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does not shut off

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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=88030
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 8:18pm
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Topic: does not shut off
Posted By: matty 401
Subject: does not shut off
Date Posted: Jun/18/2017 at 5:18pm
i have a 1972 Matador with a 401 and a crane conversion  on the ing and a accel super coil  and now for some reason it does not want to shut off with the key any idea where i can start looking 

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72 matador 401 the beast
79 concord 2 door
72 matador 304 grasshopper
68 Rogue 406
93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed




Replies:
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/18/2017 at 5:58pm
Assuming the ignition switch allows return to off, as I had my 73 ignition switch stick on once.

I would check how the ignition is wired up. You may have made a connection to turn on from fuse panel or a live feed, instead of the ignition switch.

I would with the solenoid S terminal disconnected, check the power connection at the ignition after a few rotations of start, on, off. To see if the power at the ignition does turn off with key. By checking the switch that way may release it being sticky or prove there may be a wire that is live like clock and brake from the fuse panel being sent to the ignition.

I would have wired up an automotive relay to control power to the ignition, using a tap from starter solenoid's I terminal, which should work just fine to activate the relay. Then a simple connection to the battery side of the starter solenoid to feed the relay output to the ignition. This way the 10 amp draw won't interfere with any other fuses and loads on your wiring. Very simple and should not cut or make mods to wiring. Just eye terminals of appropriate size and a nut for mounting the switched input to the relay at the I terminal. I don't think you are using the I terminal for ignition any way since using a box.



-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: addic
Date Posted: Jun/18/2017 at 7:17pm
I'm having the same issue with a 69 amx I just got running again ,that has a msd ignition,
   You have to put a diode that comes with the ignition on the orange wire from alt. otherwise it keeps feeding power to msd box ,but yours is different brand


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73 401 Pierre Cardin X P1
73 401 Pierre Cardin X F3     70 X 390 4spd
69 X 401 6 spd
69 AMX 401 auto BSO
73 AMX 401 4speed pc
73 vette 427sb 5spd
73 vette convt.?
08 zx14


Posted By: spiritdude
Date Posted: Jun/18/2017 at 7:58pm
matty401,
I don't have any experience with the Crane ignition setup, but it may behave like an MSD box. If this is true as addic says you will need to put a diode in between the field wire and the alternator.
spiritdude


Posted By: matty 401
Date Posted: Jun/18/2017 at 8:49pm
the crane system has been in the car for a long time just started acting up the other day  and it is not all the time just when ever it feels like it  lol i have wired a kill switch in it  just a ground wire to the neg side of the coil push the button and it shuts off 

-------------
72 matador 401 the beast
79 concord 2 door
72 matador 304 grasshopper
68 Rogue 406
93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed



Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Jun/19/2017 at 1:16am
If you have verified that it's not Dieseling (running on compression without the ignition actually firing), and that the ignition itself isn't shutting off, then it could very well be the starter relay is sticking. There is a contact inside that wires the ignition coil directly to the batter while the starter is engaged. Sometimes that contact sticks on and will supply the ignition with power and keep the engine running even though the ignition switch is turned off. 

It also burns out the ignition points and eventually the coil.

Whacking the starter relay with the butt of a screwdriver usually does the trick. 


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1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited


Posted By: matty 401
Date Posted: Jun/19/2017 at 7:02am
it is a new relay   just changed it out about 2 weeks ago i unplugged the i wire with it running and did nothing just kept running  and not dieseling can still throttle it   do it is very confusing  would using that kill button hurt anything ? 

-------------
72 matador 401 the beast
79 concord 2 door
72 matador 304 grasshopper
68 Rogue 406
93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed



Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/19/2017 at 7:41am
Originally posted by matty 401 matty 401 wrote:

it is a new relay   just changed it out about 2 weeks ago i unplugged the i wire with it running and did nothing just kept running  and not dieseling can still throttle it   do it is very confusing  would using that kill button hurt anything ? 


The I terminal probably is not used with having an ignition module. So removing it should not disable ignition, unless you customise the wiring to look stock. Then it may be used to deliver the ignition power to the coil.

I assume if a diode was used like from others stating to use one, it may have shorted out. Diodes work but given reverse bias current drain, after time and heat in environment, they end up breaking down at the unijunction, thus shorting and allowing current to flow in the reverse direction.

That is why i specifically gave info about adding a relay to control the ignition box using the I terminal, as the ignition feed should be carried over from the harness after the resistance wire. Unless that has been ripped out, then no ignition feed from the ignition switch is at the I terminal.

It is short and simple to do, and does not require a diode and is pretty much fail safe in keeping wiring intact and not taxing power elsewhere within the system.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: matty 401
Date Posted: Jun/19/2017 at 7:05pm
there was never a diode in the system not an msd ing either the crane unit has been in for years  it just does not want to shut off with the key  no wiring has been changed from install i bought a new ing switch  will try that tomorrow 

-------------
72 matador 401 the beast
79 concord 2 door
72 matador 304 grasshopper
68 Rogue 406
93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed



Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/19/2017 at 7:20pm
Not sure, I will look into my wiring charts for 71, which will be similar to 72 outside of the transmission controlled switch and a few emissions changes.

I think there is an internal diode to the engine harness to isolate current feedback. Assuming to keep the alternator from self exciting. Maybe it Is built in to the regulator but as with any diode (if that is the case) the failure is a 50/50 short.

Though I am assuming nothing is modified to the wiring, so what I may find should point to why the module is failing to turn off.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/19/2017 at 7:46pm
Ok, i looked over what may cause self excitation of the alternator. Here is a simple test. With engine off and key is off, disconnect the orange wire from the alternator. It Is your sensing wire for the bulb and regulator. Put tape around the connector to make sure nothing metal comes in contact for good measure. Turn the ignition key to accessory and then on, while looking at the charging light on the dash. Normally it should light up, but if it stays off, the positive rectified diode is shorted, thus allowing self excitation by not isolating field from battery. This can slowly drain the battery after sitting. Hopefully is Is not the case, but it would allow your engine to run.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: 401harry
Date Posted: Jun/19/2017 at 7:46pm
Sounds like an ignition switch to me but Is this a under the cap crane module on the stock distributor? I have had no luck with those conversion modules including a 72 I once owned maybe because i was using the stock resistance wire feed? For that car and my current 73 Matador I used the the anti dieseling solenoid wire for power to my DUI HEI on my 73 Matador which is the large yellow wire coming from the firewall and comes directly off the switch at a full 12 volts and never any problems and then switched to a Mallory Unilite and also no problems.  I have a Crane fireball ignition going in with the new 401 and will use the same power supply.


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/19/2017 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by 401harry 401harry wrote:

Sounds like an ignition switch to me but Is this a under the cap crane module on the stock distributor? I have had no luck with those conversion modules including a 72 I once owned maybe because i was using the stock resistance wire feed? For that car and my current 73 Matador I used the the anti dieseling solenoid wire for power to my DUI HEI on my 73 Matador which is the large yellow wire coming from the firewall and comes directly off the switch at a full 12 volts and never any problems and then switched to a Mallory Unilite and also no problems.  I have a Crane fireball ignition going in with the new 401 and will use the same power supply.


Yep, the igntion wire is the problem for most devices to control spark. There should not be any resistance on a voltage going to the electronic ignition module pf any type. Unless it is specifically stated in the directions that it is a dorect factory fit and does not require additonal wiring.

I also used the yellow wire from the anti - dieseling soleniod as well for my electric choke on a Holley.


Maybe I am stickler, but I would rather put the power lead to the electronic ignition coming off a relay controlled by the I terminal of the solenoid and secure the ignition wire from being used and out of the way. The relay can mount near the starter solenoid and be fairly clean with installing. I see no need for a kill switch with that setup unless you are racing all the time. To add a kill switch to the relay, just put it inline with the feed from the I terminal to activate the relay. The kill switch would be a momentary off switch or button.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: matty 401
Date Posted: Jun/21/2017 at 7:24am
this unit just attaches to the coil and it is the under cap style with a stock dist i am running a 94 amp single wire alt also 

-------------
72 matador 401 the beast
79 concord 2 door
72 matador 304 grasshopper
68 Rogue 406
93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed



Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/21/2017 at 9:18am
Originally posted by matty 401 matty 401 wrote:

this unit just attaches to the coil and it is the under cap style with a stock dist i am running a 94 amp single wire alt also 


You did say you obtained a new ignition switch, i assume you will be installing it soon? Hopefully that will be your issue.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: matty 401
Date Posted: Jun/21/2017 at 2:09pm
yes picked it up yesterday  been working in my garage  so maybe tomorrow 

-------------
72 matador 401 the beast
79 concord 2 door
72 matador 304 grasshopper
68 Rogue 406
93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed



Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jun/21/2017 at 4:09pm
Did not read entire thread.
When I put an MSD 6 Box and a UniLite Conversion in my stock Distributor, I also had a run-on after ignition was turned off.  Using the MSD instructions, I "cured" the problem by installing a Dual Ballast Resistor as shown in this diagram ( on a '69 AMX )  The single Ballast Resistor in the Diagram was to make it all work correctly with the Stock Tachometer.
x
x


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Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: matty 401
Date Posted: Jun/22/2017 at 6:37pm
got the new switch in  it shuts off so far  lol

-------------
72 matador 401 the beast
79 concord 2 door
72 matador 304 grasshopper
68 Rogue 406
93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed



Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/22/2017 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by matty 401 matty 401 wrote:

got the new switch in  it shuts off so far  lol


Well, considering how long you were able to run before the trouble, i can see why changing something you know had worked for something questionable, like the switch.

If your system was stock, i would have kept on the ignition switch being sticky. Well you may never see it happen again. One of them odd things, as usually they just go bad and not start or fail to connect power.

Great to see it working out for you.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: 401harry
Date Posted: Jun/22/2017 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by matty 401 matty 401 wrote:

got the new switch in  it shuts off so far  lol


One thing i remember is i had a problem in my Matador is that I replaced my original switch even though it was still good and noticed the new ones arent as high a quality as the old ones. Plus I had to get under and re tighten the tiny screws that hold it to the column cause the new one was tighter and would move the switch back over over time where I coudnt get the key position back to off.... I also had to cut a portion of the switch plate near the bottom to clear the brake light switch as it is tight on these cars. Must only be trouble because its a GM part I guess


Posted By: matty 401
Date Posted: Jun/22/2017 at 7:56pm
thinking about taking to the 1/8 mile drag strip by me  will find out about a 35-45 minute drive with 456 gears 

-------------
72 matador 401 the beast
79 concord 2 door
72 matador 304 grasshopper
68 Rogue 406
93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed



Posted By: 70 Donohue 390
Date Posted: Jun/22/2017 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by FSJunkie FSJunkie wrote:

 then it could very well be the starter relay is sticking. There is a contact inside that wires the ignition coil directly to the batter while the starter is engaged. Sometimes that contact sticks on and will supply the ignition with power and keep the engine running even though the ignition switch is turned off.Whacking the starter relay with the butt of a screwdriver usually does the trick. 


Had the same thing happen to my 70 AMX on the way to its first show. I just happened to be next to a mechanic and he swapped out the ign switch and it didn't cure it. Then we swapped out the starter relay and success. BTW running a Mallory Unilite with balast resistor and 100 Amp 1 wire alt with external exciter.



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67 Rogue 290 Convert

70 BBO 390 5 Speed Javelin-under construction


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/22/2017 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by 401harry 401harry wrote:


Originally posted by matty 401 matty 401 wrote:

got the new switch in  it shuts off so far  lol


One thing i remember is i had a problem in my Matador is that I replaced my original switch even though it was still good and noticed the new ones arent as high a quality as the old ones. Plus I had to get under and re tighten the tiny screws that hold it to the column cause the new one was tighter and would move the switch back over over time where I coudnt get the key position back to off.... I also had to cut a portion of the switch plate near the bottom to clear the brake light switch as it is tight on these cars. Must only be trouble because its a GM part I guess


Somewhere in my TSM, there is a procedure to set the ignition switch. There is a wee hole at the firewall end that you place a 1/8" drill bit In to set the adjustment before tightening down the switch. So start, on, accessory and off are in alignment with key function.

As for a loose switch, that is probably why it would not shut off, but there would be some power drain along with burning up alternator. Well any how that it's replaced, who knows.





-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: matty 401
Date Posted: Jun/24/2017 at 4:04pm
went to the races drove it down and back no problem  so i think that was the problem 

-------------
72 matador 401 the beast
79 concord 2 door
72 matador 304 grasshopper
68 Rogue 406
93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed



Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/24/2017 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by matty 401 matty 401 wrote:

went to the races drove it down and back no problem  so i think that was the problem 


Great to hear your troubles are done with on the ignition switch and shutdown.

-------------
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: matty 401
Date Posted: Jun/25/2017 at 9:55am
still have the kill button  just in case  lol

-------------
72 matador 401 the beast
79 concord 2 door
72 matador 304 grasshopper
68 Rogue 406
93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed



Posted By: rockAMX
Date Posted: Sep/20/2017 at 9:17pm
Did the MSD instructions specify what size of ballast resistors to use? I am doing the same thing with a Pertronix Ignitor module. The green wire from your Unilite module is black with Pertronix. It would be nice if I could order the ballast resistors and the MSD from Summit in the same order. Thanks for your help - and your clear diagram.

-------------
DWR
1968 AMX




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