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rear end swap 56-66 Classic

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Topic: rear end swap 56-66 Classic
Posted By: junior11
Subject: rear end swap 56-66 Classic
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 8:49am
I am wanting to put in a chevy 350 with 350TH and was wondering what kind of rear end modification I will need to make in order to do so. Photos would be a great help if any one has done this already or can give me an idea what custom work needs to be done in order to make this work correctly.



Replies:
Posted By: Wrambler
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 9:11am
Well, not wanting to push the other forum, but...
If you wander over there under chassis, you will see a topic titled a couple of weekends with a welder...or similar.

   The poster is a member here, but he has not chosen to post the story here, Cry
Anyway, he put ladder bars, etc under his Classic. He should be able to talk you through with any questions as he has recently done it.

  As for your engine choice Twak

It is your car. Have fun!


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Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler
4.0L, 5 speed
2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
2019 Chrysler 300


Posted By: junior11
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 11:26am
do you have a link to the other forum ? What motor would you suggest ?


Posted By: forest
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 11:53am
350/700r4 is what I am doing for a member from massachusets on this forum. His car arrives saturday or sunday.  Ill leave the diff in it for now but may de a swap to a ford 8.8 in the future if his budget allows.

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setting guys out by car lengths....


Posted By: Wrambler
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 12:28pm
Forest, You do know that is a Torque tube car?

Jr, as for engine choice, it really is your car. 
I'd stick to an AMC engine. You can use anything that fits in between the fenderwells. even some that don't. This is the Theamcforum so I tend to think that way.

Link

http://amccars.net/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1234043426/14#14


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Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler
4.0L, 5 speed
2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
2019 Chrysler 300


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 9:17pm
You need the ladder bars as in the link above, but you can save a lot of work and money in the spring and shock department by reusing the Rambler pieces. A Ford Explorer 8.8" rear axle fits well, it's roughly the same width and even has disc brakes. Take the spring seats off the Rambler axle and drill the Ford tubes for the 3/8" fine thread bolt holding the seats on the Rambler. Just bolt them on the Ford (or other donor) axle and use the Rambler rear springs. The shock mounts and panhard rod mount bolt off the Rambler too. Hmm... might be riveted on, just grind the heads off and bolt onto the donor axle.

You don't have to use ladder bars, but do have to have something to locate the axle as the torque tube did that before, and it's gone! You can use a universal style four link kit, or anything like that. Ladder bars are the easiest, and ride well on smooth roads as long as they are long enough (at least 30", but the longer the better). "Truck arms" are essentially long ladder bars that extend near the back of the transmission. You can mod a G-body kit if you want (http://www.hotrodstohell.net/truckarm/truckarm_gbody/truckarm_gbody.htm).

This really needs to be made a sticky -- we get "how do I put a different/newer AMC drivetrain in a 56-66 Rambler torque tube car" a lot!! I'm tired of typing the same answers!!


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: Josh
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 10:11pm
My car is a 64 Classic with an AMC V8....it previously had a Mopar Magnum 360. When the previous owner fabbed up the rear axle, they took a Ford 9 inch, made some mounts off the inside of the framerails for the ladder bars, and welded the perches on the 9 inch for the original Rambler springs, shocks and panhard bar. Pretty straight forward and seems to work.
 
I don't want to hijack the thread, but I feel this is important to mention as this doesnt seem to be very easy to find info for someone interested:
 
 As far as mounting a later model engine...the AMC 290/304/343/360/390/401 will bolt right in. You just need a big body V8 crossmember and mounts from a Javelin, AMX etc..NOT the small body Gremlin/Hornet crossmember. You also need the bolts w/cammed washers to adjust the lower control arms, the Rambler crossmember doesn't have them, they are just normal bolts w/washers. The car isn't running yet (I've been too busy to work on it lately) but the engine seems to be positioned correctly in the engine compartment, looks like it could've came from the factory.


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‘66 Marlin, 327/M10
‘70 Rebel Machine, 390/M12
‘74 Javelin AMX, 401/727
‘80 Concord DL, 258/904
‘98 Cherokee, 4.0/AW4


Posted By: Peter Marano
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 10:20pm
Use a different solution!  Use a Firebird or Camaro rear axle they have a torque tube like link.  Use the GM transmission. Use the GM engine, no don't use that! 

Bolt a link onto the donor axle.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 6:25am
The "torque link" solution will work, and the Camaro/Firebird axle should be about the right width, you just end up with GM pattern wheels on the back and AMC/Ford/Chryco pattern on the front. That's not really a big deal, you can buy two pairs of the same wheel with the different patterns.

I have that on mine with a Jaguar IRS. I use dual pattern Weld Drag Lite wheels, but even that's not necessary, except for the spare. The Jag IRS uses the old full size Chevy 5x4.75" lug pattern (standard AMC is 5x4.5"),  and the Camaro/Firebird does also (as well as trucks, Corvettes,  and up to 88 full size rear drive Chevys). Right now I just carry a Cherokee compact spare, so I'd have to change two tires if I get a flat on the back -- change a front tire, then swap that front one to the back. A hassle, but haven't had to do it in five years (knock on wood!). If you keep your tires up flats aren't that common any more. I have been thinking I should just buy a skinny Drag Lite and stick a narrow regular tire on it (such as drag cars use for the front) and make my own "space saver" spare with the correct dual bolt pattern. Been thinking that for five years now...

Great tip on the engine mounting Josh! I forgot that the big AMC crossmember bolts right in. That would be Javelin as well as Rebel/Matador and Ambassador.

A Chevy SBC will bolt to the GEN-1 V-8 mounting perches if 60s Chevy truck mounts with a single stud on the bottom are used. I forget if new holes for the studs have to be drilled. Other small blocks should fit also.

I know we don't really like "foreign" engines in our AMCs, but there will always be some who want to do it, and sometimes for good reason. Best reason I ever heard was from a fellow who drag raced an AMX -- he wanted to preserve the original 390 for restoration of the car when he tired of racing. He wasn't worried about blowing dime-a-dozen SBCs, didn't wnat to damage his 390!


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: amcramblermarlin
Date Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 12:46am
I think among the main reasons new AMC enthusiasts want to swap out the AMC engine and drivetrain is caused by bad information; they think the engine and drivetrain do not have good potential (bad information!)

The stock AMC torque tube drive system offers excellent traction; the torque tube acts as a very long ladder bar which attaches very near to the car's center of gravity (genius) and also offers the best road noise and vibration  isolation having only one bushed body mount; the panhard rod.

If your car is a six cylinder, it will be the new AMC six which has plenty (tons of) hop up parts to turn it into a racing engine. If you want more potential, you can swap in (bolt in) a V8 BW M8-10 auto trans, or even adapt a BW M11 or 12 with vacuum kickdown, to install a Rambler V8 (and get that crossmember with the engine) or use any '66- 72 V8 bellhousing as an adapter to install a later AMC V8

Ford purchased (finally) the rights to manufacture the BW M8-12 auto transmission (which goes back in history to the story of Studebaker Detroit Gear DG 200 and DG 250 four speed lock up automatic transmission designed in '49/'50) starting around '67, and made a few changes to it then re-named it "FMX". Ford continued to use the FMX thru '78 in trucks? The FMX is another trans swap candidate then and should have the same bolt patterns as the BW M8-12 used in AMC products... and the the other plausible interchanges, such as high stall torque converter shift kit etc. but the AMC BWs can be tuned to shift firm if you know you're doing

insightful in my opinion, it seems new AMC enthusiasts tend to want to apply what they've seen done on other cars, but is not always the best thing to do

As a hard core AMC enthusiast, I difficult for me to really like having any other type of car, and I might be one of the first to take on the argument that AMC engines were better than their competitors, tit for tat.

Another aspect of the AMC torque tube drive system is it relates to a time in auto history when concepts of using the major drivetrain components for crash safety were explored, and the T shape helps to make a skeleton structure under the passenger compartment to keep it from crushing in the event of an extreme rear end impact... and Rambler was big on safety... this was especially important for a unibody car in a world of body on frame cars... about the time AMC quit using it, was about the time GM, Ford and Chrysler began making unibody (intermediate and compact) cars during the early and mid sixties

If there is no way of convincing a person to keep their original drivetrain, and they must swap out the torque tube system so they can get silly wheelspin like other cars have, then I'd say to look into a Jeep Gran Cherokee rear axle as it does have extra large isolation bushings, a four arm long and short mounting with panhard rod, coil springs, & low drag parking brake rear discs, but I don't know the track dimension (leaf spring rear is not recommended by certain older AMC enthusiasts saying Classic/Marlin unibody is not strong enough for rear leaf mounts)




Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 7:53am
Saying the Classic/Marlin/Ambo body isn't strong enough for leaf spring mounts is a real big joke! I know you're not saying it, but the 64-69 American body is virtually the same body as the big car, just a bit shorter and narrower. There are no reinforcements for the leaf spring mounts on the American except for the spring brackets themselves. The shackle bolts run through the rear "frame" rail with nothing more than a piece of tubing inside to prevent crushing the rail.

One minor correction though. In the late 40s/early 50s, Studebaker was working with Borg Warner on auto trans development (the only reference I could find for the DG-250 trans says it was a BW, but might be incorrect). Ford joined the two in the early 50s, Stude dropped out shortly after due to financial troubles. All the early Ford auto trannies (Cruise-O-Matic/Ford-O-Matic/Merc-O-Matic, etc.) are BW derivatives. Ford made their own cases and valve bodies, but most of the internal components will interchange. Wear parts will for sure, some hard parts do, though Ford seems to have changed some fo the bearing and component sizes. Hard to say what wiull and won't interchange. So Ford already had rights to the trans design when the FMX came out. The FMX was the last of the BW design based trannys. There are some similarities in the C-4 and C-6, but no parts interchange and they are obviously different designs.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: Wrambler
Date Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

Saying the Classic/Marlin/Ambo body isn't strong enough for leaf spring mounts is a real big joke! I know you're not saying it, but the 64-69 American body is virtually the same body as the big car, just a bit shorter and narrower. There are no reinforcements for the leaf spring mounts on the American except for the spring brackets themselves. The shackle bolts run through the rear "frame" rail with nothing more than a piece of tubing inside to prevent crushing the rail.

Frank, NIT, There is NO SLEEVE in the 64-69 American Frame rail!  Thye use a shouldered bolt and only really use the outer section of unit frame and the pocket to secure the spring.
 
  I agree with you, The idea the Classic/Marlin/Ambassador body if not strong enough to handle leafs is not correct.   There is no reason they would not work with proper care and installation.
  I would not do so, I think if I was to go to this much work I would go as we have talked about to truck arms.  Wish I had the wherewithall to have you do them as we had talked about.  The truck arms will place the drive point and load right about where it is with the Torque tube!  Done right they would leave one with the same drive NVH etc,  sweet...


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Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler
4.0L, 5 speed
2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
2019 Chrysler 300


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 1:36pm
I should have said that the real issue is the length of the springs and that the gas tank filler on the 63-66 Classic/Ambo/Marlin is on the left side. The filler tube would be right between the "frame" rail and leaf spring. The springs have to be pretty short also. Mustang II and of course American (and likely Gremlin/Hornet et. al.) fit, but full size car leafs are all too long. I wouldn't want to have the possibility of crushing the filler tube, and the torque tube is in all ways superior to leaf springs. Why replace it with something inferior? 

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Frank Swygert


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by amcramblermarlin amcramblermarlin wrote:




Ford purchased (finally) the rights to manufacture the BW M8-12 auto transmission (which goes back in history to the story of Studebaker Detroit Gear DG 200 and DG 250 four speed lock up automatic transmission designed in '49/'50) starting around '67, and made a few changes to it then re-named it "FMX". Ford continued to use the FMX thru '78 in trucks? The FMX is another trans swap candidate then and should have the same bolt patterns as the BW M8-12 used in AMC products... and the the other plausible interchanges, such as high stall torque converter shift kit etc. but the AMC BWs can be tuned to shift firm if you know you're doing
You are joking.    Ford did not buy the rights......................the "FMX" is the last version of the Ford cast iron cruise-o-matic. and NONE of the parts interchange either.  and I guess you have been reading this incorrect information as usual...............Confused


Posted By: amcguru
Date Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 3:36pm

Aww, come on...if it's on the internet it MUST be true!



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NAMDRA #3646

"I believe the best social program is a job" ~ Ronald Reagan


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by amcguru amcguru wrote:

Aww, come on...if it's on the internet it MUST be true!

LOL


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 6:59pm
This sticky is supposed to be only on swapping rear axles in torque tube cars! It's got out of hand and way off topic.

I started a new topic in the transmission section on the BW/Ford transmission issue that many will like. I originally posted here, then thought the better of it and moved my reply to a new topic.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: beepbop
Date Posted: Mar/03/2010 at 9:56pm
ClapClapClapClap


Posted By: Wrambler
Date Posted: Sep/13/2010 at 9:38am
Update on leaf spring use or hitch mounting.
I noticed yesterday as I was cleaning and building crap that on the outerside of the rear unibody "frame" rails there is a 3/16" inch by 3" inch plate welded into the rail from the factory. It runs from the crossmember in front of the fuel tank to the rear bumper mount.  The plate does not quite go to that front of the gas tank cross member it stops about an 1" or so short of it, still plenty long though.

   If one was to want a heavy duty hitch on their Ambo or Classic it would be a good idea to fasten it either through the rails with a sleeve to clamp to that rail or run the hitch over to the outside of the rails.


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Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler
4.0L, 5 speed
2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
2019 Chrysler 300


Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: Nov/02/2010 at 7:58pm
If you want to use ladder bars with a conventional driveshaft to replace the torque tube in a 1964 Classic, where do you attach the front of the ladder bars? I don't see anything with any strength to weld to. The rear frame section ends about 2 feet in front of the axle, and there is just belly pan up to the transmission cross member. I would appreciate any info and photos.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Nov/03/2010 at 8:51am
The very front of the lift pads is closer to three feet from the axle center line. You'd need to weld a crossmember across the floor and tie it into the front of the lift pads/rear rails and/or the inner rocker (side sill) edges. The crossmember would have a "hump" in the center for the driveshaft, mounted down to serve as a rear driveshaft loop. 
http://www.jegs.com/i/Competition-Engineering/247/2019/10002/-1?parentProductId=743909

Scroll down to the 32 and 34 Ford kits on this page:
http://www.morfabcustoms.com/catalog/Catalog2005.html
I really like the long ladder bars, but the crossmember may not be long enough to span between the inner rockers on the 63-66 big Rambler (60-7/32") -- call and see if they make a wider one or just weld on extensions. An alternative would be to make "subframe" connectors and mount the ladder bar crossmember on them.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: Nov/03/2010 at 8:21pm
Thank you for the info.


Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: Nov/05/2010 at 6:37pm
The ladder bars on the morfabcustoms.com site has the ladder bars runing at an angle toward the the center of the car. Is the angle important? If so what is the angle. I believe it was said that the longer the bars the better. I'm considering making my own bars instead of buying them to get them longer. I'm hearing that urethane rod ends are better for the street, at least in the front. Does anyone know of a good source for rod ends etc.   


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Nov/05/2010 at 7:16pm
The angle isn't important. The angled bars let the rear axle flex more from side to side. Parallel bars would be stiffer. You can find all the rod ends and other odd bits and pieces you'd ever want at www.speedwaymotors.com. YES -- use urethane rod ends in the front. I'd use the same ends used for four link bars, 1/2" bolt hole, 5/8" or 3/4" threads into the rods. Spherical rod ends wear out too fast, even when you get the little rubber seals for them. If you only drive the car occasionally it might be okay to replace rod ends every 3-5 years. From rodders I've talked to you're lucky if the spherical ends last 8-10K miles before they are too loose to drive -- many got less. So no sphericals for a daily driver!


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: Wrambler
Date Posted: Nov/07/2010 at 9:45am
I bought a pair of RHE ARCA truck arms. $112 shipped for the pair.
They are 51" center to center and are currently setup for monoballs, which I also figure will have a short street life. I am either going to go with them and see how long they last or I have a link some posted here for universal poly bushings that has sizes that will fit in the monoball end bore.

For angle, I plan on one of two options.
One I will pick a crossmember from Hotrodstohell that is wide enough to go unibody rail to rail.
Or use a stock 62-72 chevy truck crossmember. That will place the arms at the angle those years trucks used and it will be all setup for me for the most part.

option two, I will build my own and if doing that I will point the imaginary intersect point at where the current torque tube meets the trans.

If, you decide to build your own as near as a quick measure shows you can achieve bars of up to about 65"s long, which would certainly allow for plenty of twist, however with a 65" long bar you will want to make sure the stock if heavy enough not to bend, yet still have some flex for twist.

my measurements were just eyeballed with a tape measure on my 65 Ambassador.


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Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler
4.0L, 5 speed
2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
2019 Chrysler 300


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Nov/07/2010 at 10:43am
A universal ladder bar crossmember should work nicely to start with. But rolling your own is a good solution if you can. Maybe make a crossmember from square tubing with a gap and "bridge" for the driveshaft...


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: cadipacer
Date Posted: Nov/09/2010 at 8:07am
 I did this swap 15 years ago on my 1962 Rambler classic 2 dr  401 2-4bbls  (  selling due to retirement)
 I used ALLLLLLLLLL Rambler/AMC parts...  PM for my  phone ,, we can talk (  have spare rear assy already set up with coils,, panhard brackets,, shock brackets.. less  ring/pin)


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SOLD!/SOLD!78 Pacer wagon w/ 500 cid Cadillac V8, 2:87 spool.

1956 Nash Statesman.PS,PB AC 360 rack & pin.2:56 gears.
1982 Concord 401 4 dr. incognito
former-NAMDRA # 75 AMO 645,NCCA 7980








Posted By: amcron57
Date Posted: Dec/05/2010 at 9:00pm
When swapping out the rear end in a 65/66 Ambassador or Classic, do you have to modify the rear floor pans when using GM truck arms? 


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/06/2010 at 11:10am
Nope. There's room. The truss rods on the torque tube axle are in about the same area the truck arms need. You will need to install a crossmember for the front of the truck arms, unless you mount them all the way up on the trans crossmember. If you do that replace the rubber crossmember mounts. Galvin's and other AMC vendors have repros now. Or make a solid bracket to replace the original rubber mount.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: amcron57
Date Posted: Dec/18/2010 at 5:13pm
Thanks for the information. I'm moving forward with the project and I should have the rear-end installed within a couple of weeks.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/20/2010 at 8:20am
I hope you take some pics during the install and after!! 

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Frank Swygert


Posted By: amcron57
Date Posted: Dec/20/2010 at 3:59pm
Sir, once I figure out how to post pics on here I will certainly post plenty of pics to share with other AMCer's that are considering doing this swap. Thanks for all of your advice! 


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/21/2010 at 12:26pm
see:
http://theamcforum.com/forum/new-posting-images-hosted-on-this-forum_topic8119.html
http://theamcforum.com/forum/guide-to-posting-photos_topic220.html


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: firefly
Date Posted: Dec/23/2010 at 7:42am
I put an 8.8 explorer rearend in my '63 classic using a universal crossmember from summit,just cut it down to the right width. An old pair of Lakewood ladder bars and reused most of the spring perch's and panhard bar from the old rearend. It was much easier than I thought.


Posted By: 59ramblersuper6
Date Posted: Dec/23/2011 at 8:02pm
This is a 55 Nash Ambo with a T-5 and a 302 V8 and Torque Tube. The guy made a simple custom mount. Has anyone ever blown up a AMC TT 15 with a 327/4.0/v8 swap?

How to retain the TT tube and still swap the Motor!







 

This is a 55 Nash Ambo with a T-5 and a 302 V8 and Torque Tube


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Dec/24/2011 at 8:43am
I actually ran an AMC 15 TT setup behind my 4.6L stroker for about 18 months. With 205/70R15 radials it would smoke the one-legger as long as I held he gas down in first gear... did it for 50-60' once! The T-96/OD trans didn't hold up all that well. Stripped the synchronizer out in about 150 miles. After that (and some double clutching to down shift) it worked okay, but I was easy on it. Finally took it out before it broke! With 10-12K on it the gears looked like they had 40-60K on them (starting to show some wear). But the axle held up fine with 260 hp and around 250 ft/lbs of torque.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: AtticusJackal
Date Posted: Feb/26/2012 at 7:16pm
Kinda along these lines, but I love my 327 and torque tube setup, but can't for the life of me find a replacement 80 series Flash-o-matic since I lost reverse in mine. 

I'd really like to do anything I can to keep my current driveline! If anyone who did this swap has a good tranny I'd love to buy it off them. Shocked


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Feb/27/2012 at 5:07am
It's been done, but it's expensive to keep the torque tube. Check the previous posts (just the couple above). If there is a pill-a-part type yard in your area a Ford 8.8" axle from a Ranger is relatively cheap (under $100 in most cases). It fits, and should work in the big cars with the stock wheels even though it's about 1.5" wider than the stock axle. You can get a GM trans adapter from Gus Averil (averills@silk.net). He can also make the pieces necessary to adapt the torque tube, but expect about a $1000 bill (including shipping) just for the parts (including the trans adapter). To top that off, you need a specific GM output housing (from an Astro or Safari van... 700R4 with specific mount holes in the back, may have been used in other models).

The trans adapter and parts can be purchased without the TT adapter. That will allow any GM auto trans to be bolted up (and with some minor work a manual trans could be used). Cost should be around half (or less). That and the Ranger rear axle with ladder bars is the way I think I'd go, but it's all up to you. If you have an auto behind the 327 now it will likely have 2.87 or 3.15 gears. Both are a bit high for an OD trans -- you need 3.23-3.55 (3.73 wouldn't hurt). See www.therangerstation.com for Ranger axle info. Those gear ranges are available. If you have a stick shift with the 327 it should have a lower axle ratio. If it had OD then it would be perfect!

Trans adapter and parts:


Trans and TT adapter installed on 287:



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Frank Swygert


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Feb/27/2012 at 6:40am
Frank - would you post a detailed "how to" on keeping the torque tube but upgrading transmission to, say, whatever will work...........
Pictures, drawings, these pictures you furnished here are GREAT. It would be either a sticky or moved to the top-tech articles.
Few besides yourself and Rick Jones know about this sort of thing, this is valuable information, IMO.
This is where you really shine.

OH - you won't be left out either 59ramblersuper..... you can contribute, or work with Frank/farna, or anyone who has GOOD sound information on this sort of thing. No hacks, please, nothing with duct tape, bailing wire, knitting needles rubber banded in place. Good reliable SAFE adapters and mods.
This is a common question and deserves to be saved and made easy to find.


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http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com

http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Feb/27/2012 at 11:50am
I'll post a few more pics, but can't really give a lot more details. The transmission adapter is something that has to be laid out just right -- nothing that can be done by the average guy. The torque tube adapter is pretty much the same way. Contact Gus Averil (averills@silk.net) about buying one of the adapter sets if someone wants one (or just the GM trans adapter). He can make them up as ordered, so it will take a few weeks -- maybe a couple months. He doesn't keep any "in stock" and does this in his spare time. He wanted to make a bolt-in kit and managed to do it!

Here are a couple more pics of the torque tube adapter. Remember, this is for a 700R4 out of a 1985-94 Chevy Astro or Pontiac/GMC Safari van (Poncho and GMC both used the same name, it was marketed under both brands from 85-89, just GMC after).  I don't know if the 95-05 model used the same trans mounts or not -- Gus might know.





Here is the adapter and modified BW flexplate on a 287


Here's the flexplate with the attaching spacers



-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Feb/27/2012 at 1:35pm
holey karap, that's really nice stuff. it's great to see people doing new, original work for our old beasts. I'm totally in favor of seeing what billd suggests re: a stick page.

This sort of knowledge snowballs too, this solution might solve half of another that someone can build on.



Posted By: AtticusJackal
Date Posted: Mar/05/2012 at 4:35pm
Oh wow that would be a really nice upgrade to have the overdrive setup!! I should message the guy and see about just getting the trans-to-engine adapter peices and just run a 4-link 8.8 rear. 

Gah, but then I'd have two different bolt patterns. Ick. 


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/05/2012 at 7:10pm
Nope -- the Ford 8.8" rear axle uses the same bolt pattern as AMC -- 5 x 4.5".  You'd only have two bolt patterns if you use a Chevy S-10 rear axle (which also fits pretty good width wise). Or a Jaguar IRS like I have. 

I got around the two bolt patterns by using a dual pattern wheel (Weld Drag Lites). I needed a deep offset to prevent narrowing the Jag IRS. For a spare I bought a 4" wide centered Weld Drag Lite wheel and run a 165/80R15 tire on it (VW Beetle tire... might be 165/75). That gives me a dual pattern mini spare. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: AtticusJackal
Date Posted: Mar/06/2012 at 4:52am
Whaaaat? Even the ranger 8.8 is 5 on 4.5? I'd really love to be able to use my stock wheels since I just bought four new tires! Not to mention the hubcaps look great on the old wagon :)


Posted By: 59ramblersuper6
Date Posted: Mar/25/2012 at 2:18pm
I wanted to show off my build. Feel free to use this in a sticky.

Please pardon my rust as I am lazy and haven't painted anything yet.

Suspension set-up
The Rear I used is a Dana 35 non C-clip, 4.11 open rear from a 89' YJ. Lots of aftermaket support and only 3/4 of an inch narrower than stock.
30in Ladder Bars, mounts and shackle eyes custom made from High mountain hot rods.
Coils springs, track bar, spring mounts, shocks mounts and shocks all stock 1959 rambler.
custom length Driveshaft.

Frame Bracing
Made sub-frame connectors out of 2in box stock running the whole length of the passenger floor and cross braced them with a drive shaft loop. drive shaft loop hangs down to low so cut 1.5 inches out of it. This may have been overkill.

Wheels
I machined a set of 1.25in spacers to make the stock 15in wheels fit over the larger axles shafts.

Brakes
Stock 10in drum 2inch wide YJ brakes. Stock Rambler rubber hose and T fitting to 3/16 brake line. 
mated the stock rambler intermediate e-brake cable to 89' YJ e-brake cables. I used the longer passenger side YJ cable on the driver-side and the YJ intermediate cable on the passenger side to get enough length to meet up with the stock rambler cable. Made the bracket from box stock and welded washers in to fit the cables in place. still doesn't quite work right yet. 
















Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/25/2012 at 3:32pm
Not bad! I tried using a MJ (Comanche) axle once under my Classic and found that it was about 3" too wide. Never thought about using the TJ/YJ (Wrangler) axle. I was under the impression that it was the same as the XJ (Cherokee)and MJ, not narrower. Sounds like the TJ/YJ axle is about the same width as an early Ranger axle. Of course TJ/YJ vehicles are rarely found in most salvage yards. A good source might be the local 4x4 shops though. Many upgrade the axles and have no use for the original D35. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: 59ramblersuper6
Date Posted: Mar/25/2012 at 3:46pm
The Dana 35 is a viable option when building for a re-power. Stock they easily handle the stock 4.0 in the Cherokee You can 250k+ miles of of those easy. Lockers, 1 piece axles a plethora of gear ratios are available. just steer clear of the 1993 models as the spider gears are not available. I had 3 of them just lying around sold all of them for about $125 a piece. The one in the car a guy bought off of me and never picked it up so it was basically free for me. It has 150k on it and will need a set of spider gears (lots of slop in the gears. If I keep my foot out of it should last me a few years. I plan to just upgrade to a locker and 1 piece axles. 


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/25/2012 at 5:07pm
I agree -- it's plenty strong, even for a stock to mild V-8. The XJ/MJ is 3" wider than the stock 63 Classic axle. I used 3.75" backset 7" wheels (0.25" more backset than normal 7") with 205/65R15 tires and they would still scrub if I had any load at all when hitting bumps. With just the driver it was okay, anyone or thing in the back and it would scrub. deeper offset wheels would do the trick, but according to your measurements the TJ/YJ axle fits perfectly at 3" or so narrower than the XJ/MJ.

Yours doesn't have one piece axles? I thought all the 84+ models did!  

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Mar/25/2012 at 9:47pm
From what I can see in the photos, the suspension doesn't allow for rotation of the rear axle, longitudinally. Eg. what happens when you jack up one rear tire but leave the other one on the ground. Or go over a bump with one wheel and not the other, etc.

The original torque tube setup handles that by having the big trunnion rubber joint; some designs use a "wishbone" to the same effect, or Heim joints at *both* ends of the 'ladder bar'.

Without some accomodation, it's gonna break parts for sure.

Maybe the mechanical solution is in there but not visible in the photos.



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/26/2012 at 5:09am
That's the drawback of a ladder bar installation. There isn't much longitudinal rotation, just a little flex in the joints and arms. If you jack up one side of the car it might get an inch off the ground before the other side starts coming up, that's about it. Affects ride too -- if one wheel bumps up much it may as well have been both hitting the bump. As long as the roads are fairly smooth you'll never notice. Luckily most of today's roads are relatively smooth... at least smooth enough.

A mount could be made on the axle to allow more movement -- a pivot or rubber mount instead of welding solid. That would improve ride a bit. At least handling is good -- no need for a rear sway bar! He might want to add a stiff one up front though, rear end will be "tighter" than the front!


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: 59ramblersuper6
Date Posted: Mar/26/2012 at 1:55pm
I guess they should be 1-piece axles I might have been thinking of the two piece axles in the model 20.

TomJ.-
The car rides very well, when the road is rough you certainly can feel it. There isn't much dampening in the steering and there is plenty of "Road feel" in the steering wheel. What should I watch out for that will break with this set up? And would the addition of a shackle (pivot point) up front alleviate the problem?



 


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/26/2012 at 4:37pm
The only thing that you could do to allow a little roll in the rear axle is to hinge the point where the ladder bar is welded to the axle tube. The way I'd go about doing that would be to weld and gusset a piece of tubing to the axle, something with a 3/8" to 1/2" inside diameter. The tubing needs to run at right angles to the axle tube, and be about 4" long. Then you can weld tabs going up on the ladder bars so that the tubing fits between the tabs. The tabs need to have a hole drilled in them the same as the ID of the tubing. Then run a long bolt through the tabs and tubing. Grease the bolt before inserting, but I don't think it will move enough to worry about a grease fitting -- or rather it won't move enough to get hot and "melt" the grease out. If you're concerned pull the bolt every three years or so and grease it. If the tubing welded to the axle is 4" long there shouldn't be enough side to side movement to warrant a panhard rod -- no more than with the rigidly welded on ladder bars.

I really don't think you'll get enough movement to break anything. Like all home welded projects inspect the welds at least yearly, though I like to do it every six months.

That shackle in front is scary!! There's no way something like that would work on your car -- the front pivot can't move. My guess is that shackled ladder bar is on a leaf spring vehicle, that's the only thing that makes any sense. The axle moves back and forth slightly as the axle bounces with leaf springs. The only purpose of the ladder bar is to prevent the axle from twisting. That one is obviously on a 4x4 (I think that's a transfer case I see!). The ladder bars will prevent the axle from twisting much in that installation also -- not a good rock crawler!


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: 59ramblersuper6
Date Posted: Mar/27/2012 at 11:36pm
The Ladder bars are not welded to the Axle there are 4 16mm bolts that mate the axle to the ladder bars. The ladder bars don't sit flush against the axle either there is some room I'm guessing now, to provide the necessary "flex" that is needed. I did retain the stock Pan hard rod from the torque-tube rear, I just installed new rubber bushings tonight. With out the pan hard bar the old Touque tube would swing all over the place it was all that held it in the right spot. One the mount welds broke on the Pan hard bar right after I got it on the road. In the DMV inspection lane no less. You can feel a real difference with out it, the rear moves around in some real scary ways.    


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/28/2012 at 4:29pm
With the ladder bars the axle won't move too much side to side. With the stock torque tube you're lucky not to have slide the car right off the axle with the panhard rod broken! I guess the tires in the wheel wells saved you... 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: 59ramblersuper6
Date Posted: Mar/28/2012 at 10:37pm
The Smaller of the two bolts that mount the pan-hard bar to the axle snapped a poor Tack weld that had been missed when I had the rear suspension professionally welded together by a Buddie who is a welder by trade. If It had happened when the TT tube was in I would have been in real trouble.

I'm going do some investigation and see if a hinge point is a needed improvement. I was thinking perhaps of using a smaller bolt through a bronze or mild steel sleeve where the axle mounts. (this may make more trouble though.)  I've been eying up the front end of my dads XJ as a point of reference. 


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Mar/28/2012 at 10:46pm
well, it's a design issue, not a construction issue. If you strengthen something it'll just transfer twisting forces somewhere else.

Whether any of this is a problem will likely depend on what you do. If it's a daily driver, my guess is within a year or less you'll find out plenty what breaks. If it's a sunday driver, might be fine for ever. trailered dragstrip car? that's what that design is for :-)



-------------
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Mar/29/2012 at 9:07am
There have been a few people running this type setup on the street for years. It works fine on reasonably smooth roads, rides really rough on rough roads.

The hinge point would be best, but you could use a rubber bushing on the bolts to the axle. You will need longer bolts, and to drill the hole in one of the parts (either the axle mount or the ladder bar) one size bigger (say 7/16" if the bolts is 3/8"). Then put a rubber bushing (a sway bar end link bushing should do nicely) between the axle and ladder bar and on the other side of the larger hole. The new bolts will have to pass through both bushings, of course. That would allow a degree of twisting movement and should improve ride and reduce stress on parts. At this point that's probably the easiest way to modify what you have, if you wish to do so at all.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: 59ramblersuper6
Date Posted: Mar/29/2012 at 2:09pm
Cool. thanks Tom and Frank I appreciate you input on my project. What your describing is along the lines of what I was thinking. I'll be looking into adding the hinge point first but the rubber bushing method seems like a very simple solution.    


Posted By: AtticusJackal
Date Posted: Apr/16/2012 at 7:59am
I attempted to contact the guy that makes those amazing adapter plates for the 327-to-TH700 application, no response. :c Possible dead email account?

Although Ideally I'd try to just find another BW transmission and put that in, keeping the original drivetrain setup but no luck in a few months sourcing one!


Posted By: AtticusJackal
Date Posted: Apr/20/2012 at 3:24am
Alrighty, good deal. I was able to get in contact with Gus. Adapter plate on the way!


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: May/30/2012 at 3:06am
I have a 59 Rambler Super that I'm looking to do a rear end swap with a ford 8 inch from a 67 Fairlane. Is it possible to keep the torque tube if the driveline is customized and forego the installation of ladderbars?


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/30/2012 at 8:28am
No, it's not possible to use an open style rear end with the torque tube. The torque tube has a flange on the axle end that bolts directly to the axle housing. The housing must be made for the flange.

That said, you can install a "torque arm" on the 8" axle. In simple form, you would need something like this: www.freepatentsonline.com/6793227-0-large.jpg

Unfortunately there are no inexpensive kits. It's much cheaper to buy a universal three or four link kit and install that -- some welding required, but you can modify the ends so they bolt in. If you can weld it wouldn't be terribly difficult to fabricate one. Basically all you're doing is making a rigid arm that bolts near the center of the differential and goes forward parallel to the driveshaft, then connects to the body. I would use a piece of 3/4" or 1" tubing with a screw in polyurethane or rubber bushed rod end with a bracket welded to the transmission crossmember. That long length of tubing isn't stiff enough by itself! That would be the main section of a long truss type ladder bar. So you'd essentially be running a single ladder bar in the center (well, offset to one side of the driveshaft -- I'd make that the passenger side since the six exhaust and all trans linkage is on the driver's side). You will also need at least one truss rod on the passenger side to make the torque arm rigid -- or use a pair of lower arms like the 3rd gen Camaros (more on that below).

There is a cheaper way to do this though. The 82-92 (3rd generation) Camaro and Firebird used a torque arm suspension. The rear tread is 60.6", rear tread of the 63-66 Classic/Ambo/Marlin is 57.5"  -- a 3" difference. You could use one of those rear axles, but would need wheels with at least another inch of back spacing (typical wheels are centered -- 7" has 3.5" of back spacing -- you'd need a 7" wheel with 4.5" back spacing). That design uses lower arms near the ends of the axle and the torque arm just slides in a bushing. I don't know if that arm is strong enough to take all the torque from the axle if the forward end was modified for a bushing that would hole the axle in place as well as keep it from rolling. Would be easy enough to weld a piece of tubing threaded for a large rod end to the forward end if it is. Otherwise you'd need the lower arms on each side.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/30/2012 at 9:23am
I'm going to make a bolt-in suspension for the 56-66 big cars this summer. Don't know exactly what I'm going to do yet. If someone wants one and has some ideas I'll fabricate it for free -- just pay for the materials and shipping. Or bring your car to my shop here in South Carolina and I'll even install it for free. I have to talk to a friend about picking up a 65 Ambassador parts car first. Except for the wheelbase all the 56-66 cars are the same, and the wheelbase doesn't affect the rear suspension -- the wheelbase extensions for the Ambos is added in front of the firewall, everything from the firewall back is the same.

What do most people want though? I'm not going to use ladder bars. A "truck arm" kit using a 93- Ranger axle is the first choice, I think. The torque arm might be a good way to go though. I could do a three or four link kit as well, but those would be harder to make as strictly bolt-ins. My plan is to use the original springs, seats, and panhard rod, though those pieces can be fabricated as well.

Looking for bolt-on four link kits (the cheap ones are all weld-on) led me to this:
http://www.kplinks.com/product.php?productid=339&cat=48&bestseller=Y
Some companies make these for the Ranger, would need different front brackets to bolt to the Rambler body of course. I'm thinking something along the lines of a four link kit like this for a full-size Chevy pickup:
http://www.kplinks.com/product.php?productid=146
Or maybe better yet something similar to this (without the air bags in the rear, if you want bags they would replace the coil springs):
http://www.jegs.com/photos/0/029/029-airbarprop.jpg

The torque arm or truck arm design might be better suited for the Rambler body though, since those are somewhat similar to the original torque tube. I could just make the body brackets for one of those kits...

This is something I've considered doing for years!! If the Jag axle had needed a lot of work (like I'd ruined the gears...) I'd be doing it for my car this summer. All depends on getting that 65 Ambo though...  Interested in anyone's thoughts or ideas.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: May/30/2012 at 4:21pm
Yeah, as soon as I posted my query I realized the flange issue on the original rearend. I'm thinkin of doing a ladderbar setup similar to some discussed on this thread, as it seems the easiest and most cost effective (I'm a student and gotta pinch pennies where I can). Unless I'm able to find an orginal axleshaft in the mean time. Had my driver's side axle snap on me about a month or so after buyin the car last winter and she's been on jackstands ever since. A rearend swap has been an idea of desparation rather then desire....
 
 


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/30/2012 at 5:29pm
I'm sure someone will have an axle shaft they can send you. That will cost a lot less than swapping the axle out! 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Wrambler
Date Posted: May/30/2012 at 6:51pm
If the axle from a 65 AMC 20 would work I can help him out.
I suspect it is a 15 he is dealing with?


-------------
Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler
4.0L, 5 speed
2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
2019 Chrysler 300


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: May/30/2012 at 7:29pm
@ Wrambler:
From what I've gathered, the 59 Super axle's were quite particular. I have the 16 spline, tapered end type axle. If I used another axle type I'd have to swap the whole rear end....



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: May/31/2012 at 8:39am
Not necessarily. In the 58-60 range AMC used two different axle suppliers and apparently didn't specify the number of splines on the inside end. Outside end and hubs are the same, but the inside end may be splined differently. I've never run into the problem, but others have. I'm assuming the 16 spline tapered end is on the inside? We also need to know if it's a six cylinder or V-8 car (AMC 15 or AMC 20 axle -- 15 has a fill plug in the cover, 20 does not). 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Wrambler
Date Posted: May/31/2012 at 10:27am
I have to open the one up that is my field as it is a twingrip and I don't know how much water may have gotten in it. I've got my fingers crossed it is a 3:15 and all is good.

I'd be willing to sell it but shipping would be murder for the whole rear.

I'm still trying to cypher on what rear axle to use in the convertible as it will not get put together with the torque tube. It will get a 327 4bbl, Turbo 400 and truck armed rear. I caught a slow spell on ebay and scored two Nascar arms for less than $100 for the pair including shipping!


-------------
Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler
4.0L, 5 speed
2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
2019 Chrysler 300


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: May/31/2012 at 1:38pm
I have a the six cylinder. Pretty sure I have the 3:15. And it must be the 15 as the cover has a fill plug. I wouldn't really need the whole rearend, just the axle shaft(s).

BTW, seriously, thank both you guys! Ugh, would've saved myself weeks of headaches if I'd have found this forum a couple months ago!


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/01/2012 at 3:36pm
59 six would be an AMC 15. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: Jun/01/2012 at 4:39pm
Yeah, that's pretty much what all things have pointed to. Hopefully Wrambler gets back to me with good news. We're just gettin into our good weather up here in Oregon and it's breakin my heart that my baby is still on jackstands:-(


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/02/2012 at 5:44am
There's a club up there that can help you find an axle. Rose City Rambler Club.
http://www.amcrc.com/RC/index.html
Mark in on the other coast, and has an AMC 20 axle -- you need an AMC 15.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: Jun/08/2012 at 12:56am
Keeping my AMC 15 housing, is it possible to swap out the carrier and use different axles. I'm still having a hard time finding a replacement for the original....


Posted By: Josh
Date Posted: Jun/08/2012 at 7:48am
Kinda expensive, but it's probably possible that you could have Moser or somebody make you custom axle shafts for it.

-------------
‘66 Marlin, 327/M10
‘70 Rebel Machine, 390/M12
‘74 Javelin AMX, 401/727
‘80 Concord DL, 258/904
‘98 Cherokee, 4.0/AW4


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Jun/08/2012 at 9:17am
In a 64 Classic many years ago I took out an AMC 15 and put in a 20. Both had 9" brakes and I encountered no problems. But I don't know if a 59 and a 64 are interchangeable. I've since put one in with 10" brakes so will need to get rid of the one with 9" brakes. Sad to do it as IIRC I had just spent $100 a piece for new drums.
There's a guy A.M. Campbell in Vancouver who took over from a New Zealander (Norgra Parts) who may have what you need. Can't find his number but not that far from Oregon.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/08/2012 at 9:34am
In the late 50s AMC used two different suppliers, and the axle shaft splines to the differential are different. THAT is the problem. Moser can indeed make a one-piece axle hub for you, about $300 for a pair. You can change the differential along with both axles and keep your housing, but then you have to set up the pinion gear depth to match the ring gear or you'll quickly wear the gears and create a howling sound. So it's not a simple bolt-in. The ring and pinion must be a matched set also. You'd be better off to change the entire rear axle. The 63-66 Classic axle should fit as well as 56-62 big Rambler axles. You will have to swap over the torque tube if you use a 62-66 axle. I'm pretty sure the splines on the pinion gears are all the same for interchangeability, AMC just neglected to specify the splines for the inner axle shaft ends. I'm fairly certain the hub ends are all the same. My guess is they figured the inner end wouldn't matter, the hub and torque tubes are the things that sometimes get replaced, and dealers could get the correct axle shaft for warranty work easy enough -- it's just not so easy 44 years later.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: Jun/09/2012 at 11:50pm
Couldn't find any info on AM Campbell, but through the BC AMC club's site I found a good list of parts vendors. Gonna look there and contact Moser as well.
Farna-So the torque tubes were used up to 66?


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/10/2012 at 1:44pm
YES, only in big cars (Ambassador/Classic/Marlin... and 66 only Rebel, which was just a fancy Classic hardtop). The 63-66 TT is different than the 56-61. 62 is sort of up in the air -- it appears to be different from the earlier one, sort of like the 63-66 but with a different shaped front tube/transmission connection. Late model 62s may have the same connection as 63-66 models. The AMC 20 used behind V-8s and 232 sixes is the same no matter what the tube/trans connection is like. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: Jun/10/2012 at 2:38pm
I definitely want to retain as much of my car's original features as possible. My car is survivor in impecible shape. She fires right up and cruises down the highway quite nicely. As for hot rodding it, maybe down the road I'll add beef up the motor/trans, or do a swap for a period correct V8, but for now my 196 runs like a champ and gets decent gas mileage to boot!


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/11/2012 at 9:37am
Just torque that head at regular intervals (every 2-3 years, or every 10-12K miles, which ever come first!) and that 196 will keep chugging along for many more years. 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: RamblinMan
Date Posted: Jun/11/2012 at 1:00pm
Been gone awhile. The ladder bar conversion is pretty straight forward (no pun intended). It is however, a little noisy and rough. I used urethane bushings at the front and that made it quieter, but it's still ladder bars.
 
Here are some pics:
 
 
 
I did it a few years ago. I was in a wreck with it about a year ago and damaged the RR subframe rolling it in a bit. I have straightened the chassis, but got sidelined restomodding a classic pickup for my daughter.
 
I'm about ready to get back on my 65 Classic. I'm going to mini-tub it so I can use bigger tires and I'm using the same ladder bars BUT I'm moving them in 2" on each side and I'm using urethane bushings EVERYWHERE in the suspension.
 
I'm using big urethane joints from Ballistic Fabrication. Their website is down and I think they *may* have gone out of business.  Here are the joints I'm using: http://www.hellotrade.com/ballistic-fabrication/forged-poly-bushing.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.hellotrade.com/ballistic-fabrication/forged-poly-bushing.html
 
I'm also going from a Ford double-ribbed 8" posi rearend (from a V8 Maverick) with 3.55 gears to a Ford 8.8 Exploder 3.73 ratio rearend that has been shortened 3" on the driver's side (this centers the pinion AND makes it about the same width as the original AMC 20 torque-tube rearend.
 
 
I'm running a solid-cammed 401 that makes pretty big power for a street car and I need more traction. That's the reason for the mini-tub and tires.


-------------
The Right Reverend of Blessed Acceleration


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/11/2012 at 2:46pm
You can get RUBBER bushed rod ends from Ridetech (http://www.ridetech.com/store/rod-end-1-3-4-x-3-4-by16-w-rubber-bushing-insert.html). These are the only rubber ends I've been able to find. I'd use these on the front of the ladder bar where it meets the chassis, poly everywhere else. I switched from a poly to the rubber ends on the leading arms on my Jag IRS and they made one heck of a noise difference! I won't use spherical rod ends unless I have too. Teraflex makes some poly bushed spherical rod ends if you need something that will rotate on an angle (http://4wheelonline.com/jeep/TeraFlex_Jeep_Monster_HD_Rod_Ends.103419.304462), such as maybe the track bar (panhard rod).



-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: RamblinMan
Date Posted: Jun/11/2012 at 3:19pm
Good to know. I may do that. Gonna start cutting on it in the next month. Really fighting the temptation to do a full blown tub job. What keeps me from doing it, is the fact that full pro-street tubbed cars are seriously dangerous to drive if caught in a rain storm - like hydroplaning at 40+ mph dangerous. Been there, driven that, and cleaned my shorts.

-------------
The Right Reverend of Blessed Acceleration


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: Jun/12/2012 at 1:08am
@Farna-Is there a single source for torque specs? I imagine I'll need those for the rearend as well as the heads....


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/12/2012 at 4:30pm
No, just ask for what you need. The head bolts should be torqued to 60 ft/lbs. For the rear axle ask when you get close ot needing them. If you just replace the axle shaft the only torque you need is for the axle nut, which is 250-300 ft/lbs. The backing plate bolts are just tightened good, no torque spec on them that I recall (I've never torqued them). 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: Jun/14/2012 at 3:06am
Found an axle! I was told that I needed a new hub to go with it, is that so? Also, what are the torque specs on the carrier bearing boltsand torque tube bolts?


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/14/2012 at 7:58am
If it's a brand new axle then you need a brand new hub to go on it. The hubs have no splines, they are "press fit" on the axle, which has fine splines. The hub material is a bit softer than the hardened axle and splines are pressed in when they are fit together and torqued. That makes the hub only fit that axle. If it's a used axle it may have the hub on it.

Torques:
hub to axle nut (big nut on end of axle) - 250 ft/lbs
differential bearing cap screws - 55-60 ft/lbs

There is no torque given for the tube to axle or tube to transmission bolts. Just snug them up good.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Wrambler
Date Posted: Jun/14/2012 at 2:50pm
Someone reported a while back they had success using mismatched new and used hub and axles together.
  They took the keyway out then put the hub on to see if the hub keyway slot and axle keyway slot lined up and it often does. If so and you have a non stripped out used hub you may be able to reuse that hub, just make sure hub and key are in good shape and torque to spec and I believe there is a measurement spec too. YMMV.

A new hub would indeed be best.


-------------
Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler
4.0L, 5 speed
2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
2019 Chrysler 300


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: Jun/14/2012 at 3:13pm
I'll probably just spend the money and get a new hub. It took me months to track down an axle and I'm not about to take any chances...
I'll definitely have some questions when it comes time to re-assemble my rearend and press the hub on...
 


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: Jun/21/2012 at 3:10am
How does one remove the inner pinion bearing from the pinion shaft? Or the carrier bearings from the carrier? Also, I know I have rubber outer axle seals, it's been suggested that I may have inner seals as well...


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/21/2012 at 6:26am
For the bearings you need a bearing separator. Like this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/large-bearing-separator-3979.html
You might want to call a machine shop and have them remove the bearings.

I wouldn't mess with the pinion bearings unless you know they are bad. Those (and the carrier bearings) usually don't wear out as long as the axle has always had oil in it. They will eventually wear out, but don't have a lot of load on them -- they will last 3-4 times as long as the outer bearings, which carry all the load.

The carrier bearings aren't a real problem, but the pinion bearings are. Clearance between the ring and pinion gears are critical! When you change the pinion bearings you change that clearance. Clearance is adjusted by shims between the bearings closest to the pinion gear and the axle housing. This can't be off by much -- only a few thousandths of an inch. This can be done at home, but is tedious and must be done with care. Basically you put a marking compound on the teeth and get a tooth pattern chart. Then you assemble the pinion in the axle and install the differential. Rotate and observe the pattern. That will tell you if the pinion is close enough to the ring gear or not. If not, pull it all apart, install or remove a shim, and start over. It may take 3-4 times to get it right. If you have and know how to use a dial indicator you can get it in 2-3 tries. It must be assembled then measured, then pulled back apart and assembled with the appropriate shim, then measured again to check at a minimum.

Usually all you have to do on a high mileage car with the axle bearings making noise is replace the outer axle bearings. These carry all the weight and have all the side stress on them, therefore wear out much quicker.

Differentials usually have an inner seal (on the axle tube in nearest the differential) OR and outer seal (behind the brake backing plate), NOT BOTH. I'm sure there are exceptions, maybe some 4x4 axles. My J-10 D44 front axle only has inner seals, the rear axle has outer.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Jun/21/2012 at 7:05am
The model 20 in my 70 Javelin has a inner seal that fits inside the tube and has an outter gasket if that's what you want to call it. IICR it is part of the backing plate retainer and is foam rubber but does not really seal to the axle it is more like a gasket to hold back any grease from the bearings as stock I think they are packes with grease.
Could be wrong as it has been a while since I had the rear apart. The TSM should show a break down of it.
Dave ----


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TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Jun/21/2012 at 7:55am
That's the way I remember it, the inner seal goes in the end of the tube just inside of the bearing and the outer seal prevents brake crud from getting into the bearing or bearing grease getting to the brakes.
If the differential wasn't making noise I wouldn't disassemble it. If it was run low on oil the carrier bearings will probably make noise first and IMO you could change them without significantly affecting the settings. Just keep track of your caps and shims for left and right. I've removed carrier bearings using a chisel and progressively larger shims from side to side but Frank's bearing puller would definitely be a safer way to go.
As you have an axle shaft without a hub, now would be the time to install a new wheel bearing. As you already know you would need to remove the hub to change the other one.You could use the bearing puller for that one too. Getting the hub off requires a special hub puller. A regular three jaw puller will probably bend the hub.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/21/2012 at 10:40am
Right -- but the "inner" seal is on the wheel end of the axle tube, not on the differential end of the axle tube. That's what I thought he meant by "inner seal".

You can pull the axle with the backing pale and get the hub off in a hydraulic press, but have to be careful! Takes a LOT of pressure. I have had to leave them in the press under pressure over night -- in a 20 ton press. Come back the next morning and it's off, or I hear it pop across the shop an hour or two later. Make sure there is a wood block between axle and concrete (or steel) though, and that the axle can't go far. An inch gap is enough. Then the axle won't all over once it pops loose, will still stand in the press. You're right -- you'd break a three jaw puller before that hub gave... maybe not if it had been off recently. The AMC hub pullers were real HD units!




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Frank Swygert


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Jun/21/2012 at 10:55am
The inner seal or axle seal is inside the tube guessing 6" or so. It is between the carrier & axle bearing IIRC. You then install the axle with bearing backing plate with sealer between plate & tube end then the retainer with the gasket on it.
Dave ----


-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: Jun/21/2012 at 2:54pm
Well, the pinion and carrier assembly are already removed. Not even gonna get into why I had to take em out, let's just say a certain custom axle shop here in Portland wrote a check they couldn't cash. And in truth, the pintion bearings and carrier bearings are all in great shape. If Farna's sayin they don't really need to be changed, I may forego it. Though I've heard that the pinion seal should be replaced once you've removed it. As for the axle seals, I'm guessing the rubber outer seals are all I have, as I can't find any at the differential. I don't recollect a "gasket" between my backing plate and axle tube, but I'll give it another look.
I'm only relacing the driver's side axle with a new axle shaft, hub, and of course bearing. To replace the bearing on the passenger side axle I'll have to first remove that hub? Will it press back on properly? 


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Jun/21/2012 at 4:30pm
Quote As for the axle seals, I'm guessing the rubber outer seals are all I have, as I can't find any at the differential. I don't recollect a "gasket" between my backing plate and axle tube, but I'll give it another look.
The axle seal is in side the tube, one on each side. If you have the axle out you should see a smooth part between the bearing and the carrier end, closer to the bearing end, That is where the seal rides.
The "gesket is not between the backing plate & tube, you use a little RTV, it is between the backing plate retainer plate (big hole in center and 4 bolt holes on the outside) and the backing plate.
IIRC it was just a thin foam thing
Dave ----


-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car


Posted By: Fergus1029
Date Posted: Jul/08/2012 at 1:37pm
I've been told that for the outer bearing seal, the rubber rng in the plate is replaceable and that the entire plate itself need not be replaced. Is this so?


Posted By: FuzzFace2
Date Posted: Jul/08/2012 at 2:22pm
Been many years when I did my Moser axles but IIRC every thing is used as stock other than the left side axle shims that are used to set axle end play. Yes the Moser axle bearings are sealed but I did not want to take a chance oil would make it by the outter bearing and axle tube.
Dave ----


-------------
TSM = Technical Service Manual

75 Gremlin X v8 for sale
70 Javelin 360/auto drag car
70 Javelin 360/T5 Street car



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