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Rod Knock on startup

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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27100
Printed Date: Mar/29/2024 at 12:41am
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Topic: Rod Knock on startup
Posted By: timoboy
Subject: Rod Knock on startup
Date Posted: Feb/26/2011 at 8:32pm
1975 360, 10w30 Valvoline, Napa Gold/WIX filter. Vehicle has rod knock on start up-about 3-4 knocks, then fine. Very good performing/smooth running engine except this issue. In never use fram filters, always napa gold.  Am I looking at a clogged screen or worn oil pump or possibly something else?

If I need an oil screen, I will need to drop the pan however the vehicle is a Matador Coupe so removing the hood is not an option. I was told I could drop the cross member, but how might I support the engine without removing the hood while the cross member is off?



Replies:
Posted By: A-Sedan
Date Posted: Feb/26/2011 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by timoboy timoboy wrote:

1975 360, 10w30 Valvoline, Napa Gold/WIX filter. Vehicle has rod knock on start up-about 3-4 knocks, then fine. Very good performing/smooth running engine except this issue. In never use fram filters, always napa gold.  Am I looking at a clogged screen or worn oil pump or possibly something else?

If I need an oil screen, I will need to drop the pan however the vehicle is a Matador Coupe so removing the hood is not an option. I was told I could drop the cross member, but how might I support the engine without removing the hood while the cross member is off?
Try an AC PF-24 I have had excellent luck with them. No luck with NAPA filters. Really before you get too far into thinking there is a big problem at least try the AC filter first. Fill the filter with oil and let it soak it up then fill it again, do this until the filter holds oil about an inch from the top then turn it sideways and spin it on, you won't lose much if any oil. See how that works for you.


Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Feb/26/2011 at 8:49pm
I doubt that the oil screen is plugged and there is no engine rebuild in a can that works to my knowledge. If you have a rod knock and, you KNOW that it is a rod knock you better pull it apart and inspect it before it is too late. As a reference for you, I smoked a brand new engine on start up with NAPA 10w30 oil and a NAPA Gold/WIX filter. (Took out the cam lobes hence, the bearings) I have since switched to a Delco PF24 and Rotella or Comp Cams oil. And, I always use some form of Zinc additive.


Posted By: Fluffy73
Date Posted: Feb/26/2011 at 8:49pm
My 360 in my Javelin does this too.  I attribute it to just being a high mileage engine.   Except I would never run anything as thin as 10w30.  I'm usually running 20w-50 in my Javelin, but it's also strictly a summer cruiser.

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I am genetically incapable of being Politically Correct.


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Feb/26/2011 at 9:13pm
You;re looking at a worn bearing/journal, not a clogged screen or wrong brand filter.


Posted By: timoboy
Date Posted: Feb/26/2011 at 9:14pm
I will look into an AC delco filter, and may do a new oil pump too as the front cover has to come off anyhow to fix a coolant leak.  I just don't see the engine being "finished" because of this though. I park on a reasonably inclined drive, and never more then 4 knocks usually only 2-3 then a motor that runs like new, burns no oil, idle's smoothly and pulls hard. Seems mainly like an oil delivery issue at start-up. 


Posted By: SC397
Date Posted: Feb/26/2011 at 9:16pm
"you;re looking at a worn bearing/journal, not a clogged screen or wrong brand filter."

That, is what I was trying to say but you got to the point faster.....


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Feb/26/2011 at 9:17pm
Denial.



Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Feb/26/2011 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by poormansMACHINE poormansMACHINE wrote:

Denial.

Yeah! I agree with that!  LOL


Posted By: Ohio AMX
Date Posted: Feb/26/2011 at 10:27pm
When I worked at NAPA their oil was made by Valvoline, which I don't like. I prefer Pennzoil. Try some Lucas oil stabilizer to help with the dry start-ups.

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1940 Hupmobile Skylark
1968 Javelin future Pro Street
1969 AMX 290/auto (first car)
1997 Dodge SS/T 5.9L
AMO# 983


Posted By: timoboy
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 1:11am
No I am not in Denial, just never really have that much experience with these type of issues before, and as such of course I am going to try less drastic measures first, then pull and tear into the engine later, seems pretty logical to me. That said I do really appreciate your posts and experience, now I have an idea for what I am up against. Keep in mind I am not like most of you guys who have owned 200 cars and torn into 2000 engines in your lifetimes, you gotta start somewhere and rather than jump into the tuner scene, I choose this route. I don't have a shop at my home, I don't have a machine shop that gives me decent or even semi fair prices, I don't know a ton of people in the industry. But did you guys right when you bought your first project car?  If people in my generation such as myself get scared away from the hobby then it will not be around any longer so I am not easily phased. Sure there are plenty of guys that grumble and dismiss me as some stupid kid, but there are also a heck of a lot of people who dismiss AMCs as 2nd rate junk and I would like to at least show that our cars deserve a 2nd look. Between the renewed intrest in AMCs as well as the passing of those that grew up with preconceived notions about the company, I see a really good chance of this happening.

I'll start saving up for new heads for my rebuilt 360 short block, kinda sad this well maintained stock engine is "done" after only 60k,  Anyhow anyone have a set ready to bolt on they would be willing to sell? The only shop in town wants $1200 to rebuild mine with zero performance modifications, reusing my valves and springs. Man I would kill to have a machine shop that charges reasonable rates. I have been reading that stock rebuild should be $400 a head tops.

Until then I am going to keep driving it about 10 miles per week. Ohio AMX I was thinking Lucas as well, and possibly marvel oil, thank you for the positive advice. Just talked to a pretty knowledgeable AMC club buddy of mine who has been doing this longer than I have been alive and he said his humpster had been doing this for years, he knows it is the bearings,  but only being a 360 which he has plenty of, he continues to drive as a Sunday cruiser, just as I do with mine.


Posted By: A-Sedan
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 5:32am
When I first got in to AMCs I had a 290 that would click the lifters and sometimes get a rod knock on startup. I was going to tear it down to fix the problem but remembering my V6 Buick days with the same  kind of start up problems, before they changed the oil filters to put a good drain back valve in them, I changed the oil filter and no more problems. You may very well have an issue with bearing clearances but first try the filter, it may suprise you or not, don't know till you try. This advice comes from more than 40 years of experience not to say I know it all but I learned from some of the best and they always said to try the simple things first. I doubt Lucas or Marvel will do much so try the filter before you spend your money on them. BTW I am not pushing AC filters for any reason other than they work.


Posted By: Ken_Parkman
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 6:42am
It's most likely the filter. Due to the filter direction it will drain if the drain valve in the filter is no good, and unfortunately most are no good. It does not seem to hurt much to have some rod knock on start, but it drives me absolutely insane listening to that horrible noise. I prefer to run the long filter, but I can't find one with a quality drain valve. The Napa long filter does not even have a valve. I've had one short Napa gold filter (the first one I tried) that actually had a functioning valve and all the cold start rod knock went away. Have not had a good one since. Have not tried the AC, but others seem to have had better experience.

The next plan is to change the threaded adapter to be able to fun a Ford style filter to try and find a long filter with a valve that works.

Another thing to note as most filters drain on sitting for a while the oil level reads higher than it really is. Start the car and run it for a few minutes before checking the oil level.


Posted By: gmonde
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 7:50am
Originally posted by Ken_Parkman Ken_Parkman wrote:

It's most likely the filter. Due to the filter direction it will drain if the drain valve in the filter is no good, and unfortunately most are no good. It does not seem to hurt much to have some rod knock on start, but it drives me absolutely insane listening to that horrible noise. I prefer to run the long filter, but I can't find one with a quality drain valve. The Napa long filter does not even have a valve. I've had one short Napa gold filter (the first one I tried) that actually had a functioning valve and all the cold start rod knock went away. Have not had a good one since. Have not tried the AC, but others seem to have had better experience.

The next plan is to change the threaded adapter to be able to fun a Ford style filter to try and find a long filter with a valve that works.

Another thing to note as most filters drain on sitting for a while the oil level reads higher than it really is. Start the car and run it for a few minutes before checking the oil level.
 
just to add to kens post ,the rod knock just didnt happen over night ,once the oil siphons back into the pan after sitting for a while there is no oil in half the pick up tube,oil galley in the block to the pump,oil filter,and up to the pump gears .now on start up the engine has to pull the oil back thru pick side ,this can take a second or two to do this and thats how long there is no oil presure  dry bearing s    gstock


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Gmonde

www.gmondeperformance.com

1970 rebel machine G/SA

11.23 @ 116.00

1970 amx 390 E/SA
10.82 @ 121.00


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 8:34am

Old engines make more noises than new ones particularly when letting them sit for extended periods of time before being started.  If you want to avoid a rod knock upon startup after sitting, pull the coil wire and cranke for 30 seconds to build some oil pressure and the reinstall the coil wire and fire it up.

I used to use STP on all my older engines and have even used slick 50 on and off since the 90s, both of which leave a longer lasting coating of lubricant on engine parts albeit with the former making the oil much thicker which is not good for really cold starts.
 
People love or hate additives but I have never lost a bearing in now a full 40 years of AMC performance engine ownership with nearly 2/3 of that time living in the northeast where the cars would sometimes sit for 30 days in a garage in the really crappy and frigid weather.  After sitting for a long time in the miserable cold weather, they make all kinds of unpleasants sounds when you first start them up. 


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Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: bigbad69
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 9:38am
Originally posted by Fluffy73 Fluffy73 wrote:

My 360 in my Javelin does this too.  I attribute it to just being a high mileage engine.   Except I would never run anything as thin as 10w30.  I'm usually running 20w-50 in my Javelin, but it's also strictly a summer cruiser.
IMO, running thicker oil is what is causing your knock. It takes longer for thicker oil to fully distribute throughout the engine, hence the knock on start up. Most engine wear occurs on start up because the oil hasn't had time to circulate yet. Using thicker oil can delay oil pressure build up causing the engine to run longer without proper protection. Think about it. If you load a syringe with water, it's easy to push it out. Now load it with peanut butter and try to push it out as fast as you did the water. In the March HMM, Ray Bohacz has an interesting commentary on the common "wisdom" of using heavy weight oils.

As has been previously stated in this thread, if your rods are knocking, it's only a matter of time before the engine fails. If this were a daily driver and you wanted to get one more year out of it before sending it the bone yard, then it makes sense to drive it like this. For a car that is essentially a toy that you drive infrequently and plan to keep, why put off the rebuild? Delaying will only cause more damage making the rebuild more expensive.

You can try changing the filter as suggested since it is a cheap experiment, but snake oil only masks the symptoms, it won't fix your engine.


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69 Javelin SST BBO 390 T10


Posted By: SEdmonds
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 9:50am
Originally posted by amx39068 amx39068 wrote:

After sitting for a long time in the miserable cold weather, they make all kinds of unpleasants sounds when you first start them up. 

I resemble that remark.....
Sorry - off topic - but this made me laugh this morning...as I watch it snow and blow outside - here in sunny, tropical Flagstaff.
 


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 9:52am
Originally posted by SEdmonds SEdmonds wrote:

Originally posted by amx39068 amx39068 wrote:

After sitting for a long time in the miserable cold weather, they make all kinds of unpleasants sounds when you first start them up. 

I resemble that remark.....
Sorry - off topic - but this made me laugh this morning...as I watch it snow and blow outside - here in sunny, tropical Flagstaff.
 
 
LOL -- I think that applies to a lot of us on the forum!


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: nda racer
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Ken_Parkman Ken_Parkman wrote:

It's most likely the filter. Due to the filter direction it will drain if the drain valve in the filter is no good, and unfortunately most are no good. It does not seem to hurt much to have some rod knock on start,

 
Exactly. If the noise goes away once the pressure goes up, it's nothing to worry about IMO.
 
Look around on these forums, there's guys rebuilding their engines and ending up with a big hunk of junk on their hands. So you can spend a few 1000 and take the gamble the job gets done right, it might not end up shreader fodder. make sure you get the "right guy" if you do decide to rebuild it. That may involve buttoning it down to a pallet and shipping it across the country.
 
 
I have a Chebby 350 sitting here, in 94 I pulled the pan when I replaced the wiped cam, had a very sloppy rod I could move up and down on the crank, didn't have a couple 1000 for a rebuild and only paid 65 bux for this mill running in 1990, so I pinned her back up and dropped her in. Daily driven every summer and 100s of street and track passes. With 10w30 you can hear it slapping, 20w50 and some STP super snot you can still hear it from under the car.
 
 
There it is making passes just the other year. This is the second chassis it's been in and over 200,000 miles now, had 138,000 when I bought it.
 
 
 
 
Years ago I knew a guy that would pick up low mileage engines and rebuild them for the sake of making them "fresh" most of them grenaded. So I'm not a big fan of fixing something that isn't broke.
 


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 12:30pm
How 'bout just pulling the pan and looking at the bearings.  Polish the crank with crocus cloth in place and then put in new bearings the same size.  You will need to flush the journals with a spray cleaner and then slide in the new bearings.  No big deal if the top end looks good.  Why are you doing the heads at 80,000 miles?  If it sat a year or two the heads may have corrosion on the open valves and seats but if not then there should be nothing wrong with them.

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Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: pnypwr
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 1:03pm
we had a grand cherokee with a 318 that rattled pretty good upon start up, had an oil pan leak so when I dropped thepan I ponied up the dough for a new pump...and voila knock went away that was 5 yrs ago and its still going strong...had 180k onit when I changed the pump.  I know its a different design just my 2c

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70 amx 360 survivor

74 gremlin 390
69 amx 390 project

68 sport satellite vert 440

03 mach 1 4.6 4v with a snail

65 mustang notch 347


Posted By: 74Bubblefender
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 1:13pm
Run thicker oil and see what is does

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We are just about to forge new AMC V8 crankshafts.. please check here
http://www.bulltear.com/forums/showthread.php?19564


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Ken_Parkman Ken_Parkman wrote:


The next plan is to change the threaded adapter to be able to fun a Ford style filter to try and find a long filter with a valve that works.


I swapped that out several years ago just to simplify filters on the shelf when the fleet was bigger.
91 and newer Jeep 4.0 adapter screws right in.


Posted By: timoboy
Date Posted: Jun/23/2011 at 3:37am
Alright, thanks for all the tips guys really helpful. Here is what I did.

10w40 Castrol high mileage (instead of 10W30 Valvoline)
resealed front cover, oil pump, etc and old one not in the best shape so swapped in a 1991 Wagoneer front cover with the different Chrysler style oil filter adapter from low mile car. Didn't change the gears as they were within spec when I measured as per my TSM
Bosch $7 filter (the smaller 1991 bypass one)

Knock is  G.O.N.E. Smile


Smile
Next step is to put an oil gauge and sending unit on and check the actual pressure. Now that the knock is gone, I have begun to question the pressure might be too high as seems to be much online about too much pressure at idle, etc being an issue for these AMC engines and how very carefully the oil pump must be setup.


Posted By: 69modjav
Date Posted: Jun/24/2011 at 12:31pm
I had this problem on my 360 and i knew it wasn't worn out. I got rid of the wix filter that i was running and put on a fram. No more lifter tick or knock at start up.

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69 BBO Mod Javelin 390 4 speed
77 Jeep J10 360 4 speed lifted



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