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Brakes and Bonded Vs Riveted

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: Suspension, Steering, Brakes & Wheels
Forum Description: What makes it stop, turn, and smooths the ride
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27956
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 11:56am
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Topic: Brakes and Bonded Vs Riveted
Posted By: Gremlinamc1975
Subject: Brakes and Bonded Vs Riveted
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 2:06pm
Getting ready to do the brakes on the Gremlin, and was looking for some info.

what i have is a 1970 Gremlin 232, all drum manual,

as far as i know, no brake work has ever done to this vehicle. i have a few wheel cylinders leaking, and was looking at rebuilding the whole system, except the Master Cylinder and Distribution Block as i believe they work (But haven't tested yet).

What would you recommend, I'm looking at replacing all Wheel Cylinders, Shoes, Drum Hardware Kit, Drum Self Adjuster Kit, Rubber Hydraulic Hose.

and ruff idea what it cost to have the drums turned? or will it be cheaper in the long run to replace the drums.

And what would be the advantage to Bonded over Riveted.

Bonded is glued, but would cover a little bit more surface space
but wouldn't the riveted also be partially glued also?


Any thoughts would be welcome, Brands to watch out for, such things like this would help.


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1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,



Replies:
Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 2:21pm
I'd reconsider tossing the master cylinder on the list. They wear just like a wheel cylinder.
Drum turning cost is a regional thing and is only possible if the drum is salvageable. Each drum has a measurable limit as to how much can be removed. The maximum is cast right into the drum face.


Posted By: bikerfox
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 2:27pm
Hey Grem,
 
Just my $.02 on brakes. Just finished overhauling the brakes on my SC--front disc, rear drum, and it wasn't much fun (no pun intended!)!  My rear brakes had never been touched and were original.  I like your idea of replacing all parts, although I found the brake spring hold down pins and bottom cups were of inferior quality to the Bendix parts on the car since '69.  Other than those parts, everything (in the rear) except the F & R lines were replaced in my car.  I replaced the MC since all other parts were new and also decided to use DOT 5, silicone fluid, as Dot3/4 fluid on paint sucks!!  I turned my drums as they'd never been turned before and it's cheap--about $10/ea.  New drums, as long as yours haven't been turned too much (more than .060) or are cracked are far more expensive.  As far as riveted vs. bonded shoes are concerned, I looked far and wide for "organic material" shoes. The semi-metallic shoes you'll find in Napa, for example, contain too many metal particles for our old drums. I finally found decent shoes in organic format from kragen/oreilly and they were not pricey.  My original shoes were riveted and the new shoes were also riveted, but the right shoe compound, IMO, is more important than how the shoes are attached to the metal structure.  Hope this helps you.


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1969 Rebel SST (1970-1987)
1968 AMX (2005-2011)
1969 SC/Rambler (2011-2019)
1970 Javelin (2019 to ?)"Jane"


Posted By: ramblinrev
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 2:36pm
I agree with changing all the parts, including the master cylinder. I like RockAuto.com for the widest variety of parts to choose from, some at very good prices. I used to think the way to go was a new master cylinder rather than a rebuilt, but have had a not so good experience with a new one made in China (sold under a great brand name.) I'd take a rebuilt one done by Cardone instead.
 
Remember to bench bleed the new master cylinder (as per instructions) before installing it.
 
 


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74 Hornet Hatchback X twins (since 1977)
62 American Convertible (still worth the $50 I spent in 1973!) AMCRC #513, AMO #384
70 AMX 360 4-speed (since 1981)


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 3:28pm
Bonded shoes have 100% friction material to backing contact and shed heat faster to the metal parts better which could give another application or two before fade occurs.  Riveted does not shed heat as well but can be more secure than a questionable bond from china.  I agree with the organic material.  I have 300,000 miles on the front rotors on my car and they have never had anything but organic pads.  If I put semi-metalic pads on I'm sure my rotors would be gone in short order.  Same holds true for shoes.  If you are not road racing then the original style should be fine.  If uprgading for better performance then get new finned drums and run a modern pad/shoe.  The wear will be accelerated but you will stop better.  A turned drum has less contact with the shoe because of the diameter change.  In the old days all replacement shoes were made with extra material so you could grind the shoe to match the new diameter.  I still have a shoe grinder but it is from a time when asbestose dust was not bad for you and smoking made you live longer.  I won't be using it.  If you buy old NOS or NORS shoes and they seem to be too thick it is because they need to be ground to fit.  Most modern stuff is made to be thrown out and replaced so they usually fit when new.

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Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: Gremlinamc1975
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 3:47pm
Ok so you talked me into include the Master Cylinder, guess i better not half rump it, Wagner looks like the only one in the photo that is even close to what mine even looks like, i like to keep it looking as original as possible,  but it says this in the description.

WAGNER Part # MC56193 {#F56193}
w/Man. Brake; w/Vac. Boost; 1" Bore

 that mean it can be used in both applications?

Also is it all 9" drums or are there 10 in the rear?


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1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,


Posted By: Gremlinamc1975
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 3:51pm
and does any one know where to get a cheap brake drum Micrometer, remember my grandfather having one, was plastic, but he is a little ways away


**Edit**

Found one simular,
http://www.automotivetoolsonline.com/KD-Tools-3377-Brake-Resetting-Gauge-KD3377_p_11465.html# - http://www.automotivetoolsonline.com/KD-Tools-3377-Brake-Resetting-Gauge-KD3377_p_11465.html#


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1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,


Posted By: bikerfox
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 4:01pm
You can buy from Galvin, APD, or Kennedy and you should be assured that the MC is the correct one. I'm guessing that what you found will most likely work.  Do you have a TSM? If so, there are instructions for how "far" the brake shoes need to contact the drum. In my TSM, it states that about 1/4" of threads in the adjuster need to show, but you can also do it by feel.  As my friends told me, it shouldn't be too easy to install the drum, but not too hard, either. Then, the TSM talks about backing up the vehicle, doing hard stops, which will adjust the brakes as well. I don't believe you need that gauge.
 
Steve


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1969 Rebel SST (1970-1987)
1968 AMX (2005-2011)
1969 SC/Rambler (2011-2019)
1970 Javelin (2019 to ?)"Jane"


Posted By: Gremlinamc1975
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 5:59pm
Well iv always liked the Gauge, and has always made installing the drum easier for me, and it gives me a reason for my girlfriend to let me buy another tool ;) just tell her i can use it on your truck too when it comes to brakes..

I do need a TSM... but where is the best place to grab one, i don't care if its a reprint or pdf.


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1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,


Posted By: bikerfox
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 6:24pm
There are several right now on eBay for $50+.  In the search box, type in "1970 amc manual" without the quotes and you'll see them. You may also want to get one of the Haynes manuals for early '70's cars as well on eBay.  I like lots of reading materials about my vehicle!

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1969 Rebel SST (1970-1987)
1968 AMX (2005-2011)
1969 SC/Rambler (2011-2019)
1970 Javelin (2019 to ?)"Jane"


Posted By: bigbad69
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 7:15pm
http://www.faxonautoliterature.com/Search.aspx?k=shop+manual&c=40130 - 75 Gremlin TSM

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69 Javelin SST BBO 390 T10


Posted By: Gremlinamc1975
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 8:05pm
I remember why i never got one, wasn't sure if that the 70 would list gremlin, as it isn't stated on the front of the books, or would i just look under hornet?

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1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 9:31pm

I've have very good luck with new brake parts from rockauto.

I will NOT ever use a rebuilt master cylinder, ever ever. I spent too bloody many years doing hundreds of brake jobs and have too much experience with reman masters. CRAP.

I like riveted brake shoes and pads. Although bonded do transfer heat, I've seen my share of the bonded shoes let loose, and the riveted ones are quieter.  (ever pull a drum and have the lining fall off a riveted shoe? I have on the bonded shoes......... ) Frankly, of all the brakes I've worked on over the past 35+ years, I can't say I've ever been able to tell how one type of shoe stopped better or worse than another - the material and CoF is more important, IMO, as is the fit, and drum surfacing.

I rarely do a complete brake job and leave the original master cylinder in place - very rarely.

I fit shoes to drums, always. Now days it's usually with a mallet (not a mullet), but I've also seen too many new shoe sets hit the drum at the leading and trailing ends and cause issues. The shoes should hit the drum in the middle of the shoe, and the ends not quite touch. That's the non-technical description. There are clearance specs for the arc of a shoe - the shoe fit to drum, but if you get them at least so there's not a gap in the middle, but the ends hit, and instead make the middle hit and the ends have a bit of a gap, you'll be better than most brake jobs done today by dealerships, sears, etc.

Pretty much ignore the TSM on "how many threads" should show. How the heck can they know how much was removed from the drum, the thickness of the new linings etc?? I run them up until they drag, then back them off a bit, drive the car to break in the brakes, then re-adjust. It's a feel you get after your umpteenth brake job as to how tight or loose to do them, but basically, tighten until the drum is difficult to turn, then back off the adjuster so there's no real drag. Backing the car up and pumping the brakes will get them where they want to be. Takes a long straight driveway, and a lot of foot action on the brake pedal. It's the working of the shoes out and in that does the adjusting.
Make sure the backing plate pads are smooth! Sand them, weld them up and file/grind them flat and smooth again if needed. Clean and paint, and lube the pads where the shoes rest against.
 
NOTE the way the return springs are installed - there is a correct order to them.....
 
Note shoe type..........
 
pads on backing plate smooth, painted, then lubed:
 


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http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com


Posted By: Gremlinamc1975
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 10:07pm
Aren't Bother Rear Wheel Cylinders the same, not side priority? but the front are correct?



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1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,


Posted By: bikerfox
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 11:31pm
Nice pics, Billd!

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1969 Rebel SST (1970-1987)
1968 AMX (2005-2011)
1969 SC/Rambler (2011-2019)
1970 Javelin (2019 to ?)"Jane"


Posted By: KermitDRambler
Date Posted: Mar/28/2011 at 11:52am
Originally posted by Gremlinamc1975 Gremlinamc1975 wrote:

Aren't Bother Rear Wheel Cylinders the same, not side priority? but the front are correct?

 
Generally, rears are the same and fronts are different. The reason (in general) fronts are different is because the brake hoses go into them at an angle and the casting is drilled differently on each side.
 
Matt


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1967 American wagon

http://www.mattsoldcars.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.mattsoldcars.com


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Mar/28/2011 at 12:31pm
Uh, no - there's definite left and right rear on Javelin, etc - the lines enter at a slight angle from the back.
Two different numbers.
Same for the Eagle - two different numbers, there's a left rear and a right rear.

It might vary between models, but for the Javelin/AMX series and Eagles they are indeed different.




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http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Mar/28/2011 at 12:40pm
I have found that riveted are usually better quality materials and Ive had bonded break loose.......


Posted By: toolmanxiii
Date Posted: Mar/28/2011 at 1:50pm
Just had to redo the rear brakes on a friends Eagle because he bought bonded shoes that separated. And I do mean redo. everything was bent and mangled . I bought riveted this time so it doesn't happen again. And the rear on my 71 Hornet  have a left and right WC to make room for the rear sway bar linkage. And being a Bendix system the local parts shop had everything in stock.    

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71 360 Hornet sst 83 2wd 360/727 Eagle wagon (crashed)



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