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Tell me about the "401"

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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11180
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Topic: Tell me about the "401"
Posted By: bughappy
Subject: Tell me about the "401"
Date Posted: Jun/16/2009 at 11:57pm
O.K. here's the thing, I'm working on 2 AMC projects, a '64 American wagon I'm turning into a "2door" & a "65 American 440H hardtop. I'm fairly new to AMC's and they are both progressing slowly, (they're a HOBBY, not a job!). Was planning to power them both with 350 chevy's & auto transmitions (ya, ya, I've heard it all before.....) ANYWAY, I've been convinced by some of my new AMC friends to power at least 1 of them with a AMC motor, so......... today I bought a 401 from a '74 Wagoneer.

Now, I know a bit about Chevy's but next to nothing about this new 401. What I want to end up with is an engine for a weekend cruiser in the 400 hp class (easy with a chevy), hooked up to an auto trans (727 chrysler what was used?)

BIG QUESTION is, what kind of parts do I need to be buying for a re=build? pistons? cam? rods? intake & carb (or carbs?), Heads or head work? etc ..........

Some of you guys talked me into the AMC motor (wasn't realy very hard) so Please help me get started.............. Thanks, Tom V




-------------
'87 Cherokee, '64 American 330 wagon, '65 American 440H

Searchin' for parts is half the fun! Them Chevy, Ford & Mopar guys have it to damn easy!



Replies:
Posted By: DragRacingSpirit
Date Posted: Jun/17/2009 at 9:50am
Originally posted by bughappy bughappy wrote:

BIG QUESTION is, what kind of parts do I need to be buying for a re=build? pistons? cam? rods? intake & carb (or carbs?), Heads or head work? etc .......
It all starts with the condition of your core as to what parts are going to be needed.
 
To make 400ish HP out of that 401 all you are going to need is a stock rebuild /re-ring job with a some head cleanup, a smallish hydraulic cam kit with springs..retainers...etc, some kind of decent intake manifold.....air gap...performer....R4B......free flowing exhaust.....recurved distributor....decent carb. 
 
Anything more than will be nice but not required for that power level.


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Best 1/4 mile 8.99, 1/8 mile 5.71, 60 foot 1.27, no power adders


Posted By: firecapt321
Date Posted: Jun/17/2009 at 12:17pm
Here is an example if it helps:

401 30 over
10:1 flat tops
eddy ported and polished aluminum heads, flowed 270 cfm @ 550 lift (think I remember right)
port matched air gap
engle 237 @ 50 hyd flat tappet 550 lift
erson rollers 1.6 ratio
eddy 800 cfm carb
 runs on 93 octane

Barry Allen dynoed at 432 HP @ 5700 461 ft lbs @ 3200 and it was a basic flatline on up





Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jun/17/2009 at 1:50pm
what year is this 401? since its a 401 out of a Jeep, the Jeep also had a TH 400. but with the AMC bell housing pattern. if you got it, it can be rebuilt in to a 2wd set up. but only thing is the speedometer hole has to be milled......been done before. the crank will have a spacer ring in it for the TH400. the TF uses a different flexplate than the 400. and to run the TF, you have to take the bushing out of the crank, (Try not to damage it, you cant buy them anymore).


Posted By: steeters
Date Posted: Jun/17/2009 at 2:24pm

Tom,

I'd take it all down to the machine shop and see what they say about the condition of the current collection of parts.  Post the results of their analysis and their recommendations and I think people on here will be able to help you build the motor you want.  Keep in mind, there are plenty of people running their motors really hard with cast pistons, stock rods, no oil modifications, stock heads, etc.  There are plenty of upgrades available, it just depends on where you want to say "enough."

Prices vary, but I spent $100 to strip, boil, magnaflux and report on overbore potential of my block.  $60 to boil and mag the rods, but I'll recommend right now that you just buy new AMC I beam rods...it will save you money in the long run...so don't bother having them tested (others will disagree).  I spent $50 to hot tank, mag and measure the crank.  Actual machine work was extra.
 
Steve


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jun/17/2009 at 4:52pm
For a ~1k mile-per-year hobby car, if an "undamaged" used engine,
just a Ball Hone, Re-Ring, Main, Rod, & Cam bearings, Timing Chain, Cam/Lifters of your choice, imho.
Shops have "their reputation" to consider, and chunk of profit in boring charges.
For a ~15k mile-per-year reliable year round daily driver, or a hotrod or race car, sure, a full rebuild.
Just an opinion.
 
Car Craft made 480 HP with a mild 401 build:
 
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0503_amc_brute_engines/index.html - http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0503_amc_brute_engines/index.html
 
Seems there is another Magazine article where they made 500 HP, unable to find it just now.
Was in Hot Rod mag June 1998, American Performance folk in FLA in a Spirit.
Yet to find it on-line.  Seems there is still yet another article.
Dang, was sure it was in my favorites, but striking out.
 
 
Cool
 
 


-------------


Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: BassBoat
Date Posted: Jun/17/2009 at 7:21pm
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0706_v8_engine_performance_parts/mopar.html - http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0706_v8_engine_performance_parts/mopar.html
There are some new pistons and rods available from Wiseco/K1 that replace the 30+ year old rods and cast pistons with modern forgings. 
BB


Posted By: firecapt321
Date Posted: Jun/17/2009 at 7:31pm
Well, one of your big questions you asked is port work..... if you read that car craft article they put in a lot of head work.. not to mention an HLR intake, big DP on top, custom pistons yadda yadda yadda.... some seem to make it sound like 4 - 500 tried and true hp is easy to gain with these engines. not so much IMHO unless you are talented like a bunch of the guys here on the forums that can do a lot of this work yourself... I mean how much money to the average joe is in that intake and carb, add the head work and intake port work... you got some serious coin and time just in the top end of that motor... please guys, dont take it that I am disagreeing with you guys or am trying to act like I know how to professionally build engines, just simply giving him a noobs realistic look from the outside looking in.... especially since he has said he is from the chebby world,... thats all, just another point of view... Good Luck!! but you will turn a lot more heads with that AMC under the hood, that I can guarantee and attest too!!! 


Posted By: firecapt321
Date Posted: Jun/17/2009 at 7:53pm
Just re-read my post, I really hope it didnt come off the wrong way.. those of you that know me know I didnt mean anything bad or argumentative...Wink 


Posted By: amx39068
Date Posted: Jun/17/2009 at 11:08pm
For a 400HP engine, the stock rods will work just fine, particularly if the engine came out of Jeep that has never been rebuilt before.  
 
There are a lot of strong feelings on the subject of new rods vs stock rods and many will insist on getting new rods but there are WAY, WAY, WAY more stock rods running just fine and in more 390s and 401s than you can count as compared to engines with aftermarket new rods.  Street engines run fine on stock AMC rods and even run fine with stock AMC rod bolts although new rod bolts and resizing the rods is never a a bad thing. 
 
I pulled together 15 engines for myself and other AMCers last year.  They all have stock rods and not one of them has experienced a problem.  In nearly 40 years of running AMC 390s and 401 on the street, I have never lost a single stock AMC rod no matter how hard I waiedl on them. On the other hand, if you plan to make this a race engine then build it with the latest and greatest parts you can get.  Street racing is not the same as racing as the track so different rules should be applied for the two environments.


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Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development


Posted By: bughappy
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 1:38am
Sounds like I'm going to be happy with just a thorough inspection & going thru by our local machine shop, balance it, have one of you AMC guys to clean up the stock (mild porting) heads a bit, mild cam, new manifold (edelbrock air gap maybe?) & carb, good headers (headman?) modify the oiling systom & maybe the crank for an auto trans (then find a good one of those). Doesn't sound any harder than the SBC 383 "stroker" I was planing! Shipping company says The engine is due here this Friday so I'll have a much better idea what I have to work with soon. In the mean time I'll keep reading all the posts I find here on the forum, there IS a lot of good info here!

Tom V

-------------
'87 Cherokee, '64 American 330 wagon, '65 American 440H

Searchin' for parts is half the fun! Them Chevy, Ford & Mopar guys have it to damn easy!


Posted By: Alliups
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 2:42am
Originally posted by PHAT69AMX PHAT69AMX wrote:

For a ~1k mile-per-year hobby car, if an "undamaged" used engine,
just a Ball Hone, Re-Ring, Main, Rod, & Cam bearings, Timing Chain, Cam/Lifters of your choice, imho.
Shops have "their reputation" to consider, and chunk of profit in boring charges.
For a ~15k mile-per-year reliable year round daily driver, or a hotrod or race car, sure, a full rebuild.
Just an opinion.
 
Car Craft made 480 HP with a mild 401 build:
 
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0503_amc_brute_engines/index.html - http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0503_amc_brute_engines/index.html
 
Seems there is another Magazine article where they made 500 HP, unable to find it just now.
Was in Hot Rod mag June 1998, American Performance folk in FLA in a Spirit.
Yet to find it on-line.  Seems there is still yet another article.
Dang, was sure it was in my favorites, but striking out.
 
 
Cool
 
 


I've got that article but will have to find it. I think it was actually in CC though. And because iit was one of the dudes from American Performance and not some CC or Hotrod tuner hero it actually made what an AMC V8 should make without going backwards like seems to be the case when either rag has a hand in a build.They are hard headed, including Glad.

Steve



Posted By: CloudyB
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 5:34am

Steve thanks for sharing that article from Car Craft. Very good reading.



-------------
70 BB Green Donohue


Posted By: 73hornut
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 8:02am
The most recent HR mag features 3 amc 401's, one with iron heads making 679hp, on pump gas.

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71 Javelin
74 Gremlin
79 Spirit AMX
Rogue Valley Rumblers
Like Us on FB
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Posted By: firecapt321
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 8:50am
Originally posted by 73hornut 73hornut wrote:

The most recent HR mag features 3 amc 401's, one with iron heads making 679hp, on pump gas.


Yep, built by Barry Allen... great article....


Posted By: TorqueyAMX
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 9:40am
Originally posted by CloudyB CloudyB wrote:

Steve thanks for sharing that article from Car Craft. Very good reading.

 
That engine in Car Craft is Bill Tichenor's engine, a Marketing guy at "Holley". Bill is a cool guy. I remember teasing him at the Street Rod Nationals what carburetor he would put on it and on how nice that engine would look with an Edebrock Intake and Valve Covers!LOL


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Posted By: Alliups
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 10:38am
Cloudy, Phat actually provided the article on Bill Tichnor's engine. I still have to find the older article with the 500 plus hp 401 Spirit. Keep in mind that all the hp figures bandied about are for comparison only. Depending on the dyno type used and the settings the figures are a reference and in some instances no more reflect accurate reality than Britney spears and good judgementCry. Not having built an AMC engine yet I can only comment ( despite the lack of awe for CC or HOTROD controlled AMC builds ) that from archiving stuff over the years and from experience with other engines that some of the stuff they come up with really has me scratching my head in wonder. Tichnor's engine seems to have been between him and J.T. Payton and the numbers based on the sketchy information provided don't seem at all unreasonable, agin from the dyno readout as a reference standpoint. The cam used has fairly mild specs ( though with a stout lobe separation angle ) and depending on which casting they chose I'm wondering about the valve sizes they went with. Seems like Ken Parkman's experiments with later castings (  993? 502? 090? ) indicate that if you go the big valve route there has to be alot of complementary unshrouding and bowl work to really take advantage even with later CC's that don't crowd the intake side like a 291 casting does unmodified. However, J.T. Payton is a respected name in AMC circles. I thought he was connected more to Jeeps though. Given the stated goal of hooking up fuel injection and maintaining driveability and looking at the average torque figures this engine wouldn't have been a bad base both for an Engine Masters challenge but likely kicks serious butt on the street with that broad curve. Wouldn't be a bad basis for a strong autocross ride. All in my opinion.

Steve


Posted By: steeters
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 3:09pm

Tom,

Just curious, what casting number do you have on your heads?  Post this information if you'd like and you can get some valvetrain opinions...as your options will vary a bit depending on what heads you've got.

Steve


Posted By: bughappy
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 7:00pm
Steve,
I bought this "sight unseen" from my Fed-Ex guy who has, like me, been a hot rod VW guy (don't laugh my VW powered glass buggy runs low 11's, high 10's on carbs) plus, he's also been an AMC guy for years & years. Anyway the motor is due here Friday & I'll post all the numbers I can find on block & heads.
Tom

P.S. was at Summit in Reno (Sparks realy) today & bought wheels & tires for my '64 wagon. And from their "sale" table a new Edelbrock performer manifold for a bargan price! My FIRST 401 hotrod part, I'm SOOOO proud!!

-------------
'87 Cherokee, '64 American 330 wagon, '65 American 440H

Searchin' for parts is half the fun! Them Chevy, Ford & Mopar guys have it to damn easy!


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 8:00pm
Performer is a pretty nice stock replacement intake manifold, more so at a bargain price.
If planning a stall converter and some gears, the Torker works really well on an AMC, imho.
Another Car Craft article, AMC 360 build, 370 C.I. and 480 HP for the Project CC/Rambler:
 
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0601_amc_360_engine_build/index.html - http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0601_amc_360_engine_build/index.html
 
Cool


-------------


Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 9:09pm
Yeah, the 360 build. I criticized that build for using a lot of unnecessary machine work and "special" parts when there are plenty available parts made for AMCs that would have done the job without anything fancy at all. That's when I found out that Glad doesn't like criticism, even mild criticism. I just stated that they could have built it in a way that anyone could replicate it easily and saved a good deal of money with off the shelf parts.

AMC used a Chrysler trans for the most part from 72-up. As someone pointed out, some of the Jeep Wagoneers used TH-400s in the early 80s. In either case, the bell housing is different for the AMC engine (the main case), so you can't get a Chrysler or GM trans and just bolt it on. You can get an adapter for a standard GM trans from Novak or Advance Adapters. Or you can have the Jeep trans (whichever it is) rebuilt, substituting the output shaft and housing for two wheel drive parts from a Chrysler 727 or GM 400. Only the main case (bell) is different, all internal components and the splines on the output shaft are typical Chrysler or GM. Either trans has to be totally disassembled to change the output shaft, so may as well rebuild it. Or get the adapter and run a 700R4.

No one mentioned that the stock crank and rods in a 390 or 401 are forged pieces. That's why you don't need to worry about the rods like you do in a Chevy. Just make sure they're true, clean them up, and maybe have them shot peened if you're going to be turning it up a lot. The stock rods are at least as good as  low cost forged performance Chevy rods. The heads flow really good stock -- roughly the equivalent of much later Chevy LS-1 heads.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 9:46pm
Agree with your points farna about the Car Craft 360 build. Cool

-------------


Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: Alliups
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 11:34pm
Found the article on the 401 equipped Spirit in June 1998 Hot Rod ( it was Hot Rod! ). I'll scan or copy in the morn, whichever method makes the clearest info to post. Also, for anyone interested- this is but one copy for sale: http://cgi.ebay.com/Hot-Rod-Magazine-June-1998-Good-Condition_W0QQitemZ230345432172QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq20090527?IMSfp=TL090527153003r23090 - http://cgi.ebay.com/Hot-Rod-Magazine-June-1998-Good-Condition_W0QQitemZ230345432172QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq20090527?IMSfp=TL090527153003r23090


Steve


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jun/18/2009 at 11:59pm
If the 401 is a 1974, it will have the 502's.


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 12:03am
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:



AMC used a Chrysler trans for the most part from 72-up. As someone pointed out, some of the Jeep Wagoneers used TH-400s in the early 80s.
They used TF's from 1972 & Up. In the passenger cars.
AMC used TH400's From 1973-79.(In Jeeps)   then 1980, AMC started to use TF's in Jeeps.


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 6:03am
Thanks for the correction Purple! I was on the wrong side of 1980... I recalled that 80 was the break point.  I checked a Jeep site -- even CJs (from 76-79, no auto before the CJ-7) and FSJs with the six used the TH-400 though 79. For some reason I was thinking only the FSJs used the TH-400, but checked before typing this time! Embarrassed

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: bughappy
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 1:12pm
Engine just arrived on a pallet. Will get it up on an engine stand this afternoon. It is complete with power steering pump, fan, cast headers, carb & manifold etc. along with 30 plus years of grease & grime! Have a mandatory trip to Cal. first thing tomorrow so have limited time to clean up the motor today.
Where will I find numbers on the heads & block if I dont have time to clean (presure wash) before I leave for the weekend? I'd realy like to get 'em posted so I can get some more tips on what I'm going to need to do to my new "baby"!


Tom V

-------------
'87 Cherokee, '64 American 330 wagon, '65 American 440H

Searchin' for parts is half the fun! Them Chevy, Ford & Mopar guys have it to damn easy!


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by bughappy bughappy wrote:

Have a mandatory trip to Cal. first thing tomorrow so have limited time to clean up the motor today.
........


Tom V


Unless it's your probation officer, divorce court, or a federal judge, I'd be tempted to reclassify that as not-mandatory..... LOL


-------------


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Posted By: whizkidder
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 2:00pm
Block casting number will be on the rear of the engine on the top left of the bell housing flange -- probably covered in a 1/2 inch of grease and grime.
 
Displacement will be cast into the side of the block on both sides under the motor mounts.
 
Head casting numbers are under the valve covers about half-way back between the valve springs (at an angle).
 
Should take you only a few minutes to get to all three.


-------------
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague


Posted By: Alliups
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by bughappy bughappy wrote:

Engine just arrived on a pallet. Will get it up on an engine stand this afternoon. It is complete with power steering pump, fan, cast headers, carb & manifold etc. along with 30 plus years of grease & grime! Have a mandatory trip to Cal. first thing tomorrow so have limited time to clean up the motor today.
Where will I find numbers on the heads & block if I dont have time to clean (presure wash) before I leave for the weekend? I'd realy like to get 'em posted so I can get some more tips on what I'm going to need to do to my new "baby"!


Tom V


9 digit cast in number for heads under valve cover towards front at a 30 degree angle probably starting with 323 or 321. Heads will probably in in 502 but may be different if they are a later casting Block number should be on driver side rear of block behind head on a ledge above the bell-housing mounting area. Displacement is in big block cast numbers on either side slightly above the engine mount boss.

Steve


Posted By: Alliups
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

Yeah, the 360 build. I criticized that build for using a lot of unnecessary machine work and "special" parts when there are plenty available parts made for AMCs that would have done the job without anything fancy at all. That's when I found out that Glad doesn't like criticism, even mild criticism. I just stated that they could have built it in a way that anyone could replicate it easily and saved a good deal of money with off the shelf parts.


Yeah- Glad emailed me back when I commented on their upcoming build- the 401. I suggested he contact some AMC builders for advice or look at the article I'm about to post on here. He asked me why I was suggesting a build "they" had already done ten years before. Silly of me to point him in a direction of picking up where that build left off rather than starting behind the learning curve. I don't think I wrote back figuring he was a hard head and he needed to learn some humbling lessons. This was confirmed by the So Cal AMC club. They say he shows up at gatherings they have in L.A. sometimes and he doesn't listen to any of their suggestions. He's a hot rodding 'expert'. We saw how well that went when the 370 ate up the distributor gear early on.Clap
 Point is, as Farna and others will point out, you can build a decent engine without doing silly things or spending gobs of money on unnecessary machining. Pay attention to the outlined basics and use good quality components or ascertain that what is there is in good, solid condition and you can have fun.

Steve

Steve


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 3:48pm
I suppose I can understand them wanting to do something different or highlight a new product, but that's no necessarily the best service for readers. And ten years before... how many CC readers have been subscribing since 1999? No new readers interested in an AMC build since then?? 

-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: forest
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 4:22pm
Car Craft is turning into the new Hot Rod. Big dollar builds, and hardly any cheap $hit anymore. I beleive in doing it right, but, what about the articles with spraying a 300 hit on a STOCK 350 chevy. Or building a bolton combo with manifolds and headers ect... off ebay...   reall  CAR CARFT stuff?  There is none.  I have wanted to do a mag like this for some time now and I am leaning more towards it all the time. Who wants to see stuff built fast for cheap again?

-------------
setting guys out by car lengths....


Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 4:29pm
I've got some experience with niche market magazines -- computers and cars. It's tough to get started without a big disposable budget. If you do it as a hobby as I have, it's okay, but if you want to make money doing it, you've got to have a big start-up budget that might take years to get back -- assuming the magazine is a success. Still, I'm interested, and will do what I can to help. Contact me via private e-mail or call if you're serious.


-------------
Frank Swygert


Posted By: Alliups
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 4:54pm
Teasers til tonight:



I'll be posting the text and photos in little bits so that the text is as clear and readable sized as in the mag rather than the above shrunk stuff.




Posted By: Alliups
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 5:20pm


           
 

      
                                                                                    




Steve





Posted By: bughappy
Date Posted: Jun/19/2009 at 9:14pm
O.K. ............... Numbers!
C.U. --- 401 (as advertized)
Block # --- 3198951
Head # --- 3220502

Inside the valve covers it was very clean, lots better than the years of build up on the outside.   

Thank you guys for all the info over the last few days it's realy juced up the "learning curve" on this motor!

Tom V

P.S. Billd, how did you know I met my soon to be ex-wife when she was my P.O. and now that she's a federal judge she is divorcing me???

(P.P.S. for those of you who haven't read ALL of this thread the P.S. above is just a joke, realy, hardly any truth at all )

-------------
'87 Cherokee, '64 American 330 wagon, '65 American 440H

Searchin' for parts is half the fun! Them Chevy, Ford & Mopar guys have it to damn easy!


Posted By: Alliups
Date Posted: Jun/20/2009 at 3:26am
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