1960 rambler classic 196 smokes on start up
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Forum Name: AMC 6 Cylinder Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made I-6 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
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Topic: 1960 rambler classic 196 smokes on start up
Posted By: 60ramblerclassic
Subject: 1960 rambler classic 196 smokes on start up
Date Posted: Apr/17/2017 at 12:46am
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Hey guys. I am pretty new to this, if you haven't guessed by the title. My wife and I have a 1960 rambler that we have owned for 7 years and just love it. Its always smoked a little blue cloud on the start up since we've had it. It was just a weekend cruiser and has just 75,000 miles on it. I have started to drive it a lot more. The engine leaks oil from the valve cover gasket and the timing chain gasket and seems to burn a little oil. I pulled the plugs and number 1 cyl plug was a lil dark but not to crazy. All the other plugs looked good. It runs great once its warmed up.
I haven't done a compression test. My question is, where do I start to fix the issue? Is it possible it is just valve seals? I need some help from people that know where to start and what to do next. I'm mechanically incline enough to fix it, but I need some advice on where to start.
Thanks!
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Replies:
Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Apr/17/2017 at 1:11am
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you're likely not gonna like the answer, but its time for a teardown and rebuild. if you have not yet, you absolutely must re-torque the cylinder head. if could the the source of the oily plug, if thats what it is.
when engines leak externally from all over its just age.
75,000 is nothing for a new car, but for that engine, its close to end of life. chances are, it was rebuilt once before. i personally have not seen a 195.6 ohv that wasnt rebuilt in its past. 75K miles, but half a century!
if its just a sunday driver, torque the head, check, gently, timing cover, pan bolts for looseness (overtightening will make it leak MORE) and it might just be fine as-is. the valve cover, get a new gasket, theyre still available, clean it up, adjust the valves when youre in there, and it wont leak.
while youre under the cover you can possibly stop a lot of rear of head valve cover leaks with a simple zero-cost fix. see http://195.6ohv.com/" rel="nofollow - http://195.6ohv.com/ "other minor fixes". cheap and easy!
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com
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Posted By: 60ramblerclassic
Date Posted: Apr/17/2017 at 3:43pm
Ball park, what is the cost of a full rebuild? Where do I get quality parts from?
Yeah it's a weekend town driver. I drive it a few days a week, but less than 5 miles a day. I always change and check the fluids. I know the engine is tired, but I only paid $600 buck for the old gal. I plan on fixing it up, my wife and I got hitched and used it in our wedding so it has sentimental value. I rebuilt a few engines in the past but it's been over a dozen years. I'm wondering if I could get by with a gasket change and a valve job etc etc. Thoughts?
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Posted By: 60ramblerclassic
Date Posted: Apr/18/2017 at 1:24am
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http://losangelesmachineshop.com/63-amc-rambler-196-3-2-remanufactured-engine/ They said $2400 for a rebuild. Thoughts?
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Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Apr/18/2017 at 6:49am
You can rebuild it yourself for a lot less. Bearings and rings are still pretty common in the oversize versions you will likely need. Valves are getting scarce but will last through two or three rebuilds so they might not be needed. Pistons in the common sizes are available from Kanters or Egge Machine. You will need to pay for machining.
I would do a compression test though and tighten/ refresh the gaskets like Tom says above if there is no indication of a blown head gasket and continue to baby the engine for a while if it is a local driver. Joe
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Happiness is making something out of nothing.
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Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Apr/18/2017 at 9:00am
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Mine got tired at 120,000 miles but it was 4 years newer than yours and that was a lot of years ago. Nonetheless I don't think your cylinder walls will be really worn out yet. I'd start with valve seals, maybe fill the crankcase with diesel fuel and idle it for about 20 minutes, or some people say use Marvel mystery oil in the crankcase, and follow all that with dribbling a can of water through the carb at fast idle. I think you will get the most gain from changing the valve seals.
At 120 they redid the head on mine by running some knurling device through the guides, reaming them and then doing a valve grind. It was 145000 miles before it had to be re-bored.
Somehow make sure you don't have the oil pickup screen getting plugged with broken valve seal material. I think you might be able to see that through the oil drain plug hole.
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Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Apr/18/2017 at 9:03am
If you have never really built up an engine it is a bit of a fools mission to try to rebuild it yourself. The price quoted for a rebuilt antiquated engine of $2400.00 is not out of line with reality. This location offers crate engines from about $1600 (SBC) to numbers in the $30,000 dolor category and it gets a full rebuild along with thorough cleaning.
http://www.findsimilar.com/search?q=crate+engines&cid=4146&vid=1&gclid=COjc_qSUrtMCFUlqfgodmCgKAw&gclsrc=aw.ds" rel="nofollow - Crate engines
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70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
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Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Apr/20/2017 at 6:44am
Pistons are rather high for these old engines compared to more current models -- about twice as much (around $60-65 each vs $35-40 for SBC or Jeep 4.0L replacement pistons). $2400 for a rebuild is a good price considering. If you really want to tackle it yourself, Kanter has full rebuild kits. Pull it apart and have a machine shop measure the bores before ordering pistons. I have a set of 0.040" over pistons though, PM if interested.
You can probably get by for quite a while with valve stem seals. The factory used umbrella seals, which leak some no matter what, but new umbrella seals are much better than old ones that have probably cracked up and fallen away. If you have it rebuilt have the tops of the valve guides machined for modern seals. Any machine shop should be able to do that.
The head on these things needs to be retorqued every 2-3 years or 10-12K miles. You don't have to back off all then follow the torque sequence. You can back off one bolt at a time and torque it back down to 62 ft/lbs and not worry about what order you tighten in.
Your valve cover gasket may have hardened over the years -- I'd get a new one. Then just snug it down, don't tighten the crap out of it! All that does is warp the valve cover, sometimes to the point it won't seal long even with a new gasket.
The leak from the timing chain cover is more likely the front seal. Not hard to pull the balancer and change just the seal, but may as well pull the timing cover and change the gasket and crank seal. Easier to change the seal with the cover off, and it's just a simple cover.
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Frank Swygert
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Posted By: andyleonard
Date Posted: Apr/20/2017 at 11:19am
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The last 2 196s I pulled down for excessive smoke both had truly rotten valve guides, not just the seals. I don't know if it's an iron guide problem but they - despite one of the motors being recently rebored with new pistons - had terrible valve/guide clearance. Compression check was excellent. Cutting the guides for teflon seals without removing the head might get you some time but give the valves a good shake when the springs are off and see what you're up against. Egge has guides for $2.
Re: leaky front seal. Don't forget you need to reinstall the balancer before the front cover is tightened up so the balancer and front cover/seal are centered. It seems people like to tighten up the front cover without using the balancer as a centering guide, then stick the balancer in and can't figure out why the seal won't last.
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Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Apr/20/2017 at 11:35am
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I agree with that. My guides were really worn at 120k miles. The word I was looking for earlier was broaching where they draw or push something through the guide and ream it back to standard. I don't know how good a fix that is.
With new guides do they have to drill the old ones out? I thought the original guides were all part of the head.
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Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Apr/21/2017 at 5:56am
I'm not sure the term "broaching" is correct, but there is a process they used to use that raised the surface area by making small indentations or cuts in the surface of the inside of the guide. The tool bit into the guide surface when turned, raising small metal dimples, then retracted when turned the opposite way. Then it was reamed to size. So you end up with no more than 50% of surface area than the original guide. Stands to reason it won't last but half as long, usually less than that, but back in the day it would last as long as the rest of the engine. Today it's just about the same to replace the guides, and I don't think anyone does that any more.
If you send the head to a shop to have it rebuilt (new guides and seas cut... and get those positive seals installed on top of hte guides!) have it checked for cracks and trueness (flatness) FIRST. Some shops will suggest that for an old head, some won't. Not much point in putting a lot of money in a badly cracked head. It will run just fine with a few fine cracks, at least until it's run hot again, but it would be time to start looking for a good head or contemplating a swap to a newer motor. The early 199/232 will bolt in without too much work, unless you have a 58-63 American. Engine bay just too short in those.
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Frank Swygert
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Posted By: amc67rogue
Date Posted: Apr/21/2017 at 9:34am
Knerling the guides . If the guides are really bad have them replaced.
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Keith Coggins 67Rogue X code
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Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Apr/21/2017 at 10:35am
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Yeah I remember knurling from high school where we used to put a pattern on thumbscrews or similar things in the lathe.
I agree that the head is probably ready for rework. It would be a relatively cheap fix and give the engine a few more years of good service. Having valve guides replaced would also eliminate the possibility of old ones disintegrating and clogging up the screen.
Another question; how big (wide) are new valve guides and are they already cut for the new seals?
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Posted By: andyleonard
Date Posted: Apr/21/2017 at 4:33pm
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No, the guides are removable at home with a valve guide drift and a hammer. New 196 OHV guides are $2 each from Egge and go in with the same tool you used to get the old ones out. Put the new guides in the freezer overnight to shrink them a little. Easy job. Then relap the valves to make sure everything's centered. Cutting the new (or old) guides for the little teflon seals is still a good idea. The original style rubber seals aren't worth much.
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Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Apr/21/2017 at 5:12pm
That's it!! Knurling!! But on the inside it's tougher to do than on the outside...
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Frank Swygert
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Posted By: amc67rogue
Date Posted: Apr/21/2017 at 7:38pm
Well if there removable with a drift punch as andyleonard says why bother with Knurling.
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Keith Coggins 67Rogue X code
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Posted By: 60ramblerclassic
Date Posted: May/29/2017 at 12:26pm
Ok well I've decided to have the engine, trans, torque tube, and rear end rebuilt. Pretty much full mechanical restoration.
It has developed a crazy vibration between 1,2nd gear. It started with a squeak at low speed. Then a vibrating at high speed, around 70moh. It used to be super smooth. It's nearly undriveable now. Sad.
It's always shifted hard from N to D2 and R. Does anyone have an idea of what the vibration could be? It's really rough. And at the same time, all the vibration goes away when driving, when I put it in neutral.
I'd like to diagnose it before I pull everything out.
I can post a video.
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Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: May/29/2017 at 4:08pm
I broke a crank in a Ford 223 and limped it home with a lot of vibration. It completely let go the next day. That is not likely to happen with a 196 because of its forged crank.
The flex plate coupling between the engine and torque converter could be ready to let go.
Maybe there is something wrong with the front pump in the transmission.
The u-joint at the front of the torque tube could be failing but you'd probably feel that when shifting between forward and reverse.
What ever it is it will probably become quite evident when you dismantle the components from each other.
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Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/30/2017 at 6:19am
You said the vibration goes away when in neutral. Is that with the car still moving?
The most likely culprit is the flex plate between the engine and torque converter. The originals are a hardened steel and develop cracks over time. It's a simple steel plate -- you can have one mode at a local machine shop. Many double a plain steel.
The torque tube on the six cylinder car rarely dives any trouble. The u-joint may be worn (there is only one in front), and the center bearing could go bad, but neither of those usually give any trouble. They are sealed inside the tube away from dust and dirt. I've pulled u-joints with over 100K miles that were tight as new, and never had a center bearing go bad. But both could. The shaft should pull out with the bearing from the front of the tube once it is off the car.
Could be an internal transmission issue. Yours should have a vacuum modulator and an electric kickdown. If the vacuum line was off or the modulator diaphragm bad that could lead to hard shifting. The vac modulator reduces pressure at high vacuum (low engine speeds). if it's not working that will cause hard shifts between N/P and any moving gear as internal pressure would be higher than it should be.
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Frank Swygert
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Posted By: 60ramblerclassic
Date Posted: May/30/2017 at 2:07pm
Thanks guys, I have two threads open.
Yes, the vibration stops (while driving) the moment you put the car in N. Lilly culprit seems to be the u-joint and bushing at the front of the torque tube. So I'm going to drop the t-bone and take a look!
It started with a squeak at low speed and now it's at a full shake. I first thought it was torque tube related because the shake feels like something out of balance. I had a 65 chevelle that I did a full drive train swap on that had a bad vibration at a certain speed and it turned out that the drive line was off balance and a u joint was going out, it reminds me of that feeling.....just worse.
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Posted By: CornFed Rebel
Date Posted: Jun/11/2017 at 10:27pm
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My 1969 232 is having a similar issue, but it only blows a white-ish/grey cloud of smoke if I pump the accelerator once before starting to set the choke. It runs great otherwise, with no smoke whatsoever. It doesn't use any oil or antifreeze. If I don't pump the accelerator to set the choke before starting, it doesn't blow smoke. Is this something I need to be concerned about?
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Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/12/2017 at 6:34am
Not really. It's running rich for a second or so from the extra fuel squirted in when you pump it. Just once to the floor to set the choke and it should start right up. And a little puff of smoke won't hurt -- is normal really. Black smoke would indicate oil burning.
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Frank Swygert
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Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Jun/16/2017 at 10:16pm
it's possible that at that age, there's a bit of oil seeping down the valve stems while it sits, which burns off when it starts. at 75,000 miles and however many years it's been, that would be completely normal. in a 20xx car that would be a problem, but in old design engines having a bit of oil in the guides is not a bad thing. if this is the case it's nothing needing fixing or attention.
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com
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