Super T10
Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: Transmission & Drivetrain
Forum Description: If it's between the engine and wheels, it goes here
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=103979
Printed Date: Apr/23/2024 at 3:53pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Super T10
Posted By: gnrand
Subject: Super T10
Date Posted: Feb/10/2020 at 8:58pm
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I have the opportunity to buy a Super T10 for my 68 AMX. It is 3 groove 26 spline. The only reason for considering this is to get to a 2.64 first gear to help with a 3.15 final gear ratio. I think I would also need a different clutch. Am I missing something to do this conversion and is it something I should pursue? Thanks Jeff ------------- 1968 AMX 1986 Buick GN 1965 Corvair Corsa 1966 V8 Corvair 1969 Scrambler Stock 1969 Scrambler Modified |
Replies:
Posted By: rodhhrod
Date Posted: Feb/10/2020 at 9:52pm
| Super t-10 is a myth, 3 groove is usually a 264, great with 3:15's |
Posted By: mark09
Date Posted: Feb/10/2020 at 9:58pm
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I'd worry about the 26 spline input, normally amc had 10 spline. Could be GM and different output shaft count and shorter input length.
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Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Feb/11/2020 at 6:37am
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Adapting your transmission to the Super T10 gear ratios. The clutch and slip yoke are really not a problem, mounting the GM case to your bell would be. As the article states, you can swap the guts. There is an internal bearing, as memory serves, that also has to be changed to do this. https://www.hemmings.com/blog/article/borg-warner-t-10-four-speed/" rel="nofollow - https://www.hemmings.com/blog/article/borg-warner-t-10-four-speed/ Went through some old notes. The input shafts are different lengths but the note states to buy a truck extended pilot bearing that is double the length of the standard bearing. The only problem is the notes don't state what truck, I'm assuming a it's a Ford as Jeeps don't have extended bearings. An older transmission shop may be better help on this. Should have kept better notes!
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Posted By: 1970390amx
Date Posted: Feb/11/2020 at 2:59pm
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Not the cheapest way to put a trans in a amc, Sounds like the trans is a GM T-10, Quicktime makes a bell housing to bolt a Gm four speed to the amc engine. Shifter location mount and driveshaft would still need to be addressed ------------- 1970 390 4speed Bittersweet shadow mask AMX 1970 Amx missing most everything, or in a box |
Posted By: bbgjc
Date Posted: Feb/11/2020 at 3:15pm
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I recently rebuilt a 75 GM Super T-10 for a friend. I decided that I would tear down an unmolested AMC T-10 and compare notes. Long and short of it, no go with out considerable work and expense. Mainshaft different, input shaft different, gears different. Idler shaft and reverse gear the same. Bearing and thrust washers are different. Parts are getting harder and harder to find if you need gears. It took me three years, back in 08, to get a complete set of NOS gears for my 70 AMX. You'd be better off getting a Tremec T-5 and Quick Time bell housing and really having fun.
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Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Feb/11/2020 at 6:51pm
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Try contacting Brian Higgins by telephone at S&K Speed Transmission Shop in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York for anything and everything AMC T-10 -------------  Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video |
Posted By: rodhhrod
Date Posted: Feb/11/2020 at 9:33pm
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So my question is, is the opportunity to buy a GM super T-10 or is it a T-10P and the seller says its a super T-10. As far as I know AMC DID NOT have a super. Someone please educate me. 
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Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Feb/12/2020 at 11:41am
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Only from reading, no hands-on, Ford, GM, etc used Borg Warner T-10 earlier than AMC. Then Ford, GM, etc stopped using them, went with Muncie, etc. Then AMC started using the T-10 with some differences from the original, the mid-T-10 I call it. Then sometime in the ? mid-70's ? GM and others went back to using the T-10 and it was different than the AMC mid-T-10. The last version used by GM & others was called or labeled as the Super T-10, not the middle version that AMC used. ------------- Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video |
Posted By: amc67rogue
Date Posted: Feb/13/2020 at 2:31pm
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There are 3 versions of the Super T-10 . The first version came out in (1965 NOT 1975) as the ( S1). They had course pitch gears, a 1/8 thrust flange between 2nd & 3rd gears and solid strut keys . Ford and AMC used it . Fords ratios were 2.64 - 2.10 - 1.50 -1.0 then Ford went to the Top Loader. AMC ratios were 2.43 1.76 1.46 1.0 used in 65 and 66,and yes there was a torque tube model. In 67 Am ratios changed to 2.64 2.10 1..46 1.0 . In 68 they went to the 2.23 1.76 1.35 1.0 ratios. In 72 the (S2) came out , it had a quarter in thrust flange between 2nd & 3rd and 2nd gear was back cut 1/8 to allow for the wider flange . In 75 the S3 came out. The counter shaft was changed from 7/8 to 1 in. ------------- Keith Coggins 67Rogue X code |
Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Feb/13/2020 at 5:27pm
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So, going back 30 years, you could take the guts out of the GM Super T10 and put them in the AMC T10. Everything would fit, but the bearings had to be changed for the counter shaft, the shifter fork levers from the AMC had to be used with the Hurst shifter, the pilot bearing in the flywheel had to be longer, the clutch and slip yoke had to be the GM. The other way of doing this was to turn down the ends of the counter shaft and use the original bearings. The original bearings, as memory serves, were narrower and a spacer had to be installed. As stated above the parts to do this may not be readily available now, the changes are not well documented, and transmission shops had all the parts - THEN. The Tremec or T5 are likely the best documented, best driver option, looking at it with today's eyes. I put a T5 in my car and would never go back to a T10. The Tremec is likely the better option now. |
Posted By: madams
Date Posted: Feb/13/2020 at 5:32pm
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I dont think gnrnd is trying to retrofit an off brand SuperT10 (GM or other)? from his other posts he has a factory Hurst shifter that likely would not fit other applications. Per the AMC publication:
Performance American Style – (start quote) “Borg-Warner "T-10"
4-speed boxes have been used in three different series in production, and are
available in two other series as aftermarket items. All gear sets interchange. However, there are differences in throw-out
bearing and collar that should be considered.
The T-10 “V” used with 68-69 model 390 engines incorporated a large
front bearing cap (#318 5168) and throw out bearing (#320 7521). All other T-10’s (including aftermarket T-10)
use a smaller bearing and cap. For performance
applications, the larger parts should be used.
Gear ratio depends on type of competition. Production T-10 “T” series 2.64, 2.10, 1.49,
1.00 “P” series 2.43, 1.76, 1.47,
1.00 “V” series 2.23, 1.77, 1.35,
1.00 Aftermarket Super T-10 “W” series 2.64, 1.75, 1.33,
1.00 “S” series 2.43, 1.61, 1.23,
1.00” (end quote) My comments The book doesn’t discuss the
grooves or splines. Not sure where I got
it, but below is what I have for the grooves.
From working with other aftermarket input gears, they did not necessarily
follow the groove identification scheme (a lot has happened in 50 yrs). As far as the splines go, I would think any
10.5” clutch that fits the splines should work (he didn’t mention the shaft
diameter). It makes sense that a
heavy-duty transmission (super) would use an input-shaft/clutch with more
splines. 2:64 T 3
Grooves 2:43 P 4 Grooves 2:23 V 5 Grooves 2:64 W - Super 1 Groove 2:43 S - Super 1 Groove |
Posted By: Steve_P
Date Posted: Feb/14/2020 at 6:53am
| This has been discussed many times. AMC used a T10 and not a super T10 (which came out after 1970). The internal parts are different as BBGJC said, and it has been said many times before - by people that have actually rebuilt a T10 and bought parts. |
Posted By: madams
Date Posted: Feb/14/2020 at 8:33am
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I agree that no super was installed from the factory, but I directly quoted from the AMC Publication - Performance American Style Page 13 that indicates that "Aftermarket" T10s were available. Later on in the book, it discusses using the Aftermarket T10s in thier highest level performance level Mode 4 (7,500+ RPM Capability) Quote from page 36 (Start Quote) ... the Super T-10 Special Wide "W" series seems to work best (end quote). Aparently one of the writers at AMC thought they had one. I have never worked on a Super-T10 from any brand, but I can probably dig up the receipt for the last AMC T-10 small parts kit I installed.
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Posted By: 1948kaiser
Date Posted: Feb/14/2020 at 8:42am
| the sellers on ebay keep listing them as super t10 or super t10 parts for an amc when they are not. even a trans dated in the 67 to 69 they will list as a super t10. |
Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Feb/14/2020 at 10:04am
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Take a look at this rebuild kit, BK177HDWS-SAO It's for the AMC and 1st design GM Super T10. Most everyone is familiar with the 2nd design GM only T10. Now look at this page on the GM parts list: https://tbtrans.com/t10_transmission.htm" rel="nofollow - https://tbtrans.com/t10_transmission.htm They list the 1st design parts separate from the second design. 1974, GM BW T10 1st design shared many parts of our beloved AMC T10. And the parts of this transmission, including high content nickel gears, heavy duty bearings, better syncros, and even the main and idler shafts could be interchanged - IF you had someone with the parts and know how. I bet this guy knows: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/t-10-transmission-better-than-new/" rel="nofollow - https://www.hotrod.com/articles/t-10-transmission-better-than-new/ https://www.5speeds.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&path=75_76_80&product_id=193" rel="nofollow - https://www.5speeds.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&path=75_76_80&product_id=193
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Posted By: 1948kaiser
Date Posted: Feb/14/2020 at 5:16pm
| got another on that is selling cluster shafts to go in the cluster gear as fitting a amc t10 or a super t10. the diameter is one inch. yes one inch. the amc t10 uses on that is 7/8 inch. must be magic to get it to fit. |
Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Feb/14/2020 at 8:43pm
Sorry for the bluntness but please read!
I did this years ago yes, with a LOT of help from the transmission shop next door were I worked, it fits - more then once! This is the GM Super Gen1 T10, NOT the Super Gen 2. The Gen 2 has a 1" counter shaft, a bearing between 2nd and 3rd, and 3/4" longer case. The GM Gen 1 is the same case "size" as the AMC, 7/8" counter shaft dia, no bearing between 2nd and 3rd, with almost all the same parts. You can put GM Gen 1 T10 guts in an AMC case with all the available upgrades GM offered later. Including changing gear ratios and using the GM clutch which is 10.4" on the higher input spline main shaft, not a huge loss. We used a GM McLeod clutch bolted, without modification, to the AMC flywheel. I don't know if all this is available TODAY. but it was THEN. The AMC case is required for the bell housing mounting, the shifter mounting and transmission mounting.
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Posted By: Ram Air Rick
Date Posted: Feb/15/2020 at 2:07pm
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NOT busting chops here, but the red highlighted and enlarged AMC transmission 1st gear ratios vs input shaft groove information, in my experience, isn't correct. Every AMC T-10 I have, have seen, or owned that has the 2.23 first gear ratio, has 4 rings on the input shaft. The current AMC T-10 2.43 transmission I have, doesn't have any rings on the input shaft. In contrast to this, all the AMC T-10's with the 2.64 1st gear ratio I have, have seen, or have had, do have three rings on the input shaft. A few years back I purchased what was suppose to be a 2.43 AMC T-10 . When we received it, we decided to spin the trans just to verify it was in fact the 2.43 . It wound up being a 2.23. When I questioned the seller, I found out he went off the often spread misinformation, that everybody seems to find and trust. Heck it even makes sense in the progression of things. It's just not a full truth. The person I bought that transmission from I trust fully and knew he'd made honest mistake. I decided to keep the trans anyhow, even though he offered to refund my money. I know the poster here, was just trying to add to this thread. Thought I'd add my 2 cents for what it's worth. Quote from previous post: The book doesn’t discuss the grooves or splines. Not sure where I got it, but below is what I have for the grooves. From working with other aftermarket input gears, they did not necessarily follow the groove identification scheme (a lot has happened in 50 yrs). As far as the splines go, I would think any 10.5” clutch that fits the splines should work (he didn’t mention the shaft diameter). It makes sense that a heavy-duty transmission (super) would use an input-shaft/clutch with more splines. 2:64 T 3 Grooves 2:43 P 4 Grooves 2:23 V 5 Grooves 2:64 W - Super 1 Groove ------------- Rich Corsello |
Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Feb/15/2020 at 2:27pm
| I bought , AMC case, that was sold as 2.43 but its 2.23 and 2 groove. Cost too much in shipping to return. You have to spin them to make sure. Buyer beware! |
Posted By: madams
Date Posted: Feb/16/2020 at 8:08pm
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No chops busted here - I'm interested in what is correct I keep a spreadsheet with various specs. - not sure where those numbers came from. I just checked a 2:64 tranny which has 3 grooves. I have a 22 tooth input gear which should be a 2:23 with 5 grooves. Those are the only 2 data points I have, so I can defer to your more practical experience. I think the lesson learned here is "dont trust the grooves."  I dont have much experience with AMC T-10s but I rebuilt quite a few Muncie 4-sp in the 80s and the aftermarket input gears didnt follow thier groove system at all. This link seems to confirm that the grooves werent consistent either, but is just another random posting on the internet that might be as confused as i am http://https://scrambler1969.blogspot.com/2015/11/amc-borg-warner-t-10-4-speed.html" rel="nofollow - http://https://scrambler1969.blogspot.com/2015/11/amc-borg-warner-t-10-4-speed.html |
Posted By: oleblue69
Date Posted: Mar/27/2020 at 2:49pm
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okey you got it all wrong.......the early T10's in fords and chevys ....Because GM and Ford and Mopar was looking for a stronger trans. By the time the New The 1st SUPER T-10 came outcase..GM had made M21! and M22 muncie, Chrysler had come out with the 833....and Ford the Top Loader. So .because by the time the 1st Generation Super T-10 was produced.. Everyone had upgraded to stronger 4 speeds and no longer needed the 1st generation SUPER T-10...CastIron Super T-10 came out, new (not plane old T-10) Super T-10 was offered to AMC and they jump at it, to put in the AMC cars. Because it has CastIron Case its stronger then the later Aluminum, so called Super t-10's ,offered in GM and Fords. More Nickel in steel, in all Super T-10's ,more splines and strength in Carrier assembly. So when someone tells u ,u have a old version of T-10, thats incorrect........you have the 1st Generation of Super T-10. I have the write up from Carcraft written in the 90's Also lie is that M21 and M22 Muncie should be called a rock crusher......The Rock crusher expression came from any 3 speed or 4 speed manual where ever other tooth was ground off the synchros.. any other gear but 1st gear. The clutch was used to launch the car, in 1st gear....after that no clutch was used, you just jammed the gears......hence the sound and word rock crusher...much later then called m21 m22 rock crushers because the off set grind on the teeth made for noisy gear shifting ------------- JS |
Posted By: oleblue69
Date Posted: Mar/27/2020 at 2:57pm
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okey you got it all wrong.......the early T10's in fords and chevys
....Because GM and Ford and Mopar was looking for a stronger trans. By
the time the New The 1st SUPER T-10 came outcase..GM had made M21! and
M22 muncie, Chrysler had come out with the 833....and Ford the Top
Loader. So .because by the time the 1st Generation Super T-10 was
produced.. Everyone had upgraded to stronger 4 speeds and no longer
needed the 1st generation SUPER T-10...CastIron Super T-10 came out,
new (not plane old T-10) Super T-10 was offered to AMC and they jump at
it, to put in the AMC cars. Because it has CastIron Case its stronger
then the later Aluminum, so called Super t-10's ,offered in GM and
Fords. More Nickel in steel, in all Super T-10's ,more splines and
strength in Carrier assembly. So when someone tells u ,u have a old
version of T-10, thats incorrect........you have the 1st Generation of
Super T-10. I have the write up from Carcraft written in the 90's ------------- JS |
Posted By: Class Guy
Date Posted: Mar/27/2020 at 3:32pm
The M22 Model of the Muncie was the only one termed "rock crusher". That gear set had significantly lower gear angle than the M20 and M21. When it was in operation, it roared and growled noticeably and the gear teeth were larger, so it was nicknamed the "rock crusher". The M20 and M21 were the common transmissions and the difference was the gear ratios. The M20 was a 2.56 or 2.52 first gear depending on the year produced; the M21 was the "close ratio" 2.20 first gear version. These roughly matched the ratio options used in the BW T10s that GM used from 1957 through 1962-3. What you are describing by grinding every other tooth off the engagement teeth and sliders was commonly termed "slick-shifting" and was developed by the MoPar engineers for their Super Stock racers in the early to mid 60s. Here is some info for the history and the process. uploads/45/Slick_Shift.pdf" rel="nofollow - uploads/45/Slick_Shift.pdf http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/transmission/1808-guide-to-muncie-m20-m21-and-m22-four-speed-transmissions/" rel="nofollow - http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/transmission/1808-guide-to-muncie-m20-m21-and-m22-four-speed-transmissions/ ------------- Addicted to acceleration. Owner and Admin for www.classracerinfo.com |
oleblue69 wrote:Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Mar/27/2020 at 7:33pm
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Forget the spline count for the moment and the Muncie. Look at the history and the BW T10. GM and Ford used them until around 1969, then AMC started using them as GM, Ford and Chrysler were getting warranty returns in 1968 do to BW transmission failures do to HP/torque failures. Gen 0 BW T10's. AMC bought into the next generation Gen 1 - Super T10 as BW was having problems and AMC took advantage. In 1969 AMC started using a revised cast iron case T10 transmission, Ford and Chrysler also used them to a certain degree as they could not keep up with their own production requirements. Ford had the Top Loader and Chrysler the A833. The 1969 version of the BW T10 had high nickel gears and was far superior to what I'll call the Gen 0 T10. Take a look at how AMC was beating the crap out of the BW T10's and holding the same HP/torque of the Muncies, Top Loaders or A833. These were the Gen 1 Super T10, same as the GM BW Power Brute starting in 1975. AMC still used the cast case Gen 1 Super T10 until end of production (they even used some aluminum case Gen 2 T10's). GM went to the Gen 2 Super T10 aluminum case completely by 1981. But some Pontiac's, Corvette's and Camaro's could still be had with the Power Brute, Gen 1 BW T10 or AMC T10 that everyone would not admit to and still will not to this day. You can tell a GM BW Power Brute by the cast iron case and 7/8" idler shaft diameter - same as the AMC T10. I don't know how many parts swap over from the Power Brute to the AMC BW T10, but I do know some will. Maybe even gear sets? So if the Power Brute and AMC T10 were direct decedents, and the transmission was rebuild using more common GM parts, including the input shaft, spline count means absolutely nothing, count rotations! |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Mar/27/2020 at 8:43pm
So what you are saying is the 1968 and prior T-10's that AMC used (the 2.43 and 2.64 ratios) did NOT have the high nickle gears? Just trying to understand what is being said here. ------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Mar/28/2020 at 7:19am
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From my understanding, this is many years ago, AMC started using the Gen 1 BW T10 at the same time they started using the 390 and the Hurst shifter. This combination was not just a coincidence. The only real difference between the Gen 0 and Gen 1 was the change to high nickel gears, higher load bearings, better shaft materials, better syncro materials/design and some new ratios offered.
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Posted By: bvpotash1
Date Posted: Mar/28/2020 at 8:19am
| Auto Gear in Syracuse NY has parts for most manual transmissions in stock |
Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Mar/28/2020 at 12:44pm
I don't mean to be beating this to death but I am seriously considering putting a 2.64 T-10 in my Machine. But all I've read on this forum is that the 390 will tear that choice up with any kind of "spirited" driving. That's why your comments are so intriguing. The 409 Chevys came with T-10's from '61 to '63 and I can't recall the 409's taking out the T-10 like the Mopar Max Wedge's did. Just trying to get factual info to try to make an informed decision. Thanks for continuing the conversation! ------------- Roger Gazur 1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
Posted By: easydean
Date Posted: Mar/28/2020 at 1:04pm
| I have a 2:64 tranny here with no marks on the shaft - I pulled the cover and counted the teeth. |
Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Mar/28/2020 at 2:32pm
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The problem with the late 60's and early 70's T10 transmissions is that they could be rebuilt with early 60's parts. They are sloppier and weaker. You would be very hard pressed chewing up a T10 built with 9310 nickel gears and associated parts of the late 60's - early 70's AMC. On the GM Super T10 they marked the gears with a spot drill mark. No such luck on the AMC. If your going to put the T10 behind the 390, get one that you know has not been touched, get one from a trusted re-builder that states they have put in the high nickel alloy gears and associated "better" parts or get it rebuilt with the better parts right from the get go.
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Posted By: amc67rogue
Date Posted: Mar/30/2020 at 12:57pm
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Back in 74 I made my own T10-W. I used a 20 tooth main drive gear from a AMC T10-T. Bought a T-10 W cluster gear. I got 2nd & 3rd. from a GM. T-10 S. Used it my drag car, never had a problem . ------------- Keith Coggins 67Rogue X code |
Posted By: 5150Javelin
Date Posted: Jul/31/2020 at 4:35pm
| I have a 69 Javelin 390. T-10P-1B After engine build I had at Shop for fine tuning and dual carb adjustment. They had on dyno, hit critical speed, and blew up drive shaft which took out tail housing of trans, broke the dog ear off from of trans where it bolts to Bell Housing and on opposite side broke bell housing where bolts screws in. Unknown if the output shaft or differential is damaged. I read this post. Bottom line, what is best? Stay with the T10, if I can find one and I will post on forum for one, or do I go with the T-5. Will a T-5 bolt in without modification? I assume will need a new shifter, as the hertz won't work. Will shifter on T-5 align with current opening for the hertz shifter? Thanks for the input. |
Posted By: 1970390amx
Date Posted: Jul/31/2020 at 6:59pm
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A t-5 will only work if you want to drive around and not beat on it. They are not that strong. There are aftermarket transmission manufactures that can build you a 5 speed that will work, expect to pay for it. ------------- 1970 390 4speed Bittersweet shadow mask AMX 1970 Amx missing most everything, or in a box |