Dual Carbs for my 196
Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC 6 Cylinder Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made I-6 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52504
Printed Date: Apr/24/2024 at 6:27am
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Topic: Dual Carbs for my 196
Posted By: stacks
Subject: Dual Carbs for my 196
Date Posted: Jul/29/2013 at 4:34am
Here are a few pics of my homemade intake and a mockup of the carbs for my 60 Rambler American. I made the plate out of 1/2 inch aluminum stock and the riser/flange out of the same material and some exhaust tubing. I still need to polish it out and figure out the linkage. I have two nice Carter RBS carbs and one core (shown). I think these unusual carbs will look cool on my engine.   ------------- Jack |
Replies:
Posted By: DaemonForce
Date Posted: Jul/29/2013 at 5:36am
| Twin H Power on a Rambler? Don't know if I like it but this is definitely interesting. |
Posted By: rocklandrambler
Date Posted: Jul/29/2013 at 7:06am
Looks good to me. Go for it.  ------------- Past AMC's 1974 Hornet X (new) 1975 Gremlin X (new) 1964 Classic 660 Cross Country 1965 American 440-H |
Posted By: Uncle Bud
Date Posted: Jul/29/2013 at 7:37am
Looking good. ------------- Buddy 1964 American 440H "Tortue Grande Vitesse" |
Posted By: SnakePlissken
Date Posted: Jul/29/2013 at 9:54am
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Gives the "outer" cylinders more even fuel , they tend to run lean on many carbed 6 cylinders. ------------- 1976 Matador & 1972 Gremlin |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jul/29/2013 at 12:00pm
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I made supports for a threaded steel rod for the throttle linkage for my dual carb setup. A piece of steel with a hole slightly larger than the rod was used for the support. Two of these were bolted down under an intake bolt near each end. Use a 1/4" steel rod. Make two short arms to link between the rod and carb. They just need to be the same length. Fasten the arms to the threaded rod using two nuts an a lock washer. Run one nut where the arm needs to be, slide on the arm, then the lock washer and tighten the other nut, locking the arm in place. I just used a piece of coat hanger wire between the carbs and arms -- just bent two the same length and adjusted the arms. A third arm is needed on the firewall end of the rod for the pedal linkage to attach to. Make that arm so that it is the same distance between the original linkage rod and where the linkage (or cable) attaches to the arm. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: jmhackney
Date Posted: Jul/30/2013 at 11:10pm
| I think this is a really cool and great idea. I think everyone needs to see the trend that he could make. These 196's are getting harder to find and seeing something truly unique is something special. |
Posted By: stacks
Date Posted: Aug/02/2013 at 5:37pm
OK, I am all set to install the dual carbs on my Rambler tomorrow. Here are some pics of the setup with the throttle linkage (thanks Frank). Wish me luck.     ------------- Jack |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Aug/02/2013 at 7:52pm
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That is a really clever way to build these. It makes me want to find something with a 196 in it. Only if I did I would want it to have the GM hydramatic transmission used by Nash in the early 50's up through 57 ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: rocklandrambler
Date Posted: Aug/03/2013 at 2:06am
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Looks good but is it going to clear the oil fill pipe? ------------- Past AMC's 1974 Hornet X (new) 1975 Gremlin X (new) 1964 Classic 660 Cross Country 1965 American 440-H |
Posted By: stacks
Date Posted: Aug/03/2013 at 2:41am
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OH I hope so. I'll find out tomorrow. I took the car to a Friday night cruise and found many Rambler lovers there. Of course the young people don't know much about it but sure think it is cool. We had a 65 Rambler Classic and a 61 Metro there also. ------------- Jack |
Posted By: stacks
Date Posted: Aug/03/2013 at 10:06pm
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The carbs are on but one of them is leaking gasoline. I need to check out the needle and seat. It appears to be hung open. Here are some pics of my efforts today =. Placing the plate on the engine. This took some time as I had to make some adjustments to get everything lined up properly.   Then I installed my home made linkage. Everything cleared ok but I need to fiddle with the hookup to the accelerator. I have something in mind to make it work.   Then I torqued down the headbolts holding the plate.  Next I mounted the carbs, and again I had to make some adjustments to get a good fit. It was really close to hitting the heater plumbing, but it is ok.   Then I ran the gas line, vacuum line, and transmission vacuum line. I sort of ran out of time so I quit for the day. All in all I am pleased with the appearance. I will get a lot of pleasure out of opening my hood now.  ------------- Jack |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Aug/05/2013 at 1:33am
SLICK!!!!
------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Aug/06/2013 at 10:28am
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Looks good! Glad my idea worked for you. You made a much nicer looking implementation than what I threw together way back when! Mine was much closer to the carbs, but that really doesn't matter. I had left the plate rectangular instead of trimming to fit like you did too -- like I said "thrown together". I had intended to dress it up later, but took it off before I did. Ran it for about a year though. Since I was driving the car everyday the single 2V was a bit easier to deal with, so when I found a good WCD to replace my old worn out one I switched back. No difference in power between the WCD and duals, but the duals sure are better eye candy!! ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: stacks
Date Posted: Aug/06/2013 at 11:56am
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Thanks for the positive comments everybody - that is what makes this forum so great. The car is all together and running. I did notice an improvement in performance and exhaust sound. I still have a surging with the rps above idle so I am going to check float levels and look for vacuum leaks. All in all I am very happy with the looks. I took it to a Monday night cruise and got rave reviews. I thought that I had the wrong jet sizes but have learned that the RBS carb does not have jets, but uses a metering rod. It is not easy to get the metering rod out as you pretty much destroy the plug that holds it in place. So I am not going to mess with that. I did rebuild my "new" carb (that is where my leak was coming from - wrong needle valve) and I think it is good. They are pretty simple carbs and easy to remove. Anyway the car is spitting out black smoke from the tailpipe so I must figure it out and fix it. ------------- Jack |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Aug/06/2013 at 2:58pm
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All metering rod carbs DO have jets. The metering rods go down into a large jet, effectively changing the size of the jet as it does. The smaller step on the end of the rod means more fuel goes around it through the jet, larger step reduces fuel flow. There are usually three steps. You need to make DARN SURE that the jets AND metering rods are EXACTLY the same size in BOTH carbs. If not, you will eventually burn a hole in a piston -- #6 if the rear carb has a smaller jet/larger metering rod, #1 if the front carb. If you don't cruise long distances a lot it may take a long time for a piston to burn. I had the dual on a daily driver and made runs to my parents home in SC from Warner Robins GA, and from WR to Atlanta sometimes. I was an hour into an Atlanta trip one day when the hole burned in the piston. The problem was one of the carbs (Carter YF, no metering rods) had a jet that was one or two numbers different than the other. Took about four months to burn a hole in the piston. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: stacks
Date Posted: Aug/08/2013 at 5:22am
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Sage advice. Sure enough my new carb is feeding way too much gas into the manifold. There is a noticeable difference in how cool the rear carb is from the front one. It is cold to the touch while the front one is only cool. I disconnected each carb in turn and ran it as a test. With the rear carb it blew black smoke like crazy. I have located another Carter RBS and will give it a try when it arrives. ------------- Jack |
Posted By: stacks
Date Posted: Aug/13/2013 at 8:04pm
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My new replacement carb arrived and looks good. I removed the intake plate and resealed it with some Permitex #2. The new carb works great and resealing the plate solved my vacuum leak. So now the car runs nice and smooth. I am so happy. As a side note I obtained another engine and automatic transmission today. It is complete with carb, starter, generator, distributor and oil filler tube. It needs a good cleaning and some inspection. If it looks ok on the inside I may put it in my car. ------------- Jack |
Posted By: stacks
Date Posted: Sep/02/2013 at 7:59pm
I obtained a nice matched pair of Holley carbs for my Rambler. Here are a few pics of them on the car. I still need to tidy up the fuel lines and make some minor adjustments. All in all they work better than the Carter RBS carbs I had on the car. I especially like the glass fuel bowl on the Holley's. I have heard them called fish bowls.     ------------- Jack |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Sep/02/2013 at 9:34pm
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I used that holly carburetor back in the day and really liked them. That is a slick looking package.
------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Sep/03/2013 at 2:04am
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One good thing about those carbs is that the fuel bowls won't warp. One bad thing is that the fuel bowls can break. Definitely and eye-catching package though. Joe ------------- Happiness is making something out of nothing. |
Posted By: rocklandrambler
Date Posted: Sep/03/2013 at 2:23am
Those Holley's look sooooooooooo much better than the Carter's. You done good.  ------------- Past AMC's 1974 Hornet X (new) 1975 Gremlin X (new) 1964 Classic 660 Cross Country 1965 American 440-H |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/03/2013 at 10:48am
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Those glass bowl carbs do look a lot better! I assume you checked and made sure both had the exact same size jets?
------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: stacks
Date Posted: Sep/03/2013 at 12:17pm
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Thanks for all the comments. I put size 53 jets in the carbs but it seems to want more. I think I will try something a little larger just to see. I had to trim the paper air filter an inch or so to give me clearance to close the hood, but it is ok now. I do not like the fact that the fuel input is on the passenger side of the carbs. I don't think I can get the valve cover off without a lot of work. I thought about turning the carbs around but the heater control valve prohibited that idea. I have another valve cover at the chrome platters. I will be installing that pretty soon. My old cover got battery acid on it and the chrome came off in several spots. I really would like to get that huge battery out of the engine compartment. I have not come up with a good idea for doing that yet. ------------- Jack |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Sep/03/2013 at 6:22pm
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While any modification such as putting a battery some where else is a lot of work and in some cases not some money, mounting one in the trunk is always option. Needed is a battery box that can be installed in the trunk to house the battery, to keep it from ricocheting around and properly vent it. Along with enough large gauge wire to run to the starter along with any other wiring that is required and that generally would be something going to the alternator that is big enough to carry charging current the length of the car. And a good solid return line going to a good clean connection on the uni body so it can be come the negative side of the equation. Large wires, clean connections and battery box. Copper is expensive and so is the battery box but it is do-able. If you wanted the battery out of the engine compartment. ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: rocklandrambler
Date Posted: Sep/04/2013 at 1:47am
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I'm sure Jegs, Summit and most of the racing/speed sites have battery relocation kits. ------------- Past AMC's 1974 Hornet X (new) 1975 Gremlin X (new) 1964 Classic 660 Cross Country 1965 American 440-H |
Posted By: stacks
Date Posted: Sep/04/2013 at 8:23am
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We probably should start a new thread on Battery Relocation, but I will offer one more comment on it. My car is a wagon and I am don[t really want the battery inside the passenger compartment. Also, if I try to put it in the spare tire well I only have 7 1/2 inches of height to work with. I am thinking that a small gel type of battery in the engine compartment is my best answer. ------------- Jack |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Sep/04/2013 at 8:42am
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Under those conditions such as it is wagon, than relocation is not a viable solution. I to http://https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.228493747162439.70163.100000054477839&type=1&l=4127058d30" rel="nofollow - o have a wagon as my next car and of course hatch backs. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.228493747162439.70163.100000054477839&type=1&l=4127058d30 You can of course use a relocation kit which does vent the battery but it also becomes a functional part of your interior decor. A solution not really desired. Your only choice then becomes one of an OPTIMA battery which is a GEL battery and will not out gas. They do however have their own weird failure mode where the voltage will drop off when loaded towards the end of their life and normal checking generally does not identify that, you have to program your self to look for it. It generally shows up as a problem trying to start the car as the voltage falls off. And if this is not a concern. Go for one of them. ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: tyrodtom
Date Posted: Sep/04/2013 at 9:25am
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All of my circle track cars have relocated batteries. But all the cars are open, so I don't have to worry about ventilation. I bend up the box in parts on a metal brake, weld it together, weld stout hold down rods to each side, with a strap on the top. There are several batteries made that already have a vent capable system installed, the vent caps end in a little tube, all you have to do to external vent it is add a flexible tube to it and vent the tube outside. I use 1.0 welding cable for the positive and negative, and run my ground all the way to the engine block, then to the body. ------------- 66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va. |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/04/2013 at 9:56am
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Depends on the wagon. The 63-66 two seat Classic/Ambo has a storage compartment in the back next to the spare tire that's just big enough for a battery. The American doesn't have that compartment though. There MIGHT be enough room to build a battery box and cover under one of the side panels, but it would be tight. Maybe one of the smaller gel batteries? The small gel battery could probably be mounted under the rear seat like the newer Cadillacs, just cut a hole in the floor and weld in a box a couple inches lower. Mounting the compact battery under the fender is even a viable option, but that location would be hard to get to when changing batteries -- would have to remove a front tire and lift it in... Imagination and ingenuity is all it takes, then a bit of work! Just a smaller battery and tray under the hood is definitely the easiest option though. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: jsprengeler
Date Posted: Sep/13/2013 at 9:48am
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Which Holley Carb model did you use? Is it the # 1931? Where did you find them? I have a Carter RBS on my 69 I6, and I've had nothing but problems with it, even after 2 rebuilds. Like to try this Holley route. Thanks. ------------- |
Posted By: stacks
Date Posted: Sep/13/2013 at 12:05pm
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These are 1904's that I got from a friend. He sold them to me for his cost, $100 each, which was a good deal considering the Ebay prices for them. The RBS's that I used before ran way too rich, and I could never figure out how to lean them out. The Holley's have jets that you can change. ------------- Jack |
Posted By: jsprengeler
Date Posted: Sep/13/2013 at 7:07pm
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Jack, What are the 1904's for? I have # 1931 from a 66 American. Tempted to rebuild and try it out. The linkage is different, but it might be worth it..... ------------- |
Posted By: stacks
Date Posted: Sep/20/2013 at 11:03pm
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The guy I got them from kept saying that they were from a 53 Ford Pickup, but I cannot verify that. There are so many subtle differences in these carbs and each carries its own number. I think there is a website somewhere that decodes the numbers. I have four of these carbs but the accelerator pump is different on two of them. I am far from being an expert on these carbs. I cannot get one of my 'good' ones to idle properly. It is ok for a while and then it loads up the engine. I think that the enrichment circuit goes hayware for no reason. I keep working on it. I say to go ahead and tear into your carb. It will be an experience. ------------- Jack |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Sep/20/2013 at 11:10pm
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The last time I messed with a dual carburetor set up, while the look like adjusting them is a straight forward deal I found that the carburetors interacted with one another while making adjustments and asking them to be stable. Not having a tool designed to work with dual carbs I made one using a vacuum gauge and a mayonnaise jar that allowed me to tap in the vacuum tap each carburetor had while monitoring both at the same time and adjusting idle mixture controls to read zero (0) on the vacuum gauge This stopped a lot of talking back and forth between carburetors. ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Sep/20/2013 at 11:45pm
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Actually originally AMC did not use the 1904 like the Fords used. AMC used a close cousin called the 1908. If you search Ebay you can normally find one or more 1908's listed. The accelerator pump lever is a nylon part that was not available new until the last few months when they started being repopped. My 1962 Classic uses a 1908. They are prone to float bowl leaks if you tighten the screws very tight at all. But overall I like its tunability. Stacks is correct about the interchangeable jets but the factory jet (a 53?) has been satisfactory for my 62 Classic around town so far. There is a series of Youtube videos from Mike's Carburetor Parts which shows a rebuild of a 1904. It's almost totally applicable to the 1908. Joe ------------- Happiness is making something out of nothing. |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Sep/21/2013 at 10:45am
Oh there's a reason it goes haywire, you just can't find it!! I hate when that happens...
------------- Frank Swygert |