Marvel Mystery Oil as a Lead Substitute?
Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21568
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Topic: Marvel Mystery Oil as a Lead Substitute?
Posted By: SEdmonds
Subject: Marvel Mystery Oil as a Lead Substitute?
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 2:12pm
| OK...this is to settle a bet. Can MMO be used as a lead substitute? This is in the 72 Wag (360). We are putting 89 octane in, and adding a can of lead substitute every tank right now. Our gas here is 10% ethanol. Engine is stock - never been apart and has the 2100 carb. |
Replies:
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 2:41pm
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Won't hurt but you don't need it. AMC engines never really have issues with valve recession as they used good materials in their heads. The lead subs. that are most common use MMT and are more like an octane booster. I have been running unleaded in the Ambassador for 230,000 miles and never had valve seat issues. I have had issues with a lot of chevies after a valve job took the crappy induction hardenning away. AMC must have hardenned them deeper. So in the end nothing is needed. MMO is a good product and will help keep your carb clean though. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: SEdmonds
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 5:07pm
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Thanks, Steve.
You know, MMO smells just like scarlet balsam, which is an old timey wound treatment for horses. I wonder if that's not the "secret ingredient" in MMO.
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Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 5:34pm
| Just run the gas. |
Posted By: sidewinder
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 5:52pm
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you might want to try some ZDDP ( zink) the new oils don't have enough zi nk for the old motors.....search it on goggle for more info. add a small bottle every oil change....
------------- Chuck Page ,AKA Sidewinder 1968 "BLACK CHERRY" Javelin Previous owner of 2013 Heritage Cup winner 1970 BBO AMX |
Posted By: Rebel 327
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 5:59pm
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Does this help you engine??:
Ingredient # 01
Ingredient Name BENZENE, 1,2-DICHLORO-CAS Number 95501 Ingredient # 02 Ingredient Name MINERAL SPIRITS CAS Number 8052413 Ingredient # 03 Ingredient Name NAPTHENIC HYDROCARBONS You be the judge! ------------- Rebel 327 4-speed |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 6:26pm
 ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Rebel 327 wrote:Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 10:37pm
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Yes, that explains how it keeps the bugs out of your engine.
I think perhaps time to add some to this computer.............. -------------  http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 11:33pm
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Posted By: SEdmonds
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 11:44pm
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Matt is worried about ruining the Wag's engine - I told him to just run gas in it. LOL.
I'll have him look into the zinc stuff.
Benzene is an interesting little hydrocarbon. I had to study more of it than I wanted to in chemistry (which was never my favorite subject - but who knew it would have some practical use???) - It makes a beautiful molecule - the famous "benzene ring". Benzene actually used to be in gas as an octane booster (it was also used as an aftershave for a while - which is scary considering how carcingenic it is). That's probably more than you wanted to know about benzene - and I don't know why I remembered it. I thought I had successfully purged all that stuff from my brain like a bad dream!
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Posted By: nda racer
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 11:52pm
Same here.
All the stuff I've seen engines go threw and live, the last thing you have to sweat is some mircoscopic zinc level or lack of lead.
Ya know a 350 Buick can run 15 miles with ZERO oil pressure at 240 degree at 100+ mph rapping and ticking the whole way? Stop in a convienence store at 3am grab some el cheapo no name oil, pour two in, find nothing on the stick..... go buy two more.... now you're a half a qt low. He fires the mill and it's ticking, which PO's him VERY much. So he starts burying the tach off 7 grand till only one or two of the lifters still tick. Then you suggest he buys a qt of trans fluid (no MMO, Risolone or any other snake oil), dump it in and Wha La, quiet as a Caddy-a-lack. Do this to the mill a dozen of more times at seperate occasions and it's still alive years and years and dif chassis' later.
Then I have many story's on cam break-ins that people wouldn't believe, yet they never ate a lobe.
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Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 11:55pm
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Run it with reg fuel, its fine. ------------- http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: SEdmonds
Date Posted: Aug/01/2010 at 11:59pm
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I'll try to break it gently to number one son that his mother was right..... |
Thanks, guys.Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/02/2010 at 12:06am
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Mamma san knows great many things........ ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: RegattaBlueAMX
Date Posted: Aug/02/2010 at 5:40am
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SEdmonds
Just a quick clarification. Benzene is a component of gasoline (typically 1-2%). I think you're confusing benzene with MTBE which was added as an oxygenate at various percentages (even seasonally) to satisfy emissions and octane requirements.
I think I just bored myself to sleep....  ------------- 1969 AMX 390, 4-spd, 3.54:1, Go Package, P65 1970 Javelin SST, 360, 4-spd, 3.54:1, Go Package, P90 1967 Rogue Convertible (Under Construction) |
Posted By: Peter Marano
Date Posted: Aug/02/2010 at 6:41am
Just to clarify, the seats in a 1972 would not have been induction hardened. I believe the valve seat recession occurs at engine output, I can't imagine it being a problem. |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/02/2010 at 6:46am
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Interesting since the other companies were doing induction hardening on some engines for years by that time. (I've got a book on engine top-end building, and it talks quite a bit about that topic) So why AMC didn't? The book was published in the early 70s and covers the 1960s and first couple of years of the 70s. I'd just run it, too. When I was on the farm in the 80s, we bought an actual lead substitute. It was NOT an octane booster, was purely for valves and seats and did nothing to "boost" octane. I doubt you will find it on the auto parts stores or walmart. I might still have some left as I stopped using it after a while. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/02/2010 at 9:37am
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Look at the contents if yo can find a bottle. They usually containe MMT which is now used as an octane booster. Also I have yet to hear of a manufacterer who wasn't induction hardenning by the early seventies. The auto companies knew about the coming low lead and no lead and prepared for it in advance. This started well in advance of the shift to unleaded because they had to warranty these things. This is also why they shifted to sodium filled valves in the heavy duty engines early on in the pollution days. They were getting ready for the higher temps and lean mixtures. If you were going to make a product today that you knew would be operated in vastly different conditions next week and you had to warranty it, Wouln't you think ahead. Even if it was just to keep your reputation? ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: SEdmonds
Date Posted: Aug/02/2010 at 9:57am
Benzene was used to boost octane to limit engine knock in gasoline before WWII (and no, I don't remember that far back). LOL. It was one of those little pearls of useless info a chemistry professor I had used to toss out to us. Weird thing is, I remember that stuff better than the chemistry part.
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Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Aug/02/2010 at 3:40pm
Feel free to list them out with backing documentation. |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/02/2010 at 3:45pm
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Not to be confused with the Benzites, eh, Ms. Edmonds?
------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: SEdmonds
Date Posted: Aug/02/2010 at 4:25pm
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Posted By: mramc
Date Posted: Aug/03/2010 at 5:31pm
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Marvel Mystery Oil is top end lubricant , not an octane booster. Tetra-Ethel Lead is not an octane booster either. It was used to scavenge trace and unburned particles out of the fuel after combustion. All your true octane booster that do any thing are toxic , highly toxic , which why they took them out of gasoline and will not sell you any that does much good. The octane is in how the fuel is refined and what "CUT" it is is. Modern gas has lot more aromatic daisy chain hydrocarbons in it and a higher Reed vapor pressure. Works OK in modern fuel injected engines , not so well in old carburetor-ed engines, as they also use too much ethanol in the gas. Ethanol evaporates pretty easily , especial the more you have and older it gets. Most gas has about 10 to 15% these days.E-85 has as much as 85 % ethanol, but out west here it's more like e-40 or 50 . Ethanol much more readily evaporates then pure gas which basically can not get any more. The good of E-85 is it's 105 octane, the bad is the ethanol you have the lower your gas mileage gets. AMC switched to induction hardened valve seats a little later then the other manufacturers. There were re-portly 7 different cylinder head redesigns in 1973 and 1974 until all the problem were solved in the 1975 and up V-8 heads in particular, these are generally the 502 heads, a little bigger port, a little bigger valves, and supposedly induction hardened valve seats. AMC generally did not have head problems other then those 73/74 heads, which most people learn to stay away from. LRDaum ------------- LRDaum |
Posted By: 69 ambassador 390
Date Posted: Aug/03/2010 at 8:01pm
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It's amazing how tertra ethyl lead was used to reduce emmissions way back at the turn of the century? Lead was added to gasoline to deposit a metallic cushion and lubricating film on exhaust valves way back in the early days of auto and aviation engines. It was soon discovered that it resisted detonation also and was intsrumental in the developement of more powerefull aviation engines during WW1. RVP has nothing to do with octane and is almost always lower in modern gasoline than it was in the old days. Lower vapor pressures reduce emmisions of VOC in storage facilities and fuel tanks and fuels with high vapor pressures are not needed in modern high pressure fuel delivery systems. Where did you get your information. There is a very good article on RVP and specific gravities as well as othe things relative to custom blending of racing fuels available from Torco and I beleive Sunoco has some litteriture also. You are actually in error on many of your assumptions. As far as the induction hardenning, Where is that info from? The size of the valves was only increased from 1.625 to 1.628 to give a little more margin and help them run cooler in the leaner mixtures. There is not really any difference in the seat area. Please provide proof so we can switch to the perfected heads. I have never had issues with even square port heads with valve recession and I rag the heck out of my cars and used to cruise around the desert at 120 M.P.H. on unleaded and no additives. ------------- Steve Brown Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
Posted By: jeremy0711
Date Posted: Aug/03/2010 at 10:55pm
I have heard this myth of AMC heads have some better hardening process while being made but every set of 291s, 993s, and 502s that I have had needed new seats. There were several valves that were sunk meaning it needed hardened seats for it was wearing down. |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/04/2010 at 7:19am
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I'm with 69/Steve. I've dealt with ICEs since about 1970, and because I've dealt with antique engines and cars, and have friends in the petrol industry (and an uncle who worked in the oil fields) have done some studies on petrol as well as I love automotive history in general. Check the facts on ethanol blends, too. This is urban legend and myth that the content varies so much. There are laws and restrictions and if your state is like Iowa, they actually TEST. And if the content is off by xxx, then it's as bad as selling 3/4 of a gallon at the pump and showing it as a gallon. It's the department of agriculture here that does it. By law, the content of e10 can't be more than 10%. In fact, they are studying now to possibly allow up to 15% ethanol. Right now, it can't be more than 10, but ISU and others have done studies showing that most cars won't see a difference between 10% and 15%. There's so much garbage (that's too nice, it's really $%!*) being spread and published about gas in general, and this "I heard" or "I read" as far as gasolines, ethanol, etc - I'd frankly like to see where anyone found it was actually tested and published and not hearsay from some shadetree mechanic with no real experience, actually tested and verified 15% or more, or that E85 was actually less than 85%, especially as low as 40%. At least in Iowa, it would cost them a bundle because of the HUGE breaks they got for using ethanol. And this state works it so that it's advantageous to the blender to get it right. Jeremy - you must have gotten your hands on the worst AMC heads out there.......... honestly. I worked on all brands back in the 70s and 80s (started mostly with AMC), and no-lead and ethanol came here pretty quickly. Can't say I've had any worse issues with AMC heads than ANY other heads I've ever worked on. In fact, I had to do more seat work on Ford and Chevy in the early 80s than any other cars. We worked on all brands, from Datsun to Porsche/VW to Ford/Lincoln, Buick junk, you name it, never saw AMC as better or worse at all. ICEs were used originally mostly for farm and industry, automotive got the technology last, so think of the real reasons for lead in the gas.......... Engines were developed for NON-auto uses well before cars were even a thought. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: Peter Marano
Date Posted: Aug/04/2010 at 8:01am
Should have typed 'valve recession occurs at high engine output'. |
Posted By: stonedblue
Date Posted: Aug/04/2010 at 9:10am
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Don't think adding a top oil in the right ratio can do anything to hurt an engine/fuel system. For years we raced methonal fueled sprint cars without top oil and dispite proper mantainance we rebuilt Hilborn fuel pumps 3-4 times a season. Once we started using top oil, fuel pumps lasted all season.Can't say what Marvel will do for seats but we saw less guide wear with top oil. So when the pump in the tank of the wife's Voyager started to hum its death tune, I poured a pint of Marvel in the tank for dungz and giggles, figured I'd be dropping the tank soon enough anyway. The pump hushed and is still in there 2 months later.
LOL....dungz = Sh itz....  ------------- I can build an engine, but, I can't drain oil without a mess.'04Ram,'99Plym.Van,"96Exploder,'79Dodge pickup, '71Jav. '68Jav, and '90 Gold Rush trailer |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Aug/04/2010 at 9:19am
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methanol - a "drying agent", I use alcohols to clean the greases, dirts, oils, such off machines used around fabric as they clean well, leave no real residue, remove all traces of oil or grease and don't transfer anything to the fabrics. So I can imagine any lube, esp MMO, added could help a bit. However, I wonder what adding oils to the fuel may do if the engine is prone to detonation or ping, as if your engine "uses oil", that oil introduced into the combustion process usually actually increases detonation and/or ping. Probably not an issue with racing, however. We used to add it a lot ourselves back in the 70s. Geesh, we used it on our air tools, too! Kept a small squirt bottle of MMO in the toolbox to use with impact wrenches, air chisels, etc. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |