Blue smoke, shaking engine, oily plugs...help!!
Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49697
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Topic: Blue smoke, shaking engine, oily plugs...help!!
Posted By: Nightmare2013
Subject: Blue smoke, shaking engine, oily plugs...help!!
Date Posted: Apr/25/2013 at 10:38pm
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I have an '83 Wagoneer with the 360in it. Got a huge recent problem! I took off this morning and all was great, just got my carb tuned up good and it was a beautiful day. I stopped at a light, everything seemed dandy until I took off. Mind the fact I am deaf, and didn't hear anything. But taking off, my car was shaking like I was driving over grates! It smoothed out past 40mph. Came to the next light and just about choked on the fumes, blue smoke pouring out of the tailpipe. I said screw this, turned around and went home. Once it cooled down I checked everything accessible. Oil was dark but fine, no oil in the water. Had some oil around the driver side manifold, so pulled the plugs and they were all oily. Manifold and plugs on other side are fine. I checked all around and could only find the seeped oil around that manifold, and not around the valve cover gasket. I haven't pulled the valve cover yet but will soon. Has anyone experienced this before? My biggest concern is that I learned today that it's been rebuilt and is already .060 over, so no boring for this old block, and I'm scraping to hear that it's just the head or gasket! |
Replies:
Posted By: purplehornet
Date Posted: Apr/25/2013 at 11:43pm
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Check your intake manifold bolts and see if they are loose.
------------- 73 Hornet X hatchback 401, auto, 5.00-1 70 AMX 390, 6 speed |
Posted By: RegattaBlueAMX
Date Posted: Apr/26/2013 at 5:27am
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Check compression on the affected cylinders. You may have cracked the piston ring lands. My 390 had several pistons with broken ring lands and the engine ran surprisingly well. Hope this isn't the case with your engine.. Gil |
Posted By: budryzer
Date Posted: Apr/26/2013 at 7:13am
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The first thing I would check is to ensure the oil is draining back down off of the heads. It could be that as you were driving, the oil was lubricating the rockers but not returning to the pan because of clogged or restricted returns. They are at the front and rear of the head. The oil woul then get pushed through the valve seals and show up on all four plugs:) ------------- 1968AMX Stroked 369 "UNCLE SAM" tribute 04 H2 04 BMW 325 A/W 95 Ultralight Hobbycopter 85 CR500 x 2 and 13 other open Class Bikes 77 Hercules Chinook Flt Lead Prev 1970AMX390/4spSonicw/mask&3Gremm's |
Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Apr/26/2013 at 8:46pm
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Everything said so far are all good things to check. You said the motor has been rebult what intake is on it? if not stock do you know if the baffel was installed on it and using the stock pan gasket?
Could be pulling oil thru the PCV but most of the time it only oils 1 plug but yes do check the bolts as it could pull oil from the valley and get all valves wets.
Dave ---- ------------- TSM = Technical Service Manual 75 Gremlin X v8 for sale 70 Javelin 360/auto drag car 70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car |
Posted By: Nightmare2013
Date Posted: Apr/27/2013 at 12:17am
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Alright yanked the valve cover tonight. Started getting dark so I could only check my front oil passage which seemed clean. My valve cover was held in place by some black goop, like silicone sealant! But everything looked pretty decent, aside from my rockers and springs being covered in oil. I'll do a more thorough search tomorrow after work but overall things looked good. It was rebuilt but still retains the stock intake manifold. The only real modification was a comp 260h cam, from what the original builder tells me. I'll try to see if I can find something more tomorrow. Thanks for the help! Keeping my fingers crossed and hoping ny rings are still good. |
Posted By: Nightmare2013
Date Posted: Apr/27/2013 at 12:21am
| Sorry, I did check the pcv and it was still looking fine. Will check the intake bolts tomorrow. |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Apr/27/2013 at 8:18am
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The idea of checking compression at this point in time makes good sense. Well I suspect not being able to hear what is going on is making it hard to understand what took place but the last two times (yes twice) my 390 did that I had indeed broken pistons. What had taken place was detonation (something normally being able to be heard. Also called pinging) had caused damage to the pistons and the ring lands had broken. This of course caused two things to take place. A loss of compression there for a shaking situation as at low rpm the engine was badly miss-firing and blow-by. To the point where pressure generated in the crank case caused by the broken and/or damaged pistons trying to fire thus due to holes in them, pressurizing the crank case. This cause oil fumes to blow up the filler tube on the front of the engine and then back through the oil cap and it tube that connects to the factory air cleaned and then into the factory air cleaner filling it with oil. If you no longer have the factory air cleaner and it's tube the oil would still blow back up that way but once it got to the breather at the top of the oil fill tube, the oil would concense and run down to the top of the engine filling the intake manifold area with oil. As to the engine? Well, I can say when all was said and done that I had one good piston left. The other 7 were junk. Before I took it apart due to wishful thinking I had assumed I had only damaged 1 piston not 7 and the damage was minor so I had ordered and received an OEM piston that would fit my engine. Upon discovering I needed 7 not one AND both heads had been damaged badly by broken piston parts AND the cylinders had been scored by the same broken parts and in addition the oil pan was full of broken piston parts (are you following the story here?) I ended up rebuilding the engine and while I had the heads re-machined for use I ended up replacing them with open chamber heads to drop the compression down to something that was manageable with 91 octane fuel. And never broke another piston. As to the one I bought and could no longer use? A few years later I sold it to a person in Florida who needed one OEM piston and could not find any one that made them any longer. I guess that is no longer true, they are made now but of questionable quality. An oh, by the way I have a pair of 360's on an engine stand. One a builder and one I probably will use in my Next Hornet restoration. The builder can be yours fairly easily if you want. ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: Nightmare2013
Date Posted: Apr/27/2013 at 9:19pm
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Uncljohn, I'll keep that offer in mind. I'll ask the wife tomorrow night when she returns and see if she's okay with it. She knows I love my jeep so we'll see! The oil cap and filter actually look great, save for some black soot which is new. Same thing though, shaking at low rpm. My oil looks pretty decent though. Haven't ran a compression check as I'm not sure how to. Gonna get my power steering pump in place in the Tahoe than look a little deeper into the jeep. Might drop the oil pan and pull the heads tomorrow, if we ever get some dang sun around here. |
Posted By: Nightmare2013
Date Posted: Apr/27/2013 at 9:31pm
| Forgot to add, I've always had a slight, intermittent misfire, but once this situation happened it stopped, strangely enough! |
Posted By: Ram Air Rick
Date Posted: Apr/27/2013 at 9:44pm
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Pull the plugs and check to see if any of the electrodes are bent.
I had a similar experience once ,and it wound up that something small,never found out what,was ingested into the carb.. Same exact thing as you described happened to me. And you did mention having the carb worked on.
Pulled plugs and found three bent plug electrodes. Looked further and found bent pushrods.
All cylinders effected were sharing the same plane in the intake,so it was figured that the whatever foriegn matter it was got pushed back into the intake and sucked into another cyl. till it screwed up three cylinders.
Hope this isn't your issue ,but thought I'd throw it out there.
Good Luck..
Rich C.
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Posted By: budryzer
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 8:54am
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X2 on uncljohn's post. I too broke seven ring landings with the detonation issue. If all seems fine with your pvc and returns...... a compression test and a vacum test will reveal solid mechanical status. If they are good??? then you need to look for flaws, such as why or how oil is being introduced into the combustion chambers only on the one side of the block. Good luck. ------------- 1968AMX Stroked 369 "UNCLE SAM" tribute 04 H2 04 BMW 325 A/W 95 Ultralight Hobbycopter 85 CR500 x 2 and 13 other open Class Bikes 77 Hercules Chinook Flt Lead Prev 1970AMX390/4spSonicw/mask&3Gremm's |
Posted By: mmaher94087
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 10:49am
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"I had a similar experience once ,and it wound up that something small,never found out what,was ingested into the carb.. Same exact thing as you described happened to me. And you did mention having the carb worked on."
I got a nice '70 390 block free because a mechanic couldn't find one of the carb nuts. A head and a piston were toast but everything else was good. Mike ------------- Mike |
Posted By: Nightmare2013
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 2:55pm
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Thanks! I checked the carb and whatnot, I did the tuning but it was just changing the idle and choke. Been wrestling with that damn ps pump in the Tahoe and the waggy is sitting patiently. Would risolene oil conditioner cause such a response? |
Posted By: SKeown
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 4:36pm
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Are you saying all the plugs on one side are oil fouled and none on the other side?
SKeown
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Posted By: Nightmare2013
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 7:14pm
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Skeown, yes. Pull all plugs, driver side oil fouled, passengers side light tan. Pulled valve cover and gasket appeared either melted or it was a cheap rtv job. Rockers appeared fine, no bent or snapped bridges. I put into risolene oil conditioner about 40 miles ago before this occured. When driving no oil pressure drop and temperature was good, and my mystery misfire was gone, but now it shakes at low rpm (like driving over grates) and got blue smoke. Did not hear any pinging or detonation but I am deaf as anything. Didn't feel anything out of the ordinary before this occured either. Btw tail pipe was black and wet when I got home. |
Posted By: 73hornut
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 8:10pm
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What do the valve guide seals look like? Have you replaced the cap and rotor?
------------- 71 Javelin 74 Gremlin 79 Spirit AMX Rogue Valley Rumblers Like Us on FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/1602825606650796" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1602825606650796 |
Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 8:47pm
| Intake gasket? Maybe it failed and oil is going directly into the ports. Pull the carb look in the intake runners and see if there is oil on the cylinder head port floors. |
Posted By: SKeown
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 9:37pm
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With the origional dual plane intake that makes no sense. If oil is getting into one port it should be dispersed to two cylinders on each bank to some degree. I would remove the intake and do a compression test, most likely something will jump out between those two things.
SKeown
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Posted By: jcisworthy
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 9:56pm
| Thought he said all plugs on drivers side had oil so I figured it was easy enough to pull the carb and look for oil. Oil directly into the ports would smoke like he said and could the foul plugs which would account for the running rough and shaking. |
Posted By: Nightmare2013
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 10:54pm
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Alright well the Tahoe kicked my bum so taking a break until tomorrow, my birthday! Gotta work the whole day, but next steps will pull the carb and intake and try to check the valve guides. Really not wanting to pull the head but may have to. Got limited resources at the moment. But yes, all four spark plugs are oil fouled. It still retains the original intake, although after seeing that crappy valve cover gasket I am curious as to the other gaskets. This occured roughly 40 miles after using that risolene, so I'm hoping that stuff didn't bust up my rings or pistons, as absurd as that may sounds. How do I perform a compression check? I am willing to buy any tools to do so, but I have no space or connections to be able to run air here. Can't tow it till the Tahoe is up and running. |
Posted By: carnuck
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 10:59pm
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Compression test is a screw in gauge. If it tests fine (screw in, crank 10 seconds with the coil wire off) then you may have a blown powervalve in the carb or the hose was knocked off/cracked (common due to high heat), allowing massive quantities of fuel to dump in.
------------- Got an Eagle? http://forums.amceaglesden.com" rel="nofollow - http://forums.amceaglesden.com |
Posted By: SKeown
Date Posted: Apr/28/2013 at 11:03pm
Yes, but after thinking about it further I would do the following. Unplug the coil wire then crank the motor over listening to the rythum, if you haven't noticed damage to one of the plugs and while cranking there isn't a noticable break in the rythum (like it speeds up at a certain interval) you can kind of discount a damaged piston. In your case get someone to listen that understands what to listen for. You'll need to replace the plugs for that, I would switch banks so the foulded plugs are on the side that was obviousely firing before. If that goes well, put a little muscle into all the intake bolts, clean the goop off the valve cover and reinstall with a new gasket. The last thing before restarting is to clean the oil off the plug wires, I would do that in the kitchen sink using hot water and dish washing detergent. You can do them one at a time if that's more comfortable regarding replacement. make sure they are completely dry before replacing, I would use compressed air or a hair drier for that.
It's hard to diagnose something like you've got over the internet, but I seriousely doubt you actually had more than one completely dead cylinders. I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best. If one cylinder speeds up while doing the cranking test, then go ahead and perform a compression test to establish which one it is before proceeding with anything else. O'Reily loans compression testers with a deposit.
SKeown
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jcisworthy wrote:Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Apr/29/2013 at 1:00am
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You need to purchase a gauge, something like this: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/EQU1/3612.oap?pt=N0717 This is about $30.00 at O'Rielly's and is probably pretty good. It has a rubber line and fitting you cajn screw into the spark plug hole and leave it there long enough to free up your hands and a button to release the reading so you can make a second one. Once installed it is no more different then disconnection the high tension lead from your coil so the engine does not run and then crank it over a couple of turns and then see what is read. There are nominal values specified pretty much for most motors and a generic statement that says if the readings very by more than "Some" percent from cylinder to cylinder there is probably a wear problem with the rings. The engine is an air pump and the cylinders pump air, providing the seal is good. And what is the seal, a head gasket, the rings on the piston and the valves. If the value is not correct what can you do to determine what is going on? A head gasket will generally be one of two kinds of failures, going bad between two cylinders so what is going on with one is going on with the one next to it. Or blows out between the cylinder and a water passage. I have seen exhaust come out through a radiator cap or water gets into the oil and everything looks milky. If you see something like that something has to come apart to verify it. The other two, rings and valves. If compression is low, squirt some motor oil through the spark plug hole into the piston. And test again. If compression is better the oil probably helped worn rings to seal better so the rings are a problem. If compression is not better, it is probably a valve. Those are the basics. if the pistons are broken you really can't tell anything using squirting oil. Still everything has to come apart to find out. This is a basic tool that gives basic information and is all I have ever used or needed. Good luck Oh! What are nominal values? On most general purpose engines something around 120# would be nominal with something around 90# indicating wear and something higher indicating probably normal. Each engine will have a specific reference number . For the most part it is not that important unless you are actually looking for it. For the most part what ever one cylinder reads, they all should be close to that if things are o.k. I one built an engine that measure 240# at crank with a cam shaft. Quite rare, but it had 13:1 compression. ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: carnuck
Date Posted: Apr/29/2013 at 1:14am
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http://youtu.be/9U8iNb21arw
------------- Got an Eagle? http://forums.amceaglesden.com" rel="nofollow - http://forums.amceaglesden.com |
Posted By: scott
Date Posted: Apr/29/2013 at 4:10pm
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Nightmare, if the Risolene you put in the engine is the stuff that is the consistency of kerosene & comes in a quart can, that could be the source of your problems. It thins the oil a lot, & will let oil get past the valve guides & rings. Put new plugs in it, drain the oil Risolene mix, install a new oil filter, refill with a quality 10-30 oil & fire it up & see what happens. I'd probably add a bottle of zinc too.
I'd never put Risolene in any engine I cared about.
|
Posted By: budryzer
Date Posted: Apr/29/2013 at 4:34pm
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X2 on the last THREE responses:) Over the web it is paramount that you attempt each test as described by a fellow forum member and please respond with the results. I had also asked for a vacuum test before ,but if you have already started pulling engine parts then please try to get a compression tester. It's only a o-ringed hose with a guage that you put in place of a spark plug. If you youtube it for any engine, it will show you how to do it. The reason being......... If compression is acurrate than we need to look at valve seals and oil supply/return issues:) ------------- 1968AMX Stroked 369 "UNCLE SAM" tribute 04 H2 04 BMW 325 A/W 95 Ultralight Hobbycopter 85 CR500 x 2 and 13 other open Class Bikes 77 Hercules Chinook Flt Lead Prev 1970AMX390/4spSonicw/mask&3Gremm's |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Apr/29/2013 at 4:35pm
I guess I could say the same thing about 5W anything motor oil on a 100 degree day. ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: budryzer
Date Posted: Apr/29/2013 at 4:37pm
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It is possible that the Risolene/Kerosine left in the oil sytem could free up sludge that then gets into the combustion chamber! ------------- 1968AMX Stroked 369 "UNCLE SAM" tribute 04 H2 04 BMW 325 A/W 95 Ultralight Hobbycopter 85 CR500 x 2 and 13 other open Class Bikes 77 Hercules Chinook Flt Lead Prev 1970AMX390/4spSonicw/mask&3Gremm's |
Posted By: Nightmare2013
Date Posted: Apr/30/2013 at 9:30pm
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Alright got the Tahoe out of the way and found the wagoneer's problem gents! I have a collapsed lifter on cylinder one, on the intake side plus my rear oil passage was plugged up with goop. I siphoned out the goop and trying to convince the wife to buy new pushrods and lifters. I actually used that really, really thick risolene stuff. I cannot speculate whether or not that was the cause of all this, but regardless I feel very relieved to know the problem now. I probably won't be singing the same tune if I get the thumbs up and have to yank everything off the top of the jeep. Next question, given the fact that I have to yank the intake to get to the lifters, do I have to pull the distributor and retime it? That would suck. Thank you everyone for all your help! |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Apr/30/2013 at 9:38pm
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If you are letting pulling the distributor out just because your are concerned about re-timing things? Intimidate you a a bit you are being afraid of something that is actually quite simple to do and when you realize that you will definitely feel silly. Now having said that? The answer is NO! ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: Nightmare2013
Date Posted: Apr/30/2013 at 10:08pm
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Uncljohn, I asked just to see. I have never timed a vehicle but I'd sure as heck figure it out one way or another. After being to war several times and returning with two purple hearts and a permanent limp, the only thing that intimidates me any more is midgets due to an irrational phobia. But thank you. I asked this before I opened the chiltons manual and realized I didn't. |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Apr/30/2013 at 10:41pm
I sometimes wonder if repairing these things and going to war don't have a whole lot in common. Except the shooting might be more accurate sometimes. ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: Nightmare2013
Date Posted: Apr/30/2013 at 11:11pm
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The similar parts is the cussing, the craving for alcohol and feeling utterly relieved when it's all done. Out of curiosity I went and checked the others and my exhaust side lifter on cylinder 4 is stuck. Maybe the jeep is getting jealous of the other trucks I just bought. |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: May/01/2013 at 1:23am
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That sound familiar! And while I have not had a cigaret in 5 years, something which in order to continue with is a daily chore to be aware of when I discovered yesterday I have to change another bent push rod. The urge was almost over powering. I think it bent just to get even with me. ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: May/01/2013 at 10:43am
| If it was a SBC, you would have to remove the distributor................but on the AMC V8, no, you do not have to remove it. |
Posted By: Nightmare2013
Date Posted: May/03/2013 at 9:55pm
| Well, the jeep is sold. I looked over everything long and hard and this jeep has had a abused life. So, had a guy tow it away and now talking to a gentleman with a international scout with an amc 401 in it. We'll see how that goes! |