Correct gasket for Edelbrock Intake
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Topic: Correct gasket for Edelbrock Intake
Posted By: fmahannah
Subject: Correct gasket for Edelbrock Intake
Date Posted: Aug/11/2011 at 5:55pm
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I was reviewing the instructions that came with my #7531 edelbrock manifold, and remembered an issue I had when I initially tried to install it. The instructions state: NOTE: YOU MUST USE a factory metal valley tray gasket along with the Edelbrock gaskets listed below. If your stock valley tray is in good condition, it may be re-used. 7530, 7531 (None) Edelbrock #7213; Port: 1.13” x 2.21”, .030” Thickness Then in the instructions they say: Apply Edelbrock Gasgacinch sealant P/N 9300 to both cylinder head flanges and to the cylinder head side of the gaskets, allow to air dry, and attach the intake gaskets to the cylinder head, then place the factory metal valley tray into position. All of this led me to think that I had to install BOTH the side gaskets #7213 AND a valley pan gasket. When I tried to do this, not matter how hard I tried the intake would not settle down far enough into the valley for me to line up the bolt holes! I tried several times and after reading on forums of people just using the valley pan gasket, I removed the extra side gaskets and installed just the valley pan like the factory did. This first install did not leak. Now that I am pretty sure I am leaking on the intake and sucking oil, do any of you know if indeed we have to use both the standard side gaskets AND the valley pan when installing an edelbrock aluminum intake? Personally I can't see how that could seal since the side gaskets are thick and the pan gasket is thin, so near the ports you would have both gaskets overlapped, and between the ports and the front and rear seal you would only have the metal pan gasket. Want to make sure I get this right this time, so what do you use when installing an edelbrock manifold, just the valley pan or just the side gaskets or both? Of course RTV or right stuff for the end seals. Thanks ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Replies:
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/11/2011 at 6:02pm
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Sorry i forgot that originally I had asked in here about the intake gaskets and was told to just use the valley pan gasket. Old age is definitely creeping up on me.
------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: mstrcrftr
Date Posted: Aug/11/2011 at 6:06pm
| the 7531 if i remember correctly is an air gap intake and if that is true then you dont need the valley pan. the valley pans original function was to keep the heated oil off the bottom of the original intakes. on the 7531 the huge gap between the carb and the lower portion of the intake manifold eliminates the heat transfer to the bottom of the carb, hence no valley pan needed. I use edelbrock gaskets on both left and right sides of the intake and used a bead of RTV on the ends instead of the rubber seals. |
Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Aug/11/2011 at 6:50pm
Dave ---- ------------- TSM = Technical Service Manual 75 Gremlin X v8 for sale 70 Javelin 360/auto drag car 70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car |
mstrcrftr wrote:Posted By: Midnight Rambler
Date Posted: Aug/11/2011 at 7:10pm
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Just the valley pan, it has the "side gasket" built into it. I also re-used my intake baffle, but as Fuzz said I don't think the Air-Gap allows it. It does let you put some sort of baffle (maybe they provide?) under the PCV - do that. As for the intake leak, I have an Offy 360 which I bought a Fel-Pro valley pan for. It just didn't want to play nice so I got a Victor Reinz and it fit like a glove. Maybe the Fel-Pro I got was an odd bad one, I don't know. I've had luck with their stuff and I know a lot of guys here swear by them, but if I used the one I had I was pressing my luck. -------------  '66 American 440 Convertible 290/M-40/AMC 20 3.15/PS/PB '04 Jeep Wrangler X Rocky Mountain Edition 4.0 5sp |
Posted By: gd5052
Date Posted: Aug/11/2011 at 7:31pm
| Aren't the early baffles thinner than later years ? |
Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Aug/11/2011 at 8:13pm
Dave ---- ------------- TSM = Technical Service Manual 75 Gremlin X v8 for sale 70 Javelin 360/auto drag car 70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 6:49am
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Do a search - there was a multi-page, really intense in-depth discussion on this exact same topic a few months back with a whole slew of answers and a bunch of great info and opinions. Please search first. Every answer posted in this thread so far is already here in other threads. -------------  http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 8:58am
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The manifold did come with a baffle for the PCV. They say you must use the valley pan but the instructions make you think you have to use both types of gaskets. I will just go with the valley pan again and this time not use the ultra black which I think is what is leaking. Will go with copper spray and gray around the water ports. Thanks guys ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 10:00am
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I hate to be the nay sayer again, but please don't pull the manifold without doing the necessary checks for leaks first. Don't get pulled into the parts changer attitude and guess. If a pressure check of the cooling system passed then your manifold is not leaking water. You may still have a vacume leak sucking oil and that could indeed be because you used silicone for a sealent where it is contra indicated. I.E. not where it will be touched by fuel vapors. I use Gel Seal for the ports but there are other non-hardenning products that will work as well. In the earlier thread that you will find in a search, I posted a pic of how to trim the Valley pan so that it can be used with the fiber side gaskets. This is what should be done to prevent the uptake of oil into the P.C.V. system and the valley pan also aids in cam oiling and return of oil to the lower eng. There are many good reasons to use both and few reasons not to. The basic premis is to trim the old valley pan so that the bolt holes and a small tab at each end hold the pan and the ports are left bare fiber gasket for sealing. You put the fiber gaskets on first and then tack the valley pan in place. With the ports and ridges around them cut out there is very little space taken up by the sheet metal. The sheet metal pulls down into the fiber and does not add thickness. Do not use end seals. Use a small bead of the Right Stuff or the like. My offer still stands if you would like to borrow my pressure test adapter for the manifold before you pull it. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 10:12am
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I appreciate your offer but I want to pull the intake anyhow so I can do a proper check of pushrod length with the pushrod length checked and recheck the condition of the lifters, etc. I searched for posts on intake gasket, will try a search for valley pan. Thanks ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: Ken_Parkman
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 11:47am
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I've had one air gap that had too high a casting above the ports on one side, and this excess material bound on the cast protrusion on the head for the valve cover. This did not allow it to sit down on the valley correctly, and there was an internal leak at the intake ports. It acted a little weird, but the real problem was it would suck oil especially after closing the throttle from high load. Machined the top of each side a little and everything was fine.
As for the baffle the air gap is a completely different shape and a stock style baffle cannot be used. To prevent pcv problems you should use the stock valley pan gasket. This combo is clearly not as good as the factory design for oil separation, but it seems to work. I've found the best is the factory system of both the valley pan gasket and the factory intake baffle, but as long as you have either of these things you seem to be OK. But if you have neither be prepared for a smoke show.
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Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 11:56am
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The manifold came with the small baffle for under the PCV valve. Mine is down in the valley correctly but I mistakenly used Black Ultra RTV around the intake ports and I am pretty sure that gasoline has washed it away and now sucking oil pretty bad. This time will try the gas proof spray copper on intakes and gray ultra on water ports, with right stuff for end seals. ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: THE MENACE
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 12:06pm
Edelbrock Air Gap with the provided baffel under the PCV, clean all surfaces with acitone, metal valley pan gasket with gaskacinch around intake ports (both sides), grey silicone sealer around water ports (thin coat both sides) and a bead across the front and back of the intake, install and let cure for 24 hours before filling cooling system. This has always worked perfect for me.
 ------------- Former Owner of: The Craig Breedlove "AERO AMX" Still Owner: SS/AMX #9 replica (THE BIG MENACE) 70 AMX 416, EFI, Nash 5 speed 70 Javelin 401, 727 (Wife's car) 72 Gremlin Autocross Project. |
Posted By: 71AMX4014SPD
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 12:22pm
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Do you also coat the intake bolt threads with a sealer? I've seen some seep oil up past the bolt heads. -------------  1968 Javelin 360 727 B/W/R 1970 AMX 390 4spd Bayshore Blue 1971 Jav/AMX 401 4spd B6 |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 12:25pm
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Yes I do use sealer on the bolt threads.Will check them for oil when I pull the intake. Thanks ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 12:27pm
The first time I installed the manifold it sealed fine, and I beat the heck out of the engine while testing the new carb. Just something I must have screwed up this time when I put it on after the cam swap. ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: THE MENACE
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 2:33pm
Good point! Yes I do. I knew I was forgetting something while I was typing. And flat washers help get a more consistant torque on the bolts too.
------------- Former Owner of: The Craig Breedlove "AERO AMX" Still Owner: SS/AMX #9 replica (THE BIG MENACE) 70 AMX 416, EFI, Nash 5 speed 70 Javelin 401, 727 (Wife's car) 72 Gremlin Autocross Project. |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/12/2011 at 2:35pm
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X2
------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: irish13jeff
Date Posted: Aug/15/2011 at 7:25pm
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Love the Mr. Gasket Ultra seals. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-5844 - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-5844 On aluminum intakes dont use the rubber seals that sometimes come with it. Instead apply a 1/4 bead of black permetex down the front and rear of block face where the intake will rest on it . Allow 15 min to pass for permetex to set up before setting the intake down on it . Also invest in some new intake bolts at your local parts store. Mr. gasket intake bolt kit for a Chevy will work, and makes it nice when getting things lined up.
------------- Please don't tell my parents I'm a truck driver..... They think I'm a piano player in a whore house... http://www.legionofjeepers.com |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 9:41am
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OK I finally pulled the intake again to try using the paper Eddy gaskets and the valley pan. Looks like it might be worse than I thought. The last time I pulled it I carefully cleaned all the old black oil and sludge out of the valley for a clean start. When I pulled the manifold, the oil pooled in the valley looked nice and clean until I pushed my finger through it. I did find one little piece of silver metal that looked finished on one side. Looking at what I can of the cam lobes I don't see any chips or damage, and lifters seem OK also. Might have been a leftover from when the cam breakin chewed up the old one piece bridged pivots, not sure. BUT I also noticed when stirring up the oil in the pockets of the valley that there was a silvery metallic paste below the oil. Looks like metallic paint when you stir it up. I assume this is a bad sign but not sure what actually comes off a cam when you break it in? Also read someone saying that the silver stuff is from break in oil, but I doubt that. Also, looking through the ports into the head at the valves that are closed showed oil actually pooled around the valves, maybe a quarter inch deep? No wonder I am smoking and going through oil so fast! The question is could this much oil actually be coming through a non sealed intake gasket? I know a lot of oil gets thrown around in the valley for the cam but this seems excessive? There was oil on top of the valley pan as well pooled where the drain hole is at the back of the pan gasket. I really don't have the funds to tear this thing down if the silvery oil is a sign of anything more major than a trashed cam and lifters, even that would take some saving up before I could swap the cam again. Is there any test I can do to determine where the silver metal came from? Should it be magnetic if it is from the cam or the lifters? I had also added some rislone to the oil in case I had rings sticking a bit, but I did not see any metallic additives in that when I added it. But it might have dislodged a lot of gunk left over from the cam breakin, at least that is what I am hoping for. ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 10:05am
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I just took a magnet to the silvery paste in the valley and it is not magnetic. Honestly I don't know what it could be other than aluminum. It is definitely silver not copper or steel colored. ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 10:31am
To make sure the cam/lifters aren't damaged, pull the lifters out and look at the base. If you have cam/lifter distress it'll be obvious on the bottom of the lifters. As to the silvery 'stuff', somewhere I have seen that after a cam installation and thought that it was from the cam break in lube. What you might want to try is taking a sample of the 'stuff', putting on a piece of white paper towel and washing the oil off with spray carb cleaner. You can look at what's left with a magnifying glass and see what you're up against. If it all dissolves in the carb cleaner, then it's not aluminum particles. Just my  , again.
As to the oil consumption, I put a set of aftermarket valve covers on a BB Mopar once that did not have the PCV baffle. Smoked so bad it looked like I was fogging for mosquitos. So yes, I think you can pull that much oil through an intake gasket leak. ------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 11:04am
Dig out a bunch of the silvery stuff and wash it with carb or brake cleaner through a coffee filter. After drying look at it with a mgnafying glass. You already know that it is not magnetic so its not iron and a cam break in issue would be iron. No oils have silvery metal particles in them. Not break in lube. Take a map gas torch and a griddle or steel plate and heat the particles while watching them in the magnifiier. Aluminum melts fairly high and it will take a few seconds for the particles to react and start to melt. If it melts almost immediately it is tin/lead/tern coating and you then need to start saving because that engine needs crank work. It is really starting to look like you have a whole bunch more miles on the car or engine than you think and a rebuild is in order. Thats a lot of old looking engine even for 50,000 miles without ever having the oil changed. At this point I think you are just chasing good money after bad and it's time to bite the bullet. Just get another runner motor for a couple of hundred and then do your possably original motor when you get the funds. A 304 should be easy to find for almost free. I'm sorry to say it but after thousands of motors that I have personally seen inside I think you need to take another approach here. I am not saying that is not your original motor but it is sooo dirty for 50,000 miles that you need to got through it anyways. Forum members should be able to help you with good parts or an engine and keep the cost down. especially if you want to stay with a 304 or 360. Sorry, but just a experienced oppinion and although not want you want to hear I beleive you need to hear it. I will help you anyway I can and others will. take this as an opportunity to make your car better for the future. Metal sludge is about as good as a heart attack. Don't ignore it or the heart of your car will die and we don't want that. I am sure we can do some searches on the internet and find you an engine for little or nothing you could drop in. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: irish13jeff
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 12:09pm
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Aluminum rocker bridges,not getting good oil to the rockers. Check the rocker bell cranks for wear and all the push rod holes to make sure they are all clear . Your gonna have oil in the valley pan do to the push rod passage holes. You won't get metal from the bottom end in the valley all metal will be from above that point. Oil on the valves are from bad seals and your gonna need a valve job ------------- Please don't tell my parents I'm a truck driver..... They think I'm a piano player in a whore house... http://www.legionofjeepers.com |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 12:39pm
I scraped up as much as I could of the silvery paste that was left and put it into one of my wifes nice water glasses  I then washed it all down to the bottom with brake cleaner. Added enough brake cleaner to let me shake it all around and clean it thoroughly. Then filtered it through paper towels and let them dry. Put the remains onto a white paper plate and looked through a magnifying glass. Whatever the silver looking stuff was actually dissolved and washed away with the brake fluid. What I was left with was just little bits of carbon and one little sliver of aluminum from when it chewed up the old bridge pivots. None of what remained was magnetic, and I could crush the larger little tiny bits into powder. Looks like I might have been freaking over nothing. So I am going to throw it back together with proper gaskets and see what happens. No funds for another engine since I won't settle for anything less than a 360-401, so if it is not still blowing oil I will drive it until it gives up LOL, and save some money for when that happens ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 12:41pm
I had already chewed up the old aluminum bridges and replaced everything with the newer steel components. There is no doubt I have aluminum in the engine since I had lost about .20 off the aluminum bridges ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: irish13jeff
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 1:02pm
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You can replace the valve seals without taking the head off and that will help with the oil burn. Just remove the spark plug and pressurize the cylinder with a fitting adapted to a air hose. Then you can remove the valve locks and springs ,then replace the seal ------------- Please don't tell my parents I'm a truck driver..... They think I'm a piano player in a whore house... http://www.legionofjeepers.com |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 1:53pm
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He already did that. If the originality is not an issue then go ahead and run her till she blows. If the cam is still good it will work in another engine alnong with the new T-Chain and of course the intake and the rockers, ect. You actually have a good start on the next engine already. No harm, No foul. The glittery stuff was carbon that can be veru shiney. Metal would not have desolved in cleaner. Run the FIBER gaskets and see what happens. Good luck. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 1:53pm
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Seals are already new as are the rockers, springs, retainers. springs, locks, pushrods, lifters, and cam.
------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 2:58pm
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Putting the fiber gaskets on now with the cut valley pan as recommended. Pain in the butt getting those outside pan bolt hole lips to stay down in the holes in the fiber gaskets at the corners. Yeah if she blows all I'd really need is a short block 360 and some shiny new edelbrock heads when I hit the lottery. I wish I still had all my tools and a garage, then the engine would already be out. But now I am stuck with a carport and no cherry picker. ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 3:30pm
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If you don't have it on yet you can use some super wheatherstrip addhesive there. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: irish13jeff
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 3:44pm
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Oh!!! The carbon must be do to the oil crystallize from the heat exchange on the intake. If you run the mr. Gasket ultra seal gasket it would block the heat exchange and fix the carbon problem. If you use that gasket don't use the rubber gasket for the front and rear . Instead use black permatecs , allow 15min before placing the intake on. If the seals are good then the valve guides are bad and allowing oil to pass by. If your gonna run to you blow it or don't mind the oil consumption ,let it ride .
------------- Please don't tell my parents I'm a truck driver..... They think I'm a piano player in a whore house... http://www.legionofjeepers.com |
Posted By: irish13jeff
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 3:51pm
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I use the adhesive on the head side and place the corner bolts in until dry to keep the gasket lined up. I also swear by the new intake bolts (small block chevy) will work at autozone. never use the valley pan with the fiber gasket,never had problem with it. ------------- Please don't tell my parents I'm a truck driver..... They think I'm a piano player in a whore house... http://www.legionofjeepers.com |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 6:33pm
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I managed to get it back together with both the fiber and the pan. Getting all the holes to line up on both sides at the same time is probably one of the hardest things I have ever had to do to a car. Royal pain in the ... But it's together and I seriously doubt it will leak this time. Letting it sit overnight, will put the rest back on tomorrow and then see what happens. ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 8:23pm
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Got my fingers crossed for you!!!!
------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: kwkslvr73
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 8:52pm
Good luck man!! we're pulling for ya...
------------- 360 5-speed orig owner... http://s274.photobucket.com/user/gremlum/media/newwheels2012001.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/20/2011 at 9:33pm
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Before you fire it in the morning re- tourque the bolts and then again after a run up and cool down cycle. the fiber gasket will bed in and conform to any mis matches you may have. It will still smoke for a good while with that much oil in theer. Good luck. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 10:22am
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Ok she's running again, smoking like crazy. Drove about 25 miles getting on it most of the way. Car runs great, lots of power, and still smoking like crazy. Any idea how long it might take to burn the old oil out of the system? I have a feeling if it doesn't stop then it has to be valve guides or rings. Not sure if valve guides could let it smoke constantly though? Thanks for all of the help guys. I guess until I drive it for a while we won't really know the result of all of your good advice. ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 11:17am
Good deal. Now you know it is sealed and it's not PCV because you have all the baffles in place. Are you sure the return holes from the back of the head are really clear of debris and carbon. If the oil cannot drain back it will fill the head and burn more through the guides. A screw driver down the holes will tell. It will take many miles to get rid of the smoking especially if you have glass packed style mufflers. Put a 195 t-stat in there and drive the heck out of it. A heavy dose of Lucas fuel system cleaner may help also but the cure is gonna be miles. Drive it, Drive it, Drive it. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: irish13jeff
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 11:22am
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Run a compression test,first dry and then wet(Pull plug and add just a little oil to cylinder). If the comression rises when wet then its rings.If your valve guides are bad enough it will allow oil to pass,therefore constantly smoke.Your original rockers could have damaged the guides when they went bad. ------------- Please don't tell my parents I'm a truck driver..... They think I'm a piano player in a whore house... http://www.legionofjeepers.com |
Posted By: irish13jeff
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 11:29am
Yes!! would be a good thing to check He could also do a bleed down to check the valve seals and that would eliminate all guess work as far as head issue. ------------- Please don't tell my parents I'm a truck driver..... They think I'm a piano player in a whore house... http://www.legionofjeepers.com |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 11:52am
I did stick a screwdriver down both drains on each side when I had the valve covers off. I already switched to a 205 t-stat from the 195. Factor temp guage only reads a quarter, aftermarket temp gauge rides at 205-210 One other thing I noticed is that it seems like I have more oil pressure at idle than I had before? I did have the oil pump apart but packed with vaseline and primed the oil system before starting the car. Wondering if too much oil pressure at idle might contribute to smoking. Mufflers are Flowmaster 40's ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: irish13jeff
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 12:26pm
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Whats the oil pressure at? ------------- Please don't tell my parents I'm a truck driver..... They think I'm a piano player in a whore house... http://www.legionofjeepers.com |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 12:29pm
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It used to be that when fully warmed up in gear at idle it was 20 or just a little below. Now it is 30 and does not seem to ever drop below that. I did switch to 20w50 from 10w40 but did not think it would make that much difference in the oil pressure. ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 12:32pm
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Nope, In an AMC there is no way to have too much oil pressure at Idle really. What you have is a better sealed engine. The difference in internal pressure can affect the diaphram in the op sender a little bit. You are also returning more and cooler oil to the pan because you have no cross over heat. What is your hot O.P. at a steady cruise after a half hour warm up. What does it start out at on the HWY. and waht does it stabilise at after a half hour at HWY speed. That will tell you the condition of the bearings which in turn will tell how much oil is being thrown on the cylinder walls where the oil rings need to deal with it. A compression test will tell you nothing but compression ring condition and a leak down test will not reveal anything about the guides. Rockers will not damage your guides either althogh they could accelerate the wera. That would not have happened overnight like your issue. I think you had a pretty good manifold leak and now have glazed oil rings. Run the heck out of it and they may re-seat or free up. Try a can of Rislone oil Detergent. Not the flush stuff but the Detergent additive. Eagle One has a good detergent additive also. If it smells like Kerosene do not use it. It should smell a bit like laundry soap. It is the same ype stuff already in oild detergent packages with new oil. I have had that work well. Or switch to full synthetic to help clean the rings up. I use the Napa stuff because it's cheap and very detergent in quality. Cleans up old dirty engines real well. Also burns at a much higher temp so might smoke less. 20w50 is a 50 weight oil and is twice as viscous as the 40 weight you were using. That will give you your 10 lbs in a decent engine. The first number is the wiinter flow rate and has nothing much to do with warm pressure. And a narrower spread between the two numbers make a more stabile oil at higher temps. Thats whay racers use single weights for consistancy. They also have less viscocity improvers and stabilisers(WAX) in them. 20w50 is a better oil for you except below about 50 degrees. Then it gets a bit heavy. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: irish13jeff
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 12:46pm
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Yep the thicker oil will cause the higher oil pressure. 30 really isn't bad , I think factory is like 20-25 at idle and thats not gonna cause the engine to smoke. Id run it and see if it clears up,cant hurt.If it doent clear up then you know your gonna need to do some motor work. Check the compression wet and dry to rule the rings out. ------------- Please don't tell my parents I'm a truck driver..... They think I'm a piano player in a whore house... http://www.legionofjeepers.com |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 1:36pm
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I had previously done a compression test on all cylinders and all were from 150-160 This was with throttle open and all plugs out. Just now did a quick test on #6 cylinder without opening throttle. 135 dry, 150 wet. I know there will always be a little improvement wet, but the question is how much is too much? ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 2:02pm
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Your on the edge. Glazed cyilnders from the oil. Run it. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: kwkslvr73
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 2:17pm
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X2...
------------- 360 5-speed orig owner... http://s274.photobucket.com/user/gremlum/media/newwheels2012001.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: irish13jeff
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 2:22pm
x2 That's not to bad,should be no more than 20% change beween the highest reading piston to the lowest reading piston. So just as 69 ambassador said "run it"...at worst case and the smoking doesnt stop you'll need to envest in a head job.Good Luck my friend and keep us updated on the outcome. ------------- Please don't tell my parents I'm a truck driver..... They think I'm a piano player in a whore house... http://www.legionofjeepers.com |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 2:34pm
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I plan to run it down the road some every day until it stops smoking or I get tired of it and take it in for head work LOL. One thing I did notice though was where before the center two cylinders on each side the plugs looked like they were washed clean, now they are starting to burn light brown like normal so must be heading in the right direction. Thanks guys! Will keep you posted ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: Midnight Rambler
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 3:32pm
Have you considered using some Seafoam through the carb to clean it out quicker? ------------- '66 American 440 Convertible 290/M-40/AMC 20 3.15/PS/PB '04 Jeep Wrangler X Rocky Mountain Edition 4.0 5sp |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 3:47pm
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I did that with my 91 Cherokee with 250,000 miles, but saw some bad reports about it and not sure I want to risk it with the Javelin. I will probably get some of the detergent stuff recommended and try that though. I don't drive much and don't want to wait weeks to see if she stops smoking LOL
------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 5:48pm
Brown plugs  ------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: Midnight Rambler
Date Posted: Aug/21/2011 at 6:41pm
If you're concerned with hydrolocking the engine you can use the Seafoam in the spray can. I guess a Techron treatment might also work in lieu of the faster (and more dramatic) Seafoam through the carb. Either would help clear out any residues from oil that seeped in through the intake seals and let you move forward on it more quickly. Good luck. ------------- '66 American 440 Convertible 290/M-40/AMC 20 3.15/PS/PB '04 Jeep Wrangler X Rocky Mountain Edition 4.0 5sp |
Posted By: darrylrae
Date Posted: May/14/2012 at 6:07pm
| Hi. What was the final verdict if at all with the oil problem and the Air Gap? I am currently having the same problem. I used just the runner gaskets with no valley pan and it's burning lots of oil. This will be the third Edelbrock intake on this engine and each time I only used the runner gaskets with no issues. Had the Air Gap off twice now, can't find any issues. Everything seems to line up very well. I unhooked the PCV for about 5 mins. with no difference in oil consuption. Any thoughts? |
Posted By: fmahannah
Date Posted: May/14/2012 at 6:18pm
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It turned out the real cause of my oil burning was rubber valve seals being squished every cycle because of the cam lift. Switched back to hard seals and that stopped it until I can have the heads done with positive seals and new guides. On the intake I ended up using BOTH the valley pan and the gaskets, but it sure was not easy to get the holes lined up ------------- 74 Javelin AKA Ghost |
Posted By: Midnight Rambler
Date Posted: May/14/2012 at 7:08pm
My oil usage completely stopped with new valve seals as well, although I had cracked and worn hard seals replaced with the same. And when I converted from 2V to 4V, I also used the valley pan with an Offy intake. From the oil ghosting on the bottom of the old pan to the oil I lost through the bad seals, I'm a true believer in the ability of AMC engines to get the oil all the way up top. There's no way I'd do an intake without using the valley pan gasket, it's just asking for trouble. ------------- '66 American 440 Convertible 290/M-40/AMC 20 3.15/PS/PB '04 Jeep Wrangler X Rocky Mountain Edition 4.0 5sp |
Posted By: 1968Javelin343
Date Posted: May/15/2012 at 7:29am
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I also had a problem with the air gap and no valley pan gasket. I found that the fiber gasket (old stock Mr. Gasket fiber style) was too old or too hard to compress and fully seal the bottom of the intake runners. This may be from a slight angle differential between the head sealing surface and the angle milled on the intake, but I did not measure it at the time. Consequently, I was drawing oil through both the PCV and through the gasket at the bottom of the runners. I put a pan gasket in place with the recommended sealer around the ports and the problem went away.
Bryan ------------- Bryan 1968 Javelin 343 |