Are these alignment specs unstreatable?
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Category: Competition
Forum Name: Autocross, circle track
Forum Description: Ralleys, autocross, non-drag racing events and conversations
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Topic: Are these alignment specs unstreatable?
Posted By: 304-dude
Subject: Are these alignment specs unstreatable?
Date Posted: Jul/22/2017 at 6:56am
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Now that I am in the running to do the big change... Here my specs I plan to run with once things are set into place, after all I will have a lot built around Mustang steering. SVT Rims 17x9 with P295/45 (Front) P315/45 (Rear) Toe in 1/16" (Some run 0) Caster 7° (Shelby GT500) Camber -2° (SVT SCCA track) The above are a general mix of Mustang performance preferences for auto cross. My main concern is 7° caster, I dont think i have ever driven with that much. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Replies:
Posted By: 343sharpstick
Date Posted: Jul/22/2017 at 9:34am
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That's close to what I have now. I like it. I have only 1.5 deg. I feel like I could even go with more caster, but I've yet to try it. |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/22/2017 at 10:15am
Ah, though 1.5 degrees caster is a bit light compared to 7, but I guess with big tires both caster and camber can be offset by big tires. I was thinking of pushing -5 degrees camber but that won't do well for daily driving. Thanks! ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
343sharpstick wrote:Posted By: 73Gremlin401
Date Posted: Jul/22/2017 at 10:29am
Unlike the old days, massive amounts of negative camber are no longer needed to make a performance tire work well. .5 - 1 degree of negative camber is gracious plenty for most applications. With regard to the positive caster, yes, more can help, but it also puts a huge strain on the power steering pump (or, if you have manual steering, your arms). With AMC stock lower control arms, any more caster than 2 degrees puts a lot of strain on the pivot bushing and the arm itself. I do run up to 2.5 degrees of positive caster in my Gremlin for track and autocross use, but I look at the lower control arm regularly, and consider it to be a wear item that has a finite life-span, even with reinforcement. I also had to push the lower corner of the front fender out about 1" to clear the tires. I run 245/50-16 all around. AMC did this on Spirit and Concord, I use 83 Spirit front fender spreader bars (the steel bar than runs from the frame rail out to the lower leading edge of the fender). the earlier Gremlin bars are about 2" shorter. ------------- 73 Gremlin 401/5-spd. 77 Matador Wagon 360/727. 81 Jeep J10 LWB 360/4-spd 83 Concord DL 4-dr 258/auto  |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/22/2017 at 11:32am
Yes, I do understand what you have stated. So it seems today's wide tires can make up for camber. I should have explained that I am modernising my suspension to allow my settings without setting adjustments out to the max as with a stock suspension. 343sharpstick knows some of my mods and has introduced his own take with his trunnion replacement kit. I have also incorporated a Mustang rack and pinion, so some assisted power will compensate for more positive castor. I have changed, or will be changing suspension tower location soon, to place positive castor as a default point with strut rod centered in its adjustment. Thus modernising the older stock setup. Plus I have extended both control arms location 1" out towards the fender. Since I plan on flaring the wheel openings and are using Ford SVT rim with an offset, I fit a wider tire. In a way I was expecting more mebers with a CF suspension, who auto cross street driven cars, to chime in on how much they allow for daily driving. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 73Gremlin401
Date Posted: Jul/22/2017 at 12:37pm
I like your idea of re-locating the suspension tower, the way AMC fabricated the side walls there's no reason it can't be done fairly cleanly and still look 'stock' to the casual observer. I'd love to see some before and after pics of the process. I wish I was one of the ones with a CF setup to tell you how it works on track!! I love their kits, and unfortunately for me, it all appeared on the market shortly after I did a coil-over conversion on mine. Timing is everything.... ------------- 73 Gremlin 401/5-spd. 77 Matador Wagon 360/727. 81 Jeep J10 LWB 360/4-spd 83 Concord DL 4-dr 258/auto |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/22/2017 at 1:29pm
Well, once I get caught up with one final project, I will be cutting spot welds to remove the lower radiator support (just because), elephant ears, troughs and suspension humps. Will be adding updated pictures to my thread to show the process. Not sure if you seen the thread and what is required to clear everything to look stock and fit. Relocation of the hood hinge studs and cutting a strip on the firewall side of the opening. Plus cutting a seem, for re bending the upper portion at a wider angle at the top of the tower, to angle the bottom, as to shift the upper arm mounting holes 1 inch closer to the cut mounting flanges (1 on each side) and weld in place. I have not covered the hump mods completely as they are almost ready for bending and welding. http://theamcforum.com/forum/topic53345_post478885.html#478885" rel="nofollow - http://theamcforum.com/forum/topic53345_post478885.html#478885 ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 73Gremlin401
Date Posted: Jul/22/2017 at 2:21pm
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[QUOTE] Well, once I get caught up with one final project, I will be cutting
spot welds to remove the lower radiator support (just because), elephant
ears, troughs and suspension humps. Will be adding updated pictures to
my thread to show the process. Not sure if you seen the thread and what is required to clear everything to look stock and fit. Relocation of the hood hinge studs and cutting a strip on the firewall side of the opening. Plus cutting a seem, for re bending the upper portion at a wider angle at the top of the tower, to angle the bottom, as to shift the upper arm mounting holes 1 inch closer to the cut mounting flanges (1 on each side) and weld in place. I have not covered the hump mods completely as they are almost ready for bending and welding. http://theamcforum.com/forum/topic53345_post478885.html#478885" rel="nofollow - http://theamcforum.com/forum/topic53345_post478885.html#478885 [QUOTE] Holy Crap you are fearless. (and I mean that in an absolutely complimentary way) I like how you are understanding of what engineering AMC put in, and did not put in, to the suspension architecture, and how you are cleanly adapting the Ford rack and uprights. nice work. ------------- 73 Gremlin 401/5-spd. 77 Matador Wagon 360/727. 81 Jeep J10 LWB 360/4-spd 83 Concord DL 4-dr 258/auto |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/22/2017 at 3:18pm
Thanks! I think It is because I started off with parts finding... 3 years and more off and on. While doing so I got info from Farna about the Ford steering arms and slowly found things that needed addressed as I moved along. So I guess blind careful planning. My mind does most of the work while while I sleep so to speak. Once an idea becomes so simple in concept, the implementation can be time consuming to the fact i have limited resources, and must think of ways to go beyond what I think is a limitation. Very little shop experience and never got into any structural stuff like this, and most of all nobody has quite done things the way I have. So anyway, i hope to have a bit more to add, but this weather is not being kind to me. Looks like add long summer. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/23/2017 at 8:21am
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After a bit of looking around deeper with the Ford guys, I made an average assessment with the tires and camber setting most are willing to drive on the streets. My original thought was -2° and now -1° seems to be about where I should be for dual purpose. So far a handful of guys are pushing +7° castor with Cobra racks. Vettes on the other hand are up to +5° for GS. Seems that Ford Cobra racks like or can deal with such angle for castor, or the wider wheel tire combo on the GS vette make too much effort on the GM rack. Ford did set Cobra pumps for more flow on GT500 Mustangs, for the added resistance by high rate of camber. I will allow for the larger castor angle when finalising my suspension setup. This way I don't end up limiting myself if I find it usable on the streets. Until I am able to road test further my thoughts on alignment will stand at 0° rake, 1/16" toe in, -1° camber and +7° caster with P295/45R17 tires. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: shootist
Date Posted: Jul/25/2017 at 9:07pm
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Hey 304, I am running the CF IFS and 4-link rear. I pretty much run stock spec on the camber and the caster on mine is set to +4° I run the flaming river manual mustang 2 rack and it is a little tough turning at rest but not intolerable and easy turning at speed. I haven't gotten seat time on the auto-x yet but figured it would be a good starting point and we will go from there. Driving on the street there really is no bump steer issues and I have to say the geometry on the Control Freak IFS is done very well. I could run the caster up to around +6-7° but I highly doubt it would be necessary or beneficial to go with more caster than what I am running since as it currently sits you can release the wheel and the car goes perfectly straight at any speed (I have had it up to 110-120 mph and the same result). I would imagine the car would run well into the 150-160 range and still maintain stability rather easily but we will find that out soon enough as I am rapidly approach project completion and race time. ------------- 
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Posted By: 343sharpstick
Date Posted: Jul/25/2017 at 10:12pm
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Sounds like the rack and pinion behaves much differently to caster settings than the stock steering box. No surprises there. Even with 7 degrees caster, steering can be done with my finger tips, which I'm not a huge fan of. It does self-center way better however. I have a new type 2 pump, and will be looking to do a faster ratio box, so perhaps that will give me more feel. As a side note, with trunnions and only 2 degrees of caster the steering self center was pretty awful. Made AutoX very interesting, lots of elbows and hands flying around. |
Posted By: shootist
Date Posted: Jul/25/2017 at 10:29pm
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I haven't really had a chance to throw it into corners just yet but as you mentioned the self-centering on my setup at 4 degrees seems to be a good compromise between steering feel and self centering ability. I am pleased with the street manners but what makes for easy street manners is not always best for track days. That said, I am more trying for the happy middle ground between flat out track car and easy driving street car.
I don't mind a little heavier effort since it is not a daily driver but I also will be adding an EPAS setup very soon and that will allow me to dial in heavy assist when parking and virtually remove assist at speed so I can get that valuable feedback from the manual rack.
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Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/26/2017 at 3:57am
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Hey guys... Thanks for more input. And yes different rack setups, suspension limitations and what I see as for tire size seems to show various differences in how one feels the steering and how well it performs. Shootenist, i think once you upgrade your wheels and tires, you may see added benefit with more caster. Though you have a different rack setup, and may find a wall for you around 6 degrees. Just by effort. Sharpstick, your steering setup has its differences as well. So with all off ours in comparison it is like a mixed bag of fruit. So, I may be a wee more out of the box just by how different my setup is all around. Maybe once we get input from Jersey Joe, on his build, we may see more caster. I think he may have a max setup like mine with wheels and tire fit, and race setup. Since I am in the dark with trying to put my odd setup into a general mix, it is mostly a question of large wheel base with more modern performance setups. As the Mustang crowd does not fit exactly into what I am expecting, as of yet. Mostly because I am in uncharted waters. Just hoping because I kept as much as possible my Mustang equivalent, I can expect to keep up closer to what they run on the track and streets. Though we all are mixed on how we all like our rides to feel, and function. Some like comforts more than man handling. So hearing how steering effects everyone's tastes, i am always listening, as to be more cautious to safety than trying to keep up with the other guy. Perhaps I will find 5 degrees my overall setting for street and may bump for track. Was thinking I could have one setting and be done with it. At least with more replying, we all can see how so many factors effects how one in er acts with their steering. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: iapexl8r
Date Posted: Jul/26/2017 at 11:12am
| It all depends on how agressive you plan on driving on the track. If you plan on pushing the car into the 80% and above range you will need at least 2 deg of neg camber the result of less camber than this is your tires will not live through one track day, the outside edge will get destroyed. To aleviate the wear from driving on the street with that camber you may want to tighten up your toe to a 32nd of an inch. I have been running 2 1/2" of camber on a dual pourpose street/track car for many years with no problems. |
Posted By: ghinmi
Date Posted: Jul/26/2017 at 11:17am
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You may want to revisit your wheel/tire choice. For autocross, the 9" wheel is waaay too narrow for a 295 or 315. You would probably be better off with a 275 or even smaller on all 4 corners. ------------- 1975 Cherokee S - Turbo Hemi stick shift autocross/drag race/street 9.97 @ 140.4 |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/26/2017 at 12:40pm
I figured the front was pushing it as it was. 275 was what I thought originally until the Cobra guys started on edging things up a bit. There was one who did 285 for size, but that is the smallest up front I have seen. As for rears... I should be able to fit even larger tread widths by my 65" wide axle. Though I think you may be on to tire side wall roll over. Don't have all that weight centered, as many do with their track car. I figured the lighter rear would allow for wider tires. I don't want to go any smaller than 305. |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/26/2017 at 12:46pm
Ah, there was info on 0 toe in and -2.5° Camber. May try that, and work my way to 1/32" toe in increments. I figured track would require no more than -5° camber, so I expect on one adjustment done in between. My main reason I want very close to track settings, is so I can be use to one setup and not have to go between what I think was good but may not be once changed. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/26/2017 at 5:41pm
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Ok guys... I got around to looking at tire options and realised that some of the track Cobras and GT500s are using wider rims or combination. Also what helped confuse me is you can put the same tire that works on a 9 wide rim of the same size on 10 inch rim. So my mixed bag of comparisons threw me a curve. So back to square one. P275/45R17 all around. Toe in is set at 1/32" as iapexl8r had stated this for his use, and from another couple of GT500 guys with that setting for both track and on the roads. Castor is funny... some run +7° and +6.5° for roads. So I figure +7° castor and deal with road tilt. Ha! -1.5° is max camber for many road driven Mustangs. I figure I will try -2° as a starting point and have a quick setting for -3° and -4° for track. Will update my info so I don't go off by using my noodle. Ha! Thanks for all your moments, as it shows how far one can go and still keep the sporty feel without much compromise. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: shootist
Date Posted: Jul/27/2017 at 11:48am
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From my understanding, through talking with my alignment guy (he setups up road course cars for rich guys). Caster has most impact on the go straight, return to center, high speed stability and helping correct for bump steer effects by aligning the tie rod end travel in a better geometry with the suspension travel. I think that may also be why you see such a large variance on caster as it is less critical for street and track manners. Now toe on the other hand is going to have major impact on how the car handles from responsiveness (oversteer or understeer). If you want to just think about turning the wheel and immediatley start taking a corner set the toe out. If you want to have streetable ability to drive with your knee set the toe in. As far as the camber goes, I think you will find that has the most profound effect on holding the corners. Anyway, I wouldn't get too caught up on caster provided it works like you want it to in the previously mentioned areas and rather focus attention more on toe and camber for tuning the performance how you like. Oh I think I figured out my tires sizes. It looks like I will go 18" wheels since the tires selection is better as well as the pricing. I am looking at one of these 4 for the back. 255/45-18, 265/45-18, 275/40-18 or 285/40-18 depenging on how much meat I can fit in the stock wheel well since getting rid of the leaf springs. I haven't yet calculated the front but it will likely be a 225-255 up front. I will likely keep a set of 225 harder compound for the front for everyday tooling about on the street and change over to a softer and wider tire for track days. -------------
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Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/27/2017 at 12:58pm
Thanks! Well, my concern was wear and how it may effect how much my steering is for the streets. Caster was just a big surprise to me. But i made up for it before I found such info, so the surprise was more noise than bite. Well I think I am well settled on the matter. I think for the fun of it, i will obtain 10.5x17 for the rear so I can use the 315/45 tires. Though I had to pick an not so popular SVT rim, that seems to be unique enough, only a few options are available for aftermarket. The NOS factory rims I have doubled in cost, if you can find them, since my purchase over 13 years ago. Most are going with 18 and 19 inch rims like you. Though 1k for tires is what I expect any way for myself. I have 18 inch rims on our Honda and find them a bit less forgiving in the streets, as for bumps and pot holes. Our outer lips on the rims are chewed up. Something you may realise or not on how your streets are. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: shootist
Date Posted: Jul/27/2017 at 2:06pm
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Where are you finding a 315/45-17 tire? The main reason I am looking at the 18 is sheer volume of tire size available. For the most part we have pretty good streets. I attribute that to the mild winters with limited snow/ice since that seems to really tear up the roads. I also don't drive it daily so that is another factor. I have definitely been waffling around on the wheels that I want. I wish there was a better place to search up multiple rim styles in the size and backspace that I need. Best I have found so far is Summit but most in the size and backspace also seem to lean toward being truck wheels. I wanted minilite style but I am having a hard time reconciling the cost on those. -------------
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Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/27/2017 at 2:47pm
Haven't looked up as of recent, but here are some tires. Pirreli P Zero p275/45r17 are still available Mickey Thompson had p275/45r17 street strip tire Nitto NT450 Extreme 275/50R17 - may work for me There are others I may have to search and find. Looks like older 45 and 50 series are drying up. May have to move Into the 40 series or go into the p255 to get 50 series to work better on 17 inch rims. Tire rack was my goto long ago, but there may be pers now like discount tire and tires America. Will update once I get rolling on my tire searches once more. Found an old link... Seems like racing tires are no longer made for my rim. Here is Ford racing's info. https://www.oemfordpart.com/oem-parts/ford-p315-45zr17-7v-9oo1389045106" rel="nofollow - https://www.oemfordpart.com/oem-parts/ford-p315-45zr17-7v-9oo1389045106 I give up on the 45 series street track p315 tires. Will have to do the odd p255/50 stretch to match a p315/35. Not gonna happen until I get two 17x10.5 rear wheels to match my SVT wheels. At least ture rack still stocks good tires for p275/40-17 sizes. The Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 is another option for my list. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: shootist
Date Posted: Jul/28/2017 at 12:14pm
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Ok, so it seems you are running into the same thing I did when trying to find a good rim/tire combo. The tire selection gets really limited in fatties for the 17" wheels.
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Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/28/2017 at 12:46pm
Well seems like if you keep it around 275 for 9 inches, you must put on 40 series. Unless you want to find 255 in 50 series. Which are stock on Mustangs with 17x9 back in 2002 to 2004. I may have to shell out some coin and get 10.5 wide rims that look like the 10th Anniversary SVT rims, if I want the 315s on my rear. Or one can run strip tires and have a custom tread done to help with rain conditions. I can't believe a niche market (drifting) has made mainstream tires so pimped at 35 on down or 20 series for wide treads. I just don't like 94% rim look on cars. The Japanese marketed drifting to sell more cars, and sell tires. Now everything is built around low profile tires and big rims. Well, I should not talk, the California look of the 60s and 70s came from the drags. Just never seen companies give into dropping a market segment so sharply like the 17 inch rims. If 14 and 15 inch rims were done that way, nobody would be driving with proper sized tires on their rims. At one time someone talked about using metric tires. Though that discussion was away back and have no clue now as to sized tires they needed. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jul/29/2017 at 7:28am
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Shootest, I found a source for my 17x10.5 10th Anniversary SVT wheels. Since I now am contemplating doing them on all four corners, due to how my custom steering and rear is setup, I may be the only AMC outside of JersyJoe's AMX to run wide rims on all four corners. I do plan on having the wheel arches flared with a custom 70's mod look. Now I am thinking it's probably time to sell my NOS Ford Racing 10th Ann. Cobra SVT rims to collectors or clone wannabes. Here the link if you are interested in seeing them. https://www.americanmuscle.com/anthracite-10th-17x105-9404.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.americanmuscle.com/anthracite-10th-17x105-9404.html ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: ghinmi
Date Posted: Aug/03/2017 at 11:39am
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You guys are running into the same issue I did with the 17" wheels. The largest competitive autocross tire in 17" is 275/40/17. I currently have a 275/40/17 on 17x9.5 front, 315/35/17 on 17x11 rear. So I'll be able to upgrade fronts but I have no option for the rears. Will probably have to go to a 18" wheel which is a bummer. ------------- 1975 Cherokee S - Turbo Hemi stick shift autocross/drag race/street 9.97 @ 140.4 |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/03/2017 at 1:24pm
Geeze, I am starting to feel 18 inchers is a forced option. 18 is just not to my tastes, and luckily, I will not be all that about competitiveness with tires since track time is optional. Though there is that option street wheels and tires for looks, and odd looking 18s for competition. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/07/2017 at 8:02am
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I am starting to tare myself away from the 17" rims and my love for the 10th Anniv SVT rim look. I have been juggling offsets and backspacing between 2004 and 2015 Mustang. My spring distance with stock suspension hump and a 1-1/2" spacer allows 6.75" between tire and rim with some room to spare. Oddly enough there is room with 2004 rims to fit without the spacer. My use of spacer was to make the front 65" wide on its track, keeping front and rear equal. Here are the wheel specs for non staggered front rear with widths of 10" (2004) vs 10" (2015) 2004 Mustang 10" wide rim 0.86" Offset 6.37" Backspace 5.25" + 0.86" = 5.86" (More than enough room with my suspension hump mod of 7.00" distance between spring and rim.) 2015 Mustang 10" wide rim 1.65" Offset (May not clear rear leaf springs on stock rear ends) 7.15" Backspace 5.25" + 1.65" = 6.85" (Cuts it close with my suspension hump mod.) On the plus side of using impossible 2015 rims, is less need for huge bulging fender flares. Though, it will shorten my track width very close to 64" wide. Just so happens it fits within 1971 SCCA rules for T/A racing. Never would have thought about changing over to newer rims, though everything was built up long before there was an option. Here is a picture of what rim I am allowing myself to accept the blasted 18" rims.  Now finding a nicer tire option should not be so difficult with having more variety. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: shootist
Date Posted: Aug/07/2017 at 11:47am
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Since you like that particular look check out the US Mags Rambler wheel. I love the look of it.
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Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/07/2017 at 12:34pm
Hi, thanks for the option. Unfortunately they fall into the same issue I have with American Racing Torque Thrust type wheels in 18 inch format. The polished ring being more prominent than the tire side wall. I guess l like being more old school with trim ring type looks. Thus my odd pick for spokes and no prominent lip on big wheels. I guess it is making cool looking era wheels to be something too big for their britches look. Not that the wheel looks odd, it is how It looks when mounted with low profile tires for my build. My brain wants no bigger than 17" but I feel 17" are a limiting factor now these days. Who knows 10 years from now the tires we buy will be limited to 19 and 20 inchers. Seems like new cars now, that are performance related, have 19" wheels or larger. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: shootist
Date Posted: Aug/07/2017 at 1:17pm
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Well you could always go with the duplicolor custom wrap peelable paint on the lip of the wheel. If you made it matte black it would completely change the appearance and look like more tire rather than more wheel... Just a thought and a possible option for any other style of wheel you want.
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Posted By: shootist
Date Posted: Aug/07/2017 at 1:22pm
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I have actually been considering just the good ol fashioned steel D windows like menace runs on his.
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Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/07/2017 at 1:35pm
Geeze, haven't you made up your mind yet? Ha! I just started once you reminded or should I say told me about tire availability. Never think sleeping on something will be easier said than done. Especially tires and wheels. Hehehehehehehehehe! Well I bet you get yours before I get mine. I have to yet get rolling so, wheels will always flip flop until I am truly in need. I would not be so much into dealing with 17 inch tires and wheels, but when I started realising how much more wider I can go... that was a challenge to make the most of what I got, after all I never planed to add an inch and use my wheel spacers to match the rear. A true give a mouse a cookie story line for me. Until I hit a brick wall some where the endless upgrading will finally end. Hopefully wheel companies will hit a brick wall at 22" limits, I hate to see how things go with rims 15 years from now. Just my luck 15 and 16 inchers will be back in style with tire options. Ha! ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: shootist
Date Posted: Aug/07/2017 at 2:17pm
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I am right there with you. I just don't like the look of too much wheel and 17" was going to be my max size until I started trying to find the tires I wanted/needed. Now I am torn, I suspect I will just get the inexpensive steel D windows in an 18" and wrap them in the trackday rubber. In the meantime I will keep my classic 15" Torque Thrust II looks for the street and everyday and just put a good drag radial on the back to handle the power.
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Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/07/2017 at 4:34pm
yep, the torque thrust D is a fine wheel. just for me no space for a seperate set. plus i fear the snow days with chains and a locker rear end will be a challenge. almost tempted to do anti lock brakes as my hubs have provisions for wheel speed senors. maybe when i am board and have my mind set, that will be another thing to do. geeze, i am my own enemy when i start thinking of what else i can do. though many are wondering why i chose to run a locker over a more forgiving carrier. Well it is that it is hard to break a good locker, and i may choose a super charger later on. plus I should be too lasey to deal with mechanical work by the time i am all done with it. at least you can enjoy your rides driving them. some day i will not be so envious. heheheehehehe! ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/08/2017 at 8:53pm
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Well after a bit of thinking, and more searching. Geeze I went through 1000 wheels and there was at least 2 k more on the wheel manufacturer that makes the Rambler wheel. Though I found an 18 inch wheel I can truely live with. It looks like the 03 Cobra SVT 10th anniversary wheel and has almost the same offset. Though being 10.5" wide, and maximising the tread width to P325, which is a wee over 12.75". Cutting it very close to 7.25" tread edge to spring. Mind you I am not running coil overs. I will have to get on moving my suspension humps and set things properly to measure before ordering. My camber is like 13 degrees as distance to spring is about 1 inch shorter from tilt in. The blasted wheels only come in silver paint. Right now I don't wanna look at wheels again! I may paint them to what ever looks best for my build.  Here is a photo shopped image to remove most of the lip with using black paint as an outer boarder to make the tire side wall look taller.  ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/11/2017 at 11:57am
Ah, i just found some info about professional track setups. Once I got into Hoosier tires, there was info on their recommended tires for wheel sizes. Low and behold p315 is out of the question for 10.5" wide tires. So ghinmi, you are very correct on how a tire and rim setup works on the track. I guess too many weekend warriors, who use their daily driver in competition, are going with street tire setups dictated by oversized mentality and looks on fitment. Note these tires require break in with 24 hrs cool down to season the tire completely. Though, I could keep my 17x9" and run these track only tires. At 24 lbs per rim they will be heavy compared to real race rims. Heck the 18x10.5 rims will weigh about the same, so might as well think big. All in all these tires are like running race fuel in a lawn mower, for my purposes. Though it would be fun seeing how much a setup car would handle on the track. Here is a link. http://www.bimmerworld.com/Wheels-Tires/Tires/Hoosier-Racing-Slick-Tires-R80-R100.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.bimmerworld.com/Wheels-Tires/Tires/Hoosier-Racing-Slick-Tires-R80-R100.html ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 343sharpstick
Date Posted: Aug/11/2017 at 2:58pm
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I've often used this Falken AZENIS RT615 Tire chart I made to figure out tire dimensions and what would fit. My '69 Javelin with my updated front suspension now has the 245/45-17 on all 4 corners. it looks and works great. That said, I may go bigger but I can't go much bigger without altering sheet metal. So for what I'm doing 17's will suit this car just fine. That said, I know 71 and later Javelins can fit a massive tire. Note the only tire that has an O.D. Larger than 26 inches is the 295/40-18. The only reason to move up to an 18 inch rim is to utilize the two largest sizes, the 295 and 315. If I were doing a 71 or later Javelin I would probably use the 275/40-17 up front and the 315/30-18 out back. I would think that would better balance the car, and have minimal unsprung weight up front. It's interesting that the 275/40-17 is 3.6 pounds lighter than the 315/30-18. 
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Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Aug/11/2017 at 3:28pm
I noticed that with skewed rim sized rears. I have yet to find one set that matches the dish and lip all inclusive to the sizes used. The one I picked for my 18 inch rim choice was just perfect in its symmetry like a 17 or 16 inch rim as for dish and spoke. The only other option is to stuff... wait for it! 18x12" Shelby Cobra replica rims all around. They are super sweet to me, but way beyond what I need. If I were to build my car strictly for race that I would do. One thing I will not do is stagger sizes or widths with my rims. As for 17 inchers, i have a perfect set of 17x9" that I would keep for my own use, but the choices for 17" rims are not as varied as 18" rims. It's a catch 22 thing. Back when I thought about 9 wide rims, i had no idea how far I would go with my suspension mods, and of recent I am seeing options never thought of. In a way I don't mind seeing how far I can go, as to if I break it or justify all my work, and show how durable a I think it will be. On your chart, there are differences with tires with approved rim width. I see guys stretching tires to fit wider rims, and as in my quest to find what is used both In track and street, tires being over sized to the rim requirements. Maybe it is a height issue they are fudging or looks, or maybe both. With your chart, i gather I can use a wide tread with one manufacturer but may not be able to with another. Plus being on the track, scuffing or rolling over the wall can come into play, when not checking tire fitment. So, when I look for tires, i will have to check each manufacturers charts to verify which choices I make. It use to be much simpler than that with street tires but once you get sporty, it's different. Now that I am looking at such large rims, I am finding I am closer to touching on Corvette guys setups. 0 toe out, -2.0 camber and 5 to 7 caster. Though most boys are running close to that as it is. One thing odd is the vetts seem to run larger rims in the rear both in width and diameter. It may work for vetts, but I don't see it happening for my car. Thanks for the info and chart, still mulling around with ideas. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Oct/15/2017 at 3:06pm
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Radial tires take more caster than old bias plies. More caster means quicker return to straight running, and tracks straight easier. I can only get 3 degrees on my 63 Classic, would love to get 6 degrees! Better for a street car. With 3 degrees it's real quick to turn though, so a road race car might do better with 3-4 degrees. Mine has real touchy steering, but I think I have a quick ratio rack T-bird turbo coupe rack. Didn't mean to get it, pulled rack from first late 80s/early 90s T-bird I found without an engine. Went back later after installing, and I think that's what it came from. The lack of caster doesn't help though. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Oct/16/2017 at 6:43am
Yep, I understand the caster issues... just was worried about large tire wear pattern, and overly sensitive steering with how all adjustments are left for mostly track conditions, rather than near stock. I don't think the quick ratio T - bird rack would be much of an issue, if you had more of an exact fit. Being a wee off here and there add up. Plus the castor angle... then Mustang guys like to push 7 degrees and more. Haven't looked into rack steering arm length differences between GM, Mopar and Ford. But having short arms may require a wee more castor with GN95 racks over others. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: Oct/16/2017 at 7:03am
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Have you been running the car like this? I might have missed it in the middle of the thread somewhere, but how well are the 295's fitting up front? (!) I have 255's on the front of my 71 but it hasn't been outside of the driveway yet so I just wonder what I'll be in for as far as clearance goes. (I understand you have suspension mods, it's the body mods to fit the tires I'm wondering about) Thanks! ------------- 71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX some Jeeps and some Fords |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Oct/16/2017 at 9:27am
Well my front is far from stock... It has a total track width of 65" from center to center. So there is 2.5" inches more clearance than stock in the wheel well. Plus my springs will be tilted 10 degrees away from the wheels. Yes I incorporated suspension hump modding to the body. As for rolling a lip on fenders won't know for sure as the wheels can be obtained with various offsets. I added about 1" to the lower control arm, and have a 2" spacer on the hubs. May dump the spacer depending on which offset I can find. The spacers were done for just the rack and Cobra 17x9" wheels. Once I got into further mods, the spacers are not mandatory, just gives wheel options. I did not plan on using 10.5" wheels up front, until I looked at all the benefits from my suspension mods. Once I got what if in my head, it turned out to be yes it fits. So there you go. Sorry to be plugging along with constantly updating this reply... Internet in my area has been intermittent and delaying of recent. Not that I am plugging for my suspension thread, but it seems a few raise questions that I expected to have found here on my thread... http://theamcforum.com/forum/mega-modding-suspension-steering_topic53345.html?KW=65+wide+track" rel="nofollow - http://theamcforum.com/forum/mega-modding-suspension-steering_topic53345.html?KW=65+wide+track ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: Oct/16/2017 at 3:23pm
Thanks for the link! I need a 2" front drop so I might even use some of your advice right off the bat. ------------- 71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX some Jeeps and some Fords |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Oct/16/2017 at 4:56pm
Great, I thought I was the only one brave to do such mods. Though Farna, long ago on another forum, gave some info about another guy doing the Mustang II spindle and GN95 rack install. I never thought until later in the game of putting it all together the added benefits of how things can stiffen up and lower without lowering plates. One mod led to another. The Mustang spring perch mod is a bit tricky in using AMC springs, you must either cut the top flat sections off both types and swap the AMC one. Or cut down enough on the AMC sides to allow use of AMC bushings for the pivot pin. The only part needed if going all Mustang purchase and spring is to swap the pivot pin out or modify the upper arm to mount. Once you obtain the 2 inch drop, your going to have to limit some lower travel, as it will allow binding in pot hole instances. My drop shifts suspension 2 inches upward, while drop plates only shift spindle and wheel for looks mostly. As for shifting the suspension out an extra inch, that started with my modded heavy duty tie rods, for linear pivoting on bump steer correction. It turned out to be advantageous for other mods. So I inadvertently made a path as I went to obtain the best all around suspension mod while keeping things looking somewhat stock. Once I get everything setup on the front end, I plan on quizzing with a picture... what is un modified stock? Off hand of all the parts to the suspension that I left untouched is down to 3 or 4 parts at best. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Nov/11/2017 at 5:51pm
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Found a great deal on new 18x10" wheels with a 24 backspace, though they weigh 25 lbs each. Won't be the best for track but they were to good to pass up. Having 12" wide treads on all four corners will be a hot look. Plus I can rotate them for longevity. Once the sale hit this week they were eaten up like hot cakes. I doubt there will be any of the 18x10" wheels left by Monday. Even the 9" are dwindling down. Though you can get some staggered sets, which I think has limited the sale of singles. Will post pix of the new rim fitment on the rear with my wide axle, to show the clearance between the leaf springs and wheel well lip. The front won't show what I have for clearance, as the fenders are not on, and my modified suspension humps have not been installed to their new positions. Though my measurements show the fronts have equal clearance between springs and suspension components. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: ghinmi
Date Posted: Nov/11/2017 at 11:12pm
Glad to hear you got the wheel/tire situation figured out! I just got my new rollers on last week. 275/40zr17s on 17x11.  ------------- 1975 Cherokee S - Turbo Hemi stick shift autocross/drag race/street 9.97 @ 140.4 |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Nov/12/2017 at 3:20am
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Nice, I am still wanting my 17" wheels back, maybe I will just use my 18" wheels for track use, and do the 17" for street. Just like seeing a wee more meat between road and wheel. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Nov/14/2017 at 8:35pm
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Well, I am not sure what wheel is being delivered to me at this point. Went and checked my account online with the wheel provider, and nada. So i looked through a few emails from my purchase date last week to early today. Found an invoice that had the particulars. Unfortunately all the wheels that I looked at as prospects in the design are removed from the site or have been consolidated to a mixed set of 9 and 10 inch wide wheels. Only one in 10 inch but it is label sold out. The only searchable item number beings up a wheel that does not reflect my purchase. Though it is of the wheel size I wanted, just it's design is not what i wanted. Though the wheels were economical for the tire I would use on the track. If I knew I was going to order such a wheel, i would have gotten a more desirable option of the 4 available. Just a bitter pill for having an order which the company that lacks site maintenance. It is possible the wheels I ordered were already sold out by the time I noticed the prices, and even if I ordered few days earlier, it would not have mattered. Crossing fingers, they stop shipment, if they do realize the miss order, and break up two sets for me in good will. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Dec/01/2017 at 4:19am
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Got my wheels early! For cheap wheels they are well packaged, never had low to mid priced new wheels shipped so well. Removed the plastic they were bagged in, to show the soft fiber liner and nylon snap on lip protector. The only cheap part of the packaging is the box. Either double box or use a heavier box, and it would be considered a premium wheel. These boxes tear easy at the handle holes. Wheel construction seems better than expected. Knowing they are pressure molded and heat treated before finishing, but it seems the paint is powder coated. Or something like it, as it seems to be bonded to the aluminum. Thin but durable. I purposely rolled the edge at the back lip on the cement, and it did not scratch up like the factory Ford Racing wheels I had. The whole wheel was done in matte black, and the face was machined in the final process. Have 2-1/4" free clearance with wheel rim and spring edge, and outer lip edge just rubs the trim lip, but that was a concern already thought about. Trim lips will be removed or rolled flat. Boy, 12" rotors look a wee small.     ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: DAMX
Date Posted: Dec/29/2017 at 12:03am
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When you run that much castor your will find that your car will drive like a late model sports car. I did it on a 1969 Camaro and the car was transformed. It tracked down the road like a Mercedes with 0 toe and -1.5• of camber. The Saginaw power steering was fine on the road or on the track. Rambler has the same so you will be okay. I ran this setup for over 10 years and done 50+ track days. I was a track driving coach, and the car was driven to the track. Run a power steering cooler for track use. Just street it won't be necessary. Regards Don |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Dec/29/2017 at 8:20am
Thanks for the info! I figured caster will help a lot with newer radial tires, and being bigger width wise will make the steering firmer. Though my rack and pinion setup was planned and done long ago, and things grew as moved along. Never planned on things as they are now, but saw benefit in how much modern sporty cars are using fairly large castor, around 5 to 7 degrees. When I first posted my question, I was concerned about long term street use and steering being touchy. Since a few still use their steering boxes, it seems my steering worries were dashed. I do plan on taking it out to some road coarse tracks, even though I don't plan to do competition. Hopefully Laguna Secca, as I was too young to drive when living around the area. What messed my thinking up, was comparing other older cars with mods. My changes go beyond older cars, and i needed to start looking at new modern cars in design. I hit quite a few sites, looking for wheel and tire combos closer to what I will be doing. Most of which are 2015 on up Mustang Cobras, and Vettes. There are some Camaro SS and SRT / heck Cat guys doing some as well, but they are too heavy for equating like front end dynamics. After looking at 2015 Mustangs, i see a lot of my front end mods being done as a Ford factory change up. Like big truck tie rods, wider length control arms, and wide rims and tires. There is more in common now with my front end with today's cars than i ever planned on. Just so happens i thought of things much earlier than Ford, though we are equally slow in making the changes. HA! ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: DAMX
Date Posted: Dec/29/2017 at 2:31pm
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Dude, Let me know if you run Laguna Seca. It is my home track. Put on good brake ducting, as it is very hard on the brakes. Get the car quiet unless you run a Shelby Club Unlimited Sound day. Regards Don |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Dec/29/2017 at 4:52pm
Uh, quiet? Well i plan on a dual SuperTrapp setup per side on my full length rocker mounted collectors. So some quietness can be done. After all it is intended on street use. Though with minor adjustments it can be ready for track. About brakes, i am aware of heat on them, and will be using dual small caliper setup per side. Smaller foot print allows more air through the wheel and brakes. May be a wee heavier than large racing brakes. Donno when my car will make it to California, but that track is on my bucket list. Though i have a feeling i will be in a tough battle with time. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/30/2017 at 8:03am
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If it's quiet enough for regular street use you will be fine. Some drag strips now require mufflers due to encroaching homes. Really should be a "we were here first" thing, but when such laws are applied they are just for the owner at the time of the law, and/or as long as the place is in continuous operation. Close it over a certain time period (not for normal seasonal closing or temporarily for repairs) and it can't be reopened, and in most cases change of ownership will close it permanently. Those laws are really just intended to temporarily stall closing... not just race tracks, sometimes other businesses that have become engulfed in urban sprawl, sometimes homes that have become engulfed in industrial/business development areas. I've seen many small farms suffer from this! Ok, enough ranting... ------------- Frank Swygert |