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Model 20 info

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: Transmission & Drivetrain
Forum Description: If it's between the engine and wheels, it goes here
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25833
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 7:05am
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Topic: Model 20 info
Posted By: Zathien666
Subject: Model 20 info
Date Posted: Jan/13/2011 at 9:41am
Hey guys I need help With some specs. I'm having to up grade the engine in my 74 Amx because the 360 just isn't going to be capable of the hp I'm looking for. I believe I have a model 20 rear end does anyone know how much hp and torque it is capable of handling? Thanks

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.



Replies:
Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jan/13/2011 at 11:11am
Enough to handle a 360.


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/13/2011 at 11:22am
Originally posted by purple72Gremlin purple72Gremlin wrote:

Enough to handle a 360.


No I'm replacing the engine with a stronger more powerful engine question is how strong is the rear end in stock form and what can it hold up to fully built. Engine is going to make around 700 hp under boost. I'll post specs of the engine in a different thread to prevent any arguments.

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jan/13/2011 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Zathien666 Zathien666 wrote:

Originally posted by purple72Gremlin purple72Gremlin wrote:

Enough to handle a 360.


No I'm replacing the engine with a stronger more powerful engine question is how strong is the rear end in stock form and what can it hold up to fully built. Engine is going to make around 700 hp under boost. I'll post specs of the engine in a different thread to prevent any arguments.
Good luck on preventing arguments.  put one piece axles in it and it will handle alot of power.  if you are going to drive it on the street, well, Id say stupidity will break it, because you can break any axle under the right conditions.


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 7:44am
Well since no one knows what the Specs are i might as well just switch to a complete ford drivetrane since it's going to have a ford engine. It's sad that AMC really didn't produce anything that is capable of high hp or duabillity anyways..

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: 72AMX
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 7:53am
Yeah it's sad that you have to come on to am AMC board to moan about AMC parts while bragging on Ford parts that you are going to put into your car.  If AMC parts suck so bad why did you buy the AMC car that you own, why not just buy some POS Ford and save yourself the trouble?  I'm sure some AMC idiot will buy your AMC so you can use the money to get yourself a FERD. 


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 8:29am
Hey im just being honest I am unbiased as far as cars go. I love amc body designs. But the fact is that amc did not have the greatest engineers. They made "decent" family cars but that's all. There's no shame in that. That being said taking any stock amc engine and trying to get 400-450+hp to the wheels out of it would cost over 15k. I would like to keep the stock rear end but if it's going blow apart the second it gets over 500 pounds of torque there's no point. Please don't get butt hurt. I was asking a simple question about an axle. That's all i wanted to know

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 8:48am
Originally posted by Zathien666 Zathien666 wrote:

Hey im just being honest I am unbiased as far as cars go. I love amc body designs. But the fact is that amc did not have the greatest engineers. They made "decent" family cars but that's all. There's no shame in that. That being said taking any stock amc engine and trying to get 400-450+hp to the wheels out of it would cost over 15k. I would like to keep the stock rear end but if it's going blow apart the second it gets over 500 pounds of torque there's no point. Please don't get butt hurt. I was asking a simple question about an axle. That's all i wanted to know
I was being truthful.  but its alot more work to put a Ford drive train in your car.  nothing is free.  you would be better off to get a mustang. AMC engines can put out a great deal of power, more so than a SBF.............Dont get me wrong either, I like Fords too,  but I dont like somebody elses engine in a given chassis.  reread what I said in this post. and actually, AMC had some of the best engineers in the industry, alot of them are now working at chrysler doing engineering for Jeeps, and remember the "cabin forward" in the big chrysler FWD cars?  AMC engineers did that.........If you dont like AMC drivetrains, well, then Id say you dont know what you are talking about.  you have to remember its 40 year technology,  you cant compare it to todays technology.


Posted By: amc67rogue
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 8:54am
The AMC 20 with one piece axles is just as strong as a 12 bolt gm .

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Keith Coggins 67Rogue X code


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 9:33am
Your correct I just wanted to know if anyone has used it in a mild drag race application. Personaly I dont care if it's a ford / gm/ Japanese / or European product. I like speed, regardless of who can give it to me. But I know for a fact that no amc engine can produce more power than a sbf or chevy. People on this forum are dungting bricks when they see an engine make more than 400 to the flywheel. I love amc body styles but there engines are dogs. I would love to have a 700 hp amc 401 but it would cost over 30k to build and you would have to start with a $8k aluminum block. It's just impractical. I completely agree with the fact that it would be great to keep it ALL amc but I could buy a new vehicle for that price. If their engines were so fantastic amc wouldn't have had to sell out. None of their drag cars had the original engines and for good reason. I'm not knocking the car i love my javelin but I'm not breaking my bank just to be able to have a semi competitive car. I'm not arguing with anyone and please don't think I'm trying to I'm just trying to save as much money as i can. Some may feel that I'm killing a car some may not care either way I'm just out for a hard running javelin. If I wanted a mustang body I'd have bought one I want something different.

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 9:38am
Your high on drugs boy

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: uh60
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 10:11am
FUBAR!

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Mike Griffis

68 AMX 390 4sp

66 Ambo Convt. 327, 4 speed


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 10:15am
Dude thats a tunnel ram intake It doent make a car 1000 hp that's like saying a fart can on a honda adds 15 hp. If the amc engine was easily capable of high hp they would have been used in NHRA but it was they transplanted gm engines in. And a 360 cannot handle a tunnel ram that's a fact a 401 is the only engine they had that could but not as a stock engine anyway it would need heavy modifications anyway. And the nhra wouldn't let most of the s/sAMX's run because of the fiberglass design. Eventho Hurst estimated a 420 hp engine. Most were sold and chopped up to be replaced with chrystler and gm engines. Amc had 1 good year of racing.

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 10:18am
You dont know what your talking about so just go away

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: 72AMX
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 10:20am
Take a look at the recent Car Craft article and you will see that AMC's are one of  the most affordable builds for the buck on the list, you can get a lot out of the 401 using the stock crank and heads.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0706_v8_engine_performance_parts/mopar.html - http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0706_v8_engine_performance_parts/mopar.html

If blowers were widely available and affordable for AMC's I'm sure there would be some killer engines out there. 


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 10:26am
Whatever you say :D I'm reading the articles from 1969.

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: Mean71
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 10:51am
Yea, keep reading the old articles where there was little to no performance parts available for AMC and plenty of hate for the brand to go around. Also, you must be ignoring the fact that AMC won the Trans Am series back to back in '71 & '72, beating out competition such as Dodge, Pontiac, Ford and Chevy. You must have also missed the thread showing how somebody from these forums made a 360 stroker (383) and made over 400 hp. I believe that was done for much less than 30k....wasn't it like 5k? I don't have an issue with you or anythhing, but you really need to do more research, man.


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 11:21am
Even 450 hp at the flywheel is nothing. I'm not saying that 450hp is impossible I'm saying that I want more than that. I'm looking for 700+ at the flywheel. Remembe you lose a good amount of hp through the trans and rear end and gear reduction cnt take up for all that. As far as parts availability goes there is still NOTHING available in comparison to ford or gm. That forces price up due to supply and demand. The fact is I can buy a 4cyl with 370hp at the wheels from-the factory and after drivetrain loss that's all I'd be getting with a 450hp engine I want a reliable 600+ at the wheels. The fact is nothing internal on the 360 is strong enough to handle that kind of power crankshaft would have to be a custom forged piece and would cost as much as everything else combined.   Referring to the transam series that's not. Stock engine hey were created by amc for the series that's like saying gm is the best car right now because a chevy won NASCAR this year.

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 11:28am
Well your not going to do it with a small ford with out replacing everything in it with aftermarket, including their weak blocks. Or an LS for that matter

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: uh60
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 11:29am
Get a hold of Barry Allen and he will build you that 700HP you desire.

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Mike Griffis

68 AMX 390 4sp

66 Ambo Convt. 327, 4 speed


Posted By: Mean71
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 11:39am
Yea, I think if you're planning to build up anything to 700 hp you're gonna have to start changing out internal parts no matter what engine it is. I mean, I guess you can go ahead and try, but there's no saying how long it will last. There's a thread here somewhere that shows the head flow difference between AMC and other car companies at the time, and AMC truly had a superior design compared to a lot of the other guys. AMC was the underdog, that's for sure, but they still held their own, and even more so today. You just have to know where to look when it comes to building a performance AMC.   


Posted By: 72AMX
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 12:11pm
Dude you're just a pot stirrer, crawl back into the hole you came out of and leave the AMCs to those of us who appreciate them.


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by 72AMX 72AMX wrote:

Dude you're just a pot stirrer, crawl back into the hole you came out of and leave the AMCs to those of us who appreciate them.


Hey I was originally asking for legitimate advise you guys are the ones who want to argue I have only stated facts.

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 12:31pm
Those are not facts, they are your uninformed opinions.

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 12:49pm
Nope all articles I have read and prices from websites I have not fabricated anything. To believe that amc is actually capable of competing against the big 3 in engineering is narrow minded. They weren't the best of their time they aren't the best now and they won't be anything special in the future. They are kool to own and fun to drive but that's about it.

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 12:52pm
Please don't tell the 390 in my car that it doesn't make 468hp with bolt ons and cast pistons.  It has self esteem issues and it thinks the dyno was telling the truth.  By the way I used to pay the Hemi guys to let off just so my car didn't feel bad.  And I told my AMC 20 that it has one peice axles when in reality it doesn't.  My car is sensitive like that.  It was so proud when they put AMC 20s in those crappy weak Hummers with the monster turbo diesels.  I would hate to make the old girl feel bad.  By the way.  Thank you to all those Chevy, Ford and Chrysler guys that have been allowing me to beat their butts for twenty years with my $1500.00 engine cause they know it takes too much money to make an AMC run good.  You guys are the greatest.
 
From a poor AMC driver
I feel better now


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Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 1:03pm
465 to the wheels?

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 1:11pm
And if you want to compare big blocs let's compare the ford 390 to the amc 390. I mean if you being honest let's see a couple pics of the engine and the dyno shots.

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 1:18pm
No,  Flywheel.  373 to the wheels.  12.91 at 2000 feet and 3900lbs withstreet tires.  Stock iron heads with a mild cam and cast iron manifolds with 2 1/2" pipes at the axle. Poormans Machine is running a similar combo with nearly Identical results.  AMCs running in the 9s are common with off the shelf parts.  Stock untouched AMC heads flow much better that big Three small block heads so you don't have to start by buying heads first.  There are no stock small block heads that are better especially fords with the up turned exits.  A mild port and bowl job on AMC heads for a few hundred will equal 99% of the aftermarket big three heads at 1/3 the price. AMC had the best engineers in the buisness back then and that is why their engins got the mileage they did. Efficiency was what the company went for and quality also.  The blocks were stronger than anyone elses without needing factory fixes likr four bolt mains or cross bolting although you could get those over the counter.  And nearly all of those SS/AMXs are still around.  All of our blocks are high nickel content not just a few special use blocks like the other guys.  With proper prep the stock block 390/401 will handle 700HP no problem but you would have to spend that time and money on any block from anybody.   Reality bites don't it? 

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Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: steeters
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 1:18pm
Please come back and post the completed project when you are done.  I'd love to see it.

But really?  You are going to build and drive a 700hp car and do a full engine and transmission swap, and you need to come here and ask about model 20 strength...sounds like you've got a looooooooooooooong way to go.

Steve


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by Zathien666 Zathien666 wrote:

And if you want to compare big blocs let's compare the ford 390 to the amc 390. I mean if you being honest let's see a couple pics of the engine and the dyno shots.
 
Have you ever actually set eyes on an AMC engine?  Since when did the AMC become a big block?  It is the same rough size as a small block Chevy and lighter. AMC DID NOT MAKE A BIG BLOCK EVER!!!!
In the words of the great proffit Foghorn Leghorne."Go away boy; you bother me"


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Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 1:34pm
Hahaha you guys are a trip. I was asking about the rear end because I haven't had a lot of experience with the amc rears. And yes the amc engines are high in nickel but then again so were most engines in the 70s but the internals are weak. The crank can't handle 700hp safely and there aren't any aftermarket cranks for the 360 u have to custom forge one or cut a gm crank to fit and that in itself completely defeats the purpose of keeping the original 360 to begin with. All your doing is putting a mask on an ugly kid. The heads were strong yes but not better that 99% of the competition with a mild port. Your a little off there. The fact is if your happy with what u got bring it to the track in a couple months and I'll show you real power. The engines were adequate for what they were and I'm not arguing that. Fact is there's a reason the "big 3" ARE THE BIG 3 and it's not beCause AMC had a better engine than they did.

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 1:35pm
This is getting ridiculous! I think you guys are arguing with a high school kid. ICEs all pretty much fall under the same constraints no matter who made them. Factory parts are limited in strength because all they are designed to do is get mom and pop around reliably, with a little extra strength for reliability. Performance is and always has been a side show. Build big power and nearly everything must be changed, doesn't matter about make. Some specific items are weaker than others, just depends on where the engineers decided to compromise. The small block Ford isn't strong enough for a lot of power, 500 hp is about the limit for a factory stock block. An AMC 360 is a good bit stronger. Pick parts to build what power you want, and sometimes that will mean an aftermarket block. Anyone who knows much about engines in general knows this. The guy you've been arguing with apparently doesn't.

The Gen-2 and Gen-3 AMC V-8s are basically small blocks. As such they are some of the stronger small blocks around. They are sometimes referred to as "mid blocks". They share all but one general characteristic with GM/Ford/Chrysler small blocks. That one exception is the bore centers. AMC used a bigger bore center, by coincidence the same as Chrysler big blocks (that's why Chrylser BB aluminum heads used to be drilled to fit AMCs by drag racers before a real AMC aluminum head was available). The only reason they used that bore center is because the Gen-1 AMC/Rambler V-8 used them. By keeping the bore centers the boring tooling could be kept as well, saving a good bit of tooling money. The old Gen-1 more closely resembles an FE Ford or BB Chevy, but was only 250/287/327 inches.

The big three are the big three because they were bigger and had more money to work with. It wasn't always that way. There was a lot of consolidating after World War II, and other things happened about the same time (rationing materials, etc.) to really shake out the auto industry. AMC was the only small company to survive because they had well engineered products. The heads of AMC made a lot of bad business decisions starting in the mid 60s. THAT is what drove AMC down, nothing to do with engineering. In the early 60s AMC was competing successfully and had a surplus of cash. It took the next guy in line after Romney about three years to spend all the surplus and alienate AMC's bread and butter customers. THAT did more harm than anything -- AMC never really recovered from that. A few mistakes later and they were on the skids. The Pacer turned out to be a mistake, but only in hindsight. At first it sold well, faster than AMC could make them, then the first oil crunch hit and killed sales. The Pacer got no better mileage than other mid-sized cars, but was a bit less roomy. Plenty safety features though, which added lots of weight, and killed gas mileage and power. So people went to smaller, more economical cars and left the Pacer on the showroom floor. The Matador Coupe was another mistake. Shared only drivetrain and some minor components with other cars. Did make a better NASCAR racer, but didn't bring droves to the showroom. It was costly to produce. In the early 60s AMC had a nicely integrated product line that shared as many components as possible. Lee Iaccoca followed the same route to revive Chrysler with the K-car and derivatives. It's economical and works. AMC forgot that and tried to make a wider variety of cars than it could really afford, but you don't know until you try. Hindsight is 20/20, in business you have to look to the future -- and sometimes you just don't get it. AMC just wasn't big enough to absorb the big blunders that GM and Ford made -- Edsel, Vega aluminum engine, X-cars, etc. -- many more than AMC ever made, and bigger ones, but able to financially absorb the losses and keep going... at least until now. Now they are having problems...


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 1:45pm
Not really arguing with him.  Just educating and entertainning.  I like the way he came back with the juvinile lets race comment.  If the car he speaks of was ever built he wouldn't be allowed to drive it without a license anyways.  It's a slow day at work, let me have some fun.LOLLOL

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Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 2:10pm
Your similac is getting cold

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

Your similac is getting cold
 
Thanks.  I forgot where I put it.Confused


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Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: 72AMX
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 2:35pm
Hi, can anyone tell me if a stock 1970 Ford 9" rear can handle 1000 horsepower?  I am thinking about putting a F-16 GE F-110 engine in my Pinto and was wondering if I can break the sound barrier in it?


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

Your similac is getting cold
 
Thanks.  I forgot where I put it.Confused
Not you, I know you drink geritolLOL

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: jmd868s
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 3:06pm

That depends, what year is the Pinto



Posted By: steeters
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 3:10pm
On another, less family friendly, forum I use - they have an emoticon where a hand is stroking something.  I think that pretty much sums up this entire thread. **
So pretend I inserted that emoticon here and we can wrap this thread up until we see timeslips.

Steve

** Don't forget to read the sister thread in the engine section.  Budget:  $3,000.00  Seven hundred horsepower here we come!


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 3:29pm
I can get that for cheap.  Full nitro with a 350 shot.  Should last till 60ft or so.  Would make some cool pictures.  Lets use a chevy though.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: ROGUE66
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 5:17pm
Pictures or this tread is useless.


Posted By: Mean71
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 6:03pm
"...but the internals are weak. The crank can't handle 700hp safely..."

I LOL'd at that one.  A stock crank not being able to handle 700 hp safely = not safe I guess.  This guy really reminds me of my stupid friends who thinks he knows a lot about AMC...but at least my friend has some respect.


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 6:09pm
Rodney Dangerfeild never got any respect but he still died a rich man.Wink

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 6:18pm
So is anyone going to post any official dyno numbers of an amc with 360 getting 450+ hp to the wheels?

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: Gremlinamc1975
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 6:26pm
AMC design of course Mopar did some work, always wanted to watch this motor work.

pt1
http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/engine/154_0911_jeep_insane_inline_ii/index.html - http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/engine/154_0911_jeep_insane_inline_ii/index.html
pt2
http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/engine/154_1001_insane_inline_ii_part_2/index.html - http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/engine/154_1001_insane_inline_ii_part_2/index.html

but i thought most of the ford block where known for splitting in 2 around 600hp, altho this is factory blocks, and the AMC blocks had a higher nickel content the most blocks that i know of plus they already came with forged parts(390 and 401).. come on. i think its gonna cost just as much cash to put a ford, Chevy, dodge, block in there then it would be an AMC, plus you'll get trash talk from both sides if you cross breed your horses.

But its your car do what you like, just cause someone doesn't support it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.


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1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,


Posted By: Gremlinamc1975
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by Zathien666 Zathien666 wrote:

So is anyone going to post any official dyno numbers of an amc with 360 getting 450+ hp to the wheels?


Nope just are 6 cylinders sorry not are v8's yet, imagine if we had used 2 more cylinders LOL


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1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 7:12pm
So?????? What are you trying to say? An inline 6 is a completely different and stronger design that's why the diesel industry uses them. Don't know why you wasted your time........so...... Yah...... Still no 360.... No dyno..... No 450hp to the wheels. There is alot of talk tho I'll give you guys that no doubt. Oh and all engines back then had high nickel content up until about 72. There was nickel in engine blocks even in 84. Aaaaaaaannnnnd as far as a sbf splitting your right 302's don't get much higher than 550-600hp. But that's a v8. As for a 351w they go much higher in hp than 600 hp and that's to the wheels.

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: DavyKrawkt
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 7:19pm
I am new to all this AMC information and just recently picked up a 73 AMX Javelin with a 401......
I usually work with Dodges and Fords.......
This has been quite a heated thread. I have done some research on AMC motors,etc.... and have found some
interesting facts........it seems the AMC dogleg head design is one of the most efficient and power producing ever made...
They developed free flowing cast iron exhaust manifolds...and high performance cast iron intakes...they also had cowl induction on their early performance cars as well as AMXs and Javelins.....and had a Group 19 list for the performance minded...granted the 20 has shortcomings.....but it can be upgraded......
If Chevy is the bomb...why did Javelin kick their rump 2 yrs running in the Trans Am racing along with the other big
companies??  and why do Chevy and Ford need to make 4 bolt mains to hold their engines together..when AMCs
have a 2 bolt main that holds up great..even at very high hp output.....I'm sure some things I put down may not be 100 percent accurate....since i'm new to AMC, so i will probably get my hands slapped.....
But i have fallen in love with the AMCs........so there!!!!!!
In response to the guy building the Pinto....find an old Ford Edsel......they came with a 9in Nodular Iron rear end...
You'll know it...because it will have a N welded on the side of the 3rd member......
I put one in my 67 Barracuda with a built 383 Commando engine that dyno at over 550hp and it was a bolt in swap..and could not even come close to breaking it.
After i finish my 73 Javelin..i will get back to work on my 77 Pinto Panel....it will have a 351 Windsor Stroker.. a built AOD tranny and a 8.8 Explorer rear end..most came with a 3.73 posi..disc brakes and complete sway bar setup..



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1973 AMX Javelin
Pierre Cardin Edition
What goes around.....comes around.......


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

Those are not facts, they are your uninformed opinions.
x2.


Posted By: Gremlinamc1975
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 7:30pm
who said i was talking about v8's, you mention way in the start of this thred that
Originally posted by Zathien666 Zathien666 wrote:

But the fact is that amc did not have the greatest engineers.

then nether did ford if the block splits. everyone made a bad egg.

and the reason i wasted my time if for the love of the AMC, and i still think im right, your gonna be spending more money to fit those engines in that car, assuming you dont already have them.

but its your car do what you wish to it, if you get it finnished post some photos, but if your gonna try and bash AMC take it to another fourm, maybe with the motor your gonna use, you might get a little more support. just my 2 cents



-------------

1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by Zathien666 Zathien666 wrote:

So?????? What are you trying to say? An inline 6 is a completely different and stronger design that's why the diesel industry uses them. Don't know why you wasted your time........so...... Yah...... Still no 360.... No dyno..... No 450hp to the wheels. There is alot of talk tho I'll give you guys that no doubt. Oh and all engines back then had high nickel content up until about 72. There was nickel in engine blocks even in 84. Aaaaaaaannnnnd as far as a sbf splitting your right 302's don't get much higher than 550-600hp. But that's a v8. As for a 351w they go much higher in hp than 600 hp and that's to the wheels.
 
Show me one stock block/crank/head 351 windsor combo that makes 600 to the wheels naturally aspirated, Please.


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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

Originally posted by Zathien666 Zathien666 wrote:

So?????? What are you trying to say? An inline 6 is a completely different and stronger design that's why the diesel industry uses them. Don't know why you wasted your time........so...... Yah...... Still no 360.... No dyno..... No 450hp to the wheels. There is alot of talk tho I'll give you guys that no doubt. Oh and all engines back then had high nickel content up until about 72. There was nickel in engine blocks even in 84. Aaaaaaaannnnnd as far as a sbf splitting your right 302's don't get much higher than 550-600hp. But that's a v8. As for a 351w they go much higher in hp than 600 hp and that's to the wheels.
 
Show me one stock block/crank/head 351 windsor combo that makes 600 to the wheels naturally aspirated, Please.
And dont forget the dyno slips too..........Id like to see that too........Sleepy    I do know for a fact that Barry Allen can build a 450 HP 360...............Ive seem some of his engines run on the track,  Randy and Robert McCorkle was turning 9's with a 401 in a 72 AMX...............


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 7:43pm
Tell you what I will just print you out a dyno sheet so you can go race your friends, thats what you kids do anyhow, a supra with 1500 RWHP that runs 12s. LOL

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Zathien666
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 7:46pm
I never said I hated amc I love amc I just don't think they were the best. they had alot of potential that never came full circle in my opinion. The amc engines just don't provide the power I need. I understand I upset people but we all have our own opinions.

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Dear Mr and Mrs Honda no this is not a Mach 1 and yes I will embarrass you on the strip.


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 7:54pm
The problem is your arguing something that is not true, the amc engine is by far better than a windsor ford, and is capable of 700 hp naturally asperated with stock crank block and heads,  they were ahead of their time as far as engineering on the heads. You discounting them from reading a rag here and there is what is starting issues. What makes a windsor capable is aftermarket parts, but alas there are those avaiable to amc too, you know how windor engines are trick f teh week if they have a higher deck height aftermarket block? The amc is already there and yhe components are very strong unlike the ford or small chevy. Just dont spew bull when the truth is just questions away.

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 9:01pm
Also you have to remember that even though the AMC engine has been out of production for nearly two decades, it is still the newest design out there as far as when it came to be.  The small chevy was a product of the early fifties and both the Ford and the Chrysler first apeared in the very early sisties and were also in the works in the late fifties.  The AMC we are talking about came to be in 1967.  It incorperated all the latest casting technologies and modern design.  In 1991 when production on passenger engines ceased it was still the most modern american V8 out there.  We never got newer designs from Detroit till they stopped making the small block Chevy.  I know you will cite the dodge magnum engines, but those were actually redesigned with the help of AMC engineers and technology aquired when Chrysler got AMC and the Magnum was based on the old AMC design.  As far as all 60s era blocks having a high nickel content you are wrong.  That is why the Chevy guys look for "020" on the side of the blocks to build HP engines. The number denotes the nickel content and most blocks were "010" or less.  AMC had much more.  Many machinists charge extra for AMC block work because of the wear and tear they put on tooling.  I love all old cars and even own a couple of fords and a big block Chevy powered motorhome.  When the Motorhome engine goes south it will get a 401 AMC because I can make better power cheaper and end up with a stronger engine too.  There is simply no other engine that will respond so well to easy/cheap mods than an AMC.  Except maybe a 385 series ford but they weigh twice as much and have weak bottom ends.

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: uh60
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 9:40pm
Definition: Zathien is a avid fan fiction reader and a active participant in the world of fandom. and the triple 6's is the work of the devil.
 
I think this thread needs shucked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


-------------
Mike Griffis

68 AMX 390 4sp

66 Ambo Convt. 327, 4 speed


Posted By: Wrambler
Date Posted: Jan/14/2011 at 10:28pm
I find this thread inspiring.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du0wJzA9JfM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du0wJzA9JfM

-------------
Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler
4.0L, 5 speed
2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
2019 Chrysler 300


Posted By: cj-hellion
Date Posted: Jan/15/2011 at 12:40am


file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cuser%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cuser%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - Just to add my 2 cents in, I’m sure the amc 20 will handle the hp.

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cuser%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml">I had a model 20 with 1 piece axles and a locker behind my 1st cj5 that had a modified 360 in it and I did some unspeakable things to it offroading . Once I broke a spring mount after I was airborne going over a hill and never worried about my axles, but I did twist two driveshaft’s into scrap too. After a while I did modified the axles housing by adding a truss and putting a nice weld around where the tubes meet the pumpkin. I didn’t need to do it but for what I was getting into I thought it wouldn’t hurt. One more thing to consider is the area that has the most stress is where the ring and pinion are, to transfer power from y axes and translated to x axes the housing needs to be strong and I never seen a model 20 come apart there. Just my two cents.   Big smile



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Hold on boys I’m going to stand on it



Posted By: Aljav
Date Posted: Jan/15/2011 at 4:37pm
Forgotten:AMC WALLY BOOTH  " Quote" from Wally Booth summer of 2010. "I made over 800 Hundred horse power with my Motor" ( approx 366 cubic inches) Wally was consistently in the top ten of NHRA Pro Stock  thru out the 70's. While wally did a lot of work on Cylinder heads, AMC Cylinder heads are very powerful head.
http://theamcforum.com/forum/lets-go-nostalgia-pro-stock-racing_topic20972_page3.html

If our AMC are unable to make power, why this? ( Stock crankshaft)

http://theamcforum.com/forum/lets-go-nostalgia-pro-stock-racing_topic20972_page4.html

U need to come out to the AMC Nationals and see those slow AMC's. you are totally misinformed.

ALL SS/AMX ARE AMC POWERED!!!!!! the only Super stock cars that are faster are Hemi Powered Superstock.

U need to be way more informed!!!!

Allan




-------------
69 AMX 9.86 132 mph 71 JAV/AMX and 69 Javelin, .. NAMDRA member #1106


Posted By: steeters
Date Posted: Jan/15/2011 at 5:04pm
I will give the original poster one thing, there are frequently high HP ford/chev/mopar engines for sale for cheap that make big horsepwer.  they would temp anyone.
but if you want to build 700hp from scratch, and i believe stickshifter has mentioned this before in a different thread, it all starts getting into custom pieces and machine work and the cost evens out.
 
but back to the smartest post in this thread...the entire thing is useless without pictures.  I will start holding my breath now.
 
Steve


Posted By: 390spirit
Date Posted: Jan/15/2011 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by Zathien666 Zathien666 wrote:

there aren't any aftermarket cranks for the 360 u have to custom forge one or cut a gm crank to fit
 
i'd like to see that happen!!!!!LOL
 
 
vvvvvvv oh ya don't look here vvvvvvv Ouch


Posted By: toolmanxiii
Date Posted: Jan/15/2011 at 8:20pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPKaBAGFKiE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPKaBAGFKiE

enough said I would think 

-------------
71 360 Hornet sst 83 2wd 360/727 Eagle wagon (crashed)


Posted By: toolmanxiii
Date Posted: Jan/15/2011 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by purple72Gremlin purple72Gremlin wrote:

Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

Originally posted by Zathien666 Zathien666 wrote:

So?????? What are you trying to say? An inline 6 is a completely different and stronger design that's why the diesel industry uses them. Don't know why you wasted your time........so...... Yah...... Still no 360.... No dyno..... No 450hp to the wheels. There is alot of talk tho I'll give you guys that no doubt. Oh and all engines back then had high nickel content up until about 72. There was nickel in engine blocks even in 84. Aaaaaaaannnnnd as far as a sbf splitting your right 302's don't get much higher than 550-600hp. But that's a v8. As for a 351w they go much higher in hp than 600 hp and that's to the wheels.
 
Show me one stock block/crank/head 351 windsor combo that makes 600 to the wheels naturally aspirated, Please.
And dont forget the dyno slips too..........Id like to see that too........Sleepy    I do know for a fact that Barry Allen can build a 450 HP 360...............Ive seem some of his engines run on the track,  Randy and Robert McCorkle was turning 9's with a 401 in a 72 AMX...............

I think he is confusing a 351 W  with a 351Cleveland  500 ponies with bolt on parts. 
I wish I had kept 20 years of time cards . I built just about all engine types over the years . and getting over 500 HP costs no mater what you start with. and believe it or not the highest HP from factory I ever had was a 1970 Olds 98. 455 . HP rating 525hp , 422 lbs/tq  


-------------
71 360 Hornet sst 83 2wd 360/727 Eagle wagon (crashed)


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jan/15/2011 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by Zathien666 Zathien666 wrote:

Nope all articles I have read and prices from websites I have not fabricated anything. To believe that amc is actually capable of competing against the big 3 in engineering is narrow minded. They weren't the best of their time they aren't the best now and they won't be anything special in the future. They are kool to own and fun to drive but that's about it.
 
AHA, the truth comes out. I read it on the web, it must be true! Those guys wouldn't put anything on their web site that wasn't true, right?
Oh, the great mis-information stupid-highway.  How many technical web sites can I come up with that are totally wrong without trying........ tooooo many.
How about the transmission expert who swore that the pressures behaved a certain way, and a (former) member who argued that the site was totally correct, even after I scanned and posted pages directly out of the tech manuals for that transmission showing not only he, but the site he worshipped was wrong?? But it was on that fellow's web site, and he knows more! (no, he was a shade-tree person, but me with factory training in transmissions didn't know as much, I guess)
Even some of the better car magazines have come out and touted AMCs advanced engineering. Back in the day, Popular Mechanics and other magazines marvalled over AMC's ingenious designs and their engine abilities. And right on MOPAR using some of the AMC engine engineering after they engulfed AMC - not because AMC was inferior, but because they had some technology that was better than MOPAR.
Yeah, don't forget the trans-am racing............
Before you go quoting and touting web sites, you might just visit GAD and Cordova AMC Nationals and see just what AMC engines have to offer.
You've been believing and listening to too many AMC haters.
So far I see no facts from this - only opinions based not even on first-hand experience, but from "what he reads" and hears from others! Of course if you hang out in the Mustang and Camaro forums you'll come to believe AMC was all crap all of the time and never had a good engine. DUH.
 
>>That being said taking any stock amc engine and trying to get 400-450+hp to the wheels out of it would cost over 15k.<<
Where the @#$ did THAT come from? 15K? Joking, right? Even after all the threads here on how some folks have turned some pretty decent HP on a budget - Ken Parkman and his engine a while back - bet it wasn't a 15K budget there unless he's got more dough than I imagine.
 
In some forums, some folks would be screaming "troll"...............


-------------


http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com

http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com


Posted By: Wrambler
Date Posted: Jan/16/2011 at 6:19pm
TROLL?

More Like. What's the air speed velocity of a Swallow?

Troll or zealot. Makes no real difference as his three questions
and assorted answers are diatribe either fabricated to stir the pot or worse. (Like he realty believes what he speaketh)...


Party on Garth, Pacer not needed.



-------------
Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler
4.0L, 5 speed
2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
2019 Chrysler 300


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/16/2011 at 6:55pm
Oh,  and I suppose you think we really landed on the moon too.  I read that was faked.  I don't think this is over.  Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbour?ConfusedLOL

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special





Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Jan/16/2011 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

  Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbour?ConfusedLOL

They did it again?


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/16/2011 at 7:10pm
One of my favorite lines Big smile

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Aljav
Date Posted: Jan/16/2011 at 7:32pm
LMAO..yeaa.. This is really not the place to be saying AMC are slow junk.  I guess my 10 Second, steel head, stock crank and rods is really a Chevy underneath it all. Like Build said "Before you go quoting and touting web sites, you might just visit GAD and Cordova AMC Nationals and see just what AMC engines have to offer."

Nothing is more amazing is to have a AMC and have it AMC powered and Kick butt on the "other Guys"  Trust me. We have been doing it for years!!!!!




-------------
69 AMX 9.86 132 mph 71 JAV/AMX and 69 Javelin, .. NAMDRA member #1106


Posted By: ramble-on
Date Posted: Jan/19/2011 at 3:31pm

This is a great thread,parryI'm looking for 400-425 hp 360,where ever it goes flywheel,wheels i don't care. Just need to know how much of the 15k i'll need to get that done. Oops! Should i keep my amc 20 3:54 posi for that, or go big 3-ish!LOL I think we were all missled on this AMC thing,Smack Bummer!



Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Jan/19/2011 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by Aljav Aljav wrote:

LMAO..yeaa.. This is really not the place to be saying AMC are slow junk.

I'll keep the Amboat anyhow. Makes for a nice slow leisurely cruise down the 1/4 so I can enjoy the scenery.


Posted By: ramble-on
Date Posted: Jan/19/2011 at 4:07pm
Wave to all those nice ford fans.


Posted By: toolmanxiii
Date Posted: Jan/19/2011 at 4:49pm
Bigger wave to all the Idiot camaro/firebird fans . would you believe the motor sub frame is held on by 4 bolts . just 4 . look next time you pass one 



-------------
71 360 Hornet sst 83 2wd 360/727 Eagle wagon (crashed)


Posted By: toolmanxiii
Date Posted: Jan/19/2011 at 4:59pm
sorry all you big gm fans . just whooped a 1982 iroc light to light  with a 6cyl. spirit . he was pissed , now he wants to buy it . 
 sorry I should have read it (82 not 72) Doh 


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71 360 Hornet sst 83 2wd 360/727 Eagle wagon (crashed)


Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Jan/19/2011 at 8:47pm
A 72 IROC.??????????HuHConfused

-------------
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special






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