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Putting 80s 258 2 barrel intake on 76 engine - wha

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Topic: Putting 80s 258 2 barrel intake on 76 engine - wha
Posted By: mantonas
Subject: Putting 80s 258 2 barrel intake on 76 engine - wha
Date Posted: Jul/09/2016 at 11:25pm
I am trying to convert the 258 cubic inch  http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00T84FBUS" rel="nofollow - - six  on my 1976 Pacer from one barrel to two barrel carburetion. I bought a two barrel intake on eBay. The part number is EF3237858. According to a different eBay listing (take this information with a grain of salt), here are the vehicles that EF3237858 was used on:

INTAKE MANIFOLD 258 4.2L EF3237858

CHEROKEE 81-83 6-258 (4.2L)
CJ-SERIES 81-86 6-258 (4.2L)
CONCORD 81-82 6-258 (4.2L)
CONCORD 83
EAGLE 81-84 6-258 (4.2L)
EAGLE 85-88
http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&index=automotive&keywords=grand%2Bwagoneer&linkCode=ur2" rel="nofollow - - WAGONEER  84-86 6-258 (4.2L)
J-SERIES TRUCK 82-87 6-258 (4.2L)
SPIRIT (AMC) 81-82 6-258 (4.2L)
SPIRIT (AMC) 83
WAGONEER 81-83 6-258 (4.2L)

This manifold has EGR, which I plan to block off, since my 76 engine doesn't have it (plus I live in Tennessee). It also has numerous vacuum fittings and sending units, which I will probably remove and plug. However, the most interesting and puzzling thing about it is that it has a  http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TPLM5U" rel="nofollow - - jacket  for engine coolant. My 76 one  http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000VU2K1Q" rel="nofollow - - manifold  has nothing of the sort. I guess I could just not use the  http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TPLM5U" rel="nofollow - - jacket  and leave it open to atmosphere, or plug those ports too. 

What was the purpose of this, to accelerate heating up the interior of the car on cold days, or to provide some heat transfer away from the intake and exhaust manifolds? Is it a good idea to incorporate this water jacket into the heater hose routing? Would anything bad happen if I just plug these? Does the presence of this water jacket have anything to do with the fact that this manifold is aluminum, versus cast iron for the one barrel I have that doesn't have them? Also, the two barrel manifold has one of those electric fuel warmers below where the carb mounts that looks like a bunch of pins sticking up. Should I use that? Does it have anything to do with why there's a water jacket in the manifold?

Thanks all. 


-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer



Replies:
Posted By: Pdok
Date Posted: Jul/10/2016 at 7:56am
The water part is good to use. The heated part is good too but may not matter depending on climate where you are. On a jeep the heated plate reads oil pressure to determine if the motor is running and I believe also coolant temp. It will turn off if the motor stops or coolant is hot enough. I never used mine on my 76 and our team great even in the cold.

You know you're going to have to change exhaust manifolds right?

I used epoxy to block egr on mine.

-------------
76 Grem X 258/904,4.0 head/MPFI, Comp X250H cam, Hughes springs, Clifford header, serpentine swap.


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jul/10/2016 at 8:10am
I didn't know that I would need to change exhaust manifolds. I'm glad I posted this question. I need to replace the mainfold gasket because there's an exhaust leak, so I thought since I had the intake manifold off anyway it would be a freebie to install this manifold. Sounds like I was wrong. Thanks for setting me straight.

Assuming I got a matching exhaust manifold and did the swap, what would be the recommended routing of heater hoses for this manifold? Would I just interrupt the hose that comes out of the thermostat housing?


-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jul/10/2016 at 8:51am
Go from the feed to the heater (block connection) to the front of the intake, then from the rear of the intake to the heater core. Return line from heater core goes straight to the water pump.

You don't have to use it, but the heat helps a lot with cold weather driving and helps economy by vaporizing the fuel better. Drag racers do the opposite -- they want a cool intake to improve fuel density and power -- can get a bit more air/fuel in. For a normally driven street car better vaporization of the fuel is more important for economy than 2-3 more hp.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Pdok
Date Posted: Jul/10/2016 at 12:23pm
Exhaust from any 258 of that vintage as your intake should work. I'm assuming your 76 was stock with the bolted connection between intake and exhaust. You might have to mess with linkage and exhaust pipe too.

The water passages help with restarts when intake has cooled but water is still warm. The heat plate helps for cold starts. I had no real problems starting mine at 20 degrees F with no heat plate. Had to wait a couple minutes and not floor it at first of course.

-------------
76 Grem X 258/904,4.0 head/MPFI, Comp X250H cam, Hughes springs, Clifford header, serpentine swap.


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jul/11/2016 at 6:34am
My exhaust system is shot anyway so no problem if it needs to be modified.

Seems to me that there would be some loss of rigidity or structural integrity to the manifolds if they are not bolted together. Having them hanging off the side of the block individually seems like it would cause them to move up and down more easily. Did the factory cars with the later 258s that used independent manifolds (like the 2 barrel one I am trying to install) come with some kind of support bracket or brackets? If so, could I grab it off a Jeep with a 4.0 from the junkyard?



-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Jul/11/2016 at 8:49am
Originally posted by mantonas mantonas wrote:

Seems to me that there would be some loss of rigidity or structural integrity to the manifolds if they are not bolted together.


The exhaust and intake manifolds on your engine were bolted together because the bottom of the intake manifold was the top of the exhaust manifold where the heat from the exhaust was used to heat the intake. Structural rigidity had nothing to do with it. They later manifolds will stay in place just fine!

The later manifolds just used heat from the cooling system of the car rather than exhaust heat to do the same thing.

-------------
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Jul/18/2016 at 12:52am
258 1bbl was rated at 110hp.
258 2bbl was rated at 115-120hp.

We're talking the difference between 175 CFM and 195 CFM. You're also going from a really simple carburetor (YF) to a more complex and notorious for trouble carburetor (BBD). Is it really worth it for 5-10 horsepower? Your air conditioning or power steering pull that much power.

Plus you should change the exhaust manifold with it and should find a way to wire up the 2bbl intake's electric manifold heater and water heating apparatus because unlike the 1bbl intake that has a built-in heat stove, those are the 2bbl intake's only methods of improved fuel vaporization for cold weather.





-------------
1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited


Posted By: DaemonForce
Date Posted: Jul/18/2016 at 2:37am
I have NO idea what you're going on about. The stock 258 intakes I've seen all have some electric heating pot on the bottom and utilize coolant passages that run through the intake casting. I've never had much trouble with the Carter other than the stepper motor. I eventually scrapped most of it to partially rebuild and swap in a straight downdraft model. The amount of work I did to make it work was a bit more engineering than I care for. Use a Motorcraft 2100.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jul/18/2016 at 6:02am
I'm assuming you're talking about FSJunkie's comments, DF. The "electric heating pot" is what he's talking about. It helps speed warm-ups. As long as you don't mind babying the car a bit for the first 10-15 minutes of driving you're okay without it. I'd use the water passage anyway.

I agree -- the BBD can be a PITA. Most of the non-computer ones are old and can be worn to the point a simple rebuild isn't enough. The computer models need everything else to be working correctly if the stepper motor still works. I'd recommend a Motorcraft 2100 also, or some newer model like the popular Weber conversion.

FSJunkie did point out that a 2V carb isn't going to do a whole lot by itself though. 10-15 hp is about it -- 20 if you're lucky. What the AMC six really needs is a better cam to support a bigger carb. Isky 256 Supercam is one of the better ones, or a Comp 260H.  Comp Xtreme cams aren't really intended for street vehicles.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: DaemonForce
Date Posted: Jul/18/2016 at 6:39am
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

FSJunkie did point out that a 2V carb isn't going to do a whole lot by itself though. 10-15 hp is about it -- 20 if you're lucky. What the AMC six really needs is a better cam to support a bigger carb. Isky 256 Supercam is one of the better ones, or a Comp 260H.  Comp Xtreme cams aren't really intended for street vehicles.

I try piecing figures like that together and think the Comp 252H would be closer to ideal. I can't weigh in on the ISky specs but they look way off. I'm also not interested in the 258 anymore. I tossed it aside for the stroker and chose Crower 44243. The stock 258 cam is junk and the stock 232 cam looks worse. The 4L displacement is smaller but the head breathes better and benefits from a dual pattern cam so I wanted to avoid a return to those older generation specs and that's what ultimately made me decide. Still, tall gears, a manual swap and a 42ci displacement increase have me wondering if I made the right choice. I won't know until it's all functional again. Getting to that point has been a constant uphill battle like the emissions equipment on that stock 258. At least they spared me the smog pump.


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Jul/18/2016 at 7:30am
I've run the 258 for the last 15 years on 2 different 1980 Spirits with the bbd carburetor and frankly if you have any skill at all in rebuilding carburetors the BBD works quite well. If it is a simple decision of using available parts then there is nothing wrong with them other than one thing, at 193CFM it is way too small to satisfactorily develop the HP that an engine the size of the 258 can develop.
But even that said mine with an Isky 256 cam developed 110HP at the rear wheels, dyno measured.
As to Isky specs, it is a company that has been around for a long time as has the cam and their specs are what they are and haven't changed since I have been using them. But the key is you need to be good with working with Carburetors, something that has become a lost art. And if you aren't good with a carburetor you should not be messing with any of them.
As to emissions, AMC did no one any favors as to how they are covered in their manuals, it takes a bit of work to make them correct after all the years and the ill contrived modifications the inept have made to them to "improve" how they work.
Both my 258's have been or are factory correct as to emissions and run fine. The BBD's reputation has been largely tarnished by the fact it has been on an engine with about 22 feet of vacuum lines running assorted and poorly documented directions.
I have no use for the largely used motocraft 2bbl carburetor, it is a lot of work and expense to get something that is not that much larger. If I am going to change the carburetor on a 258 I go straight to a Carter 400 CFM AFB or an Edelbrock 500 CFM AFB and make good use of a cam change. Yes the motocraft carburetor is simpler than a BBD but not much larger. At least not much to make it worth the effort of getting one on the engine.
And if simplicity is what you want because a BBD needs some skill working with Carburetors and you have the money and the parts FI is available. But for pure BOLT ON updating, a BBD is a Cheap 15 HP.


-------------
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Aug/01/2016 at 8:26am
Interesting discussion. I bought a BBD on eBay to use for this conversion. It's in good enough shape that I plan to try and use it without rebuilding it. Unfortunately it has a stepper motor but I've been researching how to deal with that and I think I can make it work.

The biggest challenge is the throttle linkage. The two barrel intake came with a complete linkage setup, but it is absolutely nothing like my factory setup. Since I'm removing the EGR valve, my plan was to fabricate a bracket and use the EGR valve attachment bolts to locate my original linkage as close as possible to the factory location, so I can reattach my throttle cable and transmission kickdown lever in their original location. Then I will work on getting the carburetor linkage to work.

FYI, after I started this job, I thought that the problem I was having with stalling out could be due to rust in the tank clogging up the fuel pickup, so I dropped the tank. Turns out the top is rusted out and has at least a dozen pinholes. It's tucked right up against the underside of the spare tire well, and the bottom of the well is so rusted it's almost not there, so this probably initiated the rust on the tank. I pulled out the sending unit and sure enough the sock filter was totally clogged with what looked like red clay but was probably rust. Luckily I have a storage unit full of Pacer parts that I bought from a guy in Cincinnati last summer that included two good gas tanks. I have a friend who welds that is going to repair the spare tire well and then I will replace the tank.

-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Aug/01/2016 at 8:33am
One thing I forgot to mention is that the discussion in this forum is making me wonder whether I should just stick with the one barrel. I really had no plans to do this; originally I wanted to do as little as possible with the engine then someday drop in a complete 4.0 from a 90s Cherokee or Grand Cherokee. Somehow I ended up doing this two barrel conversion. If I have to put in a cam to really reap the benefits of a bigger carb, why bother? The bad thing is, to reuse my existing manifolds I need to get a machine shop to remove the nuts and bolts that connect the intake and exhaust manifolds together, since they are seized. And I will have to rebuild the YF, but it looks like it might be the world's simplest carburetor so that shouldn't be a big deal.

-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Aug/01/2016 at 5:11pm
You can make a stepper motor BBD work IF the stepper motor still works. Search "Nutter Bypass". That is a method of bypassing the carb control circuits, discovered by a guy with the last name Nutter. But it only works if the system is sort of working to begin with. The stepper motors go to an intermediate position when powered and the motor not running, IIRC. The you unplug them and they stay there, computer can't adjust. It makes the carb sort of work, but you can't make fine adjustments.

My advice -- ditch the electronic BBD for an older model. Better yet, get a Motorcraft 2100 with 1.01, 1.02, 1.08, or 1.14 venturi size (240, 245, 287, 300 cfm, respectively -- the AMC BBD is around 195-200 cfm). The BBD used on late 70s Chrysler 318s (Aspen/Volare) were 220 cfm. Many have taken the Chrysler float section and used it on the AMC butterfly base to create a 220 CFM AMC carb. The butterflies are the same size, just the venturii in the float section are smaller on the AMC carb.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Aug/03/2016 at 8:01pm
I bought a beautiful, clean, apparently brand new Motorcraft 2100 or 2150 carburetor on eBay for 15 bucks a little while ago. It has an aluminum tag with what appears to be a simplified version of the AMC logo on it, consisting of a triangle on the left and a rectangle on the right with a space between them, and below those symbols "4RHA2." There is also a sticker on a heat shield plate in front of the choke coil with a sticker on it that also has "4RHA2" on it, with "5 10 86" above it (looks like a date) and "E4FE AA" below it. I was going to go with this first but then I decided I didn't want to mess with the adapter plate and the linkage setup. But now that I'm going to have a project centered around making linkages work, why not go with it.

It also has "121" stamped into the side of the float body on the same side as the throttle lever. Is this carb too big for my 258? 


-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: Pdok
Date Posted: Aug/03/2016 at 8:44pm
It will probably work fairly well. Depends on what jets it has if you are trying to really dial it in. The MC 2100 is really adaptable though. Make sure you can get lean drop ok without excessive mixture screw out. If you can get good idle and no stumble at launch you're probably good enough all the way up.

It's a little big for a stock 6. Probably came off a v8 application.

-------------
76 Grem X 258/904,4.0 head/MPFI, Comp X250H cam, Hughes springs, Clifford header, serpentine swap.


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Aug/04/2016 at 2:56am
The engine's volumetric efficiency is a measurable value and with a correctly matched carburetor you will receive the best performance possible out of your engine. The formula for calculating how much CFM (cubic feet per minute) an engine requires is: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency รท 3456.

The formula depends on a reasonable estimate of an rpm that would be achievable and volumetric efficiency which for the most part is a guesstament and can be ignored.
A tachometer is a fair enough tool to determine rpm, lacking that 4500 or 5000 rpm is a reasonable estimate of what rpm might be seen.
Plugging those numbers back into the equation you get:
(258 X 5000)/3456 = 373.4 CFM
Considering that a Carter BBD carburetor is 193 CFM and a Carter YF is generally considered to be about 175 CFM
The rpm range for those carburetors can be calculated to be
2582rpm for the bbd and 2345rpm for the Yf it bgins to get a little understandable why those engines fall flat at a very low rpm.
The formula does not take into account the number of cylinders or whether it is modified or not.
So no, the MC2100 does not come anywhere near too big.
When I build an I6 engine for the street I will generally by pass any 2bbl carburetor at all although you can get up to 500 cfm in a Holly and go straight for a Carter 400 CFM AFB and lacking the ability to find one an Edelbrock 500 CFM AFB.
A Small four barrel which will run on the primaries most of the time has better throttle response at lower rpms than the same size 2bbl carburetor.
In general, the AMC I-6 engine is both under carbureted and for the most part the cam can be considered very weak also. They are configured to give the illusion of performance in city traffic at best.
How does this compare to a generally accepted V8 engine
A 304 is happy with something around 440 CFM, a 360 with something about 500 CFM and a 401 with something about 580 CFM carb.
Rpm expected to be seen as part of the equation will affect selection as will available carburetor size.
Often you will see a 600 or 650 used for the 300 and 350 Cub in sized engines and 700 or 750 CFM carbs used on 390's and 401's
I use a 625 CFM AFB on my 390 and will probably use the same carburetor on a 360.
At certain levels of performance the efficiency of the intake system becomes important but for the most part it can be ignored as not applicable.
In general a V8 engine is out fitted with a carburetor larger than the math indicates is optimum and it makes no sense that an I6 engine be treated any different if for no other reason than it limits the potential that might be utilized in time

-------------
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Aug/05/2016 at 7:56pm
"121" means it has 1.21" venturii. It's a 350 cfm carb, which shouldn't be too much for a good 258. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Aug/06/2016 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by mantonas mantonas wrote:

One thing I forgot to mention is that the discussion in this forum is making me wonder whether I should just stick with the one barrel. I really had no plans to do this; originally I wanted to do as little as possible with the engine then someday drop in a complete 4.0 from a 90s Cherokee or Grand Cherokee. Somehow I ended up doing this two barrel conversion. If I have to put in a cam to really reap the benefits of a bigger carb, why bother? The bad thing is, to reuse my existing manifolds I need to get a machine shop to remove the nuts and bolts that connect the intake and exhaust manifolds together, since they are seized. And I will have to rebuild the YF, but it looks like it might be the world's simplest carburetor so that shouldn't be a big deal.

While I am an advocate of by passing the use of going through the expense and bother of using one of the autolite 2bbls off of an AMC V8 to replace the OEM carburetors either the single barrel Carter YF or the BBD Carter 2bbl for no other reason then the benefit received is not worth the value expended to do so in my opinion. They too are also undersized for the size of the engine so why bother. If you are satisfied with the performance you are getting there is nothing wrong with tuning what you have and calling it good to go.
I have had excellent luck with the BBD Carter 2bbl carb and the YF works well too. Neither of them are particularly difficult to tune and use. The BBD Carter 2bbl is tricky to rebuild, but by taking your time and following instructions they come out o.k., too.

As to the bolts and such sized holding the manifold together, heat applied to them has generally cause them to break free. A typical hand held propane torch has been adequate for me anyway as a supplier of heat. Once hot soaking things down with WD-40 has aided in disassembly. However that can be very smoky. An Alternative to WD-40 and similar products is bee's Wax, usually purchased in a small brown cube or some shape and held where you wanted it to be to cause it to melt.
The advantage? It is below the temperature that causes bee's wax to melt so no smoke. It doesn't hurt either to rap things with a small ball peen hammer which encourages things to break free. "Rap" not BEAT which encourages things bend and break. When you install the later intake manifold you will also want to use the exhaust manifold too.

A tip if you are going to re-install the OEM intake and exhaust. Hopefully you will be following the instructions in the TSM to do so, but remember the bolts and such that hold the two pieces together, do not tighten them very tight initially. When installed on the engine you want the two pieces to "center" themselves in the cylinder head and then tighten the mounting hardware that holds the two manifolds together. Done that way the potential of having a gasket blow out are minimized.



-------------
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: amcfool1
Date Posted: Aug/06/2016 at 7:46pm
Hi, I just did what the OP is considering, on a 77 Hornet AMX, not a Pacer, but the idea is the same. I put in "late' model AMC intake/exhaust manifolds (from an 82 Eagle) onto the 77 258, which of course had the "joined" cast iron ones. Both were/are 2bbl. This is why:
1) original exhaust manifold had a BAD exhaust leak, blown out gasket, so had to come out anyway.
2) original manifolds were rather ugly, nothing but rust colour, so would have to be refinished, blasted/painted, etc,  and one stripped out thread for exhaust pipe stud to be repaired.
3) Weight, not in the "performance" sense, but lifting those two joined cast iron monsters out of the engine bay was a piece of work! (I'm not getting any younger!). Much easier installing/dealing with separate manifolds, and the aluminum intake is light as a feather!
4)Exhaust is in the same location, no more donut gasket to deal with.
5)Aluminum intake has three threaded ports for CTO, or aftermarket temp gauges or whatever. Options!
6)better flowing (I'm told) exhaust manifold, hey, 2 or 3 hp is nothing to sneeze at!
7)still an all AMC setup, best they had for the 258.
8) Looks good! Runs good! Bolts up! Is life good or what!

ok, still with me? Couple of things to watch out for:
1)Power steering bracket from the cast iron manifold will need to be modified, or better yet get the one from the aluminum manifold motors. The original will NOT work as is.
2)Throttle mounting bracket is VERY different, again, get the one from the alum. motors.
3)Choke will have to be switched to electric, or to stay old school, get an aftermarket heat choke kit, which I did. Yes!, still available out there.
4)Carb throttle rod may need to be replaced, again, with the late model one.
5)heat stove from the cast iron exhaust manifold will not work on the divorced manifold, and is probably rusted to heck anyway. This was, for me, the hardest piece to find, a good condition 81+ heat stove, but I did! ( I know, Uncljohn, you don't need these, but i do! :)

So, you see, a "simple" bolt on can have it's challenges. Mr mantonas, good luck, another option not discussed here, is to replace the old 1bbl cast iron manifold with a cast iron 2bbl manifold, which would take most of the above issues out of the picture.
Or, rebuild the YF, and motor on into the sunset!
good luck, gz


-------------
george z


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Aug/06/2016 at 10:06pm
[QUOTE)
This was, for me, the hardest piece to find, a good condition 81+ heat stove, but I did! ( I know, Uncljohn, you don't need these, but i do! [/QUOTE]

Yup, you are right, I don't need one of those. But to be honest by in large my engine modifications both I-6 and V8 were on cars driven when the weather was nice, by in large? Any time it was above freezing (32 F)
But in stalling and intake on a V8 that blocks off the exhaust cross over is the same as installing an intake on an I-6 the eliminates that too.
Granted and it has to be recognized. If the weather is a bit on the cool side both types of engines can become a cold blooded suckers until the warm up.
I was not aware of the power steering bracket problem and as to carburetor linkage with and with out involving transmission linkage is resolved by using cable operated accelerator linkage along with the same for automatic transmissions. The automatic transmission linkage from an AMC car that used that linkage can be salvaged from Jeep Cherokee's that still used the 258 and the 998 or 904 and I think early 4.0 engine applications. Maybe even later I have lost track of them. Or purchasing from LOKAR .

-------------
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: amcfool1
Date Posted: Aug/07/2016 at 2:20pm
yes, sir, anything is doable, point being, for the OP. that even a "simple" bolt on part, has issues that need to be addressed. There is no free lunch. One needs to do some homework before diving in to reengineer a car. I am by no means an expert, such as you or Mr. Farna, but I have been around long enough, and seen enough cars, mostly AMCs, that have been "improved" to the point of undrivability. Hey, they're ALL bulletproof if they never leave the shop!
Again, just trying to make the OP aware of what is involved. Imo, he would be better of just rebuilding his YF, kit is about $25., and have no fabrication issues or real down time on the car.
Having said that, a Pacer was/is a heavy car, and any kind of power gain is a good thing.
thank you, gz


-------------
george z


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jun/03/2017 at 5:26pm
Believe it or not I'm still not done with this. I stopped working on it for most of the winter and then had to fix a problem I had (which I caused) with the motor mounts. I finally got that straightened out and just began piddling around with the manifolds again a few weeks ago. 

That damn power steering bracket issue has jumped up and bit me in the rear end but good. The rear bracket would not clear the newer style exhaust manifold. I found one on eBay that looked like it would clear, and I bought it for a painfully high amount of money, and it did clear. Unfortunately, it does not let the pump rotate the way it needs to in order to loosen and tighten the belt. I'm stumped now. I'm seriously considering going back to the one barrel setup and maybe selling all this two barrel stuff.

The problem is I think my original manifolds are unusable. Poking around on eBay it looks like I can get a brand new exhaust manifold and a good used intake, but they're not cheap. I am so sick of messing with this though I just might do it. I know this car is not going to ever be a performance machine, but by god I just want to drive it one day!

The only thing that's nagging me is that I might just be one bracket away from getting this to work; the aluminum two-piece bracket that fits around the pump itself; maybe there's one that will work. Does anyone know if this is true?


-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/04/2017 at 9:24am
You just about have to use the late model parts with the late model intake. The late model timing cover can even be adapted, but it uses several enlarged holes for larger studs to mount accessories. You might have to drill one or more holes larger and tap for the larger stud to use the late model PS bracket. I would do that on the original to your motor timing cover if possible rather than try to adapt a 74+. 74 is when the timing cover and accessory mounts changed. Brackets changed again with the mid 80+ aluminum intake (as you have discovered!). The PS bracket for that intake should work, but you may have some alignment issues.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: amcfool1
Date Posted: Jun/04/2017 at 9:38am
hey, don't give up, nothing but a thing! if you want an old school CAST IRON 2bbl manifold set, I got one here in Roanoke, VA, free, just come and get it, of a 77 Hornet. thanks, gz

-------------
george z


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jun/05/2017 at 12:05pm
That is very generous of you! I just may take you up on it. Man, I just drove past Roanoke TWICE last weekend, isn't that how life works!.

-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jun/06/2017 at 6:10pm
So I spent a lot of time looking at underhood photos of 80s AMCs and Jeep CJs, and doing searches on eBay, and I think I found the bracket I need. It's the rear aluminum bracket that connects directly to the power steering pump. It's hard to explain, but the curved slot that allows the pump to rotate so as to loosen or tighten the belt has been "clearanced" to give it room to swing. This is necessary because the steel bracket that it attaches to (which I already purchased) has a different shape to clear the newer style exhaust manifold. On this bracket, the point where the through bolt that is the axis of rotation of the pump connects to it is really close to the edge, so the other swinging bracket needs clearance.

I don't know if this is going to work, but I'm going to put in some eBay links to help explain this. 

Here is a link to a bracket on eBay that I think is the one that I need. Notice the way the grooved slot on the left side has a scalloped upper surface:

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/bYcAAOSwTA9X6yNH/s-l1600.jpg

Now here is one that I think is like the one I have. Notice the fully built-up edge of the slot on the bottom left of the middle photo:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/192163065920

Here are a few complete pump assemblies on eBay with all brackets where if you look at the photos you can see the clearance and how it works:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-cj-wrangler-PS-pump-and-Brackets-amc-258-cu-in-4-2L-76-91-/182574254239?hash=item2a8246089f:g:IHgAAOSwhvFZGNKk&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/401331002589

http://www.ebay.com/itm/112421032182

So I think I have this solved. What I would really like to do is get a part number for this bracket so I can do some more thorough searches for purchasing this part. I think $75 for a bracket or $175 (or more) for a used power steering pump assembly is a little steep; there's gotta be some of these sitting around in a junk yard or somebody's garage. How do I get access to a parts manual for an 80s AMC or Jeep CJ?







-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jun/17/2017 at 2:27pm
Okay, so I just went ahead and bought the bracket on eBay and now everything fits fine!!

I bolted down my 80s BBD 2 barrel carb that I bought on eBay for about 30 bucks, hooked up the fuel line to a gas can, and started it up, and it ran great! I still need to work on the throttle bracket, and I won't know for sure until I put it under load by actually driving it, but it seems as thought the stepper motor might have been left in a decent position for driveability. 

One issue I have is numerous exhaust leaks from all the plugs in the exhaust manifold for the EGR connection and air injection ports. Access is so limited I might have to temporarily remove the carburetor to get to them to retighten. Oh well.


-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/18/2017 at 10:04am
There used to be a tin foil like solder sold in auto parts stores. You wrapped it around an electric connection then heated with a lighter. I wonder if that would melt out if you used it like teflon tape on those screws, or seal? Only other thing I can think of is use some red (high temp) RTV on the threads. It's used on exhaust manifold gaskets with success... I've used it in place of a gasket and it didn't blow out even after several years of service. Was used on a six exhaust manifold that came from factory with no gasket, but had minor warping and small exhaust leak when reinstalled. High temp RTV cured it.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jun/18/2017 at 7:10pm


-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Jun/20/2017 at 12:25am
Permatex RED high temp silicone will seal exhausts. you can't fill holes, it will blow out! but as a sealer or gasket it's great. 1200 degree flame fronts, no! but 400F metal, fine. thread and small gap filler works. though i had my exhaust manifolds ground flat, i use a thin bead of read silicone on them as gasket.

i also wrapped my manifold and downpipe with fiberglass cloth strip i got from summit. wow, does that make overall underhood and cabin temps lower! i laced it up with stainless safety wire, and had a couple of minor loose spots i sealed with red silicone. (you can touch the manifold of the engine after a long hot run. its "hot" but not emergency room time :-)


-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jun/20/2017 at 7:12pm
Thanks, I still haven't finished tightening all the plugs; maybe I should take them all out and put some of that high temp RTV on the threads first.

Subject change: I bought one of those tiny 4" round air cleaners and the hood won't close. There's a spacer under the carb that came with it when I bought it on eBay. I assumed it was part of the factory configuration and needed to be there, either so the butterflies would clear the inside of the manifold or to help vaporize the fuel before it is forced to make an abrupt right angle turn. Even if neither of these is true, I would prefer to keep it because I think a spacer helps low end throttle response. However, if I don't absolutely need it, and I can close the hood if I remove it, I'm removing it. Can I get by without it?


-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: amcfool1
Date Posted: Jun/20/2017 at 10:43pm
the pacer used an offset air cleaner, your old one barrel air cleaner should work. that spacer is the phenolic insulator, keep it if possible. gz

-------------
george z


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Jun/20/2017 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by mantonas mantonas wrote:

 I would prefer to keep it because I think a spacer helps low end throttle response. However, if I don't absolutely need it, and I can close the hood if I remove it, I'm removing it. Can I get by without it?

it is very unlikely that a short, arbitrarily shaped spacer has any effect at all on air flow. while it's true intake runners can make a difference, it's not that simple. 

the 4" air cleaner might be too small for a 258 and restrict airflow at speed.



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jun/22/2017 at 8:22am
You know, I was about to post a reply that the factory air cleaner wouldn't fit because it slips down onto a stud sticking out of the top of the valve cover and it won't reach the carburetor, but then I remembered the stud is mounted in a sort of slotted clip, so I went and took a look at it and it appears that, since the slot is horizontal, I should be able to move the stud closer to the carburetor and use the factory air cleaner after all. This solves my problem.

P.S. I have a 4" round air cleaner for sale :)


-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: BenM
Date Posted: Jul/11/2017 at 1:59pm
I did the exact same thing on my '76 Pacer. I found a 2bbl air cleaner at a junkyard, the 1bbl air cleaner didn't fit right, but it was long enough ago I can't remember the exact issue. Unfortunately the junkyard is long gone, but they only had a couple of Pacers. Lots of Eagles sadly.

I wired up all the manifold electrics just like the 83+ TSM shows and it runs great in the winter. I could tell the difference when the electric heater relay died the winter before last. I used a Cherokee plastic heater valve to replace the Pacer's original so the coolant will continue to circulate like it's supposed to.


-------------
76 Pacer


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jul/29/2017 at 6:54pm
So I haven't posted in a while. I pretty much got all this stuff figured out. I ended up retaining the throttle linkage from the original manifold, primarily because I couldn't see how the transmission kickdown would work with the throttle linkage that came with the 80's era two barrel manifold. I fabricated a bracket that supported the throttle linkage and attached it to the manifold where the EGR valve is intended to go. My bracket also functions as an EGR blockoff plate. 

After I did that, the ball stud on the throttle lever of the BBD carburetor was not in anywhere near the right place for the rod attached to the throttle linkage to be able to pull it down. So I fabricated a right angle bracket out of some stainless steel I had lying around to move it from the side to the rear of the carburetor. 

Also, the original rod was not the right length and the connection to the ball stud was 90 degrees off where it should have been. So I used two of these and some threaded rod:

https://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/qa1-precision-products/product-line/qa1-throttle-linkage-quick-disconnect-couplers?autoview=SKU&ibanner=SREPD5

So after that, everything worked as far as the carburetor installation was concerned. 

Also, as it turned out, I had a factory 2 barrel air cleaner among the storage unit full of Pacer parts that I have that I bought from a guy a couple of years ago. It fit on the BBD 2 barrel perfectly!

So I am going to consider this task complete, after over a year of struggles. I have done a lot of other stuff on this car, and I will definitely be doing more, including an MC2100 carburetor installation at some point. When I do that, I may revive this thread, or start a new one, I don't know. But I really appreciate everyone's help, suggestions, and interest!






-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: amcfool1
Date Posted: Jul/29/2017 at 8:19pm
hey man, good for you, sounds like you got it running well. One last thing, when you are using the water heated/cooled intake, you need to change the heater control valve to the 81+ one, otherwise, the coolant doesn't flow., just hits a dead end at the valve until you turn on (open) the heater (valve). Not a big deal, but, it could be. good luck, gz

-------------
george z


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jul/29/2017 at 11:31pm
Wow, I'm sort of happy and unhappy at the same time. Happy because as big of a pain as this has been it's also been kind of a fun project and now it can continue. Unhappy because it doesn't look like it will be easy to find that heater valve for a non-astronomical price, and I have no idea how to route the heater hoses.

On a more serious note, this may end up solving a problem I have, which is that the engine doesn't run as well as I would like it to. I expected it to run a lot smoother, and it seems to be running really rich. I used a vacuum gauge and tried to optimize idle speed, rpm, and ignition timing, but even so it's a little disappointing. I figured it was the carburetor; it's a stepper motor version which I got cheap on ebay, and I just figured it was stuck in a rich setting. (FYI, I've also replaced the plugs with NGK iridiums, put on an MSD Blaster coil, and gotten rid of the Prestolite ignition by installing a 1978 distributor and a homemade GM HEI ignition box, so I really think it should be running better.) Maybe hot coolant coursing through the intake manifold is what I need.

So, once I get the heater valve, how do I run the heater hoses? It looks like it's got 4 connections.

-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: mantonas
Date Posted: Jul/30/2017 at 11:14am
I looked at some 80s AMC underhood photos on Google and it looks pretty straightforward: the valve connects to both hoses. Now I just have to shell out 90 bucks or so for the valve :(

-------------
1972 AMC Javelin SST
1973 AMC Ambassador 401
1975 AMC Pacer D/L
1976 AMC Pacer X
1976 AMC Matador sedan
1978 AMC Pacer V8 coupe
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer


Posted By: amcfool1
Date Posted: Jul/30/2017 at 1:01pm
 hi , you can also use the one from a 90s Jeep cherokee, looks different, plastic, but does the same thing, about $15..  may need to step down one or two hoses, no big deal. Four seasons #74777, good luck, gz

-------------
george z


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Aug/01/2017 at 6:07am
So you are using a stepper motor BBD carb without the computer? It can be done, but the stepper motor needles need to be extended all the way out. Remove the stepper motor from the back of the carburetor and fully extend the needles. Replace the stepper motor while being careful to not push the needles into the body of the stepper motor. This is from http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/electrical/jn-ignition99/" rel="nofollow - http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/electrical/jn-ignition99/ , which has some more info on ignition changes as well.


-------------
Frank Swygert



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