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291c Heads

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27160
Printed Date: Mar/29/2024 at 1:44am
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Topic: 291c Heads
Posted By: GREM
Subject: 291c Heads
Date Posted: Feb/28/2011 at 8:39pm
I bought a set of 1970 291c heads. They have about 70,000 miles on them. I have a 1969 390 Gen II motor from an AMX with stock logs & intake manifold. I would like to install these heads, & add either a Performer or Air Gap manifold, & a set of dogleg headers to help things flow a little better. Couple questions...

It's my understanding that I will need the (4) step up dowels & the 70-72 head gaskets to install. What about the head bolts...weren't they smaller on the 68/69 blocks but I don't know what size holes the 291c heads have as I haven't picked them up yet. Are they the same & if not what am I going to have to do to make these heads fit?Confused  Any help would be appreciated.





Replies:
Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Feb/28/2011 at 8:50pm
The 68-69 390 blocks have 7/16" head bolts. The "91C" heads have the through holes for 1/2" head bolts. To bolt the 91C heads to the '68-'69 390 block requires the step dowels. The step dowels help locate the gaskets but more importantly, they locate the heads. There are a few sources for the step dowels so, they are not hard to find.


Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Feb/28/2011 at 9:09pm
Wow...that was fast! Thanks... So nothing needs to be done to the block itself right?

Next question...They need to be cleaned up so does anything need to be done to be able to use today's unleaded gasses as far as a rebuild. What's recommended? 


Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Feb/28/2011 at 9:43pm
"Wow...that was fast! Thanks... So nothing needs to be done to the block itself right?" Right, nothing needs to be done except you should use the step dowels.

"Next question...They need to be cleaned up so does anything need to be done to be able to use today's unleaded gasses as far as a rebuild. What's recommended?" This one will get some commentary. AMC heads did have a higher Nickel content in their castings than most other passenger car heads of the era. However, AMC did harden the seats in about '74 when the unleaded gas came in. Personally, I have ran a lot of real street miles (thousands)on the the older heads with out the hardened seats with no ill effect. It is your call and your pocket book. If the seats are worn and need replaced anyway, I would put the hardened seats in. If not, I wouldn't.


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/28/2011 at 10:11pm
Ditto.  !00,000 miles on the current set of non hardened seats.   No issues.  I am now pulling them for use on my 84 wagoneer.  I will not be doing a valve job but just a clean and paint.  The new 291s I am installing just came back from the shop and only needed a touch up on the seats.  I have seen more recession problems on later heads and they may have lowered the nickel content when they went to induction hardened seats.  I Think those problems were caused by the machine shop hogging out the hardened areas.  If putting larger valves in I would add the exhaust seats but if not you should have no problems providing you don't overheat the enging.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Feb/28/2011 at 10:34pm
Thanks...kinda the response I was hoping for. I have a new four core sitting here so hopefully cooling won't be a problem.
I'm leaning towards a Performer intake manifold #2131 & a set of Hedman headers # 98316. Am I on the right path for a good combo with a 2.25 exhaust system?


Posted By: jeremy0711
Date Posted: Feb/28/2011 at 10:36pm
Your best bet would be to ask your machine shop if your heads need them. I had three sets and they all shown some sign of wear with sucken seats and all. Mine also had worn out guides too. They ran great though. I guess there is a tolerance of what some allow. Your question would fall into the line of asking them if you valves were and good or not. The heads on my car are a 22,000 mile 993 heads that needed 660 bucks of work somehow. Recon was the reman company. Had the same issue with a set of 289 heads too. Could I have driven them? Yeah, but it wasn't right.

are any of your valves sucken? Pop off a few springs and see if you have any side to side play in a valve when not fully seated.     


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Feb/28/2011 at 10:39pm

A local guy here in Phoenix and on the forum makes the step dowels if you can't find them elsewhere.  His price is very reasonable and a little less than you will find elsewhere. If you use the 291C heads and a performer or airgap, be sure to get the earlier one and drill new center bolt holes in either the heads or the intake. The later intakes are wider than the early intake and should be milled to fit right or you can just use the earlier intake and redrill the center bolt holes for the intake.



-------------
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/28/2011 at 11:08pm
Originally posted by jeremy0711 jeremy0711 wrote:

Your best bet would be to ask your machine shop if your heads need them. I had three sets and they all shown some sign of wear with sucken seats and all. Mine also had worn out guides too. They ran great though. I guess there is a tolerance of what some allow. Your question would fall into the line of asking them if you valves were and good or not. The heads on my car are a 22,000 mile 993 heads that needed 660 bucks of work somehow. Recon was the reman company. Had the same issue with a set of 289 heads too. Could I have driven them? Yeah, but it wasn't right.

are any of your valves sucken? Pop off a few springs and see if you have any side to side play in a valve when not fully seated.     
Recon is a hack mass production factory.  You were lucky to get 22,000 miles and lucky you didn't drop a valve from miss matched keepers.  I used to sell them and they came back a bunch.  They would even weld up cracks through spark plug holes and then not install inserts.  Every pair of AMC heads I sold from them had the crack at the rear bolt hole.  They would weld them cold and then try to paint it cast to hide it.  Had a few seats drop also.  Are they still in buisness?
 
 Also,  you will always find a little wobble in the exhaust stems as they are not a constant diameter.  They are tapered toward the valve end about a thou.  because they expand from the heat.  The intakes are not tapered and should have very little side play.  The exhaust would have a little just off the seat.  Pull the exhaust way out from the seat to get past the taper to check those.


-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: jeremy0711
Date Posted: Mar/01/2011 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

Originally posted by jeremy0711 jeremy0711 wrote:

Your best bet would be to ask your machine shop if your heads need them. I had three sets and they all shown some sign of wear with sucken seats and all. Mine also had worn out guides too. They ran great though. I guess there is a tolerance of what some allow. Your question would fall into the line of asking them if you valves were and good or not. The heads on my car are a 22,000 mile 993 heads that needed 660 bucks of work somehow. Recon was the reman company. Had the same issue with a set of 289 heads too. Could I have driven them? Yeah, but it wasn't right. are any of your valves sucken? Pop off a few springs and see if you have any side to side play in a valve when not fully seated.     
Recon is a hack mass production factory.  You were lucky to get 22,000 miles and lucky you didn't drop a valve from miss matched keepers.  I used to sell them and they came back a bunch.  They would even weld up cracks through spark plug holes and then not install inserts.  Every pair of AMC heads I sold from them had the crack at the rear bolt hole.  They would weld them cold and then try to paint it cast to hide it.  Had a few seats drop also.  Are they still in buisness?
 
 Also,  you will always find a little wobble in the exhaust stems as they are not a constant diameter.  They are tapered toward the valve end about a thou.  because they expand from the heat.  The intakes are not tapered and should have very little side play.  The exhaust would have a little just off the seat.  Pull the exhaust way out from the seat to get past the taper to check those.


My 289 heads had all undersized valves, wrong guides installed, I personally called and verified if they install hardened seats and was told, "Yes", I was also suppose to have flat top pistons which I didn't get. I sold the car and got the engine back for free after hitting a cherokee head on at 80 mph and totaled the car out. The car was wrapped around the engine so I paid for it really. My AMC heads which I thought just needed an inspection and clean up... My machine shop called me up and laughed cause I already told him the story on the 289 heads from Recon. 4 bad valves, guides completely worn out, and seats needed to be hardened( I was expecting that from them). 22,000 miles?..with a laugh is what he kept saying.... They were still in business through local parts stores....not for sure but oreilys and advance did two years ago. autozone which is who I bought the engine through dropped them a long time ago.    


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/01/2011 at 3:45pm
AutoZone is who I was working for when I sold them.  Nearly a 100% comeback or adjustment rate.  Recon sucks real hard and they are not even fit as a core when you buy them.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/01/2011 at 4:32pm
amx39068...I'm interested in those step dowels if you could PM me with contact information. Also how much needs to be milled off the later airgap for a good fit?
 
Thanks


Posted By: mramc
Date Posted: Mar/01/2011 at 6:13pm
If your doing a full engine rebuild you might want to have the block redone for the 1/2 inch latter head bolts on the 390, and get a new set of head bolts. Always a good idea after 40 years. Torque the heads to the latter higher specs for the heads. The earlier head were torqued to what ?15 pounds less and tended to blow out. I did this on my former 390 with 291-c heads with very good results.LRDaum

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LRDaum


Posted By: jeremy0711
Date Posted: Mar/01/2011 at 6:49pm
You can also use the 70 and up heads with the earlier intake like a hard to find R4B and have the center holes drilled out on the heads and tapped out so no mods are needed on the intake side and all looks stock. Of course, it is cheaper to drill the intake but not if you want an R4B since they are not worth as much jacked up.   

I thought APD and Kennedy American had the dowels for the heads... Does Bulltear?   


Posted By: BassBoat
Date Posted: Mar/01/2011 at 7:31pm
the difference in deck height between the early and late blocks is 0.033.  So you need to cut 0.033 off the intake ports to fit a later intake on an early motor. 
bb


Posted By: bigbad69
Date Posted: Mar/01/2011 at 10:12pm
I have doglegs on my early 390 - used 7/16" ARP head bolts. I got the step dowels from Kennedy. I also had the intake (later R4B) planed as BassBoat said. It would not sit down low enough for the bolt holes (and ports) to line up properly otherwise.

-------------
69 Javelin SST BBO 390 T10


Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/01/2011 at 11:31pm
Thanks all...great information. The engine runs fine but I want (not necessarily need) the dog leg ports. So... mill the intake ports 0.033, install new 7/16" ARP head bolts, & use the step dowels.

I found a set of step dowels when I dropped off the AMC 20 for a little attention.

Thanks to ---1970390amx---I don't need the step dowels...he just happened to have a set in his toolbox.

Smile 


Posted By: 1970390amx
Date Posted: Mar/02/2011 at 12:45am
I should of thought of this earlier but would you be interested in an edelbrock r4b? I have, I think an early one in the crawl space. You would need to modifiy the center holes, You said you didn't want to do that but would be easier than milling a new manifold. Just a thought.

-------------
1970 390 4speed Bittersweet shadow mask AMX
1970 Amx missing most everything, or in a box


Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/02/2011 at 2:07am
 An unmolested r4b in the crawl space? Start crawling! The answer is yes...shoot me a PM...please...
What's the best way to modify this without guesswork?




Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/02/2011 at 7:23am
You could mill the intake side of the heads if you are getting them done any way.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: 1970390amx
Date Posted: Mar/02/2011 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by GREM GREM wrote:

 An unmolested r4b in the crawl space? Start crawling! The answer is yes...shoot me a PM...please...
What's the best way to modify this without guesswork?


As long as you will be at the club meeting wednesday I will just bring it and we can talk. Did you talk to Paul about your heads?

-------------
1970 390 4speed Bittersweet shadow mask AMX
1970 Amx missing most everything, or in a box


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Mar/02/2011 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

You could mill the intake side of the heads if you are getting them done any way.
You need a special index mill to mill it as you cannot do a straight flat surface mill job due to the raised area for the valve cover lip.

-------------
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Mar/02/2011 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by GREM GREM wrote:

amx39068...I'm interested in those step dowels if you could PM me with contact information. Also how much needs to be milled off the later airgap for a good fit?
 
Thanks
Keith Coggins, aka amc67rogue here on the forum, is the guy who makes them and they are much better than the ones Mopar used to sell.

-------------
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/02/2011 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by amx39068 amx39068 wrote:

Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

You could mill the intake side of the heads if you are getting them done any way.
You need a special index mill to mill it as you cannot do a straight flat surface mill job due to the raised area for the valve cover lip.


-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/02/2011 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

Originally posted by amx39068 amx39068 wrote:

Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

You could mill the intake side of the heads if you are getting them done any way.
You need a special index mill to mill it as you cannot do a straight flat surface mill job due to the raised area for the valve cover lip.
No. Actually you just have to know how to run a standard mill with a fly cutter and be able to hold tolerance so you don't smash the cutter into the ridge.  Nothing special.  Easy job on any Bridgeport with a sine plate.  Did mine on a 24 foot bed surface grinder made in 1952.  Accurate to 1/100,000 of an inch.  When I am back in Detroit we do blocks on the thing too.  We index the pan rails to the main bores and then index off the pan rails todo the decks.  Thats how I angle milled my heads and kept the intake side stock.


-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/04/2011 at 9:46pm
Thanks for all the options.

69 ambassador 390...The machinist at the plant I work at knew exactly what you were saying & referred me to a shop who could do it. I would have pulled the trigger but decided to leave the r4b in good hands & go with a Performer intake. I found one complete with a 600 Edelbrock carb & linkage (70 & up non EGR). I dropped the heads off today & as soon as they are done I'll try to post some pics. After absorbing all this; in my case I think it wise to mount them to the engine first then have the used manifold milled to fit as needed...Great information...Thanks!

In the meantime can someone tell me how the QUOTE thing works?

Confused

   


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Mar/04/2011 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by GREM GREM wrote:

!

In the meantime can someone tell me how the QUOTE thing works?

Confused

   
 
Just click on the litle word Quote up on the right corner of the post you want to quote. 
 
If you only want to quote part of the post then just delete what you don't want in the quote with the backspace or delete keys on your keyboard like I did with your post.


-------------
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/13/2011 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by GREM GREM wrote:

In the meantime can someone tell me how the QUOTE thing works?
Confused

It only took me a few weeks but I think I got the quote thing figured out.

For my next question...I'd like to add a set of roller rockers to these heads. I've got my eye on a set of Scorpion's from Summit. It's my understanding they can be installed with the addition of adjustable studs. I spent a great deal of time today with a good friend of mine who tried his best to explain to me the rocker ratio relationship. He found a popsickle stick & a marble on the workbench & showed me what happens when you move the stick off center & raise or lower the short end. I think I understand that relationship better now. If the stud is raised the roller rolls forward on the valve stem & if it is lowered it rolls backward on the stem. The ratio affects how far the valve travels into the cylinder?

So my question is this...what pushrods do I use? 

Thanks in advance


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/13/2011 at 11:21pm
Mock an intake and exhaust rocker up with special light checking springs and adjustable push rod.  Summit has these cheap.  you will then know your length.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: mramc
Date Posted: Mar/14/2011 at 4:07pm
As I recall I used at one time or the other 351 Ford Windsor push rods and small block Chevy plus  0.125 of an inch , but you need to check your setup. There is a 1970 only push rod length which basically what your setting the engine up as a 1970 AMC V-8.
 You'll want to get some tall adjustable rocker arm studs . As I recall I used Big Block Chevy/Ford & Oldsmobile type when I did this.
If your using a 70 and up type manifold with the 291C heads , they should ball park match up with the heads the deck height was only raised 0.45 of an inch for the 70 and up blocks and that is with in range of feeler gauge fudge factor. I used this setup with out ever machining a manifold at all. But you do need to check it, depending on what you have for your setup. I did have to futz with mine , I will admit. LRDaum


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LRDaum


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Mar/14/2011 at 4:11pm
unless the base circle on the 71 and later cam was different than the 70 cam the pushrod length should be the same from 70 up until bridged heads. Even so and unless he is using a stock cam, stock rocker studs and stock rockers, the pushrod length needs to be specific to the combination of after market parts he will be using.

-------------
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/14/2011 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

Mock an intake and exhaust rocker up with special light checking springs and adjustable push rod.  Summit has these cheap.  you will then know your length.

I know someone that has an adjustable push rod but could you elaborate on the light checking springs?

Thanks


Posted By: jeremy0711
Date Posted: Mar/14/2011 at 10:30pm
about 20-25 bucks if you have to buy it new.


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/14/2011 at 11:35pm
You replace the heavy valve spring with the very light(maybe 10 pounds) checking spring so the lifter does not collapse and you get a good reading.  Summit and Northern sell them.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/20/2011 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

Mock an intake and exhaust rocker up with special light checking springs and adjustable push rod.  Summit has these cheap.  you will then know your length.

I think I have a grip on how this works & it makes sense but I have some questions. When you say mock up the rockers I'm assuming you are meaning bolting up the heads to the block & bolting them down with proper torque with the head gaskets in place? If so, how do I replace the spring without the valve's falling into the combustion chamber?

Thanks


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/21/2011 at 8:55am
Two ways to do it.  You should be checking the piston to valve clearences anyways so just mount the springs before the head goes on.  Put non-hardenning modeling clay in t thin pancake over the valve releifs on the piston head you are working with.  Now bolt the head on with a used head gasket of the same compressed thickness as the one you will be running.  Now run your checks with a checking lifter that is made out of a new lifter superglued on the inside so it can't compress.  Also turn the engine over twice to let the valves smash the clay.  After removing the head you would then cut the clay with a razor blade and read the thickness at the thinnest part.  This is your piston to valve clearence.  The reason for the used gasket is so you don't ruin a new one.  The other way to do it is with an overhead valve compressor and an air hold fitting in the spark plug hole.  You apply air to the cyilnder at TDC and remove the spring.  The reason for TDC and not BTC is that if the valve does drop it will stay where you can get it.  Make sure you are really at TDC or the motor will turn to BDC when you hit it with air.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Mar/21/2011 at 1:24pm
Could this be checked with out the gasket and add that to the reading of the clay? If not how far off would it be?That is what I did and figured if the valve clears with out a gasket that it will with one. I found springs that worked from the local hardware store, it was a time issue thing.
I know a little mickey mouse but the motor is still running LOL
Dave ----


-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/21/2011 at 5:51pm
Yeah, you could do the clay without the gasket and add the compressed thickness of the gasket but you would have to do the same with the pushrod also.  I would at least put some paper bag type paper between the head and block so you don't hurt the sealing surfaces.   If you are changing heads why don't you just use the used gasket that comes off?  If the heads are staying on then you can assume there is valve room and skip that though I do like to check.  If it is close and you get float you could eat a motor.  If you have already been ragging on the engine your probably O.K..  I personnally don't like probably when working with my money.  The hardware store spings should be just fine.  I use a couple of sailboat block standup springs myself.  Not designed for it but been using them for years.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Mar/21/2011 at 6:24pm
You can also use a cleaned up old head gasket for measurement if it didn'tget all bunged up when you pulled the head.  It will already be compressed and fully capable of protecting the surfaces. 

-------------
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/22/2011 at 4:24pm
The old head gaskets coming off are the square port ones. Will they work?


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/22/2011 at 4:42pm
They are the same.  Only the exhaust gaskets are different.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Mar/22/2011 at 6:26pm

I was throwing together a motor from parts I had trying to make a AMC event, 2 weeks and no money, and the gaskets that came off where mangled so could not use them. I did want to check valve/piston as I did not want to take the word of a Summit tech it would fit and find out he was wrong!

Because I did not add to the push rod with the headgasket on I must have more room between valve & piston Wink
Dave ----


-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Mar/22/2011 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by GREM GREM wrote:

The old head gaskets coming off are the square port ones. Will they work?
Those are exhaust manifold gaskets.  Head gaskets are the ones between the block and the head and are the same for 390s and 401s

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Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/22/2011 at 7:42pm
Oh! Man.  I forgot to tell him to remove the clay before he bolts the head back on.Wink

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Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Mar/22/2011 at 8:01pm
Don't worry, that chit will bun out of there eventually. No problem!


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/22/2011 at 8:54pm
But what if it turns to ceramic and glazes the cylinders?

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/23/2011 at 2:07am
Originally posted by SC397 SC397 wrote:

The 68-69 390 blocks have 7/16" head bolts. The "91C" heads have the through holes for 1/2" head bolts. To bolt the 91C heads to the '68-'69 390 block requires the step dowels. The step dowels help locate the gaskets but more importantly, they locate the heads. There are a few sources for the step dowels so, they are not hard to find.

All in good funCheers!...The step up dowels from Keith Coggins arrived yesterday & look to be very nice. Tapered & everything. So if I'm reading this right there should be no problem using my 1968 390 AMX square port head gaskets with the 7/16" bolts providing I don't put the step up dowels in first?




Posted By: amc67rogue
Date Posted: Mar/23/2011 at 11:31am
If you're old gaskets are aftermarket the dowel pin holes should have 4 little tabs in them. If you push the gaskets down on the larger dowel they'll bend out of the way.

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Keith Coggins 67Rogue X code


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Mar/23/2011 at 8:21pm
no such thing as early and later 390 head gaskets.  One size fits all unless you go custom to be exactly equal to your bore.

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Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 8:25pm
I stopped into the machine shop on Fri to see how things were progressing. Even tho the consensus is the stock seats would work fine I decided to go ahead & spend the extra money on hardened seats & SS valves. I don't have much confidence in the quality of fuel getting any better. The machinist ensured me that the new valves are identical in length to the one's in the square port heads so I won't be doing the clay test (great info tho!). He is installing the shallow seats. I've heard that because of the shift in some of the castings from the factory the deeper seats in the forward cylinder may have an issue. The valves were on backorder, but arrived on Wed so the heads should be done the end of next week. The roller rockers & adjustable studs, & gaskets have arrived.

The motor should be out of the car in about two or three weeks & on an engine stand for a few more; so I'll have the option of doing the mockup on the heads & the pushrod measurement out of the car. I have the 7/16" ARP head bolts as well... So if I'm reading this right I can remove the old heads & use the existing head gaskets (squished) for mockup. Before placing new heads on block I'll replace one of the valve springs with a weaker one (I don't have one yet but I'm working on it). Super glue a spare lifter so it won't compress. Bolt on new heads using the 70+ torque specs and adjust the roller rockers so they are centered.

Now for the questions...

- I'm assuming at this point the backlash on the adjustable pushrod should be 0?
- Once one valve is done is it safe to order all the pushrods this length or do I need to go thru this whole      procedure for each valve?  

Thanks once again



Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 9:56pm
One intake and one exhaust if running a split pattern cam or just one valve if running a single pattern cam.  I would not use the 70+ torque specs because those are for the bigger bolts.  Because you are using ARP bolts I would add 10 and leave it.  The clay test is not for the valve length it is because you are changing the cam and now a lot in the heads.  Nothing is stock so check it.  It takes two seconds to do because you already are doing the pushrod check.  If you are running hydraulic lifters you need pushrods that are .010 to .030 longer than the checking rod at zero lash or if running H.P. anti pump lifters and zero lash you would add nothing to the length you figure.  I like to have .100 or more piston to valve room at least so as long as it is that or more you are good.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/28/2011 at 1:17am
Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

One intake and one exhaust if running a split pattern cam or just one valve if running a single pattern cam.  I would not use the 70+ torque specs because those are for the bigger bolts.  Because you are using ARP bolts I would add 10 and leave it.  The clay test is not for the valve length it is because you are changing the cam and now a lot in the heads.  Nothing is stock so check it.  It takes two seconds to do because you already are doing the pushrod check.  If you are running hydraulic lifters you need pushrods that are .010 to .030 longer than the checking rod at zero lash or if running H.P. anti pump lifters and zero lash you would add nothing to the length you figure.  I like to have .100 or more piston to valve room at least so as long as it is that or more you are good.

Sorry I didn't clarify that I'm not changing the cam. Just the heads on the same 68 390 AMX motor with stock pistons so I can run a set of Headman dogleg headers. Mild RV cam (already in place with the square port heads) with the 51cc chambers & hydraulic lifters so I think you answered my questions. Ten over on the torque & .010 to .030 longer than 0 backlash on the pushrods... Thanks... 


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/28/2011 at 9:55am
If you are using the same cam you are good there.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Mar/28/2011 at 10:07am
why would you need longer pushrods with 291C heads?  They should have the same casting height as the earlier heads.  The 70 and up block is taller but to the best of my knoweldge the heads are the same stud height as the earlier heads.

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Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/28/2011 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by GREM GREM wrote:

Originally posted by GREM GREM wrote:

In the meantime can someone tell me how the QUOTE thing works?
Confused

It only took me a few weeks but I think I got the quote thing figured out.

For my next question...I'd like to add a set of roller rockers to these heads. I've got my eye on a set of Scorpion's from Summit. It's my understanding they can be installed with the addition of adjustable studs. I spent a great deal of time today with a good friend of mine who tried his best to explain to me the rocker ratio relationship. He found a popsickle stick & a marble on the workbench & showed me what happens when you move the stick off center & raise or lower the short end. I think I understand that relationship better now. If the stud is raised the roller rolls forward on the valve stem & if it is lowered it rolls backward on the stem. The ratio affects how far the valve travels into the cylinder?

So my question is this...what pushrods do I use? 

Thanks in advance
This is where the checking of pushrod length came from.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: Goodare 72 SST
Date Posted: Mar/28/2011 at 9:50pm
69 ambassador 390 Smile
 
You are correct, don't leave anything to chance check everything.


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1968 AMC Ambassador DPL - 1972 AMC Javelin SST - 1983 Honda Civic 1500DX CVCC - 28 Years Dealer Experience


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Mar/28/2011 at 10:01pm
ah yes.  With different rockers you will definitely need to check the pushrod length.

-------------
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: SKeown
Date Posted: Mar/28/2011 at 10:08pm
 
X2 Goodare, when reinverting an engine design, leave nothing to chance. Were often dealing with different cam base circle, lifter height, head & block surfacing, different rockers and valve stem height. There's too much at stake to take anything for granted. Details make the difference in you're outcome.
 
 SKeown


Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/29/2011 at 6:47pm
Thanks for the feedback everyone!Hug I'll heed the advice & check for clearance. I'll report back with the results in about three weeks when the motor is pulled & on an engine stand. 


Posted By: beepbop
Date Posted: Mar/30/2011 at 5:25pm
Shocked


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Mar/30/2011 at 5:30pm
ConfusedWhy are you pulling the engine just to change heads?

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Mar/30/2011 at 5:39pm
Sold the old car as a roller & using the drivetrain in another one Smile


Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Apr/11/2011 at 12:28am
I picked up the heads last Tuesday. After an email to the webmaster I was rewarded very quickly with picture posting privileges so here goes... This is what they look like ready for some AMC paint. Thumbs Up 
My machinist replaced the valve springs with new ones to match the cam in addition to the stainless steel valves, hardened seats, new seals, & new keepers...the price for a glob of clay is sounding pretty good right now; so thanks to all of you... I'll be checking clearances long before turning the ignition key for the first time! Approve



Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Apr/13/2011 at 2:51am
Managed to get a couple coats of paint on one of the heads tonight.
Hopefully can finish the other one soon..








Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Apr/23/2011 at 12:05am
Finished painting the other head a few days ago. My choice of headers is Hedman and a friend informed me that the header flanges will need to be ground a bit to clear the short head bolts. The cost for having the headers "Jet Hot" ceramic coated inside & out isn't cheap; so a mockup of some sort makes sense before sending them out for coating.

The donor engine block won't be available for a while, so I called a neighbor last night & asked him if he'd like to come over for some "bench racing" Cheers!






We first bolted up the heads to my workbench so the overhang allowed the short ARP bolts with chamfered washers to rest in position. The flanges wouldn't line up to the header bolt holes properly so we took them out & mocked up a few washers & a nut for measurement



Here's a pic of how much needs to be ground using the mocked up washers & the nut.
Hopefully by the end of the weekend I'll have some more pics with the ARP bolts in place & the headers mocked up in place...Smile



Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: Apr/23/2011 at 12:17pm
Just don't get them coated until after initial break-in is done or use a different set for break-in.  The typical 20-30 minutes of break-in running will cook the coating.  All the header manufacturers as well as the coating shops will void the warranty on the coating if the headers are used at break-in.  Just an FYI.  Looking good on the heads!


Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Apr/27/2011 at 2:09am
Originally posted by Traveller Traveller wrote:

Just don't get them coated until after initial break-in is done or use a different set for break-in.  The typical 20-30 minutes of break-in running will cook the coating.  All the header manufacturers as well as the coating shops will void the warranty on the coating if the headers are used at break-in.  Just an FYI.  Looking good on the heads!

That's why I ordered my headers thru Jet HotThumbs Up. Lifetime guarantee no questions asked as long as I own the car. A bit more expensive but well worth it because they'll stand behind initial break in. Jet Hot...800-432-3379. Talk to Dan.

I got the flanges ground down to fit the ARP bolts mocked up.






It's tight but better than it was...

We've strayed a bit from my original post so I'd like to revisit with a direct question about which adjustable rocker studs should I use with the Scorpion roller rockers & do I need to use guides?
It's my understanding that the longer small block Ford are the one's? I know they are the 3/8" studs but I'm not sure about the length needed. Thanks...









Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Apr/27/2011 at 8:57am
Originally posted by GREM GREM wrote:


We've strayed a bit from my original post so I'd like to revisit with a direct question about which adjustable rocker studs should I use with the Scorpion roller rockers & do I need to use guides?
It's my understanding that the longer small block Ford are the one's? I know they are the 3/8" studs but I'm not sure about the length needed. Thanks...

You only need pushrod guideplates on the wider and more oval shaped pushrod holes from the later heads unless there is excess wear on your exisiting heads guideholes which is extremely and not even remotely evident in your head pictures.  I just use SBC studs that are the stock 7/16ths in the head and 3/8ths on the shaft.  Your setup has nothing dramatic on it other than the Scorpians so even stock replacement studs SBC studs should do the trick.  Only caution is that I am not familiar with how tall the body of Scorpian rollers are so you want want to try one before you put all of them in.  The SBC studs fit under stock valve covers which is why I like them.


-------------
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: Apr/27/2011 at 9:11am
I've installed Scorpion rollers and they look virtually identical to the small Ford versions.  We just happened to be building a 306 at the same time I was putting together a 401 and had two sets of rockers to compare.  The're awfully close if not the same.
 
If you stick to stock pushrod diameter then your heads should guide your pushrods. 


Posted By: jeremy0711
Date Posted: Apr/27/2011 at 9:22am
I have ford motorsports 1.6 small block adj. rockers on my 401 with ARP chevy studs with 8.1 length Mallory hardened pushrods on 993 heads with stock valve covers. I also checked the pushrod length to make sure the rockers are centered on the valve tops which you should too as you have spent as much as I have on stock heads so you don't want to cause any excessive guide wear. It seems there were several lengths on the studs that you should be concerned with. Am I wrong here guys. Don't remember and I only had to buy one set so not enough repetition to make the stupid smarter.    


Posted By: Hotwheelsfan
Date Posted: Apr/27/2011 at 9:46am
Nice looking heads, I've always loved that color... One of the reasons I like AMC's.
 
Bob


Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: Apr/29/2011 at 1:48am
Thanks all! Very good info! 

I've been doing some research on the geometry involved in roller rocker setups & how important all the different components are when setting up a valve train. I went into this swap blind but I'm starting to see the light; & how all the moving parts have to be matched for the purpose intended...in my case a Gremlin weighing less than 3,000 lbs.

The donor motor is a 390 from a 1968 AMX rebuilt & balanced about 5,000 miles ago. The only thing I know about the cam is that it's a "Blue Racer Performance Cam" that Summit used to sell which I believe was manufactured by Crane. At idle with the stock square port heads it has a pretty good lope. It comes on strong around 1500 & flattens out just above 5000 with stock springs & stock hydraulic lifters. I plan to keep this cam & lifters. When I dropped off the heads to the machinist he needed to know what the lift on the cam was. As near as I could figure it was somewhere between .478 & .496... so that's what he used for base when replacing the springs. I'll be using an Edelbrock Performer intake & an Edelbrock Thunder series AVS 650 carb jetted for altitude.

I ordered two sets of ARP rocker studs today from Northern Auto Parts...just in case. One is the SBC part# 134-7101 & the other is the SBF part# 134-7104. The valve covers I plan on using are original Edelbrock Aluminum Finned ones. I don't know if they are taller than stock so maybe someone can set me straight.

The Scorpion box was calling out to me tonight so I couldn't resist. I had to see how they looked so I mocked them up with the stock AMC studs until the ARP ones arrive. The last pic shows the spring specs taken from the box of springs now on the 291c heads...









  






Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: May/04/2011 at 12:34am
I received the two sets of adjustable studs yesterday & had a chance to play with them enough to visualize how the whole roller rocker thing works. I think the SBF set will work best as they have the most adjustment; but I have a few more questions to ask first; since the heads aren't mounted to a block yet.

I'm trying to get my head wrapped around this & in my mind after mocking these up, it seems that initial adjustment should be set up with the roller more towards the exhaust side of the valve stem with the valve closed. As the pushrod opens the valve it seems to me that the roller will travel closer to the center of the stem & at midway valve opening, the roller should be positioned in the middle of the stem. As the valve opens all the way the roller should be positioned closer to the intake side of the valve stem; then everything reverses going back the other way? Am I close in my thinking?

Confused


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: May/04/2011 at 11:37am
Yes,  The pattern should be centered on the tip.  Two things to consider.  You can acheive this pattern with a lower fulcrum and a short push rod or a higher fulcrum and a longer push rod.  Valve length cannot be adjusted so the two things you are dealing with is fulcrum height on the stud and pushrod length.  What you are doing is moving around two of the three points on a triangle with the valve tip being the one that you cannot move.  You want to set up the rocker so a straight line drawn from the valve tip to the push rod cup results in the least angle of deflection between the lifter cup and the rocker cup(pushrod pushes with least angle).  You also want to make sure you maintain the rockers rated ratio in the length between the two bottom sides of the triangle.  This is why it is so important to have the correct rocker arms and not just the correct ratios.  The distance between the valve and the stud and the stud and the point where the pushrod intersects the rocker is different far all engines of different makes.  A Chevy rocker is not a Ford rocker is not an AMC rocker.  The fulcrum depth below the tip and the cup as well as the overall length of the rocker will be different for all also.  You could have a rocker that is 10" long across the top and one one side of the arm would be 6.25" and the other would be 3.75" and you would have the same 1.6 ratio.  If you are truly using AMC rockers then you will just need to set the pushrod length and be done with it. 

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: May/04/2011 at 12:45pm
Grem that is opposite of what comp cams says and is also wrong.
 I wrote this on the other amc forum and just copied it, so some might not apply.
 
Well to be short, there is not a perfect rocker for all groups, being that the rocker stud and valve are at different angles it creates a problem when a different lift is used or when a different length valve is used. Different lifts makes the point of pivot higher or lower on the stud which is in turn closer or further from the valve center. The best geometry is the rocker with the least amount of sweep for the lift and centered on the valve tip and the pushrod side with the least amount of sweep but since that is dreaming most of the time just getting the sweep minimised on the valve is best and where it ends up on the valve tip is of minimal concern as well as what happens on the pushrod. Wayyyyy too much effort is used to get the roller centered on the valve tip when most of the time that makes the geometry horrible. Also valve geometry has NOTHING to do with deck height or pushrod length, the geometry is on the head you just have to figure what pushrod to use for the geometry you need not the other way around.
 
My opinion, you may have different results Big smile


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Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: May/04/2011 at 1:00pm
Basically you want the roller to begin it's travel just barely to the intake side of the stem and to roll across the center and when at maximum lift for the roller to be in the same position on the stem where it started. While it goes through the full range of travel it should have a very tiny sweep pattern on the top of the valve stem.
 
To do this you can simply measure. The best resource for this is here:
 
http://www.mid-lift.com/TECH/TECH-Installed-G1.htm - http://www.mid-lift.com/TECH/TECH-Installed-G1.htm
 
And a old article that explains it right
http://www.mid-lift.com/PUB/SF-8107_To-Rock-or-Not-To-Rock.pdf - http://www.mid-lift.com/PUB/SF-8107_To-Rock-or-Not-To-Rock.pdf


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Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: May/06/2011 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

Basically you want the roller to begin it's travel just barely to the intake side of the stem and to roll across the center and when at maximum lift for the roller to be in the same position on the stem where it started. While it goes through the full range of travel it should have a very tiny sweep pattern on the top of the valve stem.
 
To do this you can simply measure. The best resource for this is here:
 
http://www.mid-lift.com/TECH/TECH-Installed-G1.htm - http://www.mid-lift.com/TECH/TECH-Installed-G1.htm
 
And a old article that explains it right
http://www.mid-lift.com/PUB/SF-8107_To-Rock-or-Not-To-Rock.pdf - http://www.mid-lift.com/PUB/SF-8107_To-Rock-or-Not-To-Rock.pdf

Great information!

I've got a much better understanding of the importance of stud height & pushrod length now when using roller rockers. No more bench racing for me... the next pics will be of the motor on an engine stand with one of the 291's torqued on over a used (squished) head gasket along with a layer of clay on a piston. A couple of superglued hydraulic lifters will be in place as well as a pair of 10lb weak valve checking springs on one cylinder for the purpose of checking everything!

With the adjustable pushrod I'm going to assume that the procedure stays the same as far as checking valve to piston clearance...that being with valve closed...0 backlash. Turn the crank by hand two or more revolutions. Once adequate clearance has been verified I then use the procedure above to re-adjust the adjustable pushrod for final length. Am I getting close?

Thanks,
Grem




Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: May/06/2011 at 10:51pm
YUP!!!!!

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: GREM
Date Posted: May/21/2011 at 3:20am
 so here goes...
Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

Grem that is opposite of what comp cams says and is also wrong.
 I wrote this on the other amc forum and just copied it, so some might not apply.
 
Well to be short, there is not a perfect rocker for all groups, being that the rocker stud and valve are at different angles it creates a problem when a different lift is used or when a different length valve is used. Different lifts makes the point of pivot higher or lower on the stud which is in turn closer or further from the valve center. The best geometry is the rocker with the least amount of sweep for the lift and centered on the valve tip and the pushrod side with the least amount of sweep but since that is dreaming most of the time just getting the sweep minimised on the valve is best and where it ends up on the valve tip is of minimal concern as well as what happens on the pushrod. Wayyyyy too much effort is used to get the roller centered on the valve tip when most of the time that makes the geometry horrible. Also valve geometry has NOTHING to do with deck height or pushrod length, the geometry is on the head you just have to figure what pushrod to use for the geometry you need not the other way around.
 
My opinion, you may have different results Big smile

I'm a rookie on a mission here...I'm going to keep asking questions till I get it right. I can't afford to make mistakes so I swiped a diagram from one of the fantastic links provided above; & added the letters A thru D to it, with some more questions having to do with "stack" measurement. I read both links multiple times before understanding the theory but need confirmation. Never was any good with engineering terminologyEmbarrassed...I can visualize pics better so here goes...Smile

A= HALF the diameter of the roller
B= valve stem height above top of spring retainer
C= difference between top of retainer & center of trunnion (BTY both are clearly marked on the Scorpions)
D= Angle & centerline of rocker stud

So if I'm seeing this right starting from lower to upper I would lay a straightedge up the yellow line represented by D & at the same time lay a straightedge flat across the top of the spring retainer. The resulting measurement gives us measurement C.
From the top of the retainer to the top of the valve stem measurement is B
From the top of the valve stem to the center of the roller measurement gives us A
A+B+C= stack
That right?


Posted By: 73hornut
Date Posted: May/21/2011 at 9:47am
I was considering scorpians, but after a google search, there were quite a few negative forum post for these developing cracks.

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79 Spirit AMX
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Posted By: AMXAL
Date Posted: Apr/03/2012 at 9:22pm
Great info everybody...but I need some help, am building a 74, 401 for my Javelin, had the engine freshened up and changed the pistons to give 10 to 1 compression, the heads were given a 3 angle and new Crower springs to match the cam, I just bought some Scorpion 1097 pedestal mount roller rockers, seems the pushrods are short, still using the stock ones 7.90 I believe, I did not mill the heads but had them cleaned up and flattened, builder said the stock rods were good but that was before I went to the Scorpions, what pushrod length will work? Anyhelp is appreciated



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