I am in need of a shop that can bush my stock rods from my 68 390. Long of the short, without getting into a ton of detail here is that got my pistons and pins from Bulltear and my engine shop (in the rebuilding biz for over 60 years) is not happy with the pins sizing in the rod. He wants a pressed fit and the pins are able to be pushed out by hand. All my rods are in excellent shape and within factory spec coming from a 65k car that my mother drove as a daily driver. If I can't find a shop that can bush my rods I will need a pin that is 1.0001" as the pin we got from Bulltear is 1.000". Matt could not find anything on his end.

My machine shop, Haledon Auto has done motors for everyone I know from my fathers generation in the hobby and has a stellar reputation. The owner told me that everyone he knows that was in the business that bushed rods is closed up. Help

I am all ears. As always thanks in advance for any help you may have to offer.

Shawn

Are the pistons full float?

Sleeving them means you have two surfaces that can creep and I'd try and stay away from that.

There is a local marine machine shop in Mesa that bushed a set for one of the engines we did a couple of years ago and the cost was around $200 IIRC.  I suspect you may have an issue with your Machine Shop telling you they won't warranty the engine if the rods aren't bushed because they aren't as brave and pioneering as Tony!

 

Did you get it straitened out? I am very curious as to how its going and am rooting for you personally because I heard your story.

I am up against hard deadlines with the baby on the way and the filming for TV of the trip home from the hospital in the AMX with the baby for a soon to be aired new performance automotive show. If the baby comes and the car is not done we have come up with a work around. I can tell you this much, when this TV show does air you will see quite a bit of AMX time and exposure for our brand. After meeting with the producers of this show (I have been helping to get this show to market for a few years) and telling them my story they were all over it. Now I just need paint, and my motor and we are on our way. 

If not for the AMC Forum and its generous members , and the support of my family none of this would be possible. My cousin has been driving this project with me since the 4th of July and we are so close to being done.

I am not sure what you are referring to that bushing the rods will cause problems. If done right it is no more or less problematic than non bushed rods.

And as Tony stated, you should now run the pins fully floating as we discussed last week so make sure there is clearance for the pins to float when they bush them and use the lock rings that came with the pistons.  It will make a very nice setup that will outlast your ownership of the car.

 When the factorys overshot dimensions on the rods they dipped the ends in copper/tin to obtain proper size. We're hearing about successfully running floating pins on steel, the thought makes me cringe. With the more common pin sizes they are availiable in oversizes. My rod's bushings were loose, so I ordered the pistons and pins at .929 and had the rods fitted at .001".

 

 SKeown

 

 

I was only stating that Factory Fords ran unbushed rods on the FE motors and they are always full floating with factory lock rings.  ALL full floating pistons MUST run lock rings whether factory or aftermarket.  A factory rod would rquire material to be removed for the bushing installation unless the custom piston was ordered with a smaller pin size.  That is not the case here.  The OPs' pin size seems to be undersize for a correct 2000lbd press fit and the correct option here for expedience is to hone the rods for a good full float and install as is with clips.  A better option would be to drill a small hole at the top of the rod also and chamfer for oil supply also.  No need to bush these rods at all, just hone.  What is the resistance to running full float on just the rod casting itself?  does everyone think the aluminum at the other end of the pin is harder and more wear resistant????  If you have an aversion to running stock style circle clips then you could use teflon buttons as well.  My Ford 390s and 428s all were happy with this non-bushed as factory supplied setup on cast rods.  Proven system and as Tony stated, works on our AMCs also.  Bush only as a last resort or for a race engine that will see multiple taredowns.  After bushing once, they are easily replaced and honed to size in the race trailer with hand tools and a press.  Heck, it used to be standard practice to purchas pistons and pins as seperate items and the hand fit the pins  individually.  Every mechanic had a piston pin hone set and it was a part of every rebuild or piston service.  In the early 1960s "PIN FITTED PISTON SETS" became the rage as manufacterers heaped out to press fit assemblies that eliminated a manufactering step.  They are cheaper to make but not better.   

 

All the factory FE rods I've seen in the shop have bushed small ends.  We've done a couple 352's, 390's and a 428 this last couple years, and they all came apart with bushed rods that I've changed the bushings out on during the rebuilding process.   They simply get cut out and a new set gets pressed in and sized.  The co-owner of the shop has a 406, we have a couple 428's and some 427 stuff in the shop.   Even the rebuilding books on Ford FE's say that since the FE uses full floating rods, that all the rods were bushed from the factory.  All the FE's I've taken apart had bushed rods, and at least 3 of them were first runs (and TIRED).   The bushings are thin wall, but they are bushings.   The stock spec for the small end is 1.028-1.038 without the bushing, .9752-.9755 with the bushing installed.

 

The pictures I've seen of Ford FE rods all show a bushed rod and the rebuilding books all show a bushed rod, and replacing the bushing during rebuild.  So where does the info come from that FE Fords use steel on steel?  That's a recipe for disaster.

 

 

 Steel on steel is not good, no matter if some have gotten away with it. NASCAR runs rods with no bushings, but the wristpins are casidiam coated and EDM pressure fed oiling. Even with those precautions the rod's small ends are turned blue from the heat.

 

 SKeown 

 

The reason is dissimilar metals.  You can run steel against bronze, steel against aluminum, etc.   You can't run some metals that are similar metallurgically against each other, because they tend to gall themselves together.  If the metals in sliding contact have a similar surface hardness, then high spots (all surfaces have high and low spots) can rub against each other, create heat and then microweld.   With steel against steel this happens to the point that the surfaces gall quickly and sieze.  You can run bronze against bronze, and brass against brass.   You can run very hard surface finished steels against other steels, which is why transmissions work.   Constant lubrication is key, as is proper surface finish. 

 

NASCAR steel rods and pins are finished to a very high level, as are pretty much all the parts in those cars.  They still don't last forever, and you wouldn't do what they do in a passenger car engine.  They definitely DLC coat the pins, which is like running dissimilar metals because of the hardness and polish of the coating.

 

Titanium is especially bad at galling, which is why we DLC or PVD coat titanium valvetrain components.   Running titanium locks against titanium retainers or especially titanium valves usually causes them to stick to each other at disassembly time.  Putting a PVD (usually ceramic) or better yet a DLC coating on the locks stops the microwelding.   Running DLC coating on steel wrist pins stops galling of the pins in the pistons AND the rods.   Even though they run fine in a street performance engine, some of the race stuff uses quite a bit of vacuum in the crankcase, which cuts down on oil windage.   Windage is what typically lubricates the wrist pins, so they tend to chew into the pistons if you don't lubricate them.   If you DLC coat the pins, they lubricate with much less oil.  Putting oil holes on the rods doesn't help there because there isn't windage for the hole to pick up.   

 

Steel against cast iron can work, because the metallurgy is different.   Cast iron self lubricates to a degree because of the graphite in the matrix, which is why it's a good block material. 

 

In engine building, it's all about the package.   You build for specific goals and intended use.   We call it the 90% rule at our shop.  What the engine will be used for 90% of the time dictates the build.  

"

We used to do small chevies with stock rods to 8000 rpm for hrs and just the drilled hole at top was enough oil for it, remember the pin and rod are not the same hardness. 

In the end its what your machinist is comfortable with, my guy in Albuquerque was an aircraft machinist and his stuff was spot on. 

I personally would not bush a stock rod, for one the small end strength is compromised and the cost just does not make sense for the aftermarket you can get.