front timing chain cover
Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=89451
Printed Date: Apr/17/2024 at 11:35pm
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Topic: front timing chain cover
Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Subject: front timing chain cover
Date Posted: Aug/30/2017 at 3:36pm
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I was wondering if it's possible to remove the front timing chain cover with the motor still in the car with the oil pan still bolted to the bottom of the block. Of course everything in front of the cover will need to be taken off, probably the radiator, too? I think I need to replace the gasket between the block and the cover. Thanks Steve |
Replies:
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/30/2017 at 4:04pm
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Yep done It many a time. When you install, be sure to trim the two bottom gasket segments to align with the pan holes and but up against the trimmed off old gasket pieces. A knife will be needed to clean it up along with old cover casket material on the face of the engine. Use plenty of gasket compound to fill the joint of the gasket to pan, and install the two pan bolts fit finger tight until the cover aligns with the downs and pops into place. Then install a few cover bolts to hold in place and properly seal the cover. Finish up with the bottom pan bolts and install accessories. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Date Posted: Aug/30/2017 at 4:50pm
| Do you have any tips for installing the gasket for the cover as it''s not very wide in places. |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/30/2017 at 5:10pm
Use RTV around the full perimeter, taking care of the oil and water ports of the cover, and lay thr gasket in place making sure when gasket is flat against the cover the ports are clear and not much has oozed out. I wait about 5 to 10 minutes to make sure it tacks in place. Mainly once the cover is started for alignment the gasket could shift and you may end up with offset gasket holes. To help with keeping the gasket set while installing the cover, I use a few smaller bottom portion bolts to keep the gasket from shifting when it settles past the pins and starts to seat. You can wrap a wee bit of paper around the shank near the head end of the bolts to keep them from sliding out as the cover will be tilted once you start with setting it in place. Be sure to RTV the cork gasket segments once your ready to install the cover. I usually wait for the gasket segments to set a wee bit, as once you start bolting the pan to the cover, things get sloppy if hurried. You may do a dry run with how you attack the cover before starting the gasket install so you can see how things meet up and how the process of fitment can be unexpectedly difficult if going in a hurry. RTV is slow at drying so it's not going to be a race to install before it skins up and does not stick. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
71 Javelin AMX O.O. wrote:Posted By: mmaher94087
Date Posted: Aug/30/2017 at 6:48pm
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"I think I need to replace the gasket between the block and the cover." OK, I'll bite. What makes you think you need to replace the timing cover gasket? Curious mind wants to know... ------------- Mike |
Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Date Posted: Aug/31/2017 at 9:21am
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Glad you asked. Right above the oil pan lip at the right front corner just below the oil pressure sending unit I get a small drip of coolant. I've checked every seam that I can see and can't figure out how coolant can be leaking out at that location. I thought the first thing would be to remove as much of the front accessories and see if something shows up. Also I was thinking of putting a dye in the coolant and seeing if I can tract it down. The water pump to the timing chain cover looks tight. My engine is super clean, so it can be hard to see where this is coming from. It's not a lot of coolant, but annoying. IO don't want to put a coolant stop leak in the system either. Any suggestions? Steve |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/31/2017 at 9:41am
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My 73 Javelin had a hole develop at one of the water passages behind the water pump. Could be that the gasket failed from a loose long bolt. Or erosion at the cover's mating surface. IIRC, the cover has a wee trough cut around the sealing area of the water ports coming from the water pump. It is possible that channel may allow leaking if compromised. Check your oil's condition. Just in case as it could be leaking internally into the oil pan, from the front of the engine drain back. As another thought came up... The head has a freeze plug up front. Check if it is not leaking down and onto the timing cover. It think it aligns very close. Just a thought. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: mmaher94087
Date Posted: Aug/31/2017 at 10:56am
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304-dude wrote: "IIRC, the cover has a wee trough cut around the sealing area of the water ports coming from the water pump. It is possible that channel may allow leaking if compromised." I have experienced leaking at this seam also. The aluminum timing chain cover to block sealing area is thin in this area and corrosion can cause the seal to leak. Before tearing things apart, you may wish to get the engine up to operating temp and shut it down. Take a piece of TP or paper towel and, starting at the top, run it slowly down the seam of the T-C cover. Where the TP gets wet is likely very close to where the coolant is leaking. While not a warm thought; you may need a new T-C cover. Inspect your old one carefully as a leak around the water passage is usually not going to seal with only a new gasket. A straight edge across the housing may help. ------------- Mike |
Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Date Posted: Aug/31/2017 at 2:42pm
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Everyone: The gasket between the timing chain cover and block does look wet, but not so much that you can see it run. I have been tightening the bolts that hold the cover on to the block as they work loose. Kind of impossible to get a wrench on some of them with the pullys on. That was my reason to change the gasket. No freeze plug leaks. The channel that you mentioned was sealed up as it did go through the casting. I didn't know why it was there and thought to plug a possible leak when it was first installed. Maybe it's come loose? The timing chain cover was inspected by Bulltear as he thought any old cover should be checked for warpage. It passed with no warpage. It's been 5 years the motor has been running, so my thought is it still needs a new gasket. Oil looks fine with no sign of coolant. Thanks for the input. Steve |
Posted By: 401MATCOUPE
Date Posted: Aug/31/2017 at 6:14pm
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Steve, Just an FYI, if you own a black light or can borrow one, Anti Freeze will glow under black light, I have trouble shot a lot of "mystery" leaks on all brands that way with success. One more piece of advise, you made a good point about how do you get the front cover gasket on the dowels and the " short pan rail" gasket all in place at one time. That is a very legitimate problem.....the real problem is the pan rail gasket (still installed on block) is still "compressed" by the pan being installed, the piece they give you in the front timing cover set is full uncompressed thickness.....the two don't play well together. After way to many failed attempts over the years, I found that installing the timing cover gasket on the block with Permatex Right Stuff in Caulking Gun. Gently push gasket in place over the dowels and align all the holes then coat the surface that will be against the timing cover. DO NOT INSTALL the cork extensions of the pan rail, but rather place a thick layer of the Right Stuff on the pan and on the bottom of the timing cover.....you are trying to put enough to fill the void left by the missing cork. Tighten all the cover bolts up, put the oil pan bolts int he hole and very lightly snug them....after Right Stuff is dry (I like to wait 24 hours to be safe), then tighten down the pan bolts and put her back together. I have NEVER had one leak at the pan to cover interface after this method......but try to install those cork pieces will make you say some choice words!
------------- Ross K. Peterson 68X,GoPac,343,AT,52A(1stCar) 68X,GoPac,390,4sp,52A 69X,GoPac,390,4sp,64A 70X,GoPac,390,4sp,87A,8 70X,GoPac,390,4sp,BBO,8 70 Jav SST,390,AT,BSO 74MatX,401,AT,Prototype 74MatX,401,AT |
Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Date Posted: Aug/31/2017 at 8:45pm
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Ross: I was thinking of using Right Stuff as I have had success with it vs the cork gasket. I guess you made the very point that I had asked at the beginning. Can you install the timing chain cover with the oil pan still on the block. I'll try the black light idea. I didn't know that anti freeze showed up with a black light. Do you still use the paper gasket on the block to timing cover mating surface? I had the idea of using gasket spray sealant on the cover housing and paper gasket side and sticking them together and letting it dry overnight. Then the gasket surface mating to the block, and the block face is sprayed with the gasket sealant and using the dowel pins put together. Less chance of the paper gasket slipping. I would put a bead of Right Stuff around the oil pan surface first as you recommended instead of the cork gasket. Steve
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Posted By: Moffman
Date Posted: Aug/31/2017 at 11:57pm
I put a thin coat of rightstuff on both sides of the paper gasket. Held it in place and no leaks whatsoever.
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Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Date Posted: Sep/28/2017 at 10:23am
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I was looking at the engine yesterday contemplating the removal of the front timing chain cover and was wondering if it could be removed with the radiator in place? It looks to have enough room to pull the long bolts that hold the cover on the front of the block, but is it enough room to do a good job re-installing the cover with gasket? When I did my restoration on the engine compartment the last items installed was the inner plastic grill and radiator. It made it easy to install the power steering pump, alternator and pullys. Just trying to get a plan of attach for this winter. It's got the Borg Warner automatic so the mess of disconnecting the trans coolant lines it going to be something to figure, too? Do I drain the trans too? Steve |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Sep/28/2017 at 12:01pm
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It can be done, but I did mine way back in college, and my hands and arms were thinner. Not sure how long ago the engine was worked on, but the fan blade removal is the biggest issue. Even with thin hands, once you break free a bolt, you end up rubbing against the fins to the radiator. I suggest finding a good section of cardboard and taping it to mask the fins well. Just one sheet as It will be thin enough to keep enough room for tools. |
Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Date Posted: Sep/28/2017 at 12:36pm
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I guess I can give it a try and take the radiator out if it's too hard to work on the cover? Just hoping for some hands on experiance with this type of project to reduce the amount of disassemble, as the engine compartment looks really nice right now. Steve |
Posted By: SKeown
Date Posted: Sep/28/2017 at 1:04pm
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Do yourself a favor, go ahead and take it out. SKeown
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Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Date Posted: Sep/29/2017 at 10:22am
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thanks. Sounds like I have a big job this winter! Good I have the space and a heated garage here in Minnesota to do this! Steve |
Posted By: Red20
Date Posted: Oct/19/2017 at 10:58pm
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I don't know if you've already attacked this, Steve, but you'll thank yourself for removing the radiator. Once the tranny fluid lines are cracked, let the fluid drain out of the lines into a pan for a while then I ziptie a rag over the end of each one to absorb small remaining drips. If you have soft lines all the way from the tranny to the cooler as I do, you can lift them up above the level of the transmission and tie them off to something. Either way, they won't empty the tranny or anything. Just take note of about how much fluid you lost and top it off after you button it all up. As for gaskets, if I know I have perfectly true mating surfaces, I'll spray both sides of a paper gasket with copper coat, let it get tacky and install. For an aluminum timing cover, definitely a thin coat of Ultra Black or Right Stuff. ------------- 1969 Javelin SST "Screamin' Banana" - Totaled Feb 2018 1973 Hornet Sportabout X "yellajack" - 360/727/TracLoc DAILY DRIVER |
Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Date Posted: Oct/20/2017 at 10:02am
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Red20 No, I'm still driving the AMX for a couple more weeks. I did confirm with the place that rebuilt my Borg Warner automatic that the tranny will not completely drain out once the coolant lines are removed. If it did, I would drain the tranny first. I was going to do a paper gasket spray sealant from Permax on the gasket first and follow with a thin coat of Right Stuff. I was going to put the gasket on the timing cover first and let that sit over night and them use the sealant/Right Stuff for the block face the next day. Less chance for the gasket to slip installing it. I know those alinement pins get it at the right location, but the space is going to be tight, even with the radiator out. Steve |
Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: Oct/20/2017 at 11:20am
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to keep more of the fluid in the trans and trans cooling lines, I've used a short piece of the appropriate sized rubber hose with a plug in one end. After removing one of the cooling lines, I place the other end of the rubber hose over the cooling line. ------------- 70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972 |
Posted By: Red20
Date Posted: Oct/20/2017 at 11:22am
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Sounds like a plan, though I'd personally omit the spray sealer and just wipe a thin, even coat of Right Stuff on the cover side of the gasket in it's place. Be sure you keep track of which bolt goes where when you take the front dress off of the engine/heads. I like to clean and mark each bolt head with a number. Then I draw a graphic representation of the layout of the bolts as seen from the front of the engine and/or take a few pictures with my phone of all of them in place and numbered. That and keeping any spacers, washers, and nuts with their respective bolts goes a long way towards easy reassembly. ------------- 1969 Javelin SST "Screamin' Banana" - Totaled Feb 2018 1973 Hornet Sportabout X "yellajack" - 360/727/TracLoc DAILY DRIVER |
Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Date Posted: Oct/21/2017 at 1:13pm
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Red20 You are correct as the bolts and washers/spacers seem to be all different. I take a piece of my wife's fabric bolt cardboard that is about an inch thick and punch a holt with the bolt at the location on the part that I'm removing. I usually do a rough outline of the part, in this case the timing chain cover. The thick cardboard holds the bolts upright so as you move it around they don't fall out. Steve
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Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Date Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 11:59am
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All: I was able to tighten the bolts holding the timing chain cover on the front of the block and the coolant stopped dripping. I was surprised how loose the bolts were and plan on using new lock washers with thread sealant for a more permanent fix. I'm going to try to remove just the bolts without taking out the radiator. I know I will need to remove the alternator, belts fan, pullys and brackets to get to the bolts. Some were pretty hard to just get a wrench on to tighten without taking anything off. Think I can do this without removing the radiator? I was concerned that the timing chain cover bolts would be too long to remove with the radiator in place? Thanks Steve |
Posted By: 71 Javelin AMX O.O.
Date Posted: Mar/21/2018 at 2:59pm
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I have replaced the lock washers on the large bolts holding the timing chain cover on the front of the block and used some thread sealant, too. I didn't pull the radiator, but placed a piece of cardboard over the fins so I could take the fan bolts off. It was a little tricky putting the fan and spacer back on the water pump pully, but with the ratheting creasant wrench, it was easier to tighten them down. Just need some decent weather here in Minnesota to open the door and check for leaks. |
Posted By: Joseph Lamb
Date Posted: Apr/23/2019 at 3:34pm
| thanks for the good ideas!! |