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Starter Solenoids Keep Going Out

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Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36383
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Topic: Starter Solenoids Keep Going Out
Posted By: RB401
Subject: Starter Solenoids Keep Going Out
Date Posted: Jan/28/2012 at 9:17pm
My starter solenoid went out last week, so I ordered a new one from Pepboys.  It was a Borg Warner part, about $13.  (I am using the 5 pin solenoid for an automatic even though I run a T5 becuase I can use the 5th pin with the T5's neutral safety switch.) I install the solenoid, it works fine for about 2 starts and on the third start, apparently the contacts welded because the starter just kept spinning. I killed the ignition and frantically disconnected power to the starter. Figured it was just a bad part.  Call around and find another 5 pin solenoid at O'Reilys. Its another Borg Warner.  That one dies on the second attempt to start the car. No frozen contacts, but engine won't turn over.  Check Autozone and they have one thier (so called) Gold solenoids (about $22) in stock for a manual trans (4-pin) solenoid. Install this and all seems well, except, of course, if one were to accidentially start the car in gear, it would leap forward. (Not a good thing, would smash the car into the garage wall, or worse one could forget in a parking lot just as some small kid walks in front of the car.)  Autozone unfortuneatly does not sell a "gold" version of the 5 pin solenoid. 
 
Does anyone know of a higher quality 5-pin solenoid than the standard auto parts store stuff? 
 
One other thing, I recently installed a new battery.  It has 675 CCA and 835 CA.  I wouldn't be surprised if our cars originally had batteries with something like 500-600 cranking amps, so possibly the battery is just to much for a stock solenoid to handle.  Had this battery in the car about 4 months before the solenoid then in the car failed.  Don't recall what the cranking amps on the old battery were. 
 Anyone think the battery could be killing the solenoids?


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'73 Javelin AMX, 401, T5

T5 Swap Page: http://mysite.verizon.net/amxjavelin/t5swap/t5swap.html



Replies:
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/28/2012 at 10:16pm
The B/W parts that they sell are imported and just a license on the name.  Complete junk.  I have a NORS Standard Motor Products SS-582 five terminal solenoid that I will not be using.  You could have it for $35.00 plus shipping.  The old box is nice and kind of kool if you save those things.    P.M. me if you want it.

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Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

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Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jan/28/2012 at 10:59pm
No, battery capacity won't do that. The starter will draw what it needs regardless, big battery or small, the solenoid will be passing the same amount.
HOWEVER, a bad starter could if it's drawing too much. Might not hurt to have starter draw tested at a parts store or shop. (on the car, test under load of cranking)
 
Frankly, I've not had the ford style solenoids go bad unless they were old, or fried due to too much starter draw. To have two go so quickly is odd, regardless. I know parts are cheap now days, but that's a bit much.  I"d advise to not walk under any ladders, stay clear of black cats, and don't touch any mirrors lest you break one.
I wired a switch in the clutch pedal so I have to depress the clutch to crank the engine on my Eagle. There was no NSS with my T5 but the Jeep computer has provisions for a NSS - it had a wire that needed to be grounded to allow the 4.0 to crank and start, so I used that and wired a switch to the clutch.


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Posted By: RB401
Date Posted: Jan/29/2012 at 12:18am
Did some searching online.  The Standard Motors ss-582 is readily available from EBAY vendors.  AC Delco also made a 5 pin solenoid (Part No. C920), for AMCs and Jeeps. Said to be discontinued but possibly could be found by calling around.  I am also going to look into the starter draw issue.  Make sure all the connections are clean and tight and have it tested or see what an inductive ammeter costs.

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'73 Javelin AMX, 401, T5

T5 Swap Page: http://mysite.verizon.net/amxjavelin/t5swap/t5swap.html


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Jan/29/2012 at 11:14am
Why not push the pedal down every time you start the car wither it has a switch or not?
That is the way I was tought on ANY stick car or truck. Same with the brake in an auto car / truck.
This way you can use the normal 4 pin sol switch.
 
BTW I think it's the starter that is the issue not the sol. Have it tested as Billd said.
Dave ----


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TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jan/29/2012 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by FuzzFace2 FuzzFace2 wrote:

Why not push the pedal down every time you start the car wither it has a switch or not?
 
YES! That's the best way - HABIT
Originally posted by FuzzFace2 FuzzFace2 wrote:

That is the way I was tought on ANY stick car or truck. Same with the brake in an auto car / truck.
This way you can use the normal 4 pin sol switch.
 
Same here, that's how my grandfather taught me, my parents, then again in driver ed.
 
Dave - I 100% agree, however, with my, well, um, "issues", common habits are even forgotten. It's why I put that switch on my car...... experience. I know exactly what to do, how to do it, and why it's important....... but.... getting that out where it belongs doesn't always happen.
It's why I have had my hands in a table saw and needed over 40 stitches in my finger and thumb, run a 1/8" drill bit through my thumb, cracked my knee cap across the middle in a ladder mishap, broken a toe 3 times, etc. 
I for one was happy when the feds said that you have to have a brake pedal interlock on vehicles so that you could not shift out of park unless your foot was on the brake.
 
Otherwise, it's really supposed to be habit - press the clutch, or with an auto, press the brake pedal. Thus the lack of NSS on sticks like my car, like the VW Bunny I used to have, etc.


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Posted By: Peter Marano
Date Posted: Jan/29/2012 at 2:14pm
I have seen that contacts weld together when the battery was less than ideal.

The stock motorcraft starter is a short circuit until the moveable pole shoe opens the contacts, perhaps the contact are the problem.


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jan/29/2012 at 2:45pm
Agreed, Peter, because too low and it will draw more.
That is also a weak part of that starter design - that is indeed a heck of a draw and if that can't pull down completely, it keeps a heck of a draw on the circuit.
That's just a big washer coming across a couple of contacts inside the starter relay - they are the edges of the heads of the bolts that you connect the cables to.


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Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jan/29/2012 at 6:50pm
As above, I agree.............


Posted By: 73hornut
Date Posted: Jan/29/2012 at 7:06pm
Missing ground strap? Had this problem repeatedly on my hornet until I replaced the ground from engine to frame. Also added 1 from neg post to body, no more problems.


-------------
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74 Gremlin
79 Spirit AMX
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Posted By: carnuck
Date Posted: Jan/29/2012 at 9:19pm
When the nose bushing wears so the armature turns off-center on the Ford type starters, they draw so much extra energy that they weld the solenoid contacts.

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Posted By: RB401
Date Posted: Jan/29/2012 at 10:26pm
Ok, this morning I took the car to Autozone for a free starter draw test.  The starter only drew only 190 amps, so that does not appear to be the problem.  The battery being near new also checked out good.  What did not check out however, was the voltage regulator.  On his big orange tester, it showed up as being bad.  I had him run the test twice.  I have read that bad regulators can cause the solenoid contacts to hang up (though I don't why that would happen.)  Anyway, I converted the car to a Declo 12SI with internal regulator years ago.  So, I just installed a new 12 SI. (It's easy enough but you do have to drill the clearance hole in the alternator from 3/8 to 7/16.  No more 5 pin solenoids seem to be left in town, so I am going to get one Standard Products ST-582 types from a local EBAY seller.  I did take the car on 35 mile drive today with a 4 pin solenoid installed and everything seems to be working well.

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'73 Javelin AMX, 401, T5

T5 Swap Page: http://mysite.verizon.net/amxjavelin/t5swap/t5swap.html


Posted By: carnuck
Date Posted: Jan/30/2012 at 12:33am
190 is about 90 too high.

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Posted By: RB401
Date Posted: Feb/05/2012 at 3:50pm
Ok, fried another solenoid.  Voltmeter shows 12 volts across the solenoid battery and starter lugs and shows 12 volts at the terminal on the starter.  So, the starter it seems is dead.  Also, checked voltage on the ignition wire, because I was wondering if the ignition switch could have been slow to release or simply not releasing, but it appears okay, i.e. has 12 volts in start and drops quickly back to zero when released.  So, its off to get a new starter. 
 
I thought once the car was "restored", I wouldn't have much to do but drive it.  Not so, primarily because of poor replacement parts quality, nothing seems to stay fixed for long.

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'73 Javelin AMX, 401, T5

T5 Swap Page: http://mysite.verizon.net/amxjavelin/t5swap/t5swap.html


Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Feb/05/2012 at 3:57pm
With the quality of parts you get it seems it's just a crap shoot as to what will fail next.

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Posted By: RB401
Date Posted: Feb/05/2012 at 7:30pm
Help!
 
I just installed a new starter and a new solenoid and the engine will not turn over. I must be diagonosing this wrong. I have 12 volts coming from the ignition wire to the s-terminal on the solenoid when I turn the key to the start position. So, the ignition switch appears to be working properly.  When I turn the switch to the start postion nothing happens, no click, nothing.
With the key in the off position, I have 12 volts at the battery post on the solenoid and I have 12 volts at the starter post (not the little s-terminal) but the large post on the solenoid.  Since, I have 12 volts on the starter post, I also have 12 volts at the starter, (which doesn't seem right).  Again when, I turn the key to start, nothing happens.  If I jump (with a jumper cable) from the battery postive terminal to the starter post on the solenoid, the starter turns over.
 
Does anyone have any idea what is happening here? It's hard to believe I have gotten three bad solenoids in a row. Something must be wrong, but I can't figure it out.


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'73 Javelin AMX, 401, T5

T5 Swap Page: http://mysite.verizon.net/amxjavelin/t5swap/t5swap.html


Posted By: carnuck
Date Posted: Feb/05/2012 at 8:14pm
Is the ground wire off the back of the solenoid?

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Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Feb/05/2012 at 10:26pm
OK are ALL the batt. cables new out of box or are they old and look good? If they "look good" I would replace them and dont forget the ground behind the pass side motor mount.
If you run a wire from batt + to the S on the SOL the motor should turn over if not then there is something still wrong/bad somewhere. Now someone said something about a ground wire on the back of the SOL? I have never seen any with this on it but have seen that the SOL needs to be grounded to the inside fender so if you just painted it you may want to cleam off some of the paint to see if this does anything. The other thing the ground from batt to motor IIRC is to the head. Motor painted? Clean off the paint on the motor and put the ground back on.
Once you get the motor to turn over using the jumper wire from batt to SOL you can see if the normal wire will work.
Dave ----


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TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: RB401
Date Posted: Feb/05/2012 at 11:21pm
The motor does turn over if you jump from battery positive to the starter side of the solenoid.

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'73 Javelin AMX, 401, T5

T5 Swap Page: http://mysite.verizon.net/amxjavelin/t5swap/t5swap.html


Posted By: 73hornut
Date Posted: Feb/06/2012 at 7:56am
Originally posted by RB401 RB401 wrote:

The motor does turn over if you jump from battery positive to the starter side of the solenoid.
Bad ignition switch, or neutral safety switch?


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Posted By: RB401
Date Posted: Feb/06/2012 at 10:15pm
Ok, so after work, I went out and tried starting the car and what does it do--starts right up!  Tried it a few times, started each time.  So, the problem now seems like either a poor ground or an intermittant open circuit possibly in the s-wire from the ignition switch or maybe the ignition switch itself.  Next weekend, I will get out with the voltmeter and start resistance checking all of the starting system wires, clean the grounds, etc.  Replacing the s-wire from the ignition switch to the s-terminal on the solenoid is probably a hassle, so hopefully that wire will checkout okay.

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'73 Javelin AMX, 401, T5

T5 Swap Page: http://mysite.verizon.net/amxjavelin/t5swap/t5swap.html


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Feb/07/2012 at 8:41am
Ignition switches of that age can develop intermittent issues..... can be tricky to nail down.
DO NOT GIVE UP.



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Posted By: RB401
Date Posted: Feb/15/2012 at 10:40pm
Just wanted to say I finally fixed the solenoid problem last weekend.  I don't really know what the problem was, but the starting circuit is simple, so I replaced the starter, postive and negative battery cables, starter cable and the engine to chassis ground wire. The chassis ground wire was a 10 guage wire and appeared to have been original.  I replaced it with a short 4 guage starter cable. Cleaned all the connections with sand paper.  Checked for continuity through the s-wire and the neutral saftey switch (on the T5).  My guess, it was just a poor ground.  Anyway, no more solenoid hang-up and consequent starter run-on and in general all seems good.
 
Thanks for everyone's suggestions.


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'73 Javelin AMX, 401, T5

T5 Swap Page: http://mysite.verizon.net/amxjavelin/t5swap/t5swap.html


Posted By: jonb79
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 10:35am
From my experiece, I have seen constant duty solenoids (heavy duty solenoid used mainly in equipment) weld themselves close due to a stuck relay and or a switch that was bad. I don't know the the diagram of the starter circuit but it wouldn't be a bad idea to check the power at the switch with a voltmeter to see if power is being supplied to the starter relay even with the ign switch off.



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