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Blower Motor Relay

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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: HVAC
Forum Description: air conditioning, heater and associated controls
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70566
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Topic: Blower Motor Relay
Posted By: CamJam
Subject: Blower Motor Relay
Date Posted: Jun/03/2015 at 7:21am
I see references made to a blower motor relay on a/c cars.  This seems to be separate from the resistor box mounted on the firewall above the blower motor.  Can anyone tell me where this mounts or perhaps share a photo of it? Thanks! 

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'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD




Replies:
Posted By: 401MATCOUPE
Date Posted: Jun/03/2015 at 7:24am
Cameron,

Blower Motor relays are only on later cars then yours. a 69 AMX/Javelin only has the resistor "cage". 68 cars had open resistors mounted below the blower motor with a pin style connector...it was a good change they made in 69!!

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Ross K. Peterson
68X,GoPac,343,AT,52A(1stCar)
68X,GoPac,390,4sp,52A
69X,GoPac,390,4sp,64A
70X,GoPac,390,4sp,87A,8
70X,GoPac,390,4sp,BBO,8
70 Jav SST,390,AT,BSO
74MatX,401,AT,Prototype
74MatX,401,AT


Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Jun/03/2015 at 10:10am
Thanks Ross! I was hoping it was for the later cars.  Looks like I might have everything I need lined up then. :-) 



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'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD



Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/03/2015 at 1:33pm
How good is your resistor as far as appearance, lack of rust or oxide, etc.?

They can be refurbished in SOME cases...... this one was really rough, the terminals oxidized, the shell starting to corrode.
The terminals here were replated with tin/zinc for good conductivity and corrosion protection and the shell was plated as well. It could be finished a more dull finish, or polished if someone wanted it OVER-done.






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Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Aug/03/2015 at 2:10pm
Mine cleaned up pretty easily with a wire brush.  Looks more or less like the one in your photo now.

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'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD



Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/03/2015 at 3:01pm
Good. Sometimes that is about all it takes. 

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Posted By: S Curry
Date Posted: Aug/03/2015 at 9:34pm
Anybody check the resistance value on the 2 resistors? I don't have one of these factory resistor pack on my 70, I have a couple of resistor sets that I think I can make a close copy. Just gotta to know the correct values for starts.  

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SC


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/03/2015 at 10:44pm
They are more current limiters, more like a ballast resistor. They heat up and the more load, the more heat and more resistance. You won't get much resistance at all using a VOM. What little "current" a vom would present would pass easily. 

You could measure voltage drop across the terminals with the fan running but it still won't be quite the same. You'd have to also watch the rated value of any resistor you were going to use. 
A wire-wound would fair better than a typical carbon resistor. There's going to be some amperage through it - and heat generated That's why these are wire and vented. 

The EEs here can tell me how right or wrong I am, or if I'm even close. 
(EE = electronic engineer)

These come up on eBay not all that infrequently and someone here is likely parting a Javelin or AMX that has one.


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Posted By: DoughertyAMX
Date Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

How good is your resistor as far as appearance, lack of rust or oxide, etc.?

They can be refurbished in SOME cases...... this one was really rough, the terminals oxidized, the shell starting to corrode.
The terminals here were replated with tin/zinc for good conductivity and corrosion protection and the shell was plated as well. It could be finished a more dull finish, or polished if someone wanted it OVER-done.





Getting ready to apply some elbow grease to my blower resistor.  Any secrets on what to use, or just elbow grease, scotch brite pad, and all purpose cleaner? Figure I would clear the housing when done.


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 5:16pm
If you are looking at late blower resistors for 71 to 74 Javelins, thry are robust. All you need to do is clean them good. I have my original and the original owner replaced the blower motor before I bought the car. So them resistors will outlast a blower motor or two.

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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 7:16pm
The style shown, 1970, often has an issue with oxidation and then downright rust. It's not the resistors inside that protective housing, it's the housing and terminals. 
Making them look good depends on how good the finish is today - elbow grease without giving it a high sheen may work but if the plating is gone due to exposure to the elements, it may take more.
I have taken them apart and replated the housing or shell and put them back together. 
Be careful cleaning the insulating plate the resistors and terminals are mounted in - you can't really get the original look back easily (at least in my experience)

In the one in the photo, I did replate the terminals themselves and the cover but did a high-sheen job on it for kicks. 


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Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/29/2018 at 7:56am
I put a standard relay on mine on the "high" speed (straight through, no resistor) in an effort to get a little more air moving. It didn't help much, maybe a little. At least I won't run any wiring hot! AC switch just trips the relay, which supplies direct battery voltage -- same as some do for headlights (I did that too, and was when I got the idea).  You can use a modern resistor pack, but will have to mod the housing and maybe the wiring connectors also. As stated, these are pretty robust, but if yours is missing/bad...  depends on if you have a restored car or driver, really. 

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Frank Swygert


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jan/29/2018 at 8:33am
I ha e Doug's apart. Terminals clean and plated. Housing in process. Biggest issue is keeping terminals clean to avoid heat and resistance.
Relays way to go on non-stock.

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Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jan/30/2018 at 6:32pm











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Posted By: george w
Date Posted: Jan/30/2018 at 6:47pm
Night and day improvement in appearance. Some of these blocks had a distinct dark greenish tint to finish on the housing.

FWIW, AMC did offer a retro-fit A/C relay kit for the earlier pre-relay equipped models. The relay itself was/is mounted to the wiper plenum area above the blower motor. The kit includes the relay, which looks very much like a horn relay, a short wiring harness to tie into the existing blower harness wiring, two red power feed wires of different lengths for 6 and 8 cylinder cars that attaches to the battery side of the starter relay (solenoid)and a couple short hex head screws to attach the relay. There are at least three different part numbers for the same kit: 448 5922, 448 5936 and 812 1212

The relay provides for a 12 volt direct feed to the blower motor when the fan switch is placed in the high position. Takes the high current draw load off the fan switch and gets more voltage to the motor for a higher fan speed.

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Long time AMC fan. Ambassador 343, AMX 390, Hornet 360, Spirit 304 and Javelin 390. All but javelin bought new.


Posted By: DoughertyAMX
Date Posted: Jan/30/2018 at 7:00pm
Impressive!  Looks great Bill.


Posted By: JeeperJolene
Date Posted: Sep/17/2018 at 11:37pm
The wiring in my 73 is shot and the blower switch is nasty looking. I'm looking to convert the switch so that it itself doesn't have any resistors in it, but instead controls relays that use resistor wires so that none of that draw is going inside the dash or through the switch. However, it seems I would need three relays to make that work:



There has to be a better way to do this or something else I could do that I'm not aware of. Any suggestions? As it stands now, I dare not touch that switch in its current state.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/18/2018 at 5:35am
I can't see any other way. I just use one relay on mine (not a Javelin, 63 Classic), for high speed. You can use miniature relays instead of the typical automotive relays. I had to replace a circuit board in a kitchen range a few years ago and was surprised to find miniature relays on the 220V controls. You would need a small piece of breadboard to mount them, but weouldn't take up much room.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: JeeperJolene
Date Posted: Sep/20/2018 at 1:37am
Breadboard is actually a pretty good idea. If I go that route then I'll post the parts list and schematic that I make.

I guess all that's left is figuring out what kind of resistance I need for low and medium. I did some Google-fu and wasn't finding what I need. Since the switch is shot, I can't really read the resistance on it.


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Sep/20/2018 at 5:30am
Ha a bread board. Why not simplify things if rewiring without the factory resistor block.

A simple pulse width modulation will do the trick. It controls how often or I should say steady current is sent to the motor. Many motor drives are pulse width modulated, as the circuit runs cooler and is more accurate in speeds.

There are many kits or modules to wire up in series. Some are very simple 555 timer, capacitor, potentiometer adjusted, with a driver transistor. Others are built with a PLL circuit and binary circuit for forward/reverse and preset multiple stage motor control.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=pulse+width+motor+control&_sacat=0" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=pulse+width+motor+control&_sacat=0

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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/20/2018 at 7:00am
The e-bay waterproof PWM DC controller looks great, but they are 3.5"x2.5", and 2.5" thick. I suppose you could hide two under the dash though. Screw to dash on passenger side between switch and where the wires exit the body. No one will know but the installer. 10-60V should just be the input range, not the voltage setting range (needs at least 10V to operate). So while it may be a better solution than a resistor, it will take up more room. But it shouldn't get very hot.

The neat thing is you adjust to whatever speed you want low and medium to be. I used a universal blower motor rheostat type controller for low speed when I replaced a two speed (three wire) motor with a universal single speed one. That thing got hot and was mounted under the hood, but I set it at whatever I wanted low to be. Two of those could be used.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Sep/20/2018 at 8:03am
Farna, well I did not think of a water proof version, but that can be an option if expecting to replace the relay and resistor pack assemblies on the firewall or placing on the evap box.

Depending on circuitry, some smaller versions are probably MOSFET switched, which do not heat up like power transistor switches, so heat sinks can be slim line or even the aluminum housing.

Rule of thumb, get a module that has at least a 5 amp rating higher than the motor current rating. Even though the continuous current may be 15A, the instant on current can be much higher. Some PWC modules don't have a current limiter on duty cycles above 90%, being 100% duty cycle is continuous current. So if using one that just fits the current rating, may end up failing early when starting the fan in high range, rather than soft starting, at low and working up the range.

Most are small enough to fit under the dash, just the switch to control them may need some changes to the stock fit of your car's instrumentation.

To make an old switch work with a rheostat adjusted module, you can wire in resistors at each switch position above off, to be the resistance given by the removed rheostat. This a clean stock look and feel. The only difference is the over all function is now a modernized and efficient device.

To obtain proper resistor values, just play with the rheostat for required fan speeds needed, and measure the resistance. I would imagine rounding up or down to the closest value obtainable in a 1/4 watt resistor will work for using your factory switch to control the fan speeds.

If one wants to get elaborate, they can make a pigtail to connect to their factory switch, to keep the factory wiring intact, while disconnecting the factory fan circuit and tying it up out of the way.



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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: JeeperJolene
Date Posted: Sep/25/2018 at 10:43pm
Well, the blower fan is definitely being blocked by something, which would explain why it smoked when the previous owner tried to use it.My guess is some sort of nest or dead animal.

Does anyone know the resistor values of the Jav switches? I was hoping to get the new wire harness built before taking the dashboard apart, but it seems like I won't have a choice. It's not a huge deal since I'm pulling the engine and transmission out of it currently and it's not going anywhere for the rest of the winter.


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Sep/25/2018 at 11:28pm
Have you ever considered that the motor ITSELF may be shot, rusty, stuck, etc.?
It's very unlikely a "dead animal" is "blocking it". There's a lot of space around that cage. Something may have nested, but in my experience over the years, it's typically the motor itself that's the problem.
They are so simple to pull and look at in most AMCs (unlike CHEVROLET where you remove - or CUT, the inner fender for access)
The blower resistors run HOT - and are typically cooled by the blower itself, or by being on the firewall in a perforated metal shell for air movement, etc. They are wire-wound open air types in many AMCs. You know they run HOT when the connections are typically rusted and corroded and the plastic shell over the main wire is often melted or otherwise deformed. Most blower resistor issues aren't the resistor, but are the connections at or to the resistor. If kept cool, the resistors THEMSELVES don't usually fail. 

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Posted By: JeeperJolene
Date Posted: Sep/25/2018 at 11:37pm
I say this because it does start to turn and something is preventing it from continuing to move. I've been through this before with my Camaro, my old Ford and a friend's Chevelle. When they sit unattended and exposed for as long as my Jav did, especially when leaves and such fall out when I bump the air box, there's a good shot of a nest inside.


Posted By: S Curry
Date Posted: Sep/26/2018 at 9:18am
I don't know how long mine had been sitting, the tires were date coded in 94 and were brand new. This what I found on the heater core. Same in the fan box, don't have a pic. Fan was stuck also. Just took a disassemble clean and lube and good as new.

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SC


Posted By: JeeperJolene
Date Posted: Oct/04/2018 at 6:31pm




Yeah, it was definitely a nest. The motor works just fine now that it isn't blocked up.



Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Oct/04/2018 at 11:13pm
At least the motors on AMCs are simple to access and replace, and in most cases, save for EAGLE, the housings aren't that bad, either.
Eagles really suck when it comes to HVAC.

While finding the cause to be that is satisfying and is cheaper than a motor repair, it should be pointed out for the lurker that this is actually not a usual situation.
It happens, but isn't the first thing to suspect (but it's so very easy to check for!)
In 45 years of repair on hundreds of automotive HVAC systems (in shops where I have worked - all brands from AMC to VW to Lexus) and having rebuilt or restored dozens of blower motors, the "nest" situation isn't as common as one may think.
In fact, in 45 years doing this, I have never seen a nest that big and bad. I've never seen one that actually stopped a blower motor for that matter! 
So no, that would never be my "first guess". Every single one I've dealt with as a tech over the decades has been related to the physical or electrical aspects of the car's systems, the motor, etc.
And on Chevrolet, ugh, those were the pits.

I have three cars in my shop that have sat outside for years, decades even - each one in different circumstances, but outside.
One was in a grassy lot in Rural CA, another in a sort of remote part of MN, down in a low area near fields and woods, another was "god only knows" but the bottom indicates it sat in dirt for many years (the springs were rusted beyond holding the car up), and there's another outside of my shop which is 50 feet from a rural wooded area to the south, with a creek near, and not far from a river, and on the other side, bean and corn fields, walnut trees and so on.
No "nests" in any of them. 
In two cases the blower motor was stiff from sitting, there was nature's debris in the housing (leaves and stuff that got through the cowl screening and other holes), in another it was actually clean in the housing and the blower motor was stuck - but after five minutes was working fine with a little work and lube. The fourth, sitting outside among the mice, chipmunks and other "rodents" actually spins fine.

Even all of the blower motors on my shelves are situations where the motor itself was the issue, not nests.

That indeed is not common, and not something I'd expect to find, especially to that extent. 
By the way, forget dryer sheets - the Iowa mice, and I am NOT joking, drag them together and use them for NESTING MATERIALS. Yup, I've found nests made of the dryer sheets I've used to keep mice away from things. 

Maybe Iowa rodents are more discriminating!

But you'd think that doing this since the early 1970s I would have found at least one that was as bad as that.

Now if you want to talk COMBINES - fire one of those up in late summer to get it ready and STAND BACK and rats, parts of rats, mice and more come flying out the back as if thrown by a Cardinals pitcher. You DO find nests in those - but then there's FOOD around. Typically rodents build nests where they can cache food easily, it's not far away and there's a bit of shelter or warmth involved.
(it's one reason I try hard to avoid FOOD in the car - no one will be eating their McDonalds in my cars. it attracts things like pictured above!)

Gotta stop for some sleep - have to get up and drive an hour/55 miles in the AM to see an attorney, deal with insurance, wrongful death claims, and more......... there goes another full day!
This week was a total bust - dentist today, saw dentist on Tuesday, said to come back today, power was out over 11 hours Wednesday so no shop work (no lights, NO INTERNET, no tools) and had to get the plating tanks back up to temp. what a wasted week. 




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Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jul/09/2019 at 7:15am
The resistance isn't that critical. Just get a resistor pack from another car, even a GM. You won't notice if the fan blows slightly different than stock on low and medium speeds. I put a relay in the high speed line (direct from battery) on mine, but it didn't really make a difference. I run the fan on high a lot, so maybe the fan switch will appreciate it!


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jul/09/2019 at 7:56am
Never mind frank - he's a SPAMMER.

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