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Getting enough air flow for AC!!

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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: HVAC
Forum Description: air conditioning, heater and associated controls
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=88193
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 2:16pm
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Topic: Getting enough air flow for AC!!
Posted By: farna
Subject: Getting enough air flow for AC!!
Date Posted: Jun/29/2017 at 7:38am
Just venting here a bit... I've been having a problem getting enough cooling air flow in my 63 Classic with AC. On a hot, over 90 degree humid day engine temp will creep up if I have the AC on stopped at a light. So far it hasn't gone over 215, but if I got stuck in traffic for long I think it would. Have a Jeep J-10 three core radiator and a pair of 12" electric fans. Going to add a 9" electric pusher fan on a toggle switch to see if that helps. I'm a bit dubious about putting a pusher fan in front of a puller fan... seems like the pusher would block air flow, at least when cruising and the pusher isn't on. I figure it won't hurt to try it though. Temp comes back down after I get back up to cruising speed for a couple minutes, but that won't help in big city rush hour traffic where I might be creeping along at 10-30 for a while!

I may just need a new radiator, as the Jeep three core is used. Engine cools great though, won't go over 200 with AC on cruising even on a hot day, and usually runs 90-195 (195 thermostat) -- if it hits 200 it's only for a minute or less, probably the thermostat opening. Maybe a new aluminum radiator would be a bit more efficient than the old brass one... but would it be enough?


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Frank Swygert



Replies:
Posted By: 6768rogues
Date Posted: Jun/29/2017 at 7:57am
I have had very good results with aluminum radiators even the generic ones on eBay.
Do you have an automatic transmission? I once had another brand that had an automatic and I put in a good transmission oil cooler plumbed between the tranny and radiator to precool the tranny fluid before it hit the radiator and it dropped the indicated temp of the engine about 15 degrees.
Also if there is space between the edges of the condenser and the radiator you could seal them up with foam pipe insulation or something similar. Lots of air leaks through there. It won't help idling with the fan pulling air through, but cruising or with a pusher fan it will help.
You probably thought of it, but blow out the condenser and radiator to be sure their fins are clean.
I don't worry until I see the engine approaching 235 degrees. Boiling is bad and with a 14 lb. cap it will not boil until it gets over 254 degrees at sea level.


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Content intended for mature audiences. If you experience nausea or diarrhea, stop reading and seek medical attention.

Located usually near Rochester, NY and sometimes central FL.


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/29/2017 at 8:15am
Just so you know... even our newer Honda has trouble in sit and go traffic in hot humid weather. I swear we are about to boil over with the air on. Dual fans and a thin plastic radiator.

I think you will do just fine with out a pusher fan. If you can fit an electric fan setup from a Ford Contour with a J20 radiator, and a tranny cooler if needed will do just fine. Them electric fans working together will pull a lot of CFM.

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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/29/2017 at 5:21pm
I might be over worrying about it. If it was just me I'd turn the AC off if I got caught up in gridlock, roll the windows down, and just sweat it out and grumble, but will have the wife with me driving the 16 hours from Lexington, SC, to Kenosha for the Homecoming meet... then back, of course. She won't be so forgiving of me or the car for dragging her along!  I ordered a 9" fan to put in front anyway. I will just have time to put it in and test it. As long as it doesn't hurt I'll be okay.

I have an external trans cooler, just in front of the lower part of the radiator. No cooler in radiator at all. I ran a Taurus fan when I had a two core radiator. Temp would creep up on a hot day with the two core and AC even cruising on the freeway at 65, so definitely a coolant/radiator capacity problem -- fixed with three core rad. Does great on the road now, just start to creep up after 2-3 minutes stopped when hot outside.

I might end up getting a three core aluminum radiator later...


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Aug/17/2017 at 8:18am
The 9" pusher fan sort of saved the day. I turned it on when gauge showed about 210 and it would hold if traffic was moving some, but would still creep up if traffic was really slow (like the 10-15 mph all the way through Chicago for about an hour and a half!). Other than going through Chicago, only had to turn the AC off once more, stuck for about 30 minutes in Indiana construction. It was still cool enough in both instances that rolling a window down and using the blower only was still reasonably comfortable for the short times involved. On the trip home I started cutting that extra 9" on at about 200 and it held off running up to about 220 (where I shut the AC off) noticeably longer.

If I get a chance I may go to the local pick-n-pull and see if I can find a Contour fan setup. I think the two fans I have just don't pull hard enough. Most OEM fans pull more. If the Contour fans are anything like the Taurus fan I was using I know they will pull more than the ones I have now. It's either that or add a second 9" pusher on the other side...


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: 6768rogues
Date Posted: Aug/17/2017 at 2:35pm
You discovered the reason that manufacturers went to temperature lights instead of gauges. If you had a light that came on at 225 or higher, you never would have known that the temperature went up.

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Content intended for mature audiences. If you experience nausea or diarrhea, stop reading and seek medical attention.

Located usually near Rochester, NY and sometimes central FL.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Aug/27/2017 at 5:03pm
I didn't find a Contour fan setup in my local Pull-A-Part. Several Contours, all four cylinder models with a single large fan similar to the Taurus fan. Have to have a V-6 model for the dual fans. Did find a similar setup in a V-6 Probe though. Looked like it just might work... but it won't! It uses two different fan sizes, one about 15", the other maybe 13". The bigger fan is 4.25" from front of shroud to back of motor. I only have 4" of clearance -- need something no more than 3.5" at the thickest point. Looks like I'm going to have to order another fan for the front. A little tighter on the driver's side, will probably go with an 8" instead of a 9". though I really hate to!!


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Aug/27/2017 at 5:20pm
Did some more research and find that the Contour fan is only 3.3-3.4" thick. I think I'm going to pursue that instead of adding another. Will just have to look some more. Have found new replacements for $85.95 + shipping, might have to go that way. I'm a little leery of aftermarket replacements though... might not be up to Ford specs.



Simplest wiring for two speed fans (use two temp sensors):



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Frank Swygert


Posted By: Ollie
Date Posted: Aug/27/2017 at 6:31pm
I am going to add AC to my 258 Concord some day. I have learned thru experience cooling with AC is a challenge. I learned on a 440 which is a hot running engine.

Frank you are on the right track in my opinion. Its all about fans !!! And I mean at least 2 fans. They have high dollar 2 and 3 speed fans out there also. Mopar-guy posted a link to a company just recently.

I would wire the low speed straight to the compressor. High speed to a temp sensor in the out flow hose of the radiator.

I agree with your statement about the pusher fan together with a puller fan. Puller is better. The combo did help you out so you know your issue is you need more air flow.

Having AMC Fun,
Ollie


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1966 American Convertible -- "The Rambler"..SOLD
1974 Postal Jeep -- "Rapid Delivery"...SOLD
1969 Rambler 220 post car--"Road Warrior"
1989 Jeep Comanche Pioneer, 4.0L, auto, 2wd


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/07/2017 at 6:37am
I scored a Contour fan set yesterday! I don't think they are any larger diameter than the fans I run now, but they probably pull more air anyway. I had a 16" aftermarket fan before I got the Taurus fan in my non-AC car -- the Taurus fan is about the same size and pulled a LOT more air. Will give that a try before going to another pusher fan. 

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Frank Swygert


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Sep/07/2017 at 7:55am
I have checked this thread a few times to see how things go, are going.

The only improvement from Taurus vs Contour is fitment. Having a shroud that covers and incloses the fin area without leaving gaps for free air to be pulled.

Multiple speed fans can be a bonus over single speed, but it's about cooling efficiency of the radiator. Small radiators need a bit extra CFM to force heat away. Unfortunately depending on surface area restriction of the fin openings, air flow may not come close to fans CFM capabilities.

Our Honda Accord has two single speed fans. Low speed for minor cool down and AC, and high speed for fully warmed up temperature stability.

In humid areas above 100°F while idling with AC on, radiator temps climb to very hot. Being that, a pusher fan may be required, or a higher CFM rated fan. Swapping the multi speed fan from the Taurus may help, but will require extra wiring if not already using such a setup.

Another option is thermostat. A lower rated one may help. 180 degrees would be a starter.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: 73hornut
Date Posted: Sep/18/2017 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

I scored a Contour fan set yesterday! I don't think they are any larger diameter than the fans I run now, but they probably pull more air anyway. I had a 16" aftermarket fan before I got the Taurus fan in my non-AC car -- the Taurus fan is about the same size and pulled a LOT more air. Will give that a try before going to another pusher fan. 
I just bought a new contour dual fan off ebay, to convert the Javelin, with 2spd motors. I would wire yours so they are on high/full spd when ac is on.


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71 Javelin
74 Gremlin
79 Spirit AMX
Rogue Valley Rumblers
Like Us on FB
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Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/19/2017 at 8:32am
What I'm planning to do is wire the low speed to turn on with AC and one temp controller, the high speed to come on with a second controller set about 10 degrees higher.

Are BOTH your fan motors three wire? Only one of mine has three wires, the other only two. That makes me think only one is a two speed. Came from a 1999 24 valve Contour.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Sep/19/2017 at 8:45am
Farna, they come with 1 low speed and the other is 2 speed.

If yours is pulled from a wrecker, there should be a resistor box mounted to the bottom corner near the two speed fan.

If new replacement you may need to order a F5RZ8L603AC resistor for controlling the two speed fan. If adding an extra 2 speed fan, one would have to make provisions to use another resistor box.

The 2 speed fan is a misnomer, it Is actually a high speed fan. The resistor controls a low speed via relay. Very simple to wire up as it runs a two wire connector, not a three.

There are some ebay fans that have the resistor installed, but half are sold without, even though one may be cheaper. The cost of the resistor is about $12.00

The connector is $10.00

The two speed relay is wired so that when no signal is sent to the switched input, the output is directly connected to the resistor, and operate in low speed. When a high signal is sent to the relay, the output is switched to 12v. I assume the resistor is tied high with the 12v used in switching with the fan's high speed connection.

Low speed fan should kick in with A/C enabled.

High / Low should be with engine temps ranges.

I am thinking of setting up dual temp switches. One set at normal operating temp.

Can use the signal to enable the 2 speed relay. When warm, relay is operational, and low speed is on constantly, until hot.

Then, the secondary adjustable switch (set at 195) to override by enabling high speed. Very simple no need to use a controller.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: 73hornut
Date Posted: Sep/19/2017 at 5:57pm
My new contour fans have 3 wires for each motor, like the tarus fan motor. It also has a new resistor.I also ordered 14mmx1.5 bungs to weld into the radiator so the switch will be in the rad tank, much like most factory installed.


-------------
71 Javelin
74 Gremlin
79 Spirit AMX
Rogue Valley Rumblers
Like Us on FB
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1602825606650796" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1602825606650796


Posted By: Mopar_guy
Date Posted: Sep/19/2017 at 6:09pm
I have mine both wired to high and I use this controller http://www.flex-a-lite.com/accessories/electric-fan-controllers/flex-a-lite-variable-speed-controller.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.flex-a-lite.com/accessories/electric-fan-controllers/flex-a-lite-variable-speed-controller.html on it. My trinary switch is wired to it so it knows to kick up the speed if the A/C is calling for fans. No big load on the electrical system when they come on either.


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" http://theamcforum.com/forum/hemilina_topic95889.html" rel="nofollow - Hemilina " My 1973, 5.7 Hemi swapped Javelin


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/20/2017 at 10:10am
So it seems there are two versions, one with two two speed fans and one with a two speed and a single speed. Will have to see how the single speed pulls. I may just bypass the resistor and run the one on high al the time, the other on low... or whatever speed it is. Would have preferred a pair of two speed fans though. Mine came from a 1999 model. Maybe later ones have the pair of two speed, or depends on options? I know mine was the 24 valve (four valve per cylinder V-6) model. Didn't get engine size.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Sep/20/2017 at 10:32am
Did some searching for you on some specifics.

Seems like many put the I4 dual fan setup in as 2.5 V6 in the specs. Looks the same but is not.

The only way to be sure is to pull one yourself or look specifically to its fitment.

The connector keeps it from being plug and play with an I4 if it is a 3 prong connector, and visa - versa.

So if looking at specifics, It should state 2.5L V6 from 2000 down. No I4 should be listed.


Now that I know better... I will keep that info on my list for when I make a purchase.

It will also need further contemplation on how to set the fans, as there are 4 options on operation.
Off, single low, dual low, low + high, and dual high.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker



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