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FAST EZ-EFI Project

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15315
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 7:31pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: FAST EZ-EFI Project
Posted By: whizkidder
Subject: FAST EZ-EFI Project
Date Posted: Dec/16/2009 at 9:12pm

Decided to spring for fuel injection for the AMX, and went with the EZ-EFI TBI setup from FAST.  Atlantic Speed had the best price (~$1900 for the master kit), although I'm told that Summit will match them if you call.  I've just started the process, so will attempt to document it here.


The system is almost completely plug and play, but for my AMX, there are three mandatory mods.  The system uses a wide-band O2 sensor, so that requires a bung to be welded into the exhaust.  The system also needs a fuel return line to the tank from the pressure regulator.  The water temp sensor requires a 3/8 pipe thread (which my stock manifold doesn't have...), so that requires a mod as well.

 

APD just got in the first shipment of repop fuel tanks for 68-70 AMXs and Javelins, so I decided to swap out my tank to ensure no surprises.  I also sprang for a repro fuel sending unit, which I modified to accept the fuel return line.  I considered fabbing the return line into the tank, but decided that would leave an extra hole if I ever wanted to return the car to stock w/carb.

 

Some picts of progress so far:

 

New tank (requires re-location of the filler neck from your old tank; Also, these are non-California models, so no internal expansion baffle/vent):



New sender (with fuel return pipe silver-soldered in): 










 

Checking the calibration of the sender -- 73 ohms empty, 9 ohms full (was off a few ohms, so adjusted the tangs that limit the float travel):








 

Making sure the float bottoms out before the fuel level drops below the pickup tube (vacuum caps to keep the water out of the pipes):



 

Sender with new "sock" ready to install:



 

Sender is sealed in place by a new O-ring and lock ring (followed by a re-check of the ohms at empty, then again after turning the tank upside down):

 



 

FAST EZ-EFI master kit (with fuel pump and hose/fittings kit):




 

Not ideal, but I'm going to try this water outlet (AMC part #3238508) because it has the 3/8 pipe bung already machined in.  I'll drill a small hole in the thermostat directly below the sender to make sure it can see at least some of the heat as the engine warms up before the thermostat opens.  If this doesn't work, I'll have to come up with plan B:

 


 

More to follow as I drop the old tank, move the filler pipe to the new tank, and proceed with the rest of the install.


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague



Replies:
Posted By: PlazinJavelin
Date Posted: Dec/16/2009 at 9:55pm
That's a great upgrade, thanks for sharing the info and pics.

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PlazinJavelin
Marlin Wannabe




Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Dec/16/2009 at 10:07pm
bummer the tanks don't come with a filler - THAT is the part I need!!
Anyway, nice progress there. Good pics showing detail.


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http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com


Posted By: kirkwood
Date Posted: Dec/17/2009 at 7:35am
great start Ron, I'm looking forward to further updates! 

I didn't know they had the tanks now - that is great! Is it galvanized? It almost looks painted in the pics. 


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AMO Newsletter Editor


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/17/2009 at 8:34am

It has paint or a similar coating.  I can't tell about galvanizing, but if so, it's under the paint.  In any case, it's better than my old one (that has been coated with a purplish-looking stuff on the inside), and it doesn't have the internal expansion tank that robs 3 gallons of capacity.  Hope to drain/drop the old tank tonight, and get started toward swapping out the filler neck.



-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/17/2009 at 8:56pm
Day Two: Fuel Tank. Drained and dropped the old tank, removed the filler neck, and cleaned it up to get it ready to install in the new tank.

I jacked up the rear of the car to create a better siphon, and drained the tank via the rubber hose at the fuel pump:



Shot of the sending unit area on the old tank (sending unit ground wire hanging by a thread, and lock ring barely engaged):



Shot of the route the fuel line takes from the sending unit area (passenger side) to the driver's side frame rail (wire hanging down is the sending unit wire from the dash gauge):



Going to use the original fuel line for a return, so am glad I looked close here -- the pipe is almost flat!



This jury-rigged line is where the original vent line for the California emissions was supposed to go to some sort of roll-over valve before running parallel with the fuel line to the front and ending up on the firewall behind the driver's side valve cover (yes, that's actually a piece of smaller diameter hose stuffed into the original hoses where the valve used to be):



The old tank is out, and looks much worse than I had previously thought. The filler neck has been pushed forward, kinking the top center of the tank down (and cracking the solder joint), and then has been pulled back down into place and the crack filled with some sort of putty.


A couple of sharp whacks with a rubber hammer breaks the rest of the joint loose, and I pulled the neck out of the tank by hand:



I couldn't believe how someone had jury-rigged a non-standard (I think...) "sock" onto the sending unit. No wonder the gage went to empty when there was still 4-5 gallons in the tank. The inside of the tank has been coated with some sort of reddish colored sealer, and believe me, it looks just awful inside. I had thought about offering it for sale since it had no leaks, but trust me -- you don't want it!:



Had to take the "sock" off to get it out of the tank. Here it is as it was installed (float adjusted to hit the bottom tang with at least 3 inches of fuel still in the tank):



The filler neck cleaned up nicely, and seemed to be covered with solder almost to the top:



Note the lip formed on the bottom center of the neck. No idea why it was made this way, but does keep the neck from pulling out of the tank when pushed up (as in a rear-end accident) (also handy to know this if you're trying to remove one intact as I am for the new repop tank -- I got lucky as mine was cracked loose on top so I just forced it down):



Here is the neck just setting in the opening in the new tank:



I feel pretty good about my progress so far. The tank straps are in real good shape, but need 40 years of undercoating, paint, and gunk cleaned off them before the new tank can go back in. I also have to fix (probably shorten) the original hard fuel line where I found the kink so I won't have that restriction in the return line. I think I'll leave the filler neck loose until I test fit the new tank, so I can mark it and get it as close to center in the filler hole in the rear valance as possible. With luck, I'll have another update tomorrow night or Saturday. Stay tuned.



-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Dec/17/2009 at 9:37pm
Good work!! Only thing I would have done different is you should have made the fuel feed 3/8 since you were drilling and adding to the sender anyway, then you can run 3/8 line to the front and keep the 5/16 for  the return.

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Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/18/2009 at 6:47am
Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

you should have made the fuel feed 3/8 since you were drilling and adding to the sender anyway, then you can run 3/8 line to the front and keep the 5/16 for  the return.
 
I actually considered that, but given that this car will never see a drag strip, and the 5/16 line never starved the engine for fuel (even with the kink) using a standard Carter mechanical pump, I think I'll be okay.  Worst case will be if I have to pull the sending unit and re-modify it as you have stated.
 
 


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Dec/18/2009 at 10:35am

Vary cool and nice pictures. When this kit was brought up on the forum I looked it over but was confused (dont take much to do) on what all was needed for the kit as they had add on’s that thru me. May look closer as my street car will need a carb as the one on the car is crap even after a rebuild.  I like the return you made, beats adding it to the tank. I was also thinking of adding the temp sender to the stat housing so I could keep the stock gauge inside.

On the fuel/return line I would run new alum. for both, you dont want to push crap from inside the old line back into the tank using as a return. I know some say dont use alum. but car will not see salt so I would go for it. Keep up the good work, we will be following it.

Dave ----



-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/18/2009 at 9:13pm
Day Three: New Tank.

After spending 20 minutes cleaning and painting the tank straps, I expected to spend another few minutes soldering the filler neck into the new tank. After 2 1/2 hours, I finally succeeded in getting it in and sealed. I used an old "pressure/vacuum" fuel cap, and with the sender in the tank, plugged the feed line and pressurized the tank with air thru the return tube, then checked for leaks. It took me SIX iterations of soldering it in, checking it, taking it back out, re-prepping the surfaces, and re-soldering it back in. What a job Angry


I didn't take any pictures of my soldering job, as I don't want y'all to see how sloppy it looks. You can't see it with the tank installed, so only I will know Wink. Important thing is it don't leak.


One of the more frustrating aspects of the job was trying to keep the inside of the tank clean while prepping, tinning, and soldering. Undoubtedly I got some dust in there when I used a Dremel and sanding roll to grind the surface in/around the hole down to bare metal (a previous poster asked about the tank being galvanized -- still not sure, but there is definately something under the paint, as solder absolutely refused to stick until I ground whatever it was off).


The most frustrating part was during soldering, some of the solder invaribly dripped through the joint and splashed into the tank. Once I was done, I had to remove the sending unit, reach inside the tank to ensure all the solder puddles were loose, then shake the tank to get them all to the corner nearest the sending unit where I could just reach them with my fingers to drag them out. Kept this up until I could near nothing rattling around in the tank except the sending unit float.


I also reused my old sending unit lock ring, as it was slightly bigger in diameter than the repro I got from APD, so fit better and tended not to pop out past the retaining fingers on the tank when I was tapping it home.


Finished product:











Not near the progress I had hope for tonight, but now I can start on the plumbing and fuel pump install. More tomorrow!



-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/19/2009 at 10:47pm
Day Four: Plumbing, etc.

Lots of progress today. Know most of you are tired of reading my ramblings, so will just put a short note with the pics:


The fuel pump/hoses kit comes with a regulator and fluid-dampened pressure gauge. Two pressure inputs on the sides, and the return goes out the bottom. Comes with the mounting bracket and all the fittings/clamps you need (-6 AN). Hose barb is for a vacuum signal to vary the pressure.




Call me anal, but with the rear of the car still up on stands, I wanted to get the regulator "level." Used a straight-edge across the air cleaner tub for a sight gauge.



Mounted the regulator just behind the washer bag on the driver's inner fender.



The fuel pump supplied with the kit is a standard Carter pump, and comes with the fittings to suck from a 3/8 hose barb and pump through a supplied filter into -6 AN pressure line.



This is how the instructions say to assemble it. Ends up almost a foot long. Shown with foam anti-vibration sleeve and supplied clamps, ready to mount.



The instructions say to mount the pump as low as possible with respect to the tank, so as to provide a good siphon. I decided to mount mine inside the frame rail on the driver's side -- not quite as low as the bottom of the tank, but somewhat out of danger.



Here are the contents of the hoses/fittings box. Fittings are -6 AN and press into the hose. Instructions say to heat the hose, lubricate both the hose and fitting, and then push the fittings into the hose up to the little rubber end cap. RIGHT! I must not have eaten enough Wheaties this morning, because the best I could do was about halfway. My final solution (after fighting them for about a half-hour) was to secure the hose in the vice (using two worm clamps siamesed together to catch on the vice jaws), then heat, then drive the fittings into the end of the hose using a rubber hammer. For the 90-degree fittings, I used a small open end wrench to catch the fitting and used a ball peen hammer on the wrench. I used the supplied hose from the sending unit forward on the pressure side, from the throttle body to the regulator, and from the regulator down to the OEM fuel line in the lower front frame rail. I ended up with about 9 or 10 feet of hose left over -- would have been plenty to run back as the return line if I had chosen to do that.



Here is the throttle body mounted in place of my Holley 4160. The only linkage mod requred was to move the little ball stud from the carb to the throttle body linkage -- otherwise, the linkage was identical to the Holley.



This shot shows the 7/32" hole I drilled in the thermostat so the temp sensor would get a heat signal as the engine warms up before the thermostat opens. Positioned the hole directly below the tip of the sensor.



The instructions say to put the O2 sensor at least 20" from the manifold, but with the sidepipes, that would put the sensor in the pipe that hangs down under the frame rail, and it would be visible looking through the wheel well behind the front tire, and out in the "breeze" -- subject to damage. I put mine in the vertical part of the pipe, about even with the inside of the frame rail. Also, the instructions say to drill a 3/4" hole, but the shoulder on the supplied sensor bung is actually closer to 7/8, so I had to ream the hole bigger after using my holesaw.



Please hold the laughter about my (lack of ) welding skills...




The system requires a "clean" tach signal, so is supplied with this small signal filter for those who are not using an ignition box. Tried to hide it under the coil bracket.



Mounted the ECU on the inner fender behind the passenger shock tower.





Here is the interim end state with all the sensors/etc. hooked up. The supplied wiring harness could have been about 2-3 feet shorter for my chosen ECU location, but I didn't feel like cutting it open, shortening all the wires, and splicing them back. Maybe another day... The little white tags will come off once I get it fired up and confirm it works properly (besides, all the wires are stenciled with what they go to anyway -- the tags must be for old farts like me with poor eyesight!).



All that is left is to hook up the primary + and - wires to the battery, switched 12v (for which I intend to use a relay triggered by a wire from under the dash), and put gas in the tank. From there, the initial calibration and startup process looks to be very simple. I'll post here again when I get it running, and then if/when I discover pros or cons that warrant broadcast. Thanks for following along -- it's been fun!




-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Dec/20/2009 at 7:23am
Ron,
You are doing a great job with both the work on this upgrade as well as the pictures and documentation of the process.  So when can I send my AMX over to your "shop" to do the same upgrade on my car???? Thumbs Up


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Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: Rebel Machine
Date Posted: Dec/20/2009 at 7:42am
When you soldered the filler neck to the gas tank, how did you do it? Pipe sweating with a Bernz-o-matic?
 
-Steve-
 


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/20/2009 at 8:39am
The first 5 times I tried to get the filler neck to seal, I was using a Bernz-O-Matic trigger torch (the one with the pizeo igniter built in) with MAPP gas.  The nozzle on that torch was producing a fairly wide flame, and I think it was just too much heat.  The last time, I switched to my 30-year old standard Bernz-O-Matic (with the flame adjustment knob) with propane.  That torch nozzle puts out a pinpoint flame so I could work my way around the neck without overheating the area I had just done.
 
I've soldered a bunch of stuff over the years - copper pipe, radiator tubes, tanks and mounting brackets, galvanized buckets, etc.  -- this was the most difficult (but also the first time I used the trigger torch...).


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: PlazinJavelin
Date Posted: Dec/20/2009 at 11:27am
The last two off-the-self Bernz mapp torches I tried from one of the home improvement stores, I returned and got my money back. Horrible. One would even cut out when the torch end got hot after about 30-40 seconds and wouldn't relight until cool. Some kind of safety feature? I also reverted to a 30+ year old large solder iron to finish the peice I was working on at the time.

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PlazinJavelin
Marlin Wannabe




Posted By: Greyhounds_AMX
Date Posted: Dec/20/2009 at 12:23pm
I don't think your welds look bad at all. At least you remembered to slide the flange up above the O2 bung before you welded it. That's quite a pickle to be in, let me tell you....

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1968 AMX 390 w/T5


Posted By: needafasterAMX
Date Posted: Dec/20/2009 at 12:35pm
Were is the pictures, I don't see any.

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74 AMX, 401
Viper spec T56 6 speed trans
Hydroboost brakes with rear disks from a Avenger
3:73 TG rear,now Trutrac with 3:15
A Turbo is in my future.


Posted By: Peter Marano
Date Posted: Dec/20/2009 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by needafasterAMX needafasterAMX wrote:

Were is the pictures, I don't see any.


To view the photos I had to open the thread in Internet Explorer, could not see them with Firefox.

Perhaps someone who knows about such things could explain.


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Dec/20/2009 at 1:10pm
Interesting project.  am curious on how the car runs!


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/20/2009 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by purple72Gremlin purple72Gremlin wrote:

Interesting project.  am curious on how the car runs!
 
My initial impression is that this system is a home run.
 
Configuring the computer and starting it up was pretty cool.  Just a few simple steps like desired idle speed, cu in, number of cyl, and calibrating the throttle position sensor at idle and WOT.  She fired right up (after I remembered to re-connect the coil wire -- Doh!), and settled into a real rough and slow idle. 
 
Unbelieveably, the computer kept the engine running at a speed as low as 400 rpm (with the Holley, I couldn't keep it from stalling much below 850).  It got better and better as the engine warmed up, and the hole in the thermostat to allow heat to get to the temp sensor seemed to work great.  I did have to open the throttle blades with the idle adjustment screw to get the Idle Air Motor into an acceptable range for controlling the idle (and then re-calibrate the TPS). 
 
Once warmed up to operating temperature, the car was immediately driveable, although a bit rough in spots.  First trip was about 15 miles including 55 mph highway and in town.  The computer "learns" fast, and the driveability improved rapidly.  Now that it has "learned" what the engine wants at idle, the ECU has somehow taken quite a bit of the "lump" out of the cam -- it still sounds great, just not quite as menacing as it did with the Holley.
 
I just got back from a cruise around the Atlanta area -- about 100 miles give or take.  The AMX seems like a different car -- the 3.91 gears used to make it seem like it was working hard at 70, but with the EFI, it just cruises along -- just begging you to hammer the throttle.  Except for some slight stumbling just off idle and at constant engine speed around 2000 rpm in the lower gears, the throttle response is like nothing I've ever experienced.  My neck is thankful for high-back bucket seats.
 
I've only just started to play around with the target A/F ratios (idle, cruise, and WOT), as well as accel fuel (sort of like an accelerator pump on a carb), so I'm sure it will only get better.


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 8:45am
Great job, glad it works well for you!!

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Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 10:09am

Great to hear it runs good and getting better each time out. Do you think your MPG changed much and if so how?

Would you mine listing the part numbers you use for the kit & any add ons you got? I want to add this to my “want list” and like to have all the info.

Thanks

Dave ----



-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 10:52am
I bought the 60227 Master Kit from Atlantic Speed -- just over $1900.00 shipped to my door.
 
I bought a new repro sending unit and a repro gas tank from APD -- Just over $500.00 shipped to my door (you won't need either of these if yours are in decent shape).
 
I got the AMC NOS water outlet (AMC part #3238508) off Ebay about a year ago, and don't remember what I paid -- probably like $25.00 shipped (if your manifold already has a bung for 3/8 NPT, you won't need this either...).
 
I modded my existing thermostat (was nearly new), but you could replace it if you wanted to.
 
I spent probably another $30.00 on shop supplies and little stuff like metal screws to mount the ECU and Regulator, a relay to feed full 12V from the battery to the "switched 12v" input to the ECU, wire ties, and a few crimp-on connectors to hook up the relay and feed wire from under the dash as well as the primary + and - wires from the ECU directly to the battery terminals.
 
Altogether, that's less than $2500.00 (and less than $2K if you don't need the tank/sender).
 


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 11:03am

Thanks I went back thru the posts and the first one did say Master Kit and from who, what a dummy I am ;) I had my tank done a few years ago and a new sender at the time too so just need to add the return. That is the EZ part coming up with the $$ is the hard part.

Again great job & thanks again.

Dave ----



-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 11:23am
This whole thing is very intriquing to me but one thing I didn't see mentioned was why you opted to go back to the stock intake rather than keep the dual plane.  Regardless of how the fuel is supplied, I would think that a performance intake would increase the overall performance with fuel injection just like it would with a carb. 
 
What factors contributed to your decision to go back to the stock intake? Also, did you consider substituting a Machine intake rather than the stock 70 intake?


-------------
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 11:46am
Originally posted by amx39068 amx39068 wrote:

What factors contributed to your decision to go back to the stock intake? Also, did you consider substituting a Machine intake rather than the stock 70 intake?
 
Dan, that would be a whole 'nuther thread -- I'll send you a PM.


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 12:37pm
My guess on the images is in the name:
To me, this indicates a very long name with a space and some browsers simply don't deal with a special character in the name - the &amp - I'd have to look up. Some browsers don't play well with such things and since IE isn't a standards based browser it would work while the standards-based browsers, Firefox, Mozilla, etc. probably or might not work..........
src="http://theamcforum.com/forum/uploads/657/2009-12-16_Fuel_Sender_Mod_&amp_Install_091_Medium.jpg" 



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Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 12:41pm
Yup - check this out (it's the file name doing it):

http://htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/problems.html#amp

Ampersands (&'s) in URLs

Another common error occurs when including a URL which contains an ampersand ("&"):

<!-- This is invalid! --> <a href="foo.cgi?chapter=1&section=2&copy=3&lang=en">...</a>

This example generates an error for "unknown entity section" because the "&" is assumed to begin an http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/entities/ - entity reference. Browsers often recover safely from this kind of error, but real problems do occur in some cases. In this example, many browsers correctly convert &copy=3 to ©=3, which may cause the link to fail. Since &lang; is the HTML entity for the left-pointing angle bracket, some browsers also convert &lang=en to 〈=en. And one old browser even finds the entity &sect;, converting &section=2 to §ion=2.

To avoid problems with both validators and browsers, always use &amp; in place of & when writing URLs in HTML:

<a href="foo.cgi?chapter=1&amp;section=2&amp;copy=3&amp;lang=en">...</a>

Note that replacing & with &amp; is only done when writing the URL in HTML, where "&" is a special character (along with "<" and ">"). When writing the same URL in a plain text email message or in the location bar of your browser, you would use "&" and not "&amp;". With HTML, the browser translates "&amp;" to "&" so the Web server would only see "&" and not "&amp;" in the query string of the request.




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http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 1:02pm
So... Do I need to re-name all my pictures?

-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: needafasterAMX
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 1:35pm
I have not been a IE or windblows user in a long time. I was able to use Konqueror to see the pictures.
Thanks


-------------
74 AMX, 401
Viper spec T56 6 speed trans
Hydroboost brakes with rear disks from a Avenger
3:73 TG rear,now Trutrac with 3:15
A Turbo is in my future.


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by whizkidder whizkidder wrote:

Originally posted by purple72Gremlin purple72Gremlin wrote:

Interesting project.  am curious on how the car runs!
 
My initial impression is that this system is a home run.
 
Configuring the computer and starting it up was pretty cool.  Just a few simple steps like desired idle speed, cu in, number of cyl, and calibrating the throttle position sensor at idle and WOT.  She fired right up (after I remembered to re-connect the coil wire -- Doh!), and settled into a real rough and slow idle. 
 
Unbelieveably, the computer kept the engine running at a speed as low as 400 rpm (with the Holley, I couldn't keep it from stalling much below 850).  It got better and better as the engine warmed up, and the hole in the thermostat to allow heat to get to the temp sensor seemed to work great.  I did have to open the throttle blades with the idle adjustment screw to get the Idle Air Motor into an acceptable range for controlling the idle (and then re-calibrate the TPS). 
 
Once warmed up to operating temperature, the car was immediately driveable, although a bit rough in spots.  First trip was about 15 miles including 55 mph highway and in town.  The computer "learns" fast, and the driveability improved rapidly.  Now that it has "learned" what the engine wants at idle, the ECU has somehow taken quite a bit of the "lump" out of the cam -- it still sounds great, just not quite as menacing as it did with the Holley.
 
I just got back from a cruise around the Atlanta area -- about 100 miles give or take.  The AMX seems like a different car -- the 3.91 gears used to make it seem like it was working hard at 70, but with the EFI, it just cruises along -- just begging you to hammer the throttle.  Except for some slight stumbling just off idle and at constant engine speed around 2000 rpm in the lower gears, the throttle response is like nothing I've ever experienced.  My neck is thankful for high-back bucket seats.
 
I've only just started to play around with the target A/F ratios (idle, cruise, and WOT), as well as accel fuel (sort of like an accelerator pump on a carb), so I'm sure it will only get better.
Sounds great!


Posted By: kirkwood
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 2:35pm
Thanks for the updates Ron! 

Does this system use any kind of speed sensor? 


-------------
AMO Newsletter Editor


Posted By: Scoflaw
Date Posted: Dec/21/2009 at 2:37pm
What was the intended goal, when you decided to go this route?


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/22/2009 at 7:16am
Kirkwood: the only speed-sensing input is the tach feed from either the supplied tach module or an ignition box (if you have one).

-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/22/2009 at 7:20am
Main goal was better fuel economy and easier tuning, as well as easier starting.

-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/22/2009 at 11:33am
Okay, Truth in lending.  A couple of updates.
 
Originally posted by whizkidder whizkidder wrote:

After spending 20 minutes cleaning and painting the tank straps, I expected to spend another few minutes soldering the filler neck into the new tank.  After 2 1/2 hours, I finally succeeded in getting it in and sealed.  I used an old "pressure/vacuum" fuel cap, and with the sender in the tank, plugged the feed line and pressurized the tank with air thru the return tube, then checked for leaks.  It took me SIX iterations of soldering it in, checking it, taking it back out, re-prepping the surfaces, and re-soldering it back in.  What a job Angry
 
I didn't take any pictures of my soldering job, as I don't want y'all to see how sloppy it looks.  You can't see it with the tank installed, so only I will know Wink.  Important thing is it don't leak.
 
Actually, when I got the tank back in the car, my filler pipe wasn't exactly centered in the hole in the rear valance, so I pushed it up a bit.  Apparently, when I did this, I cracked the solder joint, and produced a small seep.  Since the tank now has gas in it, I'm not going anywhere near it with a torch, and I don't have an iron that is hot enough to do the job.  Soooo....  am trying to cover and seal up what is there with JB Weld (I know....trailer park engineering).  Will let you know how it turns out.
 
Originally posted by whizkidder whizkidder wrote:

Fittings are -6 AN and press into the hose.  Instructions say to heat the hose, lubricate both the hose and fitting, and then push the fittings into the hose up to the little rubber end cap.  RIGHT!  I must not have eaten enough Wheaties this morning, because the best I could do was about halfway.  My final solution (after fighting them for about a half-hour) was to secure the hose in the vice (using two worm clamps siamesed together to catch on the vice jaws), then heat, then drive the fittings into the end of the hose using a rubber hammer.  For the 90-degree fittings, I used a small open end wrench to catch the fitting and used a ball peen hammer on the wrench. 
 
Apparently, I wasn't as clever with this method as I first thought.  One of the hoses (at the outlet of the filter) had a very slow leak under pressure -- probably due to my abuse of the hose while trying to drive the fittings home.  Got some replacement fittings, and installed them on the hose I had left over, with the same result -- leak at the same place.  Threw up my hands at that point and got some Aeroquip elastometric hose and press-in fittings from Summit (on the recommendation of Hank, one of their telephone order Techs, who said the Aeroquip stuff went together so easy his wife could do it), and then proceeded to almost kill myself trying to get that hose onto those press-on fittings.  I got it done, but either I'm a real weakling, or Hank's wife can go bear hunting with a switch (or it could be due to the fact that it was about 30 degrees in Atlanta last night, and I was working with the garage open to vent all the gas fumes, so the hose wasn't exactly "room temperature...").
 
 


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Dec/22/2009 at 11:36am
Large soldering copper will do it............

OTOH, I've not seen to many that WERE centered.......... typically off a bit one side or the other. You can move the tank to get it better, unless it's down or up.


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Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/22/2009 at 11:52am
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

Large soldering copper will do it............

OTOH, I've not seen to many that WERE centered.......... typically off a bit one side or the other. You can move the tank to get it better, unless it's down or up.
 
I really don't want to go to the trouble of evacuating all traces of gasoline in the tank to the point where I'm comfortable bringing a flame near it, so chose what I hope will be a quicker, and hopefully sufficient, if less than ideal, solution.
 
The filler neck was down far enough to make it difficult to get the cap on, so pushed it up.


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Dec/22/2009 at 1:03pm
a soldering copper involves NO flame near the tank at all.
There's pictures of my doing my tank on my rear suspension project thread......
If you were closer, I'd bring them and come take care of it.....


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Posted By: slownugly
Date Posted: Dec/22/2009 at 1:27pm
great work, im seriously considering using this setup on one of my gremlins. the cherry on top of the startability/driveability and gas mileage is that this setup is concealable with a factory air cleaner save for some wire looms. do you have any pics of the totally finished engine bay? i would love to see them thanks.

-------------
28 model a                  73 gremlin drag car

74 gremlin project

00focus v8 5speed

hot rod rollback
68 american mpg project


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/22/2009 at 1:52pm
The JB Weld will hold just fine as long as the area is perfectly clean (wipe good with paint thinner/mineral spirits) and slightly roughed up. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/22/2009 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

a soldering copper involves NO flame near the tank at all.
There's pictures of my doing my tank on my rear suspension project thread......
If you were closer, I'd bring them and come take care of it.....
 
Duh -- I must have been brain-dead when I replied earlier -- It didn't occur to me what you were talking about until long after I posted.  Wish I had a copper... would have helped.  However, the JB seems to have done the trick.  Tank is  back in the car, filled to the brim, and no leakage yet.


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: abndanger
Date Posted: Dec/23/2009 at 4:22am
Awesome project Ron. Great pictures with intense detail of your project. Many years ago I converted a 84 Dodge Ram Charger over to EFI. It worked well because I was tired of the carburation problems.
 
The only thing you might ought to try and do is to re-locate your coolant temp sensor before the thermostat. Most EFI PCM's need to see engine temp as it is heating up. This will regulate the fuel delivery enrichment, because it (the PCM) thinks its a COLD engine and will run richer. It is in what we call (open loop). Because you have the coolant temp mount after the thermostat and once the thermostat opens up it goes into (closed loop) all of a sudden. Could explain your stubble. Does the Fast and Easy kit computer provide and data readings?
 
Great job and keep us posted as to your progess. Gotta Love modern technology.
 
Bob


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" LIVING THE AMX DREAM"
1973 AMX Javelin Pierre Cardin
1973 AMX Javelin Barnfind "Wifes"


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Dec/23/2009 at 6:50am
Originally posted by whizkidder whizkidder wrote:

Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

a soldering copper involves NO flame near the tank at all.
There's pictures of my doing my tank on my rear suspension project thread......
If you were closer, I'd bring them and come take care of it.....
 
Duh -- I must have been brain-dead when I replied earlier -- It didn't occur to me what you were talking about until long after I posted.  Wish I had a copper... would have helped.  However, the JB seems to have done the trick.  Tank is  back in the car, filled to the brim, and no leakage yet.


LOL - if I'd wanted bodily harm to come to you I'd have suggested some oxidizer around the filler and then take a rosebud on your O/A torch and go for it!  Wink


-------------


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Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/23/2009 at 7:08am
Originally posted by slownugly slownugly wrote:

do you have any pics of the totally finished engine bay? i would love to see them thanks.
 
Headed out for Christmas with the Grandkids -- so will be Sunday or Monday before I can get you a picture of the final appearance.
 
Originally posted by abndanger abndanger wrote:

  The only thing you might ought to try and do is to re-locate your coolant temp sensor before the thermostat. Most EFI PCM's need to see engine temp as it is heating up. This will regulate the fuel delivery enrichment, because it (the PCM) thinks its a COLD engine and will run richer. It is in what we call (open loop). Because you have the coolant temp mount after the thermostat and once the thermostat opens up it goes into (closed loop) all of a sudden. Could explain your stubble. Does the Fast and Easy kit computer provide and data readings?
 
I knew the Thermostat housing location would be less than ideal, but there was no available 3/8 NPT pipe thread bung in the stock manifold, so I drilled a hole in the thermostat, and positioned the hole directly below the temp sensor so as to give it a heat signal during warm-up (see picts).  During warm-up the CTS display on the handheld controller does a nice job of showing the gradual rise in temp, so I think the hole in the thermostat has largely mitigated the issue of CTS location.
 
The hand-held controller gives live data readouts for RPM, AF Ratio (both actual and compared to the current target ratio), O2 sensor operation and current % fuel correction to current fuel map, MAP sensor, calculated load, coolant temp, throttle position, idle air controller motor position, intake air temp, battery voltage, injector duty cycle, and fuel LB/HR.  These are split up across 4 separate screens, so you have to scroll from one screen to another to see them all.  There is also an indicator on all screens that shows when the O2 sensor is operating (closed loop), when the computer is "learning," and a third to indicate the presence of trouble codes.
 
I suspect (but haven't had time to investigate yet) that the combination of EFI and the physical construction of the FAST throttle body are combining to produce more part-throttle vacuum in the lower rpm ranges (and at the ported vacuum connection) than I had with the Holley (some of the "lump" is gone at idle...).  I had dialed in my adjustable vacuum advance can for the carb, and it may now be too soft for the EFI system, allowing too much timing too soon.  May require some adjustments on the can, as well as the springs in the dizzy to get the timing curve where the engine now needs it, based on the change to EFI.


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: cali201
Date Posted: Dec/23/2009 at 11:18am
Ron, looks good, I am impressed.  However you know any EFI conversion needs to be run consistantly for 8-12 months after installation Wink.    So, at great personal sacrifice, I will offer to drive your AMX quite often when you "ship out" for Germany in June.  Just leave me the keys......

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Posted By: needafasterAMX
Date Posted: Dec/23/2009 at 9:59pm
Man, That doesn't have ignition control,Its just fuel only?



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74 AMX, 401
Viper spec T56 6 speed trans
Hydroboost brakes with rear disks from a Avenger
3:73 TG rear,now Trutrac with 3:15
A Turbo is in my future.


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/24/2009 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by needafasterAMX needafasterAMX wrote:

Man, That doesn't have ignition control,Its just fuel only?

 
Fuel only.  If you want timing control, you'll need to go with something like the edelbrock system, for nearly twice the $$$.


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/28/2009 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by slownugly slownugly wrote:

great work, im seriously considering using this setup on one of my gremlins. the cherry on top of the startability/driveability and gas mileage is that this setup is concealable with a factory air cleaner save for some wire looms. do you have any pics of the totally finished engine bay? i would love to see them thanks.





Okay, here are the picts of the final product:











-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/28/2009 at 9:33pm
And here are some pictures after a two-hour drive tonight -- after the main relay in the EFI harness overheated and caught on fire! Luckily, I had my car-show fire extinguisher with me, so the damage was limited to the EFI harness and one other wire (except for the extinguisher power covering EVERYTHING Unhappy).





I will call FAST tomorrow and see what they say, but as the main fuse in the harness is still intact, I can't see how this is anything other than a bad relay or poor connection in the harness. I will post updates as to what they say/way ahead.


EDIT: BTW, the Hagerty Plus roadside assistance was great -- took about 30 minutes for the flatbed wrecker to show up, and he unloaded the car right into my garage. Highly recommended.



-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: cali201
Date Posted: Dec/28/2009 at 10:47pm
that bites Ron, sorry to hear/see this.

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Posted By: slownugly
Date Posted: Dec/29/2009 at 12:03pm
came out very nice under the hood. that relay lighting up really sucks. at least thats all that happened.

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28 model a                  73 gremlin drag car

74 gremlin project

00focus v8 5speed

hot rod rollback
68 american mpg project


Posted By: firecapt321
Date Posted: Dec/29/2009 at 4:51pm
Dang man, hate to see that buddy... glad you had your extinguisher!!!


Posted By: PlazinJavelin
Date Posted: Dec/29/2009 at 6:17pm
Same here.. very happy you were prepared with the extinguisher. Glad the damage was relatively small.
 
.... now Plaz is off to buy two new extinguisher for his vehicles.


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PlazinJavelin
Marlin Wannabe




Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/29/2009 at 6:52pm
Looks really good under the hood... "Can you find the EFI in this pic?"

I agree, had to be a bad relay or wiring harness, or the wrong rating on the relay. Those Bosch type relays are usually rated at 20A, and that's continuous! You can get 30A rated ones. There's nothing in the EFI system that should pull enough to melt a 20A relay. I'm assuming the fuel pump has a separate relay, or is that what the relay powers? Come to think of it, the only other relay that's directly associated with teh EFI system in my Rambler (88 Jeep Renix 4.0L) is the EGR relay. The others are for other things -- AC is one, and yes, there is another that is part of the EFI system... a latch relay, but I don't recall the exact function.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: forest
Date Posted: Dec/29/2009 at 8:11pm
actually an efi pump that is not having its demands met (such as idle or cruise situation, will get pretty hot and get worked the hardest) At an idle, the engine does not want much fuel, and the pump is delivering a set amount of fuel, and that is a LOT, at a high pressure. This needs to get returned to the tank via the FPR, but it will still tax the pump the most at am idle or part throttle cruise.....       just a thought as for the relay.

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setting guys out by car lengths....


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Dec/29/2009 at 10:03pm
The relay in question feeds 12v to the 4 fuel injectors (they are fired by a ground supplied by the ECU), and 12v to the wideband O2 sensor.  It is latched by a switched 12v input from the ignition switch (in my case, I ran a wire from the ignition circuit near the fuse panel -- before the resistance wire -- out to a relay mounted next to the starter selenoid.  That relay fed 12v from battery + directly to the "switched 12v" input  that latched the melted relay).  I did it this way to minimize any electrical "noise" that might otherwise have fed back through the ignition circuit to the EFI computer.
 
The fuel pump is fed from battery plus, thru a 25 amp fuse, and through it's own dedicated relay, so I don't believe it had any bearing on the issue.  The 25 amp fuse also protects the melted relay, and it didn't blow -- go figure.
 
I'm not sure how much a heated wide-band O2 sensor pulls, nor 4 high-impedance fuel injectors at about 20% duty cycle, but a 20 amp relay should have been able to handle it easily.  Leads me to believe that either there was a fault in the relay, or a poor connection in the relay socket that overheated and caused the problem.
 
I sent the ECU, wiring harness, and fuel pump harness (it was partly melted/discolored from the fire also) to FAST today.  They will be closed from Thursday to Sunday, so I probably won't know what they think for at least a week.  Spent part of the evening rinsing the dry chemical off the car, and lengthening the fuel hose from the throttle body to the regulator (as one sharp-eyed forum member noted and called me on it...).
 
On the lighter side, some club members have suggested that I name the car -- Think I will go with "The Blue Flame." Cool
 


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/30/2009 at 7:11pm
Hardly anyone remembers the first Corvette motor -- Chevy's "Blue Flame" I-6 anyway, so you shouldn't get any taunts about naming it after a Chevy six cylinder...

Just a thought -- could be that the relay you put in between the battery and the relay that fried stuck shut. But even so, the other one shouldn't have over loaded and fried. A fuse between the two might be in order when you put the thing back together though!


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Dec/30/2009 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

Hardly anyone remembers the first Corvette motor -- Chevy's "Blue Flame" I-6 anyway, so you shouldn't get any taunts about naming it after a Chevy six cylinder...
Didnt they also use that motor in the 55-57 Chevy too or was it another model?
Dave ---- 


-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Dec/30/2009 at 9:35pm
Unless it was a no name relay, they just don't overheat and nuke.
With a name brand relay, I'd say it was a loose connection at the spade lug on the load side but then only that should have burned up then lost a connection.
If it were a no name and the relay nuked, I'd say the coil wasn't wound correctly (wrong gauge wire or not enough turns) making it more like an intermittent duty cycle in a continuous duty application.



Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Dec/31/2009 at 6:37am
I agree - there are various-duty relays. For that you need a quality continuous duty relay. And good connections........... Ron is spot-on. Of course, he's sort of in that business! LOL

I wonder - was the heat concentrated over that spade, and got hot enough to simply catch the plastics on fire and make it look like the relay did it?
Where was the source............. the plastic is all gone all around that spade, so was that indeed it? Got hot, caught the plastic on fire, spread to the relay cover and burned/melted it off?
I guess the company will tell ya.


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Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Jan/02/2010 at 10:04pm
BTW, I met a local guy this evening at the Scottsdale Pavillions car show who has created his own aftermarket fuel injection called Imagine Injection http://www.imagineinjection.com/ - http://www.imagineinjection.com/ . 
 
 
He had his personal 67 Dart (above) with a 6.1 Chrysler hemi crate engine and his fuel injection system installed and it dyno'd out at 571HP at the rear wheels but still sounded like a relatively smooth running engine.
 
http://www.imagineinjection.com/photogallery.phpimages/hot_rods_by_dean/1933_ford/marks-_33-ford-_fuel_injection.jpg">
 
The above picture is from a 34 Ford hot rod and looks VERY cool to me.
 
I am giving serious thought to asking him if he would be interested in creating a version for an AMC engine.
 
The system on his car in the first picture both looked and sounded GREAT!


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Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/03/2010 at 3:47pm
It looks like all you really need is a Weber intake for an AMC engine. The only one still in production is for the six. Three Webers on the six are hot, three dual EFI units that bolt right on would be awesome! I'm sure some programming is involved -- the site has no details like what controller is used or if a PROM is needed. 

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Frank Swygert


Posted By: TinMan
Date Posted: Jan/03/2010 at 4:59pm
Yeah, I've kinda been wondering how many people have actually bought the http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CP&Product_Code=47-3024&Category_Code=J258 - tripple weber intake from Clifford, I'd really like to see photos of one set up.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/03/2010 at 5:43pm
That's easy! Search for posts by member nosigma. He has posted photos of his 65 or so American convertible with 3x2 Weber setup. It was really intended for drag cars and Jeeps, not a lot of room in the small cars for the air filter. Of course it would be a better fit in Javelins and the big cars since the engine bay in the 65-69 American is just under 29" wide, Javelin and big cars (67+) just over 32". 64-66 big cars are just over 31". That's still only ~1.5" more for an air filter. I've seen the setups in Jeep CJs -- plenty room there! I doubt they sell more than one or two a year though. Wouldn't be hard to make one with plate flanges and angled tubing.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Jan/15/2010 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by whizkidder whizkidder wrote:

The relay in question feeds 12v to the 4 fuel injectors (they are fired by a ground supplied by the ECU), and 12v to the wideband O2 sensor.  It is latched by a switched 12v input from the ignition switch (in my case, I ran a wire from the ignition circuit near the fuse panel -- before the resistance wire -- out to a relay mounted next to the starter selenoid.  That relay fed 12v from battery + directly to the "switched 12v" input  that latched the melted relay).  I did it this way to minimize any electrical "noise" that might otherwise have fed back through the ignition circuit to the EFI computer.
 
The fuel pump is fed from battery plus, thru a 25 amp fuse, and through it's own dedicated relay, so I don't believe it had any bearing on the issue.  The 25 amp fuse also protects the melted relay, and it didn't blow -- go figure.
 
I'm not sure how much a heated wide-band O2 sensor pulls, nor 4 high-impedance fuel injectors at about 20% duty cycle, but a 20 amp relay should have been able to handle it easily.  Leads me to believe that either there was a fault in the relay, or a poor connection in the relay socket that overheated and caused the problem.
 
I sent the ECU, wiring harness, and fuel pump harness (it was partly melted/discolored from the fire also) to FAST today.  They will be closed from Thursday to Sunday, so I probably won't know what they think for at least a week.  Spent part of the evening rinsing the dry chemical off the car, and lengthening the fuel hose from the throttle body to the regulator (as one sharp-eyed forum member noted and called me on it...).
 
On the lighter side, some club members have suggested that I name the car -- Think I will go with "The Blue Flame." Cool
 
 
Back to the project -- After about a week and a half of not much action, the guys at FAST agreed to send me a new harness (2d Day Air, so I could get it before the weekend) at no charge.  They said
they checked out my ECU, and it was okay, so sent it back as well.  Took about three hours after the FEDEX dude dropped it off, and I am once again ready to start the car, but will hold off until tomorrow. 
 
I'm going to spend some time tonight researching the numbers off the two relays (the "main" relay that feeds the injectors and O2 sensor -- that melted, and the other one that feeds the fuel pump).  They look the same on the outside, but have different numbers.  I want to see if I can find the specs (duty cycle, amperage rating, etc.). 
 
Will likely post again tomorrow after I fire it up.  (no pun intended)


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Jan/15/2010 at 7:42pm
Who was the mfr?


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Jan/15/2010 at 8:12pm
The relays turn out to be identical -- apparently, the differing numbers are batch numbers or some such.
 
Tyco V23274-1601-X011.  12V 20amp.  Having a bit of trouble finding a data sheet.  Found one reference to 300,000 cycles, and another to 8.3v max latch voltage.  If that means that the relay will latch with 8.3 or more, that's good.  If it means that the latch voltage shouldn't exceed 8.3, that would be bad.  Still looking.


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Jan/15/2010 at 8:21pm
Latch voltage is the initial connection of the contacts. Next is 2 step. When is it fully seated.

8.3 is the spec. Not saying it didn't but there's no way to know if it left the door "as advertised" either. Like any other product that's up to the production floor folks.


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 8:54pm
Installed the new harnesses last night, and went thru the basic setup this morning. No problems with the startup or warm up. No trouble codes, O2 sensor functioning as expected, and learning check displayed.

HOWEVER, after warm up (about 10-15 minutes), the same relay that melted before (injectors/O2) was too hot to hold onto. This was with the hood open, relay at least a foot from the manifold, and dangling out in the air by itself.

The fuel pump relay was also warm, but not as hot as the other one.

Doesn't seem right to me. I experimented with the relay off the harness, by simply hooking the latch coil to 12v to see what happened.  After 20 minutes, the relay was warm, but not as hot as when the engine was running.  May have something to do with the underhood temps versus about 55 degrees for the off-harness test.  Checked the current draw on both relays -- one was ~145ma, the other ~155ma.  Figure that's about 2 watts -- surely not enough to heat the relay up to melting point?
 
Any electrical engineers or others out there with an opinion? 


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: needafasterAMX
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 9:14pm
You sure you have a good ground on the 02 .
You could add a relay and separate the 02 from the injectors.
I am a little surprised that  they are drawing both off the same circuit anyways, The 02 is a heater and the injectors are never resting .

If they are firing all the injector at once( one injector circuit) that is probably the problem.
You have 4 injector on that throttle body , right. If so , do you know if they are low Z or high Z injectors.


-------------
74 AMX, 401
Viper spec T56 6 speed trans
Hydroboost brakes with rear disks from a Avenger
3:73 TG rear,now Trutrac with 3:15
A Turbo is in my future.


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 9:19pm
The fuel pump itself can pull up to 10 amps and add the ijectors and such it can reach 20 amps or more which can over heat the contacts. I would try better relays or separate them, most cheap bosch style are 30 amps. You can get good gm style weather sealed ones that can go as high as 60 amps.

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 9:21pm
Why would it require a separate relay? The O2 heater would draw maybe 2 amps maximum cold and decrease as the temp rises.


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by needafasterAMX needafasterAMX wrote:

You sure you have a good ground on the 02 .
You could add a relay and separate the 02 from the injectors.
I am a little surprised that  they are drawing both off the same circuit anyways, The 02 is a heater and the injectors are never resting .

If they are firing all the injector at once( one injector circuit) that is probably the problem.
You have 4 injector on that throttle body , right. If so , do you know if they are low Z or high Z injectors.
 
The heater circuit in the O2 sensor measures ~3.3 ohms when disconnected -- about 4 amps.  The injectors are high-impedance, but I haven't measured them.  When the relay melted, the Inj Duty Cycle live data was at about 20% (65mph on the freeway).  Idling this morning, it was about 2%. The injectors each have a separate ground coming from the ECU -- if they all fire at the same time, they would have to be connected together inside the ECU, so I doubt they do. 
 
The relays are rated at 20A.  The wiring diagram for the relays shows a resistor across the coil (but still only ~150ma current draw).
 
I'm a bit stumped.


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

The fuel pump itself can pull up to 10 amps and add the ijectors and such it can reach 20 amps or more which can over heat the contacts. I would try better relays or separate them, most cheap bosch style are 30 amps. You can get good gm style weather sealed ones that can go as high as 60 amps.
 
There are already 2 relays -- one for O2/Injectors, the other for the fuel pump.  The one that melted originally was the O2/Inj relay.


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: needafasterAMX
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 9:34pm
I really don't know if the 02 has a controller , It may run wide open at all times and he said the injecter were being fired off the same relay.

It maybe a little to much for the relay over time. and over heats it.


-------------
74 AMX, 401
Viper spec T56 6 speed trans
Hydroboost brakes with rear disks from a Avenger
3:73 TG rear,now Trutrac with 3:15
A Turbo is in my future.


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by whizkidder whizkidder wrote:

Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

The fuel pump itself can pull up to 10 amps and add the ijectors and such it can reach 20 amps or more which can over heat the contacts. I would try better relays or separate them, most cheap bosch style are 30 amps. You can get good gm style weather sealed ones that can go as high as 60 amps.
 
There are already 2 relays -- one for O2/Injectors, the other for the fuel pump.  The one that melted originally was the O2/Inj relay.
 
Not so EZ-EFI is going to owe you a consultation fee by the time you are finished with this adventure.


-------------
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by needafasterAMX needafasterAMX wrote:



It maybe a little to much for the relay over time. and over heats it.


I doubt this is the first kit they've built or sold so it most likely doesn't need re-engineering.
 Is the circuit fused? What amperage? This should give an indication of what amp relay is required.


Posted By: needafasterAMX
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 9:45pm
I would be surprised  if they would have a injector driver for each injector.
I would say one, two at the most, but that really does not matter , what matter is if they all fire at the same time.

sounds like a lot of resistants some were and over heating the relay.


-------------
74 AMX, 401
Viper spec T56 6 speed trans
Hydroboost brakes with rear disks from a Avenger
3:73 TG rear,now Trutrac with 3:15
A Turbo is in my future.


Posted By: needafasterAMX
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 9:54pm
I think the system he has, has not been out very long.

I agree PM , he should not have to re-engineer any thing. just stock up on fire extinguisher and keep sending it back, and someone will figure the problem out sooner or later. 

-------------
74 AMX, 401
Viper spec T56 6 speed trans
Hydroboost brakes with rear disks from a Avenger
3:73 TG rear,now Trutrac with 3:15
A Turbo is in my future.


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 9:59pm
Originally posted by needafasterAMX needafasterAMX wrote:

I think the system he has, has not been out very long.

I agree PM , he should not have to re-engineer any thing. just stock up on fire extinguisher and keep sending it back, and someone will figure the problem out sooner or later. 


Why does it have to be complicated? Why couldn't it be as simple as a poor crimp on a spade lug causing the overheat and melt down?
Is the fuse that didn't blow inferior too?




Posted By: needafasterAMX
Date Posted: Jan/16/2010 at 10:21pm
Didn't they send a new harness , surely couldn't be the harness,
I am suspecting the 02 some how.
maybe it is shorting out/ high resistants under prolonged operating conditions after it gets hot ( that is why I was thinking ,if you separated them , it would be easier to trouble shoot.)

You could disconnect the 02  , but you would have to take it out completely ,or it may get contaminated with no power on it. 

-------------
74 AMX, 401
Viper spec T56 6 speed trans
Hydroboost brakes with rear disks from a Avenger
3:73 TG rear,now Trutrac with 3:15
A Turbo is in my future.


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Jan/17/2010 at 5:09am
The point of highest resistance in the circuit is the one that released the heat and melted down. 


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/17/2010 at 8:29am
PMM probably has the answer here. Any bad/loose connection will cause a rise in resistance and more power to be pulled to overcome that resistance. It has to be something in the injectors or O2 sensor. A marginal injector or connection could be the culprit. Not likely to be the O2 sensor. The heater only works the first few minutes at most (I doubt much more than a minute on a really cold day), and the O2 sensor shouldn't draw much at all. Time to check the resistance in the injectors. Should all be the same. If you find one is higher than the others that's the problem!  A cheap solution for now, however, would be to try a higher rated relay, since 30A are so common. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/17/2010 at 8:51am

02 heater is continuous, but I think it is just a cheap relay. Can you show us how you wired it? You said the 25 amp fuse is feeding the relay but also mentioned the coil resistance of the relay which has nothing to do with the feed wire to the relay.



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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: scott
Date Posted: Jan/17/2010 at 9:12am
Originally posted by whizkidder whizkidder wrote:

 
I sent the ECU, wiring harness, and fuel pump harness (it was partly melted/discolored from the fire also) to FAST today.  They will be closed from Thursday to Sunday, so I probably won't know what they think for at least a week.  Spent part of the evening rinsing the dry chemical off the car, and lengthening the fuel hose from the throttle body to the regulator (as one sharp-eyed forum member noted and called me on it...).
 
On the lighter side, some club members have suggested that I name the car -- Think I will go with "The Blue Flame." Cool
 


I'd be worried about lengthening that fuel hose. I'd want it to be a steel line, rather than a hose. Especially after one fire already. High pressure fuel will really burn well if that hose leaks, or another harness fire melts it.


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Jan/17/2010 at 11:39am
Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

02 heater is continuous, but I think it is just a cheap relay. Can you show us how you wired it? You said the 25 amp fuse is feeding the relay but also mentioned the coil resistance of the relay which has nothing to do with the feed wire to the relay.

 
The power side of both relays is protected by one 25 amp fuse.  The latch side of the O2/injector relay currently isn't protected, but I will do that before I close the hood to drive anywhere.  The Fuel Pump relay's latch is the same circuit as the O2/inj latch (soon to be protected), and is controlled by the ECU which grounds the latch coil on the fuel pump relay to turn the pump on.
 
I did not measure the relay coil resistance, but did measure the current draw through the coil at about 150ma -- since current dissipation is directly related to heat generation.
 
 


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Jan/17/2010 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by whizkidder whizkidder wrote:

I did not measure the relay coil resistance, but did measure the current draw through the coil at about 150ma -- since current dissipation is directly related to heat generation.
 
 

Relay coils will pop well before a fuse. They're wound with either 35 or 36 awg wire (basically hair) depending on application. There's also a 1/4 watt resistor across the coil to prevent a spike from racing back to the electronics.


Posted By: poormansMACHINE
Date Posted: Jan/17/2010 at 5:34pm
I moved your last post so all your info isn't broadcast.
mailbox is clear now.


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/17/2010 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by whizkidder whizkidder wrote:

Originally posted by tsanchez tsanchez wrote:

02 heater is continuous, but I think it is just a cheap relay. Can you show us how you wired it? You said the 25 amp fuse is feeding the relay but also mentioned the coil resistance of the relay which has nothing to do with the feed wire to the relay.

 
The power side of both relays is protected by one 25 amp fuse.  The latch side of the O2/injector relay currently isn't protected, but I will do that before I close the hood to drive anywhere.  The Fuel Pump relay's latch is the same circuit as the O2/inj latch (soon to be protected), and is controlled by the ECU which grounds the latch coil on the fuel pump relay to turn the pump on.
 
I did not measure the relay coil resistance, but did measure the current draw through the coil at about 150ma -- since current dissipation is directly related to heat generation.
 
 
So the amps that go thru the relay is unfused. The coil has nothing to do with what happened it is the contact protion that is unfused. You have an overload in that area that is why I said lets see a wiring diagram of it.

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Jan/17/2010 at 8:26pm
The amps that carry the load (both relays) go through a 25 amp fuse.  The latch circuits were unfused. 
 
The wiring diagram that came in the instructions is so small I have to read it with a magnifying glass, and the print is grainy enough that even then it's hard to make out.  I'm sure a scan would be unreadable here.
 
 


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: tsanchez
Date Posted: Jan/17/2010 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by whizkidder whizkidder wrote:

The amps that carry the load (both relays) go through a 25 amp fuse.  The latch circuits were unfused. 
 
The wiring diagram that came in the instructions is so small I have to read it with a magnifying glass, and the print is grainy enough that even then it's hard to make out.  I'm sure a scan would be unreadable here.
 
 
Ok thought it was the other way around, if the fuse is 25 amps then you have crap for relays.

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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/antonsan/media/jav1_zps87a70dce.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Jan/18/2010 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by whizkidder whizkidder wrote:

The amps that carry the load (both relays) go through a 25 amp fuse.  The latch circuits were unfused. 
 

The wiring diagram that came in the instructions is so small I have to read it with a magnifying glass, and the print is grainy enough that even then it's hard to make out.  I'm sure a scan would be unreadable here.

 

 

 

Okay, checked the impedance on the fuel injectors -- all were 11.3 ohms j(max of about 4 amps draw at 100% duty cycle).  Checked the current draw from the O2 sensor at key on -- less than 2 amps to start, then quickly tapering off to about 1/2 amp.  That leaves about 6 amps or less load on the relay contacts.

 



Pretty sure the problem was either a weak relay or more likely a bad connection in the relay socket.  I'm going to upgrade the relays, and we'll see.
 

For those who were curious, here is the wiring diagram.   Relay that melted is depicted at the lower right.

 

Not shown is the fuel pump relay, which is connected to a separate harness through the "fuel pump controller" plug (but identical to the other one).  The "fuel pump relay" wire is provided to allow you to latch your own relay if you don't use the FAST fuel pump kit - not used on my install).



-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: HURSTSSAMX69
Date Posted: Jan/19/2010 at 3:33pm
Wow Very nice looking . . .

I'm guessing the engine photos the engine on EFI ?

So hadn't anybody of known it in general would have still visually appeared carborated ?

Can this system be use with duel TBI's ?

will it work with more aggressive camshafts ?

Mike


-------------
1953 REO M48 w/w.
1962 GMC C3000.
1966 Rambler Classic.
1969 AMC AMX-390.
1982 Chevy C30 diesel.




Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Jan/19/2010 at 4:01pm
The "final product" pictures are with the EFI installed -- except for the ECU on the inner fender, the fuel pressure regulator (both of which can be easily hidden), and a few "extra" wires at the back of the engine, there is almost no noticeable difference -- especially with the air cleaner on.
 
The computer controller menu has an entry for dual throttle bodies, but you'd need to contact FAST for the details.
 
Since the system relies on a wide-band O2 sensor, my guess is it will work with just about any engine/cam setup.  However, for serious racers, I'm not sure it has all the adjustability you'd want.  For street/strip use, I can't see how you could do much better for the $.
 


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: HURSTSSAMX69
Date Posted: Jan/19/2010 at 4:13pm
I'm not really concerned about drag racing or win the blue ribbon at the car show, I just simply wanted to setup  the car back up like my father had it when it was new.

i told him about the sorta teared up but shrugged it off as it where nothing and said make it your own . .

So figured i would build it to his design so it visually appeared the same but add i little more technology to get  there.

It was 390/4spd that was modified at the dealer with option 19 or code 19 some thing 19 performance parts catalog.

EDIT:
I heard the story a few times, but its been a long while so i don't remember how or where what was done but  it got set up rather nicely . . . I reme,ber looking through the old photo album seeing a bunch of random photos of that car it was sweet . . . I wished i could figured out what happen to them photos i think they where lost when the house caught fire . . .

Mike


-------------
1953 REO M48 w/w.
1962 GMC C3000.
1966 Rambler Classic.
1969 AMC AMX-390.
1982 Chevy C30 diesel.




Posted By: HURSTSSAMX69
Date Posted: Jan/19/2010 at 9:28pm
Thank's for the Info on it working for with duel TBI's, I may have to pick your mind and ask more question's once i get to that part of Project revive fathers car . . .

Mike


-------------
1953 REO M48 w/w.
1962 GMC C3000.
1966 Rambler Classic.
1969 AMC AMX-390.
1982 Chevy C30 diesel.




Posted By: bbgjc
Date Posted: Feb/03/2010 at 9:22pm
Yep, That's the one. As they same in NZ, "TA". I wish they had those tanks available a few years ago.



Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Feb/06/2010 at 8:04pm
Epilogue:
 
Been a few weeks since the harness meltdown and replacement, but with some help and advice from PMM and others, she's back together and all seems to be well.
 
FAST gave me no troubles about replacing the harness and checking out the ECU -- so no issues with their warranty.  Final assessment was a bad crimp on a relay socket terminal.
 
PMM turned me on to a source for some higher capacity (and probably better quality) replacement relays, so have gone with them instead of the ones that came with the new harness.  Weather finally cooperated just enough to allow several longer trips, and no further issues with the relays and/or harness.
 
The FAST throttle body's "ported" vacuum source isn't very (ported).  Sends almost the same signal as the non-ported source below the butterflies.  Maybe something to do with my cam needing a bit more throttle at idle, but my old Holley 750's ported source was zero at idle -- the FAST piece sends about 10".  This forced me to re-think my timing setup, so I went back to a B28 vacuum can I got a while back from Phat348 (which I installed with a cam to limit its travel to about 15 degrees vice 24 for stock can).  I now have about 2.5 degrees initial w/vacuum hose off, and ~17.5 with it connected at idle.  Centrifugal advance is about 28 degrees all in at ~2800 rpm, for a total of just over 30 (and about 45 at highway cruise).  May still play around with a bit more initial, with corresponding reduction in vacuum travel, to bump up the total, but the car really runs good right now, so may just leave it where it is.
 
All in all, this was a really fun project, and except for the freak bad connection, seems to be a quality system.  I would highly recommend it to anyone who is looking to avoid the headaches of dealing with carb tuning.
 
 


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: BassBoat
Date Posted: Feb/07/2010 at 7:00am
Thanks for the update. 
BB



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