 'Flashomatic' and 'Shift Command' units are basically the same rating as Ford FMX)




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/30/2018 at 7:30pm
Tossing in some AM WG 10B control valve body pics here if only for a reference or comparison.

Doing much research on the Internet during this rebuild, I found no Ford-O-Matic or Cruisomatic units with the same valve body. FMX is not the same either. Therefore I could not find a shift kit these mid-sixties AM iron case Flashomatic units ~the valve body looks similar to a '59 Ford small iron case Cruisomatic but the actual valves and springs are obviously not the same.

I'll just 'soldier on' with a stock valve body on this one for the time being.





Sometimes if these units are mishandled and get dropped on the ground, the impact will crush this particular valve bore and prevent the trans from shifting gears correctly. Here's how I repaired my unit. -now the valve moves freely once again... a spring goes in that bore right there so the roughened area does not affect how the particular valve operates...

 


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/30/2018 at 7:36pm
Pics of '65 AMWG10B Flashomatic valve body:










-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/30/2018 at 7:39pm
If an attaching bolt gets stripped out, it's possible to make a stud with a nut on it like this:




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/30/2018 at 7:44pm
How I adjust the bands on my rebuilt units '1/4 turn tight':



My '67-'73 Rebel Matador Chilton's Manual says to use a 1/4" gauge block and tighten the adjusting bolt to 9 inch pounds ('67, or 10 inch pounds '68-'71)

IMO, this is one of those things where saying it and doing it are two different things.

What do I do? I put a 1/4" thick allen wrench in there for my 'gauge block' then I simply 'snug up' the adjusting stud 'finger tight' -until I can 'feel' the band grab onto the clutch drum (this is a spongy feeling when using a large screwdriver to tighten the adjusting stud) -snug the adjuster stud with the gauge block in there, make a mental note of where it is, then remove the gauge block and turn the adjuster stud one quarter of a turn 'tighter'...

From here:



...to there, in the pic below; one quarter turn tight. Very simple, and tighten the locknut right there.



It's not 'rocket science'. It doesn't make the band seem to drag on the clutch drum any more at all. The only difference is that the trans will feel slightly more firm when it shifts gears.




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/30/2018 at 7:45pm
Adjusting rear band:

This band also 'feels mushy' when one tightens down the band adjusting stud. I just use a little wrench to tighten the band until it feels 'snug' -just 'finger tight, with two fingers like this...

...then the Chilton's Manual says to back off the adjusting screw 1 and 1/4 turns. So I just back off one full turn instead (so it's set 1/4 turn tight) I cinch down the lock nut right there and call it 'done'.

In my experience, adjusting the bands this way, the bands never wear out. (mine never do) It only makes this transmission's shift points feel more firm.

(I've never found a worn out band inside one of these AM Warner Gear automatic transmissions, iron case or aluminum case; they seem to 'last forever')




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/31/2018 at 5:50am
After all the guts are installed into the main case, it's important to make sure the oil pan fits correctly on these older Flashomatic and Shift Command AM automatics.

The oil pan on these iron case units does more than hold fluid; on the mid sixties Flashomatics it hold the tubes in correctly and keeps the filter snuggled onto the valve body.

My pan was abused so I used 'rolled up bits' of masking tape to identify the clearance issues like this:



The stock pan has a dimple there. Mine was 'mashed in' so I re-dimpled it -had to; so the pan gasket will cinch down correctly.





-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/31/2018 at 5:58am
The mid sixties Flashomatics have a seemingly unimportant tab spot welded into the pan. These typically get bent when cleaning the pan.



Here's looking in through the trans fluid filler tube hole; I put a mini flashlight inside my unit and took a picture to show how the tab helps to hold one of the tubes into the control valve assembly correctly:



Re-bend the tab until you can 'feel it touch' there when you bolt on the pan...


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/31/2018 at 6:06am
Pics of XRV8 RP rebuilt unit:








-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/31/2018 at 6:16am
.003" min. to .005" max clearance specification for torque converter pilot button.
Install with lithium grease in the TC's pilot button hole:



FMX high stall torque converter with custom made pilot button bolted to '65 solid main 327 Rambler V8:




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: May/31/2018 at 6:26am
Another thing I really like about these AM Warner Gear units is that they can be installed like a manual transmission. -Just make sure to 'clock the oil pump' gear inside the stator to the pump drive on the TC. Pics of final install:






-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jun/16/2018 at 9:05am
Final install? = Yeah right; Dream on!

This has truly been a challenge to swap in the FMX high stall torque converter.

Apparently the Rambler V8 automatic bellhousing is about 1/8" shorter than a Ford FMX bell, so the pump drive engagement, the stator support tube and the input shaft all needed slight modifications.

Pump drive getting shortened 1/8":










-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jun/16/2018 at 9:19am
It was absolutely necessary to shorten the FMX's stator support tube 1/8":



The input shaft splines are also lengthened (rearward) 1/8" to work with the 1/8" shorter Rambler V8 bellhousing:




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jun/16/2018 at 6:36pm
I lost count of how many times this trans was removed, taken apart for various reasons and reinstalled to make it all happen & 'get it right'. Now we know what must be done to adapt a high stall FMX torque converter to a mid-sixties AM iron case Flashomatic transmission (whew; glad that's over with!)

The 1700-2100 high stall torque converter should work well with the higher idle speed of the independent runner induction system and this will help launch the heavier built Rebel by having the Rambler V8 a little more into it's peak torque range when stomping on the gas pedal from a dead stop.


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jul/15/2018 at 8:25am
-Been working on making the custom electrical system and fabricating the instrument cluster:



I chose to use a Jeep CJ 'all-in-one' speedo/cluster for it's compactness of design and aftermarket parts availability + it goes with the Jeep CJ 15 gallon gas tank
(car came with no gas tank -typical) & of course, these items 'keep it all AMC!'




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: scott
Date Posted: Jul/15/2018 at 8:43am
This build reminds me of my Dad's drag car from the late 50's early 60's. Henry J with a McCulloch supercharged 322 Buick set back as far as possible. Dad drove from the back seat.



Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jul/15/2018 at 8:46am
Hi Scott! Sorry this post is out of order; I was busy posting this while you already posted that...

...testing the car a little more, it was running hot, so I chose a 'Speed Daddy' (eBay) 2 row aluminum radiator with dual fan kit. The fans run nice and quiet. (more quiet than the electric fuel pump anyway)



One problem with the fans: they did not fit side by side without trimming the plastic frames. -Had to cut about 1/4" off each side (four cuts, very easy to do, does not damage structural integrity of the fan shrouds)



Pics of starter and '75 Gremlin alternator wired in 'all neat and tidy' for trouble free operation (using XRV8 RP 'low mount' alternator brackets of course):




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jul/15/2018 at 9:04am
Hey Scott! -yeah, there you go: Time warp! -trip back to the mid-sixties A/FX 'movement'...

Funny thing is, I've been thinking about you lately because I still need to explain my theories on Rambler V8 header design.

I made two shop drawings for comparing a 'conventional' V8 180 degree design to XRV8 Gremlin's header system but I plan to show them when/if ever I get to the point of making the 180 degree header system for this car.

It's 'in the works' though... just a matter of time (the Rebel/M's engine mounts are made to allow the crossover pipes under the engine so cylinders 3 & 5 and 4 & 6 can have their exhaust pulses meet with 1 & 7 and 2 & 8)

Fun seeing vintage pics of your Dad's car. (we had 'black and white TV' back then too!)


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jul/17/2018 at 1:32am
Tested the new custom wiring for the fans, instrument cluster, alternator/charging system, ignition, starter etc and everything works as intended.

Where 'less is more', removing weight by gutting the doors; before and after:

Before:



68 lbs.



After:



44 lbs.



-so the doors got installed and the car got a 48 lb. weight reduction.
 

-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jul/18/2018 at 11:20am
XRV8 RP Shop Drawing to help explain Rebel/M-XRV8 construction goals:



...already reset date on camera!


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jul/18/2018 at 11:38am
Theory is the car goes nowhere until the C/G (center of gravity) moves, whereas all other movement is 'unwanted movement', pulling the car in other directions that must be absorbed and controlled by the suspension. Excessive gyrations are parasitic movement, where energy from the engine (prime mover of the vehicle) is 'lost' to moving the chassis in undesired directions. By reducing parasitic movement of the chassis, more power is used to move the center of gravity instead.


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jul/25/2018 at 8:02am
-Getting it sorted out so it runs and drives good:





-ready for a five panel 'Wink' rear view mirror?





 

-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jul/25/2018 at 8:05am
Fitted engine torque strap:


 


hood pins...





-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: WesternRed
Date Posted: Jul/25/2018 at 8:14am
Watching this with interest, we have a racing class in Australia known as Sports Sedans, which are basically very heavily modified road course cars. Back in their heyday, mid mounted engines were fairly common, very quick and spectacular to watch. Quite a bit of interest in them from a historic racing perspective these days, bit like your historic Trans Am series.


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jul/30/2018 at 12:27am
Hey WesternRed! that's rich; thanks for the Australian historical context -I did not know that.

Test fit the one-year-only '69 grille assembly today just to see what I have to work with:



I think this '69 only' is an incredibly generic looking grille design ...which mimics the look of more than a few other more popular mid-sixties cars... almost as if AMC was doing this on purpose to say goodbye to the era?

Maybe the '69 Rebel grille looks most similar to '68 Dodge Coronet... Then again, '69 Rebel grille looks more like '66 AMX II showcar grille after all?

The '68/'69 AM Rebel hood design looks most similar to '64 Chevy Chevelle hood (very close)




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 9:13am
Found a one year only '69 Rebel rear bumper and bought it from 'gonethang' seller on eBay (good price and EXCELLENT fast shipping -got the bumper four days later)

-had to buy another left rear tail light lens (mine had busted out holes in it) thanks to that eBay seller too

Fabricated my own light weight rear bumper brackets (took me about four hours) and dummied the rear of the car together.

Pics, viewing car from the rear:





-Noticed the recessed area between the taillights on the '69 models matches the recessed areas below, on the bumper.

(A '69 Plymouth Satellite has a similar recessed area between the tail lights, but I think AM's Rebel looks better...)

The 'bright metal' Rebel SST trim that would occupy the recessed area hearkens to what many other US car makers decorated the rear of their cars with throughout the mid sixties... like a '64 Chevelle Malibu, SS Nova or Ford Fairlane.



-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 8:29pm
As you might guess, this car is blast to test drive ...not boring at all, to say the least!

In current form, the good running 327 engine may be making around 300 hp & the stripped down car may only weigh around 3000 lbs. Where 12 lbs. to every 1 hp. is 'Muscle Car Club of America's rule to qualify, this does... with a good ol' Rambler V8 engine!

It does seem to have excellent traction, making need for LSD differential a non-issue at this point. (I'm half surprised at this behavior because this same engine would smoke same tires on the Gremlin all the way through first and halfway through second, with LSD)

What surprises me is how good the brakes feel, apparently from the better weight distribution. It definitely has less 'nose dive' when putting on the brakes > they really do feel 'better balanced'.






-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 8:50pm
'Plan B' for this car is to make the engine cover (future task) completely hide the engine from view, to give the car a better chance of becoming street legal (make it appear to be more tame/less insane)

To do that, it'll need a less tall induction system... which is great excuse to see if I can tune this '77 800 cfm Carter Thermo-Quad on the custom fabbed spread bore intake manifold I made during the XRV8 Gremlin project.











Thanks AMC Forum for letting us share our pics and info here with other AMCers.


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 8:58pm
Carter Thermo-Quad on XRV8 RP custom modified spread bore Rambler V8 intake manifold:









Thanks AMC Forum.




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 9:10pm
And yes I'm planning to see if I can tune the secondary air plates using the stock internal spring first (somewhat like the Carter AVS) ~if the spring seems not up to the task, I plan to try adding counterweights to the secondary air valve plates (to help the spring) like a Carter AFB.

Only if all else fails, I have the complete choke and vacuum pulloff in order to put the secondary air valve back into it's original configuration... and this is the only reason I've left the choke horn intact, otherwise, I look forward to removing the air horn and radiusing the entrances to the throttle bores where possible.

Thermo-Quads are famous for their gutsy four barrel sound when one stomps on the gas pedal.


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: 232jav3sp
Date Posted: Aug/31/2018 at 11:00pm
Your work is awesome! I wish I had the time to do similar.


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Sep/01/2018 at 8:32am
Thank you for the really-nice positive comment.

Since the current lifter gallery/valley cover on the 327 has a cut down oil filler pipe to look much better alongside the tall intake runners, I'm pretty sure the oil filler/crankcase breather cap will be 'in the way' when I try to install the dual plane spread bore intake manifold.

So the dual plane manifold needs it's own lifter gallery cover to go along with the installation.

This particular used lifter gallery cover came with the '64 2bbl 327 I bought from John's Auto Salvage in Seguin, Tx.

It's bent oil filler pipe demanded repair and it's always a good idea to clean a used Rambler V8 valley cover because there may be hidden crud inside the baffle cavity.








-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Sep/01/2018 at 8:38am
Cleaning and repairing a used Rambler V8 lifter gallery cover with damaged oil filler pipe, more pics:










-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Sep/27/2018 at 8:31am
-Went ahead and straightened the unmodified stock type valley cover, brazed the baffle plate on, glued the cork perimeter gasket on etc. in order to install the custom modded spread bore intake manifold... deceptively easy looking task  ...took all afternoon to get it all installed 'right'.

Doing this primarily to help visualize how to make the engine cover, which is a component part of installing new floor sections, to give the car a better chance of becoming street legal.

Next sequence of pics:









-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Sep/27/2018 at 10:22pm
Fabricating custom throttle linkage bracket:




-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: Sep/28/2018 at 9:05am
one word

AWESOME !


-------------
70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Sep/30/2018 at 8:05pm
Thanks for the positive comment.

Got all the custom parts made to hook up the Thermoquad:





-Started the engine and ran it some, only to find out the idle circuits obviously need more work.

Tquad idle circuit passageways are difficult to work on: http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2361559/re-thermoquad-tuning-at-cruise.html

I'll be adapting and testing my two spare Holley 4360s next, so the test mule 327 engine becomes tame and lower on the priority list to complete the mid-engine project goal.


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Oct/24/2018 at 9:28am
Showing Holley 4360 pn# (?) made for direct replacement of same Carter Thermoquad (both made for '77 Chrysler 400 RB V8)

Notice all exterior casting 'blobs' are trimmed off the 4360 to reveal the beautifully simple, lightweight carburetor it really is.

All Holley 4360 carburetors come with a brass float (never goes soggy) and have no rubber diaphragm anything inside the carb to go bad = so it's basically impossible for a 4360 carb to seep fuel through a ruptured/rotten diaphragm down into the intake manifold (to 'accidentally' leak fuel into the engine oil) ...which is truly 'a good thing' on old engines that don't get run on a daily basis.

Hence, the Holley 4360 is one the best 'ethanol compatible' (not merely 'resistant' or 'tolerant') carburetors available to adapt to your older gasoline engine for running E10 gasohol.... IMO(!)














-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Oct/24/2018 at 9:34am
The engine starts very easy with this carburetor and idles very smooth down to about 500 rpm.

-The operational characteristic is like 'night and day' compared to XRV8 RP independent runner induction system.

-The low idle rpm capability of the 450 cfm rated Holley 4360 makes the high stall torque converter very noticeable.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: ...honestly, the 4360 made the engine feel too tame IMO, so I cleaned the idle circuits on the Thermoquad and it idles great too! (yippie!)


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Nov/21/2018 at 8:56am
So... in the process of testing the two rebuilt carbs on the heavily modified stock 4bbl intake manifold... the engine was making a serious whistle sound = Not Yippie! = 'a bad thing'.

And this is another reason why I want to test any parts I make in order to find out if there are any defects in the product.

Long story short, it was a leaky intake manifold gasket.

I solved the problem by grinding the undersides of the front runners which were contacting the topside of the lifter valley cover.

(who knows how many other Rambler V8 owners have this 'interference problem' also when swapping intakes)






 

 


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com


Posted By: Buzzman72
Date Posted: Dec/30/2018 at 10:14am
Any updates?

-------------
Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects.


Posted By: Jmerican
Date Posted: Jan/03/2019 at 2:35pm
any interest in a Qjet?


Posted By: amcenthusiast
Date Posted: Jan/21/2019 at 8:10am
Hey Buzzman ...yeah progress is slowed down but still going.

Hello Jmerican, hey good question, as you can tell both the Carter Thermoquad and the Holley 4360 are Rochester Quadrajet competitors.

-Carter's Thermoquad design solves the problem of Rochester's heavy zinc bodied design.

-Holley's Economaster design solves the problem of Rochester's complexity.

No doubt the metering rod style Rochester carbs were among the best of the era, if not ~The Best~ carbs that ever came on US cars prior to advent of memory chip controlled fuel injection systems.

Made in the millions, Q-jets have massive tune-ability and parts availability.

Quadrajetparts.com is one of my favorite carb parts vendors -I really like their webpages -good source for carburetor information along with excellent parts for sale, good prices & fast shipping.

(as anyone might see) this Rebel project is mainly about showing off the Rambler V8 engine.

My two reasons for not 'going with a Q-jet are:

1) They are a GM product, which sparks a huge sense of rivalry in my mind.
2) Q-jets are heavy (like the old Holley modular design in that regard)

Since I believe the reputation of AM's Rambler V8 is spoiled by (arguably ignorant) remarks saying it's too heavy to make a good hot rod engine candidate, I'm somewhat permanently inclined to show modifications to make the engine lighter.
 


-------------
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com



Print Page | Close Window