Best Pentrent for rusted bolts
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Forum Name: Tool Tips and fabrication
Forum Description: For tips, hints or "how-to" related to fabricating your own tools. Perhaps a neat home-made or special purpose tool you have come up with (safety first, of course!).
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Topic: Best Pentrent for rusted bolts
Posted By: smills61074
Subject: Best Pentrent for rusted bolts
Date Posted: Sep/25/2013 at 8:10pm
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I was google searching for the best penetrant. I had something that was really stuck. The number one thing that came up was this information below. Read on, but don't believe everything you read on internet. I sprayed tans/acetone on a rusty shaft for 2 weeks. I also beat on it side to side and on top daily. Wasn't moving, so I tried Kroil Oil. Had it moving in short order. It was a cast piece that I did not want to heat. If you google search for the best penetrate, read down the list farther, Trans/Acetone is a failure. It might work as a lubricant, but it doesn't eat rust. Just thought I would pass some information on. By the way, Kroil Oil has a weird sweet smell. Almost like Vicks Vapor Rub. I thought PB blaster was king. Article in the April/May 2007 issue of Machinist's Workshop. Nut were in a salt spray and corroded. Enough samples to try out the various penetrating oils on. The nuts/bolts were tested by soaking them in the penetrating oils for 8 hours. The load needed to break the nuts free was tested using a Baldwin compressometer. The results (lower is better): > 50/50 mix of PSF & acetone - 53 Lbs > Kroil - 106 Lbs > Liquid Wrench - 127 Lbs > PB Blaster - 214 Lbs > WD-40 - 238 Lbs > None - 516 Lbs The JeepForum's beloved PB Blaster did only slightly better than WD-40! The original article, as printed in the magazine, stated the test was run with ATF and acetone. The test was actually run with http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=power+steering" rel="nofollow - Power Steering Fluid. ------------- 68 Blue AMX Perfect California Body going for 401/6 speed 1 1/4 ton Power Wagon Ex Colorado Brush Truck 2006 Caddy CTS V with LS2 and manual trans Corsa Exhaust Beater car (daily driver) |
Replies:
Posted By: 74Bubblefender
Date Posted: Sep/25/2013 at 9:15pm
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Hey man where you been! :) That's been around since 1999 ------------- We are just about to forge new AMC V8 crankshafts.. please check here http://www.bulltear.com/forums/showthread.php?19564 |
Posted By: smills61074
Date Posted: Sep/25/2013 at 9:27pm
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I guess living in a cave. I tried it on a couple of different things. After 2 weeks of putting it on each day,and beating the heck out of a shaft, I was past frustrated. That's when I went back to the internet to research further. If this is Mythbusters, this myth is busted in my book.
------------- 68 Blue AMX Perfect California Body going for 401/6 speed 1 1/4 ton Power Wagon Ex Colorado Brush Truck 2006 Caddy CTS V with LS2 and manual trans Corsa Exhaust Beater car (daily driver) |
Posted By: typhooner
Date Posted: Sep/25/2013 at 10:22pm
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I have been busting rust for at least30 years, and have tried most everything under the sun. I have 2 favorites..........Kano Kroil.....works well, but expensive for how much you get. Doesn't always apply easy........and Gibbs Oil.......you get quite a bit in the can, and it sprays an aerosol squirt that makes it hit the target well in tight quarters. Both work nearly equally well, with Kroil having a slightly higher success rate. However, i find myself always going to the Gibbs Oil. It just works great, and is easy to use. If you apply either, it helps to be patient and let it sit for a day if possible, and it's probably necessary for extremely stubborn fasteners. But you can get good results after 5 minutes or so on fasteners not too badly rusted. For reassembly use Maxima Chain Wax from motorcycle/powersports shops. It applies just like WD-40 but gels up to a cosmoline like protective wax/grease. It dries to a slightly tacky dry finish,and you'll never have trouble with disassembly again, after using it. It does not attract dirt. You'll find a 100 uses for it. ------------- 1969 Hurst SC/Rambler A Scheme 1969 Rebel Raider Electric Green 1962 IH/AMC SC/out |
Posted By: 74Bubblefender
Date Posted: Sep/25/2013 at 11:37pm
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You should try some dot 5 and xylene ------------- We are just about to forge new AMC V8 crankshafts.. please check here http://www.bulltear.com/forums/showthread.php?19564 |
Posted By: KLW
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 12:49am
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I too must be dwelling in a cave as I have never heard of Kroll or an acetone mixture. Whenever I have something that rusted up, I have been using Sea Foam Deep Creep when heat is not an option. Some of the toughest rusty nuts and bolts can be found on the connection to the exhaust manifold. I have never found anything that would break those loose except for heat. Just for the heck of it, I tried Deep Creep on a really rusted set and they spun right off. So, if Kroll can outdo that, I would definitely gets some. I don't believe I have seen it in any parts stores; where do you guys get it? ------------- 1981 Spirit (420 cu in stroker - 570 hp) 1966 Ford Fairlane Convertible (331 Cu In - 450 HP) |
Posted By: stormy69
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 2:15am
| heat via oxy-acetylene is the best, as stated by KLW. |
Posted By: KLW
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 5:12am
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If you don't have an oxy-acetylene set up, MAP gas in one of those bern-z-matic torches works darn good for what it is. It'll loose a froze on brake disc and also do exhaust bolts most of the time.
------------- 1981 Spirit (420 cu in stroker - 570 hp) 1966 Ford Fairlane Convertible (331 Cu In - 450 HP) |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 5:25am
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My local NAPA store carries aerosol Kroil. Best commercial stuff I've ever used.
------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: wantajav
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 6:27am
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X2 for Kroil
I worked at a chemical plant in Louisiana, you oughta see some of the rusted bolts in a corrosive, hot and humid environment. We used Kroil, if that didn't work Kroil + cheater bar! Torch heat where we could but open flame = no no in a chem plant lots of times.
Other thing is maybe not every rusted situation responds exactly the same way, some loosen better than others when exposed to penetrant + vibration versus pure penetrant and brute force.
Mike
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Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 7:25am
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acetone because it's really thin, gets into spots the others simply can't get into - no matter what brand or product, and it takes along with it the small molecules of the ATF or PSF, which by the way back in the old days you used ATF AS PSF! We never bought dedicated steering fluid, kept a can of ATF around and used it in both the power steering and transmission. The acetone also evaporates and leave behind nothing to make matters worse. With other products when the light parts are done, what's left is heavy larger parts that then block later applications. As for that test, that's just too simplistic and gives comparisons in very controlled conditions using a single bolt and single nut together. When the combination is going through some parts then torqued, you have the threads hard against each other, totally unlike taking a nut and screwing it onto a bolt where there's clearance between threads. I don't consider that much more than a simple basic comparison. Maybe a good starting place, but not indicative of other real-world needs. For our antique engines and tractors, for example, if you get a piston stuck in a bore you might as well throw all that other stuff in the trash as that's all the good it will do you. One of the best tricks there is with engine sitting with the top of the bore "up", put a couple of inches of brake fluid in the bore on top of the piston, put an old rag on top to act as a wick - light it. The brake fluid will burn heating the cylinder but the liquid fluid will keep the piston cooler, and as the fluid heats it soaks into the spaces between the piston and bore. A lot of us have had great luck with that. For bolts or studs stuck in say, an exhaust manifold perhaps where the y-pipe or front pipe joins, I've had good luck either welding down through the center of a nut, welding the nut to the remains of the stud or bolt, and then being able to turn it out, or carefully cutting the stud/bolt remains out of the exhaust manifold, chasing the threads and moving forward with new stud/bolt. For a simple "nut stuck on the bolt" situation, when soaking with the beloved products (and it's a lot like religion, everyone knows theirs is the best) doesn't work, vibration. An air chisel with a blunt tool in it smacking against the sides of the nut, or if you can get a good squeeze on it with vice grips or similar you can distort the nut enough to break the bond the "rust" has formed. But since there's tension, unlike their test unless they ran their bolts through steel plate then torqued the nuts on, it will be different than their results. Typhooner - we used to buy Gibbs by the case, literally. Not only did it work much like the Kroil for stuck stuff, but I've done amazing things with it otherwise, too! We used it at the antique engine shows on the tractor and engine mags after a rain storm and it was amazing - crank and crank, no fire. Spray down the mag and wires with Gibbs and the thing suddenly had good ignition. On aged paint on those old things a wipe-down with Gibbs and it was less likely to get as dusty, and the paint looked a whole lot better. The red in red paint actually looked more red again. It's a fantastic starting fluid, too! We've used it on cars, tractors and antique engines - it won't dry out the cylinder and rings like other stuff does, and it helps some pretty stubborn old engines out sometimes. Better or worse than other stuff? I won't say because IMO, each does a decent job for certain things. For starter and alternator work, I keep WD40 handy. It's cheap and it pretty much always does the trick unless something is REALLY bad (and you guys I suspect have seen some of the things I'm talking about - it looks like the starter or alternator had spent the last 30 years in a chicken coop under the nests, then in the cattle barn for them to play with, then it's dragged out put on sale) I do find it interesting in the "test" that PB Blaster, which some also swear by, took double what some of the others did, and good old Liquid Wrench was only slightly more effort that Kroil! Very interesting - some folks swear LW is worthless cheap stuff and yet it out-performed two of the others by a huge margin. Mike/wantajav summed things up pretty well, IMO. He's right. I've seen cases where the conditions varied just enough that the last trick used didn't work the same as the prior situation called for. Hey mike - I used to work for Compressor Controls Corp. - you should have seen some of the notebook computers I dealt with when field engineers returned from their trips. I know exactly what you are talking about - and those were only exposed for perhaps hours, a couple days at the most! WD40 is very highly recommended by certain quilting machine manufacturers and tech support. They advise that as part of routine maintenance you remove the bobbin, soak the lower end of the machine (bobbin and hook area) with WD40, turn the machine on and start it and run it up to speed and this cleans the lower end, loosens things up, etc. You run it like that a few minutes, shut it down, wipe everything off, and then oil as recommended in the correct spots and it's good to go. That's recommended routine maintenance for the lower end of some of the long-arm machines. They specify WD40 by name. They also clearly state "WD40 is not a lubricant and is not a replacement for the light machine oil......" that should be used in the bobbin hook and shaft areas. -------------  http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: typhooner
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 10:10am
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I think Billd is right. Different situations call for different methods and substances. You have to look carefully at the problem, and decide which substance(s) are the best for your specific rust problem. For basic nut and bolt, threaded fasteners it helps to understand what your problem is............A threaded bolt is in all actuality a "spring" . It is made to thread into it's corresponding partner (nut/casting/etc.) with a "slip fit"..........that is.......untill it tightens. Then the metal threads act as a "spring" against each other creating an "interference fit". Even though the threads are tight on one side, there is a gap on the other side as a result of the fastener being designed to thread in as a slip fit. Because of this gap moisture can make it's way inside that gap, creating oxides(or Rust to you and i) of the iron in the fastener. The resulting oxides then take up the gap in the threads making the fastener "frozen". Your job as a rusted Boltologist is to find something that has sufficient penetrating action to travel into the now microscopically miniscule gaps in the oxide rust jammed between the threads. Along with that penetrant you hope to carry along with it something that will either break up, dissolve,or somehow free the rust from its metal bonds, so you can remove the fastener. Your tools mostly are anything of sufficiently thin surface tension to penetrate.............substances to either attack the rust or somehow negate the bond......and heat/cold to break the metal to oxide bond. It can be as simple as an application of water(what created the rust, and is also a solvent) or as fancy as a complicated concoction you make at home. But the basics of WHY the fastener is frozen, is your best bet to figuring out how to free it. Whew! I slobbered a bibful there. Good luck!
------------- 1969 Hurst SC/Rambler A Scheme 1969 Rebel Raider Electric Green 1962 IH/AMC SC/out |
Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 10:30am
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Best I have ever used is GM heat riser lube or now its called rust penetrant GM part No. 88862627. ------------- http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: typhooner
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 11:18am
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Don't forget, some alternative tools in the Rustologists toolbox, are Pressure,such as hydraulic pressure on a frozen piston using a grease fitting welded to a spark plug, and pressurizing it with grease. Pressure and time using penetrants,and placing a wrench,etc. with considerable tension on it using a cable come along or ratcheting tie down strap..........apply solvent and come back the next day..........the "pressure" can sometimes break the bond. Just be careful not to apply too much pressure that would cause failure of the metal. And one of the BEST alternatives, if you can do it is ELECTROLYSIS. For those "no way this is coming apart without breaking" problems. Electrolysis, in a nutshell does the reverse of plating. It removes rust oxides, molecule by molecule, travels them across the solution of water and baking soda, and plates the oxides(like barnacles) onto a "sacrificial" piece of metal, such as some old stainless trim you have laying around. The downside......you have to have a container that the item can fit in and be submersed in water, ie., a plastic bucket, kids plastic pool,etc. Theoretically you could do this to an entire car body, but not very practical. The process creates small amounts of hydrogen and oxygen in the bubbles, so you don't want to do this in an enclosed space, lest you want to see what it was like when the Hindenburg blimp burned. Do it outdoors. The upside..........rusty water with baking soda is non toxic and you can dispose of it as you wish without harm, when you are finished. And the best part........the process penetrates, molecule by molecule into the rust, no matter how secluded it might be hiding. That means it gets all the way to the bottom of the threads. That "no way this is coming apart" item will now come apart as if it were new. Someone will always pipe up about "hydrogen embrittlement" from using this process, but in all reality this is just a myth that gets spread because there are welders that can created hydrogen embrittlement because of the presence of Hydrogen inside the molten metal. The electrolysis process exposes the steel or iron to hydrogen on the surface only, and it is not able to penetrate the metal itself. So the Hydrogen that touches the surface does not cause embrittlement IMHO, and i have never seen or heard a case of embrittlement using this process. But it still gets spread around anyway. I have an old disc brake setup,(spindle/rotor/caliper) that came from a Sc/Rambler, and looks like it doesn't want to come apart without breaking something. I'll set this process up with a pictorial to go with it sometime in the future, if i can get some spare time, i'll post it in the forum, so you can see firsthand what i'm talking about. For those who are curious just google Electrolysis Rust Removal, and you'll find plenty of info on the process. ------------- 1969 Hurst SC/Rambler A Scheme 1969 Rebel Raider Electric Green 1962 IH/AMC SC/out |
Posted By: 401MATCOUPE
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 11:27am
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In Commercial Aerospace we use Kano AeroKroil in Orange can and another called Mouse Milk in a blue container...both with a high rate of success. ------------- Ross K. Peterson 68X,GoPac,343,AT,52A(1stCar) 68X,GoPac,390,4sp,52A 69X,GoPac,390,4sp,64A 70X,GoPac,390,4sp,87A,8 70X,GoPac,390,4sp,BBO,8 70 Jav SST,390,AT,BSO 74MatX,401,AT,Prototype 74MatX,401,AT |
Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 11:58am
| ... used to use diesel fuel on the farm ... and a BF hammer ... welder trick also worked good and caused fewer fires than a torch ... |
Posted By: Mr. Ed
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 1:00pm
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. No penetrating oil will work if it evaporates! Take whatever oil you are using and put some in a bathroom cup. Let it sit for a day. If the cup is empty, the oil evaporated. If it evaporates, how can it penetrate?! Later! Mr. Ed ------------- 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo "Gwendolyn." 1978 Concord Sport coupe "Mr. Black". 1982 Concord wagon. The Admiral. FOR SALE! 1976 Sportabout X, 304, auto, air. The Bronze Goddess |
Posted By: iamramblinrod
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 7:15pm
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has anybody ever used Lubri Plate Chain & Cable Spray? I have been useing it since 1966 and have not found anything better . PB blaster uses about 4 times as much and takes 24 hours longer. the only thing WD40 is good for is arthritis in your fingers. Iamramblinrod |
Posted By: smills61074
Date Posted: Sep/26/2013 at 8:10pm
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Sorry for posting in the wrong topic. I might have been a little frustrated after beating on a lever on a splined shaft on a tractor. And then finding out the witches brew was a dream. The shaft I was working on came vertically out or the top of trans. Water has been running down it many years. I could get it to move with the trans/acetone, but after a week and a half it was not moving any better. I put the Kroil oil on, and it was like a miracle. I really don't think the trans/acetone did anything. As far as the acetone evaporating, it is a highly volatile chemical. So, that logic makes sense to me. From what I saw, trans or acetone will not eat rust. So, I was just letting people know its use is limited. A torch has its place. Steel is different than cast iron. Cast iron will temper and become brittle. Think of it as cheap steel. It is porous. I was patient, I waited a week and a half. I applied the brew daily and used a sledge hammer and a wood block to beat the lever back and forth. I have learned to walk away and come back another day. Tme is your friend, broken off studs in an aluminum bock are not you friend. I am from the rust belt. Rust takes time. Good luck to all on your rusted parts removal. ------------- 68 Blue AMX Perfect California Body going for 401/6 speed 1 1/4 ton Power Wagon Ex Colorado Brush Truck 2006 Caddy CTS V with LS2 and manual trans Corsa Exhaust Beater car (daily driver) |