the cam/distributor gear issue
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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47044
Printed Date: Apr/16/2024 at 6:04am
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Topic: the cam/distributor gear issue
Posted By: dane
Subject: the cam/distributor gear issue
Date Posted: Feb/01/2013 at 2:18pm
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After cranking and cranking I finally figured out why my 360 would not run. The cam gear was chewed up and not letting the distributor turn right. I am going to attempt to pull everything off the front of the engine and replace it. I'm going to buy the bulltear matched set that everyone seems to like. I know this seems to be a common problem with amc's. Has anyone else had these issues? Also please feel free to share the do and do nots you have experienced with this... This happened to me one other time with this same engine, but that time it was the distributor gear. I had both gears replaced and an external oiler drilled into the timing cover, and now its happened again, maybe 3-4k miles later...
 ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Replies:
Posted By: 72AMX
Date Posted: Feb/01/2013 at 2:24pm
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You shouldn't have to use an external oiling source to lubricate the gears, I'd advise you to look over the various cam/distributor gear threads on this forum and look at some of the recommendations suggested in them to verify your gears are being properly lubricated before you install your new matched set of gears. |
Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Feb/01/2013 at 3:01pm
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Yes do as 72AMX said and search. Some of the gear issue is the way the chain cam gear is machined to let oil tru to the dist. gears but cant see that because of your oil line.
The other was bad timing covers did you buy a replacement?
Dave ---- ------------- TSM = Technical Service Manual 75 Gremlin X v8 for sale 70 Javelin 360/auto drag car 70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/01/2013 at 3:40pm
I have not ordered parts yet. ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
FuzzFace2 wrote:Posted By: pipefactory
Date Posted: Feb/01/2013 at 4:04pm
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Hey guys my 1st post in a while. not trying to go off topic here but, a friend and I are building a 390 stroked to 401 for a car that my interest everybody that knows about AMC's, group 19, 390 engines. More of that later.
As to your problem, I've found as others have said about oil holes not lining up with cam journal oil hole, cam gear oil hole, all the way through to the distributor drive gear. in the end when you make sure all passages and holes line up. I like to look in through the hole where the fuel pump bolts on while spinning the oil pump with a drill. You should see oil pumping out of 4 holes in the dist drive gear. Also as to the engine we are building we found that the 2 piece fuel pump ecentric was giving us .010 runout on the dist drive gear. something to look for. By the way the car I'm talking about is the one a couple of AMC engineers were using as a test car for things like group 19 cams, cross rams and other speed parts. But what is interesting is it's a 1967 Rebel that was running a 390 (in 1967), 4 speed and cross ram. It'll be running the original cross ram that Vic Edelbrock made which we think was the 1st one built.
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Posted By: ccowx
Date Posted: Feb/01/2013 at 5:57pm
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Cool car, Pipefactory! I am a big fan of the various Group 19 stuff and a prototype is neat! A 67 with a 390?! How much like a production engine is it? As for the cam gear issues, I have fought this battle myself. As the gentlmen above say, oiling holes through the gear from the oil galleries need to be checked. It would not hurt to actually take a dremel tool or similar and make sure they are cleaned out front to back and watch for oil coming through. After that, check the timing cover and fuel pump eccentric. Since you did add the external line I would pay special attention to the timing cover. If the timing cover lines up and the factory oiling holes are good, you should be fine. Factory motors ran 100,000+ miles without a hiccup so the engineering is sound. You should have no issues if all the factory systems are working as per spec, even with two mismatched used gears. Ideal of course is a new matched set but it should be fine regardless. Chris
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Posted By: amxess
Date Posted: Feb/01/2013 at 11:26pm
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If you replaced the distributor gear with a new one bought from a Chrysler dealer or elswhere in last few years (I'm thinking last 12 or so), that is where most of the cam gear issues came from. These aftermarket distributor gears which even Chrysler sold, were not the same as the originals and ate up the stock cam gears (much harder metal than the cam gear and maybe mismatched also). We did a few AMC motors with these new distributor gears and all chewed up the cam gear-some within a couple of days to a few thousand miles. Went back to using old used original distributor gears and had no problem. Think after the problems became known, most stopped selling them and everyone was scrambling for old good originals. Bulltear then came out with a matched set of cam/distributor gears a few years ago and that's all I will use now and had no problem with theirs.
Also use the "Rollmaster" timing chain gear sets as they have no oiling issues to the cam gear.
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Posted By: pipefactory
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 6:18am
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2004/11/01/hmn_feature13. - http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2004/11/01/hmn_feature13.html
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Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 7:57am
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I am not sure I can add anything constructive to this thread. I have been more or less active in the AMC end of the hobby since 1979 or so and this has been an on going issue. I guess I have been under the impression it is in part a function of matching the distributor gear to the one on the cam and seems to show up after a rebuild. It is either as mentioned some form of assembly problem when putting the engine together after the fact. (The oil holes and I can not remember that being part of the issue) but probably a function of machining heads and moving the intake manifold around which then creates an issue with the height of the distributor in relationship to the cam thus changing the mesh of the gears. And this is aggravated as memory serves by a new cam gear and possibly and old distributor gear. I do not remember a satisfactory solution other than new parts for both or re-using the OEM parts and being careful of where the distributor ends up. I do not think that additional oil line did anything constructive although it is a popular addition to the engine. It seems to me that the biggest contributor to the problem was and may still be cam shaft end play. It can move foreword and backwards with in the engine block. How far it can move must be a function of gear mesh to the distributor at one end and the limit at the back of the block on the other and valve train loading on the cam shaft lobes contributing to it. MY 1970 TSM , one of about 6 I own indicates that cam shaft end play is controlled by load placed on the cam shaft by the oil pump and distributor drive gear. The helical cut of the gear holds the cam shaft sprocket thrust face against the cylinder sprocket thrust face thus the camshaft end play is zero during operation. As these are all wear points and in some case a function of replacement parts and/or machining and also where the failure takes place. The problem is probably aggravated by an aggressive cam and valve train loading, the position of the distributor vertically 'specially if some one has drilled a hole in a distributor drive gear in order to install it or or possibly excessive head machining which may end up moving the intake manifold around or modifications to the oil pump. And as many of these parts wear and are replaced, some with aftermarket reproduction parts available since the company has gone out of business. I personally doubt oiling has much to do with it. I rebuilt my 390 many years ago and do not remember too much about what was used. The oil pump gears came with the rebuild kit, the distributor was used over again, the cam came from Iskenderian, the cam drive sprocket was aftermarket as was the chain and the oil is 20W50. And I never had a problem. An no, I never installed any of the oil line modifications. I think cam walk is the biggest offender of this. How you stop it don't know. ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 8:16am
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This has been covered many times before. Unfortunatly the little "search" button at the top has never worked on this forum for me very well to be able to find this kind of information. http://theamcforum.com/forum/timing-chain_topic45911_page2.html Did you happen to put a new timing cover on it the first time around? |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 8:21am
If you built any AMC engines in your lifetime, you would know just how untrue, incorrect and uninformed this information really is. You really have to stop putting those Chevies in your AMCs because it's clouding your memory. AMCs have the distributors mounted to the timing cover and are not prone to the common Chevy issue you reference. Please think about the words before you type. If you cannot add facts to this discussion or at least a common sence, defendable opinnion, then please see your first line in your reply. I'm sorry, but this is getting on my nerves!!!!!   ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: AMC instigator
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 8:30am
| I will just add what I like to do when assembling from the cam out. I put a dab of white lithium grease in the mating face of each part to see where the oil trail has to go, one part at a time to be sure the trail lines up and modify as necessary then move on to the next part, till they are all in line. Ricks question about having purchased a replacement cover last time, is that it may be one of the bad ones, in which case the problem can still return unless that is discarded. SH |
Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 8:35am
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Steve, As Far as I am concerned if you don't like what I write, don't read it. The information as to the position of the distributor no matter how it got there is valid information on any engine. As is the location of the drive gear when drilling holes in things to mount them. And yes I have built many engines including AMC engines and they have all ran well. And if I choose to install a Chevy "Engine in my AMC car it is my choice and for my reasons and I frankly do not have to justify them to you or anyone one else. And with the availability of modern parts, modern design and modern technology it beats the heck out of jury rigging a 30 year old design into operation. Re-engining things is state of the art today. Commonly used through out the hobby including AMC The bottom line it is my car and I can do anything I want to it with in my capability. And frankly I am having a heck of a good time pulling it off. It is one of 5 AMC cars I own and Chevy engine or not, it is still an AMC car like it or not and whether you do is of no concern to me. So back off. ------------- 70 390 5spd Donohue 74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
Posted By: scott
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 8:42am
I agree, the search button doesn't work at all on this site. But, when you click the search button & the spot to put the search term in pops up, there is small hard to see "advanced search" lettering. Click on that & the advanced search usually works pretty well. I've posted before that the advanced search should be the default search, the basic seach button should be eliminated.
I have to agree with Steve on uncljohn's posts.
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Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 8:44am
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All this is good info and will help eliminate the issues for you. UJ" The information as to the position of the distributor no matter how it got there is valid information on any engine." Reply:
Only engines that have a distribubor mounted through the intake manifold have the distributor position move when things are milled. Ignore all other advice to the contrary. That is a Chevy thing.
Nothing against Chevies or what you want to put in your cars. This is an AMC forum and the OP. came here with an AMC question and wants an AMC answer. I'm not a purist at all. It's just the OP. asked about an AMC and got a Chevy answer. Another thing I could add is that you must run a gasket under the distributor because it not only seals the flange but raises the heaight. I posted here in the spring in how to check the alignment on the oil passages and the cam gear when installed in an engine. A small bolt or stud is placed into the cam oil hole and some white out or white paint is dabbed on the end. The cam gear is slid into place and that will mark the spot where the oil hole lines up with the gear. You'd be suprised at how far off many cam gears are. A groove can be enlarged or ground to match things up. Many quality style sets have issues like this or casting flash in the passage that directs oil to the front dist. drive gear. Edelbrocks are famous for having the groove extend beyond the fron of the cam journal and that kills/bleeds oil pressure off the gear. They usually have to be welded up. You have to check everything because if you assume the high dollar stuff is going to be correct??? Remember what assume does!!! ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 9:08am
GenII and GenIII AMC V-8 engines, the heads and intake have nothing to do with the distributor relative to milling or anything else for that matter as it goes through the timing cover which attaches to the front of the engine block. Presumably the GenI Dizzy goes through the intake behind the air cleaner (haven't taken one apart myself but assume that is the case) but that is not the subject of thread.  ------------- Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development 
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Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 9:59am
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Wow! Thanks for all the info.
I do not remember for sure but I do believe we used the original(OE) timing cover back in 1997 when it was rebuilt. ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 2:43pm
1 - Just rplace the bad gears with Bulltear matched set and check the chain cam gear or a replacement set to make sure the oil path is open and reuse the timing cover you have.
2 - do the above and replace your cover with a known good OE cover.
3 - Do #1 and replace the cover with a Bulltear cover that has been checked to make sure it is machined right.
Why I and now others are saying timing cover is there were some replcement covers made that were made wrong. You could buy the covers thru Dodge/Jeep dealers and aftermarket stores like Summit or many of the 4x4 stores. From what I hear it took a long time to get all the bad covers off the market.
Part of the issue was some bought covers and did not use them for years or sold them many years later. Or lets say some one like you bought a cover because the oil pump area was in poor shape when rebuilding the motor. It takes a few months for the rebuild, you use the car on & off for a few more months/years and then it stops running 1 day. You lay the car up for years and then get into it again or say you sell the car. The buyer sells the motor and now the next person has a motor with a bad cover or you if you are getting back to it do not know you might have a bad cover.
That is why from the start when you found the bad gears I asked about the cover if it was replaced.
Oh just thought of something. What dist. are you using I cant remember if you said it was replaced or not. Yes some ussies with them too.
Dave ---- ------------- TSM = Technical Service Manual 75 Gremlin X v8 for sale 70 Javelin 360/auto drag car 70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car |
Posted By: Charles Smiley
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 3:21pm
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Malformed timing gear covers, Cam/Dist gear sets and roller chain sets with mis-drilled oiling paths are all to blame. All courtesy from Korean and Chinese knock off parts that started showing up in the 1990s. Same with fake grade-8 bolts from the same crooked people.
I went through all three of the issues listed above a few years ago.
As an engineer that had many of my electronic designs manufactured in Chinese factories (by my employer) I can tell you that you can never trust them. They will gradually slip in sub-standard parts and materials into the build instructions to shave fractions of a penny - and they could care less if it injures people, kills your pets of makes your children sick.
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Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 5:35pm
You may have a issue like this one. I rebuilt entire different engine for a Jeep guy because he kept eating up distributor gears. He even ran a extra oil line to spray oil on the gear but it only helped for like a thousand miles. I told him that the cam timing gear oil slot was probably bad. He didn't care, he wanted a new engine. The picture shows what I found in his old rebuilt engine. This is a Edelbrock branded timing gear. You can see that the oil slot was never opened up. If you pull the timing cover, fit the oil pump gears and distributor to the cover off of the engine to make sure there is no binding. Then fit the timing cover to the engine but don't seal it up. Leave the oil pump gears out and slide the distributor in. You should be able to slide the distributor in with no binding and you shouldn't have to force it down all the way. Then put the distributor out and put the oil pump gears and stab the distributor again. And Again, it should go in easy with forcing it. Last step would be to pull it back apart, seal everything back up and put it back together again. Be sure to pack the oil pup gears with petroleum jelly. Also, coat the distributor with petroleum jelly before finally installing it. |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Feb/02/2013 at 11:37pm
If this has been answered in the past I apologize but...is there any way to check the mesh of the cam and distributor gears? If they are not in 'alignment', how do you correct it? I can see multiple gaskets if the distributor has to rise but what if it needs to drop?  ------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/03/2013 at 5:58am
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I don't know how you could tell without blueprints and a checking fixture. Dropping would be accomplished by turning the coller down on the distridutor. That being said, I didn't mean to imply that multiple gaskets be used to shim the position but rather tha one single one should be in place. Your shimming idea would work if needed but I would use bushings instead of paper gaskets for that. I think the problem stems from mismatching gear angles and wear patterns more than anything else. The bad covers had bore holes that were off angle. That is why you should be very carefull when removing a stuck or corroded distributor housing from the bore. You will have no way of knowing if the top of the cover got tweeked. Aftermarket non-factory gears often do not match the proper material or tooth profile and this adds to the problem when we change those. A matched set of used gears with a good wear pattern or a matched and lapped set of new gears from a trusted vendor are the only safe bet. Same goes for any cove, whether used or new. If you had to us any force to remove a corroded in distributor housing, then the cover would be highly suspect, even if the pump cavity checked out fine. The top of the housing that locates the distributor is very easy to distort. We are talking only a few thousandths before the issue arises. Other factors that lead to failure of the gears are installation of the cam nose washer reversed or using the wrong washer and installing the two peice fuel pump drive peces incorrectly or with the cast spacer peice backwards. I preffer the one peice fuel cams but they do wear more and are harder to find. Most of our timming sets are really made in the same factories regardless of the brand. This means the same issues have to be looked for no matter what you pay. Edelbrock ought to be ashamed for what they put out though. They are actually just a cloyes with better machine finish. They all need the oil groove end closed up and most have the blocked oil passage as in the photos. Attention during assembly and car during diss-assembly is what cures this issue all the time. On that John and I can agree totaly.!!! ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Feb/03/2013 at 9:05am
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The gears are not Hypoid type gears so, the depth of the distributor gear meshed with the cam gear is not that critical with. If it was that critical, there wouldn't be .050" end play in most of the OE distributors. Of coarse, you want it to be centered as much as possible. What is critical is the engagement with the oil pump shaft. You don't want the distributor shaft clamped down so tight to the oil pump shaft that there is a load on it. The distributor gasket helps shim the distributor to the oil pump shaft as well as sealing it up. As mentioned before the issue with the early aftermarket covers is with the bottom driver's side locating dowel hole. They were off causing the whole timing cover to be shifted the wrong direction causing a bind when you stabbed the dizzy in. 
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Posted By: 401amx1969
Date Posted: Feb/03/2013 at 1:01pm
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And also running oil pressure at 70 psi and over will make life expectancy of the gears shorter. Yves
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Posted By: Charles Smiley
Date Posted: Feb/03/2013 at 1:21pm
| I think you might see the gear mesh thru the fuel pump port -- when the engine is on an engine stand. |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/04/2013 at 9:31am
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I think changing the mesh on an original or used set also can cause issues. The same way it does on used rear end gears. It's nearly impossible to match the original locations once major componnants have been swapped out. That why it's always recommended to replace the gears in matched sets. There is a wear pattern that builds over time and even a new correct gear on a used good gear will start to build a new wear pattern. that means run in and material loss at the least. If they are close and there is enough material to accomodate the loss, you COULD???? be fine. Matched used or new are the safe way to go. On a good non-damaged correctly made cover that is. You are correct in that the depth is not as important on helical cut, (not hypoid) gears sets. But, change the running position at all on a used set and the issue rears its ugly head again. Depth can easily be checked by measuring the old part as installed on the original cover when out. Match that with the new parts before install. A jig could be mad to locate off the dowel holes to check the other dimensions. A simple plate with slot to accomodate a correctly positioned distributer when installed wouls fuffice. depth angle and center could be checked this way. I wish I had access to some of the machines I used to because I could sell a bunch of test kits cheap. Anybody with a mill game for making them?? ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: 74Bubblefender
Date Posted: Feb/04/2013 at 10:02am
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13 teeth on the cam, 13 teeth on the distributor. Gear teeth always stay on the same gear tooth. Change it up too many times by removing the distributor and loosing position or keep installing new distributors and you will see that the gear teeth on the cam get thinner and thinner as they set a new wear pattern. That is how an OEM condition would worsen. In the aftermarket it has gotten to be a mess. Hardened gears on the distributor, gear tooth profiles at the wrong pitch, rough finish on the gears, cheap chinese knock offs of cheap taiwanese timing covers (which were cheap knock offs to begin with). Some resellers dont give a rats A55 to what they sell you as long as you buy it and shut up. I cant even count the times a call has come in where a customer has bought an ebay HEI and destroyed their cam gear. They all say the same thing "But the guy who sold it said they never heard of this issue" Its frusterating and really kills the confidence in the build when this crap happens. ------------- We are just about to forge new AMC V8 crankshafts.. please check here http://www.bulltear.com/forums/showthread.php?19564 |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/04/2013 at 10:31am
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OK, just ordered the matched cam/dist gear set from Bulltear. I'm going to tear the front of the engine down later this week or over the weekend. I'm going to look at the timing gears also while I'm in there. If I remember correctly it was a Cloyes set that was put in around 1997. Is it obvious when the oil passages are drilled wrong??? Can somebody post the correct and incorrect way it can be drilled? ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/04/2013 at 10:36am
I'm going with #1 for now. I am running a mallory unilite.
------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: Charles Smiley
Date Posted: Feb/04/2013 at 11:11am
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Yes. This problem has been spread over a 10 year period. I remember reading lengthy threads about it around 2006 or so - and they were already several years running. The bad stuff is still lurking out there. Even gears sold by cam and distributer manufacturers were bad. And they claimed they always inspected and tested the hardness. It got to where you couldn't trust any of them. I spent lots of time changing one suspect part at a time and I still had the problem. An old pessimistic saying in engineering - "It's never just one thing" came to mind and I wound up changing everything all at once. That's not good 'science' since you're supposed to change one variable at a time. I'll never know which fix really did the trick, but the problem didn't come back.
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Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/06/2013 at 1:18pm
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All I need now is a harmonic balancer puller and I'll be ready to pull the timing cover and take a look. Does anyone make a puller that you do not have to wedge or block something in the flywheel/flexplate? ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Feb/06/2013 at 2:37pm
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I assume you are having a problem with the engine turning over while trying to turn the screw on the puller to pull the balancer off? You could pull a plug and use a piston stop to block the rotation. My puller has a square ear on one side for an additional wrench to keep it from turning. ------------- Ron Frost marne1ancient @ gmail.com 910 nine two two 0563 "There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague |
Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Feb/06/2013 at 6:35pm
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Just go and buy a $10.00 Harbor Freight Harmonic balancer puller. Do not use the the 3 jaw type. A Cloyes set is better than most so the oil passage to the distributor gear should be OK. Here is a picture of the oil passage from the cam through the timing gear.  Here is the Cloyes and a cam that I had laying around. I ground off a drill bit to use as a pointer and stick it on the cam hole. As you can see, Cloyes on this particular cam is ok. All parts have to be checked no mater what the brand name is. 
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Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Feb/06/2013 at 9:34pm
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X2. I popped a 343 blanacer ring right off the hub with a claw type puller. Admittedly the balancer was pretty worn but it was wasted after the outer ring popped off. Any parts store has a decent puller for around $30 ------------- Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development
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Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/06/2013 at 9:36pm
Got it out tonight, Yeah it's toast! Rented a balancer puller from the parts store. The timing cover appears to be OE. The pins were still in the block so I'm feeling pretty good about everything. Hopefully it was just a bad gear!?------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: Charles Smiley
Date Posted: Feb/06/2013 at 9:44pm
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SC397.
That litttle milled pocket on the back of the gear was rotated so much on my cloyes set that the path for oil was eclipsed about 90-percent. They must have made mine at 8:01-AM after a 3 day weekend.
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Posted By: Charles Smiley
Date Posted: Feb/06/2013 at 9:45pm
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Dane.
I hope you drop the pan and give everything a good clean up. Mine had lots of crud in it. None of it got part the filter though.
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Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Feb/07/2013 at 4:09pm
I don't have any experience in disassembling corroded aluminum components (distributors). Any recommendations as to how to do it? A little heat, lots of Kroil, both, ????? ------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Feb/07/2013 at 6:12pm
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Posted By: Charles Smiley
Date Posted: Feb/07/2013 at 6:56pm
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Yeah, I've bought Cloyes since about 1970.
It's possible that it was the cam and how it indexed to the gear and not the gear itself. But I had no way to compare it to other parts at the time. I just milled the cavity to fit the situation.
I also found several Engle cams that had the "snout" much longer than stock and the front screw was nearly touching the back of the water pump cavity in the timing cover. So if the cam walks forward a tiny bit, the star-points on the screw dig into the aluminum and the screw jacks its way out and blows a hole into the water pump.
Scary stuff huh? So I started smoothing the star points off the bolt - thinner washer - checking the clearance with play-dough and adopting an anti-walk plate for the cam henceforth.
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Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/09/2013 at 4:06pm
   ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/09/2013 at 4:08pm
Looks like I need a new cover also  ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/09/2013 at 5:27pm
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Why, are you sure those are cracks? Many have that pattern and its actually from the casting process. Clean it up and see if they are really cracks before condemning it. The damage to the seal bore is cosmetic. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: 401amx1969
Date Posted: Feb/09/2013 at 5:35pm
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Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Feb/09/2013 at 6:45pm
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X3
Dave ---- ------------- TSM = Technical Service Manual 75 Gremlin X v8 for sale 70 Javelin 360/auto drag car 70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/09/2013 at 8:53pm
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yeah, I may just go ahead and use it. I don't really want to buy a new one unless I have to. I just want to get it on the road for now, then I may go back and overhaul/rebuild the whole thing later. ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 9:50am
Went to press the new dist gear on and the role pin hole doesn't line up with my distributor. Grrr  I'm running a mallory unilite, I knoticed the old gear had an extra set of holes. Is this common?
------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: amc67rogue
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 10:00am
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Did you try turning it 180 deg. to see if it lines up that way ? ------------- Keith Coggins 67Rogue X code |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 10:27am
Yes, It didn't ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 10:54am
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I hope it's alright to drill the dist shaft to fit the new gear? I took it to a mechanic/machinist thats what he is going to do. ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: Charles Smiley
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 12:05pm
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I went through that pin/hole issue several times. AMC may have changed the pin size when they went from Delco to Prestolite and finally Motorcraft distributers - somewhere along that trail. If there are still independent distributer rebuilding shops around they might know what's up.
If you drill it don't overdo it or it might add chatter and spark scatter.
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Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 2:41pm
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Be careful of phasing the gear correctly also. Cances are your mallor had phasing issues and they were corrected by moving the gear. Find a good used original and copy the drive tang position relative to the new hole you drill. Many aftermarket distributoers had the gear indexed incorrectly. Set a known good used original distributor with #1 in the corect position and the rotor pointing to the spot the TSM shows as #1. Note the drive position on the end and make the new hole in the new shaft in the same place. If you don't, you will end up with tuning issues where you chase spark timing and can't get it adjusted except in a narrow range that won't allow factory setting. The problem is the rotor is too far away from the cap contact at the proper firing poin. Yoy will only be able to get the engine to run correctly in a very narrow range of distributor rotation before the spark gets erratic from jumping the too wide gap in the cap. There should be a dimple on the gear to help. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 3:21pm
The gear is from bulltear, they are suppose to be the best? I do not see a dimple? Now I'm getting concerned.  We were just going to press it on and drill a new hole thru the shaft, thru the pin hole on the new gear? The old gear had been drilled to fit the original shaft hole...
------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 3:39pm
I'm worried too. No driven gear I've ever seen was a press fit to the distributor shaft. Measure the shaft and the inside of the gear. The shaft should be .491" if I remember correctly. ------------- Ron Frost marne1ancient @ gmail.com 910 nine two two 0563 "There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague |
Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 3:58pm
Steve, I'm not sure changing the position of the gear on the shaft affects rotor phasing to the cap. The point at which the ignition fires is relative to the position of the breaker plate and points cam. The cam moves relative to the shaft based on RPM and the weights and springs, and the breaker plate moves with the vacuum advance (if used). Changing the gear position on the bottom of the shaft will only require you to move the whole distributor -- breaker plate, housing, and cap by 1/2 tooth (~14 distributor degrees) to achieve what you had before, but won't change the position of the rotor relative to the points cam/breaker plate -- they're still in the same place. I think you actually have to change the mechanical relation of the points cam to the shaft (different parts/weights) or change the "at rest" position of the breaker plate to affect/correct phasing. Or... maybe I'm just an idiot. ------------- Ron Frost marne1ancient @ gmail.com 910 nine two two 0563 "There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague |
Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 4:03pm
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Do not drill a new hole in shaft, turn gear 90 and measure distance from washer to hole on shaft, subtract .010 and drill a hole i gear, then put gear on and drill through gear thru shaft and make new hole on other side of gear.
------------- http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 4:30pm
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That is correct Tony. You don't want the two holes in the same plane or too close together. And, In some applications with late model brackets and Saginaw pumps, there is simply no room to turn the distributor that extra 14 degrees to get correct phasing. That is why 90 degrees of turn on the new gear is a good tactic. It will put the new pin hole in the correct place and out of plane with the old one. But, be careful if there are already multiple holes in the shaft. Max of two spread apart by ninety and off plane with each other. If that is not possible because of multiple rebuilds or gear changes then you have to replace the shaft at least. You don't want to shear one off. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 4:40pm
------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 4:46pm
We were going to put the new hole in the shaft 90 deg from the other original hole. The old/bad gear that was on there had 2 sets of holes at different heights or lengths from the teeth? I think it was modified to fit back when I had this issue before in 99 or so? Dont remember, I had a mechanic do it for me?? So bottom line if I drill the shaft it wont work? I just wasnt real enthused about drilling into my brand new dist gear! Why the he*l dont these just lineup anyway? Just to make it a PITA? ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 4:48pm
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The shaft with two holes will be weakened, need to drill the gear. ------------- http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 4:51pm
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The reason there is no hole is so you can drill your own and miss a precious one. Should be a nice slip on and not a press it. Look for burrs at the old shaft holes. Dress them with a fine stone or file. Most gears I've seen had a single hole on one side. You use it as a drill guide to go through the shaft and out the other side of the gear. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 6:28pm
If you want to know what year the timing cover was cast, there is a date code near the eyebrow in the inside. |
Posted By: 74Bubblefender
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 7:04pm
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Never worry about where to put the gears on that is what rotating the distributor is all about. Phasing has everything to do with the keyway on the rotor and the rotor ends...not the gear and rotor. ------------- We are just about to forge new AMC V8 crankshafts.. please check here http://www.bulltear.com/forums/showthread.php?19564 |
Posted By: 74Bubblefender
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 7:05pm
------------- We are just about to forge new AMC V8 crankshafts.. please check here http://www.bulltear.com/forums/showthread.php?19564 |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 10:18pm
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Guess we will drill the gear. The mallory pin hole is not centered to accept their gear that they sell is what I have read!? Kind of silly, should be if you buy a distributor for an amc V8 an amc V8 distributor gear should go right on it without any modification! Sucks to buy a $130 gear set and have to go drilling on one of them right away. I almost just bought a new HEI distributor today just because this is BS! But that unilite cost me a pretty penny back in the day so I'm going stay with it for now! I'm starting to remember why I just stored this car away 9 years ago now! ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Feb/11/2013 at 10:48pm
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Here is something to watch out for. I can't remember which location Matt Bulltear used. This is from a couple years ago on another site............. Learn something new every day... I went to swap distributor gears from a old Duraspark (motocraft) distributor to a Mallory dual point distributor and it wouldn't fit. The hole for the roll pin is off by half a hole. I got to comparing and it looks like they moved the hole about .060" when they went to the Duraspark distributors. I will have to dig out a Prestolite distributor and see what it looks like.  The one on the left is from a points distributor. The one on the right is from the Duraspark distributor.  |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Feb/12/2013 at 5:47am
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I took a look in my '70 TSM and was surprised at how little information there is on distributor rebuilding. I looked in an '81 GM SM and it addresses removing the gear, but not re-installing it. I looked in a Chrysler '67 FSM and it has not only a procedure for removing and installing a gear, but a specification for aligning the gear with the rotor. Why, I don't know. The gist of the procedure though is to slip the new gear on, align a tooth with the rotor, use a feeler gauge to set the endplay of the shaft, and drill a new hole 90 degrees from the original hole. FWIW.
------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: amc67rogue
Date Posted: Feb/12/2013 at 7:18am
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IIRC the delco and the prestolite dist. shafts are the same dia. the motorcraft is different . ------------- Keith Coggins 67Rogue X code |
Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/14/2013 at 3:39pm
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Finally got the gear on the distributor, hope to fire it up tonight. Crossing my fingers! ------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |
Posted By: Charles Smiley
Date Posted: Feb/14/2013 at 4:51pm
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It's funny how seemingly simple stuff balloons into giant projects. Not only are these cars old, they are also orphans making it a strange blend of suffering and then satisfaction when you get it figured out.
Nowadays, all my neighbors just buy a new car at the first sign of trouble. They get new ones about every 2 years. Usually hideous, foreign "me-too" type disposable cars. See what they are missing out on?
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Posted By: dane
Date Posted: Feb/14/2013 at 9:16pm
 got it fired up tonight, running pretty good for sitting for 10 years! test drive this weekend!!! Thanks for all the help!------------- 1974 Matador Coupe Brougham aka "The Mat" 1975 Matador Coupe Oleg Cassini Edition 1969 Javelin SST (Project Car) - SOLD but not forgotten |