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Disc brake conversion

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: Suspension, Steering, Brakes & Wheels
Forum Description: What makes it stop, turn, and smooths the ride
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42114
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 4:41am
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Topic: Disc brake conversion
Posted By: easyandy
Subject: Disc brake conversion
Date Posted: Aug/03/2012 at 7:24pm
Hello out there in AMC land!

I own a 1965 Rambler American 440H. I am looking to put disc brakes on her. I have checked with APD and Galvins and they sell a kit for $800-$1000. I'm thinking I can order new spindles, rotors, calipers, for a later model AMC piecemeal and they should be much cheaper and bolt right up. Any advice for what year/model to look for? I was thinking later 70's Matador or Concord. Also, would I need a differant master cylinder? Any help is greatly appreciated!



Replies:
Posted By: ramblinrev
Date Posted: Aug/03/2012 at 8:20pm
Search the Forum for "disc brake conversion" using the search box in the upper right of the Forum main page. Many folks have weighed in with good information and experience.

Basically, if you want to use AMC vs. aftermarket, look for the disc set-up from the 79-82 Bendix units from a Spirit or Concord (and perhaps avoid the smaller caliper, 4 cylinder Spirit type), or the Delco units from the '82-83 Concords and Spirits. Components for those two types are readily available and pretty affordable. Both use the same rotors.


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74 Hornet Hatchback X twins (since 1977)
62 American Convertible (still worth the $50 I spent in 1973!) AMCRC #513, AMO #384
70 AMX 360 4-speed (since 1981)


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Aug/03/2012 at 9:13pm
scarebird.com sells very nice adapters. I just put discs on a 63 American. They use late(r)-model (80s, 90s) parts and are pretty much bolt-on. The current adapter apparently clears lower trunnions (eg pre-64's) that I had to grind for.

The online instructions on scarebird.com suck, but the printed ones in the kit are fine.

Personally I'm finding the AMC stuff to be too hard to find, rotors especially.



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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: jroemer
Date Posted: Aug/05/2012 at 10:03am
Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

scarebird.com sells very nice adapters. I just put discs on a 63 American. They use late(r)-model (80s, 90s) parts and are pretty much bolt-on. The current adapter apparently clears lower trunnions (eg pre-64's) that I had to grind for.

The online instructions on scarebird.com suck, but the printed ones in the kit are fine.

Personally I'm finding the AMC stuff to be too hard to find, rotors especially.

Did you have to upgrade to 15" wheels with the scarebird kit ? Jon

-------------
1972 Hornet X two door sedan
1973 Gremlin X V8 conversion
1972 Gremlin X factory V8 car
1972 Hornet SST 2 door sedan


AMO# 9855             


Posted By: idrambler
Date Posted: Aug/05/2012 at 11:32am
I have the Scarebird kit on the front of my 69 AMX running 14 X 7 inch wheels and 235/60-14 tires..
with no problems....I have about 6000 miles on the X since the install.....

I used  ford ranger rotors and gm calipers......


-------------
Jim....AMCRC
Treasure Valley AMC Club, Pres
69 AMX 401/727
74 GremlinX 401/727race only
73 Matador 2dr HT 360/727


Posted By: easyandy
Date Posted: Aug/05/2012 at 6:54pm
Thanks for all the advice everyone! I might just go the scarebird route.  I'm starting on the bodywork now, probably do the brakes in the fall. Will get some pics posted soon!


Posted By: javelinman74
Date Posted: Aug/06/2012 at 7:44am
One more is that we sold a set off the Gremlin to a guy putting them on a 64 Rambler and he confirmed no issues...
Good Luck!
Richard


-------------
www.a70sthingautomobilia.com
It Used To Be an AMC Thing...
     No One Understands!
1982 Eagle SX/4
Daily Drivers since 1995!


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Aug/07/2012 at 11:28am
The problem with buying the parts piecemeal is that you don't get the caliper adapter that bolts between the spindle and steering knuckle with AMC factory discs.

ALL of the AMC factory disc brakes will fit ALL AMC models back to the 1950 Nash Rambler (and 1952-57 Nash big cars, 55-57 Hudsons). Anything but the 79-83 disc brakes have rather expensive ($100+) rotors. Get a set with good rotors and you'll be fine -- until the rotors wear out and can't be turned any more. Prices aren't going down for hard to find parts! The last 79-83 rotor I bought cost me $55 about 1.5 years ago.

The current Scarebird kit is the easiest and cheapest way to go. Use your existing hubs and have them turned down to save money. The original drums can be remounted on the turned down rotors if you ever want to go back. The $225 kit has hubs that are ready to go. The hubs are turned down AMC rotors (rotors that were worn out).

----------------------------------

Scarebird has made three different kits:
Type 1 (original - 2006-2008?) - flat bracket that bolted between spindle and steering knuckle like the AMC factory discs. Used a Ford Ranger rotor and a Chevy S-10 truck caliper. A seal adapter was included and an early model Mustang seal was used. The problem with this is that AMC used at least two different spindle thicknesses for drum brakes, plus at least one more for disc.

This kit only bolted on with no mods to V-8 drum cars. Six drum spindles had a thinner base for narrower drums and spacers had to be used to center the caliper. Heck, I might have the spindle thicknesses backwards -- V-8 drum may have been thinner... In that case the spindle would have to be machined thinner. If converting anything but the old Bendix four piston discs (which I *think* used V-8 drum spindles) you'd have to test fit and either space or machine the spindles to center the caliper over the rotor. A big PITA for Scarebird as they would need accurate spindle measurements to make the kit work, and you'd need to measure your spindle before ordering for a direct bolt-on, which is what they would prefer.


Type 2 - (2009-2011?) - Bracket was changed to bolt to the FRONT of the spindle, not behind it. This required a welded bracket, but one kit would fit all. These used a Ranger rotor/Mustang seal/adapter as above, but substituted a Chevy Celebrity caliper for the S-10 caliper so that the caliper would easily center over the rotor.

The problem with this type is that the welds can break. It's rather rare, but some have. I haven't seen an actual AMC bracket break, but Scarebird makes this type for some other cars (Fords being one of them) and I HAVE seen photos on the web of one of them with a broken weld. It was on a big car, a mid 60s Galaxie. The heavier the car (and the harder it's driven) the more strain on a welded bracket.


Type 3 (current) -- Now Scarebird uses a flat bracket that mounts to the front of the spindle -- no welds to break! A 91-97 Toyota Previa van front rotor is used. It's a hat type rotor that slips over the wheel studs like a rear brake drum. The drum is removed from the original AMC hub and the outer diameter of the hub turned down slightly so the Previa rotor will slide over it. Chevy Celebrity calipers are still used. No seal adapters needed, use AMC seal and bearings. Or get teh kit with hubs, or have a set of worn out AMC rotors turned down yourself.

There is some concern over the Previa rotor being discontinued at some point, but they should be available for the next 10-15 years. Can't say that about even the 79-83 AMC rotors! Plus the Previa rotors are like $20 each -- buy some extras and store them if you're that concerned.

----------------------

When talking about the Scarebird setup you might want to ask about how the bracket is made and where it bolts up to get an idea of which one is being used. I used type numbers, but that is not an official Scarebird designation. Any of the three will work well on any AMC, but may require a little grinding (type 2 does, not sure about others) to fit lower trunnion models and may require some spacing or spindle machining (type 1) to fit. It's all very minor modifications, but if you're expecting a direct bolt-on with no mods the latest should fit the bill -- but even it might need some minor clearance grinding for lower trunnion cars.

I don't work for or sell Scarebird parts. I have been a fan and promoter of this conversion ever since it came out though. IMHO it's the best and cheapest way to get disc brakes on your front drum car, and is even a good substitute for factory discs with expensive rotors. To replace those you may need to turn the original rotor bracket around for clearance and leave it in place, or use spacers in place of the bracket, but the current Scarebird kit WILL work.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Aug/07/2012 at 4:15pm
Thak you for that post Frank at times reading about the kit I thought I was going crazy - I know some say I am there already Confused - because some of it did not make sense.
Dave ----


-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: weramble
Date Posted: Aug/07/2012 at 7:18pm
The Scarebird version #3 mentioned above actually uses 1985-90 Cadillac Fleetwood calipers and pads now. Check out AMC Scarebird on E-bay. It always makes me laugh with everybody concerned about how long these parts will last. If you are like me, and only drive the car 3 or 4,000 miles a year, buy an extra set of rotors and a few sets of pads and store them when you have an extra few bucks laying around. They will last longer than me or my car is alive.


Posted By: CodyClassic550
Date Posted: Aug/14/2012 at 8:29am
Can this be used on a 66 classic wagon?


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Aug/14/2012 at 10:12am
The current Scarebird kit can easily be fitted to ANY 1952-83 AMC. On the 66 Classic it should be a bolt-on requiring no modifications. On some a little grinding or spacing may be required, but it bolts on with no mods to all 64+ cars (and the 63 Classic/Ambo). No one has reported any trouble with the latest iteration at all. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: WARBED
Date Posted: Mar/18/2013 at 6:29pm
I know this is late but I got to put my 2 cents in.  If you have a disc brake set up from a 71 and newer AMC and the rotor is shot, Then get a 25.00 dollar rotor Oreileys part number 780444RGS it's for a Grand Cherokee but it works and the offset, thickness and lug pattern is the same.  I machined the rotor off the hub so the rotor wound just slip on. I did this with my 72 Matador and my 59 Rambler American Wagon 2dr of coarse the brakes came of a 73 AMX,  These are 11 inch rotors by the way.  If anyone wants there original hub rotor assemblies machined to fit these rotors I can do for 20.00 a rotor + shipping.


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59 American 2dr S/W. 70 390 AMX. 70 232 javelin. Kelvinator fridge ice cold beer storage.


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Mar/18/2013 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by weramble weramble wrote:

The Scarebird version #3 mentioned above actually uses 1985-90 Cadillac Fleetwood calipers and pads now. Check out AMC Scarebird on E-bay. It always makes me laugh with everybody concerned about how long these parts will last. If you are like me, and only drive the car 3 or 4,000 miles a year, buy an extra set of rotors and a few sets of pads and store them when you have an extra few bucks laying around. They will last longer than me or my car is alive.


There is a point to be made here if some one is interested.
Most AMC cars now are pretty much collector cars and rarely driven.  These kits that are becoming available are pretty good ones.  Like all kits, some are better than others and frankly I am not sure it makes much difference.
I worked on a 69 Mustang last week end, with a kit conversion from drum to disc using GM calipers and flat plate adapter with  Ford Truck rotors.  It looked to be o.k., it had a problem though and I am not sure how critical it was. But then again I just got my Hornet disc brakes working this afternoon. They had a problem too. The point really is how much are they going to be driven.  Some where around 1985 or so I had to deal with my 1970 Javelin and there infamous 4 piston disc brakes.  I spent a ton on money getting stainless steel sleeved calipers for it.  And two sets of pucks.  I haven't used any of them yet. I built my Spirit in 1999 as a driver, but I have only put 40,000 miles on it.  I put 200,000 on a Mitsubishi and another 130,000 on a Chrysler T&C since then.
These brake kits are priced fairly.  Buy them, use them and be glad they exist.



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70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: WARBED
Date Posted: Mar/18/2013 at 7:55pm
Glad that there is someone making kits for anything to do with AMC's.  Mine is just a cheap fix for those that all ready have rotors but are damaged and want to keep it mostly AMC and it's a simple fix. The last time I priced a rotor for a 72 Matador was 150.00 bucks but was not even available, and if they did they wanted your old core or pay another 20.00 bucks. My way all you need is a common Jeep rotor. If you have drums and want to go disc then go aftermarket, there isn't a lot of choice.  By the way anyone have a pair of spindles for a 70 and newer AMC. I need a pair thanks for any help.

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59 American 2dr S/W. 70 390 AMX. 70 232 javelin. Kelvinator fridge ice cold beer storage.


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Mar/18/2013 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by WARBED WARBED wrote:

Glad that there is someone making kits for anything to do with AMC's.  Mine is just a cheap fix for those that all ready have rotors but are damaged and want to keep it mostly AMC and it's a simple fix. The last time I priced a rotor for a 72 Matador was 150.00 bucks but was not even available, and if they did they wanted your old core or pay another 20.00 bucks. My way all you need is a common Jeep rotor. If you have drums and want to go disc then go aftermarket, there isn't a lot of choice.  By the way anyone have a pair of spindles for a 70 and newer AMC. I need a pair thanks for any help.

I have a feeling that the people making kits, and they are out there have no idea that if they can come up with a bolt on disc brake kit that fits anything AMC, it fits ALL!
I think I have spindles, I will go look. If I do it is because they are disc brake spindles.  At least I think so.

Sorry, If I have 2 around some where I can no longer find them. I have scrounged up a lot of 70+ front suspension parts over the years to rebuild things with and I would have saved the brakes if I had a reason to. Of course you need disc brake spindles to run AMC disc brakes with and if I had any spindles at all it would be because I removed drums and the spindle. And I don't even have but one set of brake parts. And they are stashed for future reference, no spindles but lots of upper and lower control arms.


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70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Mar/19/2013 at 6:56am
IIRC there are 3 different spindles on our cars. IIRC 2 have a different bearing size and the other has a different pad thickness where is bolts to the knuckle.
Because of this it is hard to make any "bolt on kit" work for us.
This was found when a member was working with Wilwood for thier kit and from what I hear they still have issues with the kit.
Yes we are lucky anyone is even looking to throw us a bone let alone give it to us.
Dave ----


-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Mar/19/2013 at 7:41am
Originally posted by FuzzFace2 FuzzFace2 wrote:

IIRC there are 3 different spindles on our cars. IIRC 2 have a different bearing size and the other has a different pad thickness where is bolts to the knuckle.
Because of this it is hard to make any "bolt on kit" work for us.
This was found when a member was working with Wilwood for thier kit and from what I hear they still have issues with the kit.
Yes we are lucky anyone is even looking to throw us a bone let alone give it to us.
Dave ----


The rule of thumb over the years simply has been if you are junkyard sourcing a later model AMC disc brake set of parts from a 2 wheel drive car,  you take everything from the steering knuckle out and that includes the spindle.
You take the Spindle because of exactly what you are saying, a difference in Spindle between the drum and any Disc Brake package.
Once all of those parts are in your possession they will BOLT on to any AMC Steering Knuckle giving what ever that car is, upgraded disc brakes.
While different disc brakes were used on a variety of AMC cars depending on the year and in later years whether it was a 4 cylinder or not and naturally Eagle brakes would not work as the 4wheel or Allwheel drive package would not fit on a 2 wheel drive car.
After market spindles are certainly state of the Art at the present time.  If a manufacturer of disc brake kits wants to be all inclusive on their kit application, it will require them to include a spindle. As most kits also include a rotor and hub with bearing, the addition of a spindle to the package will;
1. Make it universal to ALL AMC products thus broadening the target market
2. And still make it affordable.
This would leave only a set of instructions that applies if there is an interference with a trunnion equipped car.  This is now handled by taking the drivers side caliper if mounted in the rear and moving it to the passenger side and mounting it in the front.
This rotation keeps the bleeder in the top position required for proper bleeding and resolves the interference problem that occurs depending on the AMC car used as a source for the Disc Brakes.
And if I had known all of this stuff 30 years ago in detail I would not have spent a ton of money on those archaic 4 piston caliper disc brakes on my Javelin that were not only next to impossible to find parts for or get apart and reqired shimming to get them in proper alignment and no one had the bloody shims. I would have upgraded them to later model brakes then.
To be fair, they are still working now, but the aggravation I went through at the time left an open wound I think.
An aftermarket kit with today's machining capability is certainly feasible.
The Mustang unit I was trying to solve a problem on was not a rocket science design.


-------------
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: WARBED
Date Posted: Mar/19/2013 at 7:25pm
Sorry for this I'm looking for steering knuckles for 70 up AMC. spindles/axles I have. I've been working for Ford to long and they don't separate like AMC so call them spindles, front axles or steering knuckles and its all  the same.  Might have a line on a set someone is looking. Thanks for any help.


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59 American 2dr S/W. 70 390 AMX. 70 232 javelin. Kelvinator fridge ice cold beer storage.


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Mar/20/2013 at 12:31am
Originally posted by WARBED WARBED wrote:

Sorry for this I'm looking for steering knuckles for 70 up AMC. spindles/axles I have. I've been working for Ford to long and they don't separate like AMC so call them spindles, front axles or steering knuckles and its all  the same.  Might have a line on a set someone is looking. Thanks for any help.

I do not have the spindles, which do unbolt and are separate from steering knuckles.  Well at least if I do have them I have not found them.  However steering knuckles I have, how many do you want?


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70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/05/2014 at 4:58pm
OK I know this a little out there however so am I.
I have a 1961 Willys Jeep FJ3A and there seem to be almost NO parts available and that caught me off guard. Since I am missing a front wheel hub and backer plate I am thinking about doing a disc conversion. In all of my searching it looks like the Scarebird is the closest fit. Does anyone know the Plate mounting dimensions side to side and top to bottom for early AMC?? I am waiting on Scarebird, seems they are very busy.
I do not want a piece of yard art, it will be a very long struggle but we plan to drive this guy. Right now it is a tripod.

Any and all help is appreciated.


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Dec/06/2014 at 11:51pm
this advice runs counter to current thinking, but if your car is light, drum brakes are fine -- if you oversize them. for Americans, 9x2.5 drums from late 70's/80's cars are fine, bolt on, and are dirt cheap. 9x2.5 drums are still commonly available.

the scarebird kits are great though. they're a great choice. i concur on the longevity "issue" -- seriously, and also, 30 yr old GM or Toyota parts will be a heck of a lot easier to find that AMC WHO MAKES THAT DODGE? parts.

factoid for you: there were more Ford Model T's made than all AMCs in its' 30 year existence! there's more parts available for a ONE HUNDRED YEAR OLD CAR than our Ramblers. start packratting, or adapting :-)

i drilled and ventilated 9.x25 drums and did some seriously hard driving on them and they performed as ghood as or better than the scarebird setup, on my '63 American. lighter too. my perversion is not for everyone i admit, ymmv, etc.



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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/07/2014 at 12:06pm
My original thought was leave it all original but due to not having the parts I am up the creek. I still would like the mounting plate hole measurements if anyone has them. I am missing the backer plate and front wheel hub, so I am at the hole in the road.
Thank You


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/07/2014 at 8:00pm
Does the spindle mount have four bolts? I'm thinking they might have the same pattern as AMC spindles. If so, you might be in luck. I don't have one handy to measure, but the pattern is the same from at least 1952 through 83 (last 2WD AMC car).


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: WARBED
Date Posted: Dec/07/2014 at 9:34pm
Bolt holes are 0.44 of an inch or 7/16 in size. measurements are from center to center. top holes are 2.450 and side or verticals are 2.559.  If your holes don't line up let me know the dimensions and I could make you an adapter plate. I'm not familiar with your style of vehicle. does it use a solid front axle like the Jeeps CJ's or independent like the cars? Hope this info helps

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59 American 2dr S/W. 70 390 AMX. 70 232 javelin. Kelvinator fridge ice cold beer storage.


Posted By: WARBED
Date Posted: Dec/07/2014 at 9:51pm

Oh I do have the entire disc brake set up off of a 72 Matador. axles, spindles, steering arms. discs, backing plated. rotors, calipers. calipers would need to be rebuilt. Also on Amc's the  hub and rotor are a one piece set up. I do machine old worn rotors off the hub so a Cherokee rotor can be bolted onto the AMC hub 20.00 bucks compaired 100.00 + dollars if they can be found is better on the wallet.



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59 American 2dr S/W. 70 390 AMX. 70 232 javelin. Kelvinator fridge ice cold beer storage.


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/08/2014 at 12:36pm
I have the "I-Beam type straight axle (it is not really straight, dips down in the center, under the engine)but the spindle is attached via King pins. This is a 2 wheel drive

The following is for a DJ but is the same as FJ http://www.jeepsurreygala.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/55-dj-fr-axle-1024x735.jpg

Thank You


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/08/2014 at 1:49pm
Could you send picture of the backing plate and rotor?
And if you are willing to break up the set. send me an email with the how much factor. Or if you know of a set of backing plates I will start there. I can't use the rest of it.


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/08/2014 at 4:13pm
farna
It does have 4 bolts to hold the backer plate to the spindle and I think you are right. if not exact they seem to be close, very close almost scary after all of the "can't find it" part searches
If you know of any backer plates for sale let me know.
Thank You


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Dec/09/2014 at 12:37pm

Ok that front end/axle assy. Is different than the AMC car at the wheel ends.
Your spindle/knuckle is 1 piece and held to the “axle” with the king pins.

The cars spindles & knuckles are 2 piece where the spindles bolt to the knuckles. See the picture of the car spindle with the measurements, that bolts to the knuckle with 4 bolts/nuts that then uses ball joints top/bottom to the A arms.
On the cars they also use the 4 bolts/nuts to hold on the backing plates & steering arms and think the caliper brackets.
What I see you could not bolt on a disc brake kit easily because your spindles do not bolt to the knuckles.

Right now I am thinking of getting you 4 wheels on the ground.
To start what is the size of the brakes on your Jeep?
What is the wheel bolt pattern size on the Jeep? Car is 5x4.5.
Do the car spindle holes measure the same as your backing plate holes?
When you say “hub” do your drums slip over the hub or are the drum/hub 1 piece like the AMC cars?
I don’t know where to start on measuring your spindles & hub/drums to see if you could use AMC car parts and bolt them on to your Jeep for now. Guess you would need to measure the ID of the bearings and the seal area and also measure were the 2 bearing ride inside to outside them get the measurements of the car set up.
My thought is maybe using AMC car drum brake setup if the backing plate will bolt to your spindle/knuckle assy. And if the car drum/hub will fit your spindle.
Dave ----

-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Dec/09/2014 at 12:46pm
Another thought have you looked at the hot rod front ends to see if the king pin/knuckles may work on your beam? Then you could come up with any type of brakes you would want.

I have not looked but you may be able to come up with a “loaded” (beam/spindles/brakes) front axle to fit just don’t know of the drop yours has that I guess is to clear the motor.
Dave ----

-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/09/2014 at 12:51pm
Check with Speedway Motors for new front beam axles if you can't find a hub that fits. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/09/2014 at 4:17pm
#1 original brake size 9"X2"
#2 5 x 4.5"
#3 The holes (4ea) in my spindle are the attaching point for the drum backer plate
#4 drums slip over the hub
#5 bearings needed for FJ3A
Cone          Cup          Bore (ID)     OD          Width
#09067            09195            0.7500            1.9380             0.7100
#15123             15245             1.2500            2.4409             0.7150

1961 AMC front Wheel Bearings                                                                              cone ID                  cup OD      Width     
Set 2          .750"               1.781"     .610"      (LM11949 and LM11910)
Set 6          1.250"                  2.3280     .625"      (LM67048 and LM67010)
My spindle is 4.5" from backing plate mount to tip with apx .5" seal area

What I see is the AMC bearing is not as wide .6xx verses .7xx. The OD is important only to the hub I use.
If I could get the disc mounting bracket I would go from that point.
I have e-mailed Scarebird and it sounds as if they may can come up with something but are very busy so I was doing some research myself. I think it will work. I do not know the correct seal YET, but...
I would like to find someone with a bracket if only a loaner to test fit



Posted By: mramc
Date Posted: Dec/09/2014 at 4:20pm
Ok, You really want the Willys  Overland Kaiser Jeep specialists for this . Here are two of the prime big vendors. There is a fair bit of interest in restoring many of the older jeeps.  LRDaum

http://www.kaiserwillys.com/?gclid=CNmSiID-ucICFYxDMgodP0AAMA

http://www.willysoverland.com/



-------------
LRDaum


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/09/2014 at 4:26pm
farna
Even if I find a hub I still need drums all around. I think I can find shoes and have purchased wheel cylinders along with some hardware. I fell that when I need parts later and I will if I update now then parts should be there. Disc seems to be the way to go, just gotta get past a few bumps in the road. It looks really close to me


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/09/2014 at 4:39pm
LRDaum
I have a 1947 Willys station wagon and a 1962 Willys Pickup Truck and have never ever had trouble finding parts. This little FJ3A was/is not in high demand nor were a whole lot of them made. Willys Jeep had another company make them, Fleet Products in Kent, Ohio
I have contacted your guys and get a big ole "Huh, you have a what? nope can't help you" They cater mostly to the 4 wheel drive folks and that's OK just not much help for me.
Y'all just keep your eyes open for a set of Disc brake mounting brackets. I think it will work.
Thanks for trying.


Posted By: Jimster70
Date Posted: Dec/09/2014 at 6:11pm
I used the later concord type and they stop my rambler very well!!!!!!!!1


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/11/2014 at 3:40pm
If anyone has a Disc brake mounting plate and could copy/trace onto a piece of cardboard or thin plywood, I could at least see if I am going in the right direction.
Thank You to everyone that has contributed.


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/13/2014 at 3:13pm
I guess everyone is out shopping.
I have ordered some stuff from the local parts house and they were nice enough to let me bring my axle there and test fit. I will post if I make any progress. I know this ain't a Rambler but the parts may fit.
Thank You All again


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Dec/14/2014 at 8:26am
Good to hear you have a GOOD local parts house that will work with you as they are getting hard to find now days.

Yes keep us posted as I would like to hear & see, need pictures, how your project comes together.
Dave ----

-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/14/2014 at 12:58pm
The guy there is a lot younger than my project (but then so are a lot of folks) and is kinda eager to help.
I am looking at first a rotor for a 1986-1992 Cherokee, second and third AMC . I think the second or third will be the one. It all depends on the Height (or back to front)
I will post the results be they good or bad. I am still looking for a pattern for the bracket, I guess it will come down to me creating one to match my results.


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Dec/15/2014 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by wmildman wmildman wrote:

farna
Even if I find a hub I still need drums all around.


rockauto.com. Raybestos 2512R's are $23 each right now. sign up for sale notices, they often dump non-moving stock (which i take as a hint...). 2512's are 9 x 2.5" drums. middling Hornets, Concords and Gremlins are good donors for backing plates etc. Nobody wants drums, everyone's going for discs, so drum setups are cheap.

for cars that came with 9 x 2 drums up front, the 2.5s are a decent upgrade. i heavily modified a set and they are as good as a Scarebird setup in all around driving, even not bad in rain. plus they're lighter than disc setups by a few pounds.

lighter pedal too.

some 2512's on Amazon for $34.

here's a table containing AMC brake data: worldpowersystems.com/AMC/Brakes/GBUB.html" rel="nofollow - worldpowersystems.com/AMC/Brakes/GBUB.html

here's my hot-rodded drum brakes: http://worldpowersystems.com/AMC/1963-Rambler-American/Drums/index.html" rel="nofollow - http://worldpowersystems.com/AMC/1963-Rambler-American/Drums/index.html and here's a better pic than the 2007 pics of the drilled drum: http://sensitiveresearch.com/1961-Rambler-Roadster/images/susp3.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://sensitiveresearch.com/1961-Rambler-Roadster/images/susp3.jpg and http://sensitiveresearch.com/1961-Rambler-Roadster/images/drum1.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://sensitiveresearch.com/1961-Rambler-Roadster/images/drum1.jpg





-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/21/2014 at 1:54pm
Well I have the rotor, bearings and wheel seal. It sits on there quite nicely. The next step is to junk yarding to find dust shields and brackets. I have faith. The only issue may be the wheels. I may have to go aftermarket. One thing at a time!!
When I am done if anyone wants it I will give a parts list. This is not a popular vehicle, soooooo.
Thanks for all of the input.


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Dec/21/2014 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by wmildman wmildman wrote:

This is not a popular vehicle, soooooo.


that just makes it MORE INTERESTING! Seriously.


-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/22/2014 at 7:22am
I for one will be interested to know what parts mix you ended up with. I'm sure other postal Jeep guys will too (I don't have one...). 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/24/2014 at 1:16am
I will keep up with everything used and post it here just in case someone can take advantage of my digging.
The Christmas holiday has slowed me some so just hang in. I may even get some pictures as well. (After all the axle is laying across 2 saw horses (easier to work on and look at)


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/28/2014 at 11:57am
The Cherokee rotor does not seem to fit as needed.
Back to the drawing board. I still think the AMC mid 70s is the ticket. does anyone have the caliper mounting brackets from Ambassador 74, Gremlin 75-76, Hornet 75-76, Matador 74-78, Pacer 75-76 or the later AMX 78, Concord 78, Gremlin 77-78, Hornet 77, Pacer 77-78. These all look like they would mount to my spindle.
Anyone with these parts please let me know


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/28/2014 at 8:06pm
The spindle (and therefore caliper mount) bolt pattern is the same on ALL AMC cars from at least 52 through 83. So if the 74-78 brakes work so will any disk brakes ever used by AMC. Best to get the 79-83 Concord/Spirit/Pacer brakes. The rotors on all earlier ones are different and much more expensive -- $100+ for new ones. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/29/2014 at 11:27am
This is just what I have found the 77-78 bearings/spindle diameters
inner ID 1.3775", outer ID 0.8656", which does NOT match mine but the mid 70s is
inner ID 1.24999", outer 0.74999" none of the outer ODs match my stuff but the only thing I have to look at is the spindle so that is what I am trying to match. The Cherokee was good almost, the hub area was not deep/long enough, so I had a bit of looseness due to everything not seating.
Did all of AMC spindles bolt on?? My little FJ3A spindle is part of the knuckle but has the same mounting measurements.


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/29/2014 at 12:47pm
Farna,
I just spent some time re-reading your 2.5" drum conversion and if I had a hub (only have one) I would seriously consider that path. I cannot find parts for FJ3A and this is why I am looking at other vehicles. Are parts available?   


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/29/2014 at 6:08pm
AMC only used two bearing sets. Drum and most disc brakes used the smaller set. 75-78 disc brakes used the larger bearing set. 75-78 Matador used a thicker rotor and 3.1" piston calipers, as did all 75-76 models. 77-78 small cars (Hornet/Concord/Gremlin/Spirit/Pacer) used a thinner rotor and the later style 2.6" piston caliper, but still used the large bearings. 79+ used small bearings and 2.6" calipers.

I understand what you're trying to do. As long as the inner diameters match the bearings will fit your spindle, provided the spindle isn't much longer or shorter than the AMC spindle.

Have you had any luck on the postal Jeep forums? I see part of your problem -- you have the older model. Most of the postal Jeep forums and parts places are for the later model DJ5. Your FJ3A van should have the same equipment as the DJ3A. It may also have the same front end as the Willys Pick-up and Station Wagon though. Same era. Worth asking older Jeep experts about that... or seeing if you can find a parts book or illustration...


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/29/2014 at 7:00pm
Most of the postal Jeep guys have the newer stuff DJ5 and even a DJ3 would be a 4 lug hub not 5. I have a front and rear set up for a wagon but that is not close.
I need the smaller(?) bearings .75" outer ID and 1.25" inner ID   My spindle from face to end is 4" and the pictures I have found the taper looks the same. The Cherokee hub was just a little short.
If I could find a Rambler hub I would try that because I believe them to be the same dimensions. Do you have or know of one? I'm not asking for free a reasonable price for an experiment is fair. If just to borrow and send back to answer that question.
Thank You
Wayne


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/29/2014 at 7:16pm
After re-reading your drum post if I had a correct hub I would probably go that route.
That was good info and my original plan was stay stock


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Dec/30/2014 at 5:01pm
Sorry tomj I was tired and confused.
Thanks for the information


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Jan/02/2015 at 3:57pm
Does anyone know the spindle length for a 1980 Pacer?


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/02/2015 at 4:27pm
Same as every other AMC spindle. That would be 5" from the FRONT of the mounting base to the end of the spindle. The base is 1/2" thick on drum brake cars, 7/8" thick on disc brake cars. The disc brake spindle is slightly shorter from the front of the mounting base by 3/8" (5-7/8" overall vs. 5-1/2" overall). I suspect you need the distance between the bearings though. I just went out and measured one. From the BACK of the rear bearing to the BACK of the front bearing is 2-1/2". Distance between bearings depends on the thickness of the rear bearing. AMC used an A2 and A6 bearing (or SET2 and SET6 -- inner is 6 and the larger, outer is 2).  A6 bore diameter is 1-1/4", width is 5/8". A2 bore diameter is 3/4", width is 5/8" (the specs from National Bearings are 0.625" and 0.610" on width, so the A2 is just under 5/8"). 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Jan/02/2015 at 4:50pm
Thank You
My FJ3A spindle is 4.5".
I tried a Cherokee hub/rotor and the only thing it was too short with a height of 3.99" I guess that is total front of hub to back of rotor, so now I have ordered one for a 1980 Pacer that is 4.76" and have asked but will not know until it gets here about the other dimensions. It uses the right bearings. I remember a time when the folks at the local parts store could/would look up and tell you everything about a given part but Hello walmart, that just doesn't happen now.
I know this has been happening for a while, back in the 80s my wife used to love to go buy parts for my 1978 Ford F-150 I had changed a few things. They always asked engine size and when told 429cu in they thought she was wrong so she proudly raised the hood and watched their chin fall.
This project will happen and I really do appreciate the help from everyone on the AMC Forum.
I know this is not AMC but everyone likes old vehicles and is trying to help. When finished I would be honored to post pictures of this little guy on here.
Thank You again


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/02/2015 at 5:25pm
The 80 Pacer has the standard disc brake spindle for AMC, so if it works any 79-83 AMC car spindle will work (78 was last year of the big cars which used the bigger bearing spindle). Same with brakes -- 79-83. That should help! 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Jan/09/2015 at 5:27pm
OK I got the Pacer rotor and the rotor hits the knuckle well before the bearings seat. So that didn't work, Darn-it. If the "Hub part had not been recessed so much I believe it would have worked
Did AMC come either hub/drum or later hub/rotor? Are there any hub only and then I will find a rotor to fit over it,,,,,, maybe If so do you know of at least one for sale for now. If it works then I would need a second one later.
Thanks for all of the help


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/10/2015 at 6:27am
Get a drum brake and remove the drum. Drive the studs out then the hub will come off the drum. It's not necessarily easy to get the drum off, but the hub will drive out with a block of wood and BFH or a press. The drum won't be useable after as it generally warps the center badly when pressed off. Then you can try a 4x4 rotor.  You might try a rear drive XJ Cherokee hub. Not positive it's the same as AMC car, but should be. AMC didn't reinvent the wheel if they didn't have too.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Jan/10/2015 at 11:46am
"AMC didn't reinvent the wheel if they didn't have too"
This seems to be true of Willys in a lot of areas. I was not surprised to see they are very close to fit and design 


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Jan/17/2015 at 5:32pm
Well here we are. I received a set of hubs from BamaRogue, they were from his 66 and THEY FIT!!! I just cleaned them for race replacement Monday. I also ordered the brackets from Scarebird. They talk about a little machine work on the hubs but I will wait and see just how much. Worse case is buy his hubs. I decided to go ahead and convert now because I have no drums.
Progress is being made, even small amounts add up.

Thanks to everyone that helped


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Jan/25/2015 at 2:08pm
Thanks to 'BamaRogue' for the hubs.
The Brakes, they are coming together.
I collected all of the parts Scarebird suggested to use their brackets and had to have the hubs turned down slightly to fit inside of the Toyota rotor. I had to grind a little off of my spindle mounting plate for clearance but other than that it is all fitting together. I removed the lug bolts in the old hubs and replaced them with slightly longer ones. When I get the new bolts and put it together I will post pictures. So now my FJ3A will not become yard art, but it will take a while to finish.
None of the "adjustments" were major, a little here and a little there. When you are putting an after market bracket, Toyota rotors and Celebrity calipers on a Willys Jeep FJ3A, well,,,,,,,,,,

Thanks to everyone on the AMCForum for the help


Posted By: maximus7001
Date Posted: Jan/30/2015 at 5:08am
I have the newest type 3 scarebird brackets and have collected all the parts to put it together. This is going on a 68 Javelin 290.

2 things to point out:

1. No splash shield. This seems to be overlooked by everyone.

2. If you live in Canada good luck on the machining costs on the hubs.

-------------
1968 Javelin SST

1997 GMC Safari AWD

2001 Daewoo Nubira SX (Winnipeg only model)

1997 Honda Accord EX (Canadian Model)

Winnipeg, home of the Jets.


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Jan/30/2015 at 7:15am
Parts for these cars are not going to last for ever and are dissappearing now. I realize that aftermarket conversion kits are here and probably should be glad for them.
However I have worked on Frankenbrake conversions for people who have had problems with them, and some of them hae weird problems and chasing down what fits well after the fact is a night mare unless there is a well kept paper trail as to what they consist of. And that for some reason is rarely done by the owner.
So for my money alone, I will stay with the fact that late model Concord and
Spirit parts are bolt on's when you can find them and while repair parts are not cheap, neither are repair parts when needed for the alternative solutions nor frankly is much of anything any more.
And when I can't get anything to repair them with? I'll deal with that when it happens.

-------------
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Jan/30/2015 at 11:24am
I looked at using a complete system from a donor AMC due to not finding any parts for my 61 Jeep FJ3A Fleetvan. However when I found the AMC hub would fit then I went with the after market. I already have a parts list started to be able to maintain this little guy. As was stated Things do wear out.
Going from a bare axle to one that is almost ready to slide under and get bolted on I am tickled.
I may still need another hub, not sure yet. Anyone with an extra let me know. Everything looks as if it were made just for my FJ3A


Posted By: Wrambler
Date Posted: Jan/30/2015 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by wmildman wmildman wrote:

I looked at using a complete system from a donor AMC due to not finding any parts for my 61 Jeep FJ3A Fleetvan. However when I found the AMC hub would fit then I went with the after market. I already have a parts list started to be able to maintain this little guy. As was stated Things do wear out.
Going from a bare axle to one that is almost ready to slide under and get bolted on I am tickled.
I may still need another hub, not sure yet. Anyone with an extra let me know. Everything looks as if it were made just for my FJ3A


You're going to need to tell people exactly which hub you want. They vary some in size over the years and you want them to match. Buying a pair would allow you to keep a spare, so you may wish to consider doing that.

You can circumvent the scarebird kits if you wish to do the leg work. People have done so using drum hubs and free float rotors from various vehicles. Up to 13" late model Mustang brakes have been used.

It is always a good idea to make up a complete list of what is on your car and keep it up to date. One in the car and several backups. 


-------------
Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler
4.0L, 5 speed
2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
2019 Chrysler 300


Posted By: wmildman
Date Posted: Jan/30/2015 at 1:01pm
You guys just keep educating and helping me and I appreciate it.
The hubs I have came from a 1966 Rogue (Rambler American), it uses the set 2 and set 6 bearings. They had to be turned down a little. I bought the Scarebird bracket and the parts recommended. Everything fit well and looks like a good set up for my little Fleetvan. The 10" Previa rotors are just fine as it had 9" drums and this is not heavy and not a road racer.
Maybe I should get an AMC label for it, just kiddin

-------------
mildman


Posted By: 73 javelin/AMX
Date Posted: Feb/12/2016 at 5:23pm
Are disc brake spindles the same as drum brake spindles on the front of a 1973 javelin / also are they interchangeable from lt to rt sd???  Thank you!


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Feb/12/2016 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by 73 javelin/AMX 73 javelin/AMX wrote:



Are disc brake spindles the same as drum brake spindles on the front of a 1973 javelin / also are they interchangeable from lt to rt sd???  Thank you!


To the best of my knowledge, drum spindles and disc spindles are not the same on any given car.

The rule of thumb applied to updating an AMC car to a disc brake configuration was to obtain everything from the steering knuckle out when obtaining parts from a Donor Car.
This of course applied to obtaining parts from a donor AMC car. If tis was not followed and the parts did not fit you ended up trying to chase parts down because apparently between certain years there was in deed parts that were different. Something avoided if you just got all that was on the Donor from the steering knuckle out.
I was to be honest not aware of that because I never ran across it as a problem.
I have seen responses to the question of what those changes were but I have not kept that information for my purposes. I guess I should as it may come in handy.
I am still using the OEM Bendix (I think) 4 piston brakes on my 1970 Javelin as they work and I have two sets of pads for them and I understand that MOPAR used them also thus giving a second source for parts.

-------------
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: WARBED
Date Posted: Feb/13/2016 at 9:41am
There is something about tall and short spindles. Tall being used on disc brakes and short drum. From what I read it's actually is a depth difference. Of all the brake conversions that I have done over the years I have never ran into a concern putting disc on a drum spindle. If you do need spindles I have some from a 72 AMX

-------------
59 American 2dr S/W. 70 390 AMX. 70 232 javelin. Kelvinator fridge ice cold beer storage.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Feb/14/2016 at 3:59pm
1. Yes, you an change the spindles from left to right -- both sides are the same.

2. There are two different spindles as far as bearing size. 75-78 cars use a big bearing spindle, all others use the same size slightly smaller bearings.

3. Amongst all but the 75-78 spindles there are 3-4 different height spindles. The distance between bearings is the same, so hubs/rotors interchange but may not clear the steering knuckle (the upright piece between the ball joints or trunnions that the spindle bolts to). The thickness of the base that has the four holes in it to bolt to the steering knuckle differs depending on the width of the brake drum or offset required for the disc brakes. Wider brakes need more clearance, and usually have a thicker base spindle. Disc brakes generally need more offset for the calipers to fit between the rotor and steering knuckle, so they typically have thicker bases, but the thickness of the caliper adapter helps.

4. If you get calipers and brackets, or get some aftermarket brakets from Willwood, Aerospace, or Scarwebird, you can use your existing spindles (unless they are 75-78 big bearing). You will have to test fit and see if the spindle needs to be moved in or out.  To move in machine down base -- but have a machine shop do it, don't try to grind down yourself -- must be perfectly flat! To move out use grade 8 washers as spacers -- grade 8 are hardened and won't deform under pressure and are of uniform thickness. If you need to move them out a lot you can use a 1/2" grade 8 nut as a spacer, which is about 3/8" thick. I used nuts and a couple washers to space mine spindles out for wheel clearance so I could run some deep offset wheels. Did it back in 2003, no issues. I talked to an engineer before I made the change. He said that the round mating surfaces around the bolt holes were just being extended by the nut/washers spacing. As long as the bolt stayed tight all the spacers were doing was extending that surface, and I would have to extend well more than an inch (maybe two or more) before being concerned about the sheer strength of the 3/8" bolts that hold the spindle on.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Feb/15/2016 at 12:12am
If the sole purpose of moving the Spindle out away from the steering knuckle is to keep the wheel of choice from interfering with the spring than that too can be done by using wheel spacers or adapters. Adapters can be obtained in multiple sizes, the smallest or thinnest being 1/2 inch. Spacers which fit between the wheel and it's mounting surface come in multiple thin sizes but the largest recommended for use is 1/4 of an inch. Wheel adapters, mount where the wheel did and the wheel then mounts to the adapter. They can be 5 x 4.5, the standard AMC/Ford/MOPAR bolt pattern of can be used to mount wheels from almost any car of choice on your AMC product.
The 5x4.5 bolt pattern dates from well before the period of the AMX to the present. I am using them to mount 2006 Ford Mustang Wheels on my Hornet and T&C or Carvan wheels on my roller so it can be moved around.

-------------
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: 73 javelin/AMX
Date Posted: Feb/15/2016 at 6:50pm
Are both side knuckles the same on disc brakes as drum brakes and are they switcheable from side to side in frt suspension??



Posted By: Slate
Date Posted: Feb/15/2016 at 10:43pm
Read the previous posts, they answer your question.

Steve


Posted By: WARBED
Date Posted: Feb/16/2016 at 12:45am
I do know that I have done a few Javelins and my 72 Matador to disc brakes and I never had to change out the Spindle/Knuckle or the Axles and yep the Spindle/Knuckle assy can be switched side to side. Everything can be switched side to side weather you want the caliper in front or behind the axle center line. Most of the conversions that I have done I used the disc set up's off the 71 thru 76 or so  AMC's. My Rambler American got the set up off the 80 Concord/Spirit but I'm using the Spindles/Knuckles off the Early Matadors which are the same as the Javelins, and steering arms off a Pacer.  Basically you can make anything work just be safe.   And nothing against spacers but try to stay away from them if at all possible. The more off set from the center of the ball joint the harder the vehicle is to control. Case in point Ford F250. Can't turn the steering wheel when brakes are hard pressed. 

-------------
59 American 2dr S/W. 70 390 AMX. 70 232 javelin. Kelvinator fridge ice cold beer storage.


Posted By: WARBED
Date Posted: Feb/16/2016 at 12:49am
Check the part number on your Spindle/Knuckle assy just curious and I'll check mine out tomorrow I have a few sets laying around all off of disc brake set ups.

-------------
59 American 2dr S/W. 70 390 AMX. 70 232 javelin. Kelvinator fridge ice cold beer storage.


Posted By: nickleone
Date Posted: Feb/16/2016 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by maximus7001 maximus7001 wrote:

I have the newest type 3 scarebird brackets and have collected all the parts to put it together. This is going on a 68 Javelin 290.

2 things to point out:

1. No splash shield. This seems to be overlooked by everyone.

2. If you live in Canada good luck on the machining costs on the hubs.


I am in the US. I took the hubs and new rotors to the local NAPA store and he put them on the brake lathe and cut them down to fit. $20 well spent.

nick

-------------
nick
401 71 Gremlin pro rally car sold
390 V8 SX/4 pro rally car sold
1962 Classic SW T5 4 wheel disc brakes


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Feb/16/2016 at 6:51pm
Any place that turns brake drums or rotors should be able to turn that hub down on the brake lathe, and usually charge whatever they charge to turn a rotor or drum. Machine shops will be a lot more. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: WARBED
Date Posted: Feb/17/2016 at 12:30am
Turned my old AMC rotors off, machined the left over hub to accept the Rotor off a Cherokee, Cant tell it's a two piece and it centers just like the original. Did have to mill the face off the hub about the same thickness as the rotor. now new  Rotor less then 30 bucks. Yea having a lathe helps. Oh my Rambler now has brakes so I can stop before hitting things in my shop.

-------------
59 American 2dr S/W. 70 390 AMX. 70 232 javelin. Kelvinator fridge ice cold beer storage.


Posted By: 64660
Date Posted: Mar/10/2016 at 1:55pm
I thought I would jump on this thread first before I start a new post. I'm going to convert using the scare bird kit, but need to know if the mounting geometry changes from the stock drum to the disc kit. In other words, I am running aftermarket wheels, 18" x 8.0, and have just enough room from the inside of the wheel to the trunnion and the outside of the wheel to the front fender. If the mounting location of the wheel changes, inbound or outbound,I may have a fitment issue with my current wheel and tire.   Scarebird only told me there was no issues with stock wheel size but that is not my issue.


Posted By: uncljohn
Date Posted: Mar/10/2016 at 9:29pm
You are going into new ground with this conversion. Very few people are using aftermarket wheels and few are using a scare bird kit for parts and even fewer are using both things together.
A lot of what is going to affect the use of your 18x8 inch wheels is going to be what car they are actually on.
Also whether the front end has been lowered or not.
I have just finished getting 19 x 10 inch wheels fitted on a Hornet and one of the things I had to do was UN-lower the front of the car.
Of course I am using OEM disc/drum brake configurations. There was a lot of trial and error fitting before I found the right combination of parts and adjustments that would work.
It was also important to use wheel spacers to shim the wheel in and out to get the proper front end geometry on the vehicle. The parts are there to use with use guidelines to stay with in if needed.
Good luck.



-------------
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/11/2016 at 6:29am
I think the current Scarebird AMC conversion bracket mounts ON TOP of the spindle. Assuming it does, it makes no change in geometry. If it mounts BEHIND the spindle it will move the wheels out the thickness of the bracket, which is 1/4". 

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Frank Swygert


Posted By: jav343
Date Posted: Mar/16/2016 at 12:15am
Out of curiosity, would anybody know how much I should ask the machinist to take off the Scarebird hubs to get them to fit? I'm currently doing this brake conversion on my 68 and am at a standstill. I'm needing the machining, too. I have the current kit, bought recently from a fellow member here.
Chris

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2000 Dodge Durango SLT 4.7L, 1997 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L, 1968 AMC Javelin 5.6L 


Posted By: jav343
Date Posted: Mar/21/2016 at 7:41pm
Please disregard my post above; Between the machinist and myself we figured it out. Hubs are now installed and I'm starting rotors, calipers and pads.

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2000 Dodge Durango SLT 4.7L, 1997 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L, 1968 AMC Javelin 5.6L 


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/22/2016 at 5:57am
Well, for others in the future, how much did you end up taking off?


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: jav343
Date Posted: Mar/22/2016 at 11:50am
I left that in his hands, since I'm such a dope on measurements. I described what I had, so  He measured the hub and the portion of the bracket nuts that were obstructing it's installation. The amount removed is very minor. I wish I could be more helpful, next time I go in there I'll see if he could machinist - talk in measurements and relay it back to you guys.


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2000 Dodge Durango SLT 4.7L, 1997 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L, 1968 AMC Javelin 5.6L 


Posted By: nickleone
Date Posted: Mar/22/2016 at 11:55am
When you need the hub turned to fit the rotor/disc bring both to the machine shop. Tell them to make them fit. Simple as that.

Nick

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nick
401 71 Gremlin pro rally car sold
390 V8 SX/4 pro rally car sold
1962 Classic SW T5 4 wheel disc brakes


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/22/2016 at 7:43pm
Honestly, I think you did the right thing and having the measurement is a moot point. Any machinist worth a hoot would measure for himself even if you gave them a measurement, just to double check. 

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Frank Swygert


Posted By: jav343
Date Posted: Mar/22/2016 at 11:10pm
Yeah it worked out nicely; I just finished installing the hubs, rotors, calipers and pads. Next days off I'm going to tackle the brake booster/MC install. The Jav will have power brakes for the first time in her life!

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2000 Dodge Durango SLT 4.7L, 1997 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L, 1968 AMC Javelin 5.6L 


Posted By: Dylan 66 classic
Date Posted: Apr/22/2016 at 9:32am
I am aware scarebird.com sells adapter brackets for my 1966 amc rambler classic, but I'm wondering what other parts I'll need it isn't very clear and I don't want to drop 900$ if there is a cheaper way.


Posted By: nickleone
Date Posted: Apr/22/2016 at 12:32pm
Dylan 66 classic
Go to Scarebirds web page there are instructions and I believe a list of parts.
From my memory :
Previa 5 lug disc rotors
Cavalier? disc brakes and pads
the above from ROCK AUTO
Buy new brake lines locally.
MC from a 1974 Hornet Disc Drum car. Mounting holes might have to be enlarged to fit Rambler.
Take your hubs and Previa rotors to brake shop and have the hubs turned down.
You might need an adjustable proportioning  valve (we did) to adjust rear lockup
Careful purchasing should keep you under $300 USD.

Nick


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nick
401 71 Gremlin pro rally car sold
390 V8 SX/4 pro rally car sold
1962 Classic SW T5 4 wheel disc brakes


Posted By: Dylan 66 classic
Date Posted: Apr/22/2016 at 2:08pm
Do i need a master cylindre and a booster?


Posted By: nickleone
Date Posted: Apr/22/2016 at 3:26pm
My 62 classic sw does not have a booster it stops well.  Only a six cyl car.
I figured a new rebuilt MC was prudent.
Nick


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nick
401 71 Gremlin pro rally car sold
390 V8 SX/4 pro rally car sold
1962 Classic SW T5 4 wheel disc brakes


Posted By: idrambler
Date Posted: Apr/22/2016 at 3:36pm
I have the early Scarebird  disk brake set up on my 69 AMX with out power....works great I did however install a later disk brake MC.....several thousand miles now with no problems.... 

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Jim....AMCRC
Treasure Valley AMC Club, Pres
69 AMX 401/727
74 GremlinX 401/727race only
73 Matador 2dr HT 360/727


Posted By: Dylan 66 classic
Date Posted: Apr/22/2016 at 4:53pm
Did you follow the list of parts from scarebird?


Posted By: idrambler
Date Posted: Apr/22/2016 at 5:20pm
yes the parts list at the time....which has been about a decade ago now.....I used a Disk brake MC from a 74 Hornet...I have more than 10,000 miles on the brake up grade.....



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Jim....AMCRC
Treasure Valley AMC Club, Pres
69 AMX 401/727
74 GremlinX 401/727race only
73 Matador 2dr HT 360/727


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Apr/23/2016 at 8:31am
You can use the drum MC with no issues, just need to remove the residual pressure valve from the front brake outlet of the MC. I've done this several times -- as long as you check your brake fluid level once every year or two you will be fine. The larger reservoir on older MCs is to ensure there is enough fluid to last the life of the pads. Most here check fluid levels occasionally. The larger reservoir was an attempt at idiot proofing...


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: matty 401
Date Posted: Apr/23/2016 at 8:47am
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

You can use the drum MC with no issues, just need to remove the residual pressure valve from the front brake outlet of the MC. I've done this several times -- as long as you check your brake fluid level once every year or two you will be fine. The larger reservoir on older MCs is to ensure there is enough fluid to last the life of the pads. Most here check fluid levels occasionally. The larger reservoir was an attempt at idiot proofing... 

how do you remove the valve ? 


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72 matador 401 the beast
79 concord 2 door
72 matador 304 grasshopper
68 Rogue 406
93 Cherokee 4.0 5 speed



Posted By: Dylan 66 classic
Date Posted: Apr/24/2016 at 11:58am
If i use the scarebird instructions it says to use toyota previa disc but what hubs do i use? And will it change my bolt pattern?



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