Front end similarities hornet/concorde/eagle?
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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: Transmission & Drivetrain
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Topic: Front end similarities hornet/concorde/eagle?
Posted By: Malatrix
Subject: Front end similarities hornet/concorde/eagle?
Date Posted: Jun/12/2019 at 10:30am
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I've got a '72 Gremlin and I want to know if it's possible to swap in the front drivetrain of an Eagle. I think having a Gremlin is cool, but being able to say it's AWD and have better traction in the wet is cooler. especially around where I live, the asphalt substrate is awful so everyone in a 2wd car spins tires everywhere when it rains. I've read that the Eagle is the 4wd version of the Concord, which was essentially a facelifted Hornet. I've even seen Eagle Kammbacks which look more or less like the last gremlins. Is the axle/subframe from an eagle able to bolt in or at least line up to the early gremlin/hornet body/frame? |
Replies:
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/12/2019 at 11:30am
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No. The floor pan is TOTALLY different, the seat mounting especially on the SX4 is very different, the front cross member is VERY different. Your floor would be among the biggest obstacles. There is not room for the Eagle stuff under other AMCs. The transfer case won't fit. What you read is a grossly over-simplified version. And no the Concord isn't just a face-lifted hornet - there were other changes. The Eagle also requires a larger wheel opening in the fender - AMC had to stretch the wheel opening forward about an inch or so to compensate for the wide wheel swing-out on turns. The first year they left Concord fenders on Eagle - and ended up with thousands of rolled fender lips as the tires would swing out and fold the front fender lip inward behind the trim. So the fenders are different because the wheels make a wide swing to compensate for the CV joint near the outer end of the axle. Different cross members, different lower control arms, different steering knuckles, engine sits a tad right of center, different floor pan, if it's a stick you have to use hydraulic clutch as there is zero room for clutch linkage so you have a clutch master cylinder and a clutch slave cylinder. Eagles are heavy so you need better springs. I think the SX4 is about 3200 or 3300 pounds with the sedan and wagon even more. And that's with a SIX. You would need an entire donor Eagle - and you'd need to either use the Eagle floor or do a lot of fabricating to make things fit. One comparison is that look at the console and rally gauges for Spirit vs. Eagle - Spirit has two rows of two gauges - not enough room in Eagle due to the very high floor hump so they had to do one row with all four gauges in Eagle. The front differential hangs from the engine mount brackets in Eagle - there isn't a "frame" to transfer. There are three brackets - the third that bolts to the Eagle block on the left side near the back supports the pinion to keep it level, the differential is otherwise held up to the engine by the engine mount brackets that bolt to the block - so you have to have an Eagle block to get the provisions to bold the pinion support up - or fabricate something really stout. -------------  http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: Malatrix
Date Posted: Jun/12/2019 at 11:59am
| Okay, I guess if it were remotely easy, there would be plenty of people already doing it. Thanks for the info! |
Posted By: MacGyver
Date Posted: Jun/12/2019 at 8:34pm
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I can't speak for a Gremlin, but I did do that conversion on a Spirit!! The single biggest modification was the transmission tunnel!! But almost everything else was a simple bolt-in!! I did have a donor Eagle... Cut out the transmission tunnel portion of the floor, and welded it into the Spirit!! Reinforced the unibody structure with some subframe connectors to stiffen things up a bit, because Eagle's do have a few different strengthening "ribs" in the floor that the Spirit didn't have.... Swapped the complete front crossmember out of the Eagle into the Spirit and it bolted right in!! Everything below the upper control arms is Eagle... Everything above is Spirit.... I used the original Spirit coil springs and it worked just fine! In fact, I had to add a couple of leafs to the rear springs to raise the rear to match the front!! I had no problem with the seats... Quick and easy mod and they fit perfect!! I would love to do this to a Gremlin!!! But I'm guessing that since AMC hadn't yet thought about putting 4wd under their small car platform back in '72, many of the handy already threaded holes I used to bolt Eagle stuff up to the Spirit might not exist on a Gremlin! ------------- You Drive A What?!? |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/12/2019 at 8:48pm
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So how did you handle the fender differences? Smaller tires? Because the front tires WILL rub on Concord fenders. That's why AMC changed them in 81. Of course the rear differential is a matter of moving it UNDER the leaf springs like Eagle instead of over the springs like all others. I assume you had an automatic otherwise you'd have to change the clutch pedal because Eagle was different - for the hydraulic clutch. You obviously used the Eagle engine in order to have a pan clear the cross member (Eagle PAN is very different and the oil pump pickup screen is very different - longer) and to have the provision to bolt on the pinion brace. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: MacGyver
Date Posted: Jun/12/2019 at 10:57pm
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Yes Bill, I know that the fenders are different, but I don't really have that much of an issue with the original Spirit fenders.... No one carries All Terrain tires in the original Eagle size of 195-75-15... I'm running 205-75-15's and yes, they do occasionally rub on the fenders in a hard turn and bump... Nothing major, and it hasn't damaged the tires or fenders yet!! Yes, I had an Eagle donor and used the rear axle also to get the axle UNDER the springs.... Yes... It's an automatic.... Yes... I used the engine out of the Eagle... I still don't understand your issue with the seats.... That was the easiest part of the whole conversion!!! Lopped off a bracket and the seats fit perfect!! Not sure that any of this is actually helping the OP... It WAS about a Gremlin... Sorry about the hijack!! ------------- You Drive A What?!? |
Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Jun/13/2019 at 12:06am
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that's all pretty interesting to know. but ebven tyhe hornets aren't compatible with other hornets. the factory probably viewed their chassis as stamping and systems, not complete welded assemblies as we must. the '70 hornet has a lot of 68, 69 Rambler American in it, literally -- rear panels, gas filler system, various bits here and there. much if it does NOT interchange with 72, which was another engineering change leap. the 82 motor doesn't fit in the 70 hornet, the head hits the heater box. i made that fit with modification. i personally like AMCs engineering because i (think i) understand their small-shop mentality of incremental improvement and make-do. they used a peculiar kind of engineering conservatism that is very 20th century American in approach. it's really evident in the Nash-to-AMC model changes. they fixed the most agregious problems first (the spectacularly crappy threaded lower arm trunnions), tried out things in funny places (1962 195.6 OHV aluminum engine hydraulic lifters are the SAME as 4.0 Jeep lifters 45 years later) and relied heavily on interchangability (not always wisely, i think, as products, but sure handy now for us hobbiests). i've bolted the damnest things into the damnedest cars. the Spirit "looks like" the 1964 01 chassis if you squint at it. some stuff bolts on, some doesn't. lined up in a row (in my head, lol) you can see the progression of changes in the 01 chassis, AMC's most successful product, hands down. it spawned all sorts of good stuff for them. the '68 AMX rear suspension is nearly identical to the '58..'63 American (even the shocks interchange). of course it's a fairly generic design overall. what other manufacturer has a chassis that will accept every engine they made? 195.6, 199, 232, 258, 290, 304, 360, 390, 401, all more or less bolt into the 01 chassis. i love hacking on AMC product. ------------- 1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/13/2019 at 8:50am
Don't forget the original post was NOT about Spirit, which is decidedly different than Hornet and Gremlin of the early years for each. So, you are running with only three anchor points? I know about Eagle - and their seats - it's sort of my specialty and has been for years.......... and I have done a detailed comparison on the seats. The bracket or mounting height is different due to different floors, the lower frames are different, BUT, the rest is mostly the same. For example, you can take the seat backs off an Eagle seat and put on a Spirit seat or take the Spirit seat BACK off and put it on an Eagle seat - assuming you are not trying to mix reclining and base model seats. The mounting point you likely cut off is shown here - it mounts up inside the seat lower frame. So unless you put in provisions up inside the frame, you are using only three of the four mounting points. Doable but personally it's not where I'd go. But maybe you did mount a bracket up inside the seat frame to anchor it to the tunnel. http://theamcforum.com/forum/eagle-sx-4-seat-comparison_topic21931.html" rel="nofollow - http://theamcforum.com/forum/eagle-sx-4-seat-comparison_topic21931.html ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
MacGyver wrote:Posted By: AMXRWB
Date Posted: Jun/13/2019 at 1:04pm
| Malatrix,Buy one of the many fine books on American Motors cars.They will explain in detail the AMC Eagle line. |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/13/2019 at 2:07pm
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The basic engineering of the Hornet/Concord/Eagle (and likewise Gremlin/Spirit/SX/4) chassis/body is pretty much the same. Not identical, but similar enough it's usually not hard to make things work from one to another, with a few exceptions. There were some differences over the years and where things bolt on changed some, but with some modifications you can take most parts from one to another. NOT usually direct bolt-ons, though they are in some cases. Many small, incremental engineering changes as TomJ pointed out. You'll find those changes when you try to bolt something like a 74 front clip to a 71 body. The filler panels (like between radiator support and fenders) and many of the screw holes will have changed, but with a little effort you can make it all work. Not something you want to do for a restored car (again, with some exceptions), but for a driver where you're not concerned so much with being factory correct it's not such a big deal. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: MacGyver
Date Posted: Jun/13/2019 at 9:52pm
Of course!! That's why I said that I couldn't speak for a Gremlin, and also apologized for hijacking the thread!!
NO!! Of course not!! There is NO way I would compromise the safety of anyone traveling in my car!!! I find it a bit insulting that you would assume so!!! I've read your thread about Eagle vs Spirit seats... I know you spent a lot of time documenting the differences between them! But it just doesn't jive with how I was able put Spirit seats in an Eagle with one simple bracket modification! It's a locked thread, so I couldn't ask you any questions there! So I started a new thread with the exact same subject name, hoping you might reply, but you never did.... http://theamcforum.com/forum/eagle-sx-4-seat-comparison_topic97015.html" rel="nofollow - http://theamcforum.com/forum/eagle-sx-4-seat-comparison_topic97015.html Please insult me on that thread, not this one! Again, I apologize to the original poster, for getting things so far off track!! Mac. ------------- You Drive A What?!? |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/13/2019 at 10:23pm
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I asked only because you said something about it being a simple matter of cutting a bracket. You didn't mention how you rigged that front center point. That's all. I didn't see any further than cutting - (and frankly, it scares me what I see some folks putting out there as ok mods to brakes, suspension and other stuff- just plain scary - I didn't know your work from adam (or george? or Eve?) and didn't see the final result posted in this thread - so maybe I assumed, too - if indeed, sorry! the seat height will be different than the SX4 seat ASIDE from that front center mount point because the other bracket height is different - not that it can't fit because they are the same otherwise. They changed the height and had to tuck the front center anchor point up inside the seat frame (aside from the other height changes. I haven't taken measurements of the floor areas but it sure feels like Eagle wagons are different - the seats are different for sure as I've seen people take seats from bigger cars into the Eagle without major work. Won't see that with an SX4 It would seem that the SX4 is unique among Eagle. You feel like you are sitting lower in the car, IMO - I've owned two of each - more if you count scrap cars. they sit differently inside. I'd never have seen the other thread as there's no alert for new threads and if it was started last fall I was neck deep in dealing with Dad's death, the estate - and trying to get my brothers to be realistic about real estate sales in my home town (where values SUCK) - I wasn't around much for a while after July last year. Back on the SX4 - the SX4 floor appears to be more radical and even different from sedan because the carpet for the Eagle "two door" doesn't fit the SX4 worth a #%@# especially the seat area on back. Radical cuts needed with carpet tape (that doesn't stick with the corners and turns needed) 4 wheel drive Gremlins - I saw one in SD - it was put on a Jeep chassis if I recall - full-framed. That was my guess, drove past it on a highway up there. Lots of work but rather cool. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/14/2019 at 11:12am
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I will be checking out MacGyver's post about his seat experience - I just got a fast glance last night late but think it may bear merging into the seat discussion I started - and specify that the post I made may apply mostly to SX4 - which was the intent because it is the closest relative to the Spirit. He's got pictures and info there worth saving as we've been asked before about "what seats will fit" and what will not. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/14/2019 at 11:50am
I don't think there was an insult coming from billd. Really, billd comes off pretty straight forward with his facts, and wont deviate until proven otherwise. Thus he may come off a wee harshly because of it. Though, its when someone states the wrong way or a not so safe method, as being a way to do things, he will clearly try to stop it in its tracks when noticed. From past experiences, he questions in background as he processes through the facts first. Low and behold, he will grasp all angles, and may even change his mind a time or two. Even though your info does not pertain to the thread directly, nobody should fully discount sharing the various modification options on AM small body cars. Some things are clearer with closely matched years on bodies than others. Though the only question that makes me wonder, but is just out of curiosity... is, the lack of fender rub, billd has explained. The only thing i can fathom, is that Eagle has a different suspension hump angle or wee change for the 4x4 needs of the body. I learned from my suspension mod thread, that a minor change to move the angle of the spring, by pushing the UCA out 1" at the bottom end of the suspension hump, so it will allow the spring to kick out near the hub, and relieve some pivot angle at the spring saddle. Most 4x4 trucks have some extra spring angle (compared to cars), on higher rate lift, bigger wheels and tires, as the lower arm is more angled down, the UCA must move further down as well. Not saying that is exactly that, but the humps position in any direction within limits, may allow for less rub on modding small body cars, when converting over to Jeep Eagle front clip. There may not be any changes by the factory on Jeep Eagle suspension humps, compared to AM car bodys, but just saying what I suspect from my findings with my mods. Not stating any facts, but making thoughts to why rub is less of an issue when modding a small body car in such away. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/14/2019 at 12:15pm
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dude - the wheel base width is interesting on Eagle - when lining up my ramps I have to account for the WIDER front wheel span compared to the rear so am working on the outside half of the ramps for the front wheels while the rears track more to the center or inner parts of the ramps. Because of the CSV joints JUST inside the SAI line (the line through the center of the upper joint straight down to the center of the lower joint) When I say JUST inside, it's almost not - it's about in the SAI line as well. That way when you turn the joint is flexing close to center. Anyway, to do this, the hubs have to protrude quite a bit outward - to allow that joint to about intersect the SAI line through the ball joiints. This means the front wheels are moved OUTWARD from the ball joints. That means when you turn, the front wheels actually make a pretty fair OUTWARD arc. They don't pivot on the tire, the tires swing out. There's a lot they had to stuff in there. It worked GREAT - but AMC soon found that the wider swing the Eagle front tires made rubbed on the fender. Now more folks say - you're full of it - they all LOOK FINE. Well, they DO unless you stick your head into the wheel well and look BEHIND the wheel well filler trim piece - that wide piece they designed to fill the gap when they raised the car. The tires pulled the edge or lip of the fender back to the middle of the car and rolled it around, not touching the outer trim or filler. So you'll never know unless you work on these cars like I have. The 80 I sold - ask Dave about the fender lips ahead of the front wheels. This is why AMC only used the concord fender one year - 1981 they switched fenders and opened that opening up a fair amount. (I have a post about the fenders) In fact, they added 1.5" to the front of the opening meaning the fender from front edge to wheel well opening is 1.5" LESS. So trim and other stuff won't work, either. 1.5" is a lot - AMC must have had some troubles to make that change - especially a 1.5" change. As far as insult - no, you are correct - and MAYBE, just MAYBE, getting to know me a bit more. I was curious, wondering, and didn't see how it was FINALLY resolved.  ........ and try to type that fast and keep up and make any sense...... ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/14/2019 at 12:49pm
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Billd, having no clue to where the rub hits the inner finder... where is it mostly located? Front, rear? There is one part i left out on modding... assuming, if one does it, and is highly doubtful on small bodies. To remove front of the wheel arc tire rub, one can modify upper control arm placement 1" towards the firewall. My guess, if the requirements for Eagles needed some additional geometery, there would be one of three different changes only on 81 on up eagles. These changes would be one of the following... a different suspension hump, or a different panel between suspension hump and firewall, or different UCA. All the parts would have their own different part number aside from AM cars. The easiest way to eliminate changes done to the body panels, the first two listed in possible changes. Is to measure and compare suspension hump at the UCA bolt to the firewall, between both Eagle and Hornet or Spirit. If there no change, then UCA may be different if Jeep required the change on the Eagle. But if UCA part numbers are the same between Spirit and Eagle, then there was no additional changes done to the body panels for the suspension travel on Eagles. Meaning billds information on tire rub should hold true on Spirit and Hornet bodies, when converting to Eagle suspension and drive train. Just pointing out thoughts as to the possiblity of small body AM cars not having tire rub, since the areas i pointed out could be over looked for argument sake. For what i know, such changes would be additional production cost, that engineers figured was not necessary, compared to a fender change. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/14/2019 at 1:26pm
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When turning the wheels swing out wide forward. The rub was the front part of the wheel opening. It literally rolled the lip back at the FRONT of the wheel opening. With larger tires I bet it really caught badly, stock tires likely just enough to bend that fender flange in and forward as the wheel swung INWARD. In this picture my yellow line and hand-drawn line represent the CONCORD and SPIRIT fender and the 1980 Eagle (ONE YEAR ONLY) fender. This picture shows the back side of an EAGLE fender - the part IN FRONT of or ahead of the wheel. Again, the yellow is where Concord and Spirit would be. The right part of the fender in the photo is the front of the car. This is a RIGHT fender for an SX4 that I patched by attaching an unrusted small section onto an unrusted fender that had rust and damage ahead of the wheel. (so I made a rust-free fender) Again, the yellow represents the Concord and Spirit wheel opening ahead of the wheel, right is front of car, left is rear of car so you are looking at the BACK of the fender and the right front wheel opening is on the left of the photo. This area shown is 1.5" more narrow than the Concord or Spirit fender. The yellow arrow points to the lip that gets literally folded back inward and ahead as the tire pushes in and forward as you turn. This lip if shown on a 1980 Eagle fender would be folded or rolled back and pushed ahead. You don't see it though because that large wheel well trim covers this lip.  ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/14/2019 at 2:16pm
Ah, i had a feeling the front arch would be rubbed. That is why i brought up the mod for placing uca back, though 1" may not totally correct it on hornet and spirit fenders. The trouble that keeps one from making a change to the uca position, is that the hump and other components need moved and modded. But, since the front clip will be replaced, the extra work and all would be something to add in the 4x4 setup. Though there is too little room in the small car body to shift things about, like i have started on with the bigger bodied Javelin. Gosh billd, it took me three replies to think of this... JavJav has been working on tubular upper control arms, similar to Control Freaks... if his incorporates upper ball joint location changes to place positive castor at the upper ball joint, instead of it all at the strut rod. It may help with such an Eagle front end swap to other small bodies. Though it may be limited in fully resolving the rubbing issue, but is better than allowing it to its full potential on damage to the fender lip. Maybe you can test a set on your SX/4 for how the wheel and tires kick out on turns under the wheel arch... I assume the kickout will be more centered in the arch, and have less of an issue, though you have an 81, and you prefer to keep it mostly stock. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/14/2019 at 2:47pm
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My red baby is 82...... I currently have an 83 in my shop to rebuild the brakes and front end, and get that stupid 1980 engine someone put in it connected CORRECTLY, installing a NOS engine bay wiring harness and rebuilding the interior. Now the fun part - next month I am likely getting ANOTHER SX4 for MY stable of AMCs. I know it needs front brake line work - unsure if it's hoses or lines or both - but the brakes are gone, the guy said the front brakes need lines, so take that for what it's worth. When I dig into it all bets are off other than I MUST maintain it as an automatic due to my wife's handicap and license restriction requiring an automatic, power steering and power windows (don't even tell her that she can't drive a stick, though, she drove my 1936 F20 and my Jeep Comanche which was a T5 - but the law would nail her little butt if she was caught) So I don't know what work the other SX4 needs other than brake work - lines and/or hoses, don't know condition of steering or suspension. It HAD BEEN a daily driver up until a few years ago. It's been parked a couple of years. It's 258 automatic, I may change that to a 4.0 so my wife can drive it more easily - fuel injection, etc. But the 4x4 stuff WILL STAY IN PLACE and be maintained as is. No stupid straight axle, no cutting and chopping, if it won't bolt in, it ain't gonna happen. These cars are RARE as it is and the value keeps going up (slowly, but up none-the-less) Anyway, no worries on any 1981 and later Eagle because AMC fixed that little fender bobble by adding MORE than enough clearance for the tires on turns. 1.5" is generous considering it just didn't clear and it wasn't off by any 1.5". Good grief, that will mean THREE Eagles on my property again until I get the blue one finished for the lady. Then there will be two - both mine. All I need to do with my red baby is rebuild/restore the front differential and put CORRECT springs in it so it's not so high that it shoves the shocks outward and stresses those CV joints. They run at a steep angle as it is. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Jun/14/2019 at 3:28pm
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Ah, 82... after you refreshed my mind, doh! Where did I get 81? Explaining 81 on up alot from you probably made 81 pop out of my head. Dont mind my nattering about figuring out what can relieve the fender issues with Hornet or other small body cars when swapping out with Eagle components. Just trying to help with ideas on that part for those now learning about fender rub due to how the steering travels with the cv. Not sure if the CV will get overly abused by the upper ball joint move on the UCA with modded Hornet/Spirit bodies, but thats why i popped the idea about testing how the change effects the steering, and of all things... i bet you probably would test the suspension and cv angles while your looking, thus no additions when stating my first thought. Many things are a given with you, from my prospective. It use to suprise me, now I have come to not question your processes. You rarely leave much for anyone to fill in the blanks, unless you ask directly. Hehehehehehehe! Glad to see you found another addition... it must be pretty good, not to pass up, especially after all the rusted out ones you shared, and from your neck of the woods. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: MacGyver
Date Posted: Jun/18/2019 at 10:39pm
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You guys certainly like to analyze stuff more than I care to!! I'm with Tom and Frank... I just sort of went with what I know about AMC being the kings of interchangeability, and assumed that they wouldn't make two completely different floor pans and two completely different seat frames on what was basically the exact same platform for all Eagle models.... I can only speak from my own experience.... I took what seemed like hundreds of measurements, and tons of pictures of both car's floor pans and crossmember mounting points for comparison before I even chalked out a cut or drilled out a single spot weld on either car!! After I DID cut, the Eagle transmission tunnel dropped right on the Spirit floor like a glove!!  ------------- You Drive A What?!? |
Posted By: MacGyver
Date Posted: Jun/18/2019 at 10:45pm
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You'll notice in that pic, that I even left a couple of tabs on my cut that kept the original seat mounting holes.... They lined up too... After that whole piece was welded in, the Spirit seats (without that bracket extension) bolted right in just like (I assumed) AMC intended!! The seats aren't too high... Too low... They sit in the car exactly like they did when they were in the Spirit!! Don't know what to tell you.... It worked for me.... Mac. ------------- You Drive A What?!? |
Posted By: MacGyver
Date Posted: Jun/18/2019 at 11:02pm
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As for the fender dimensions... Yes... I would love to have an extra 1-1/2" for bigger tires!! (I measured the difference at 1" myself... But maybe I wasn't accurate enough?) Every Eagle I've had, I could run 215-75-15's with minimal rubbing with original saggy springs!! This car I was stuck with 205's because, yes, the 215's wanted to destroy the fenders! In the interest of full disclosure, I did dial back the caster a tad to minimalize any rubbing issues... Again... I'm sorry if it doesn't work on paper.... It worked for me... And I think it turned out darn nice!!!  ------------- You Drive A What?!? |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/18/2019 at 11:09pm
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It should - because as I pointed out - the seats have the same mounting points save for the front center on each seat. To do that the floor pans would have to be at least very similar if not the same in the other three mounting points for each seat, same relative horizontal plane as well as vertical plane otherwise the other three mounting points would have to be different. Since the only difference is the height of the brackets (slight difference in height only) and the front tunnel mount, that tells us the floors of the Spirit and Eagle are pretty similar - the same in most spots. But again, we're talking Spirit and Eagle........ Dash is the same - showing the firewalls at or near the top are the same (minor differences for clutch cylinder mounting point), sill plates interchange across two door models, hoods, hatch, side glass..... same. the two door sedan seems to be different from the hatchback models - carpet for a sedan doesn't fit a hatchback for !##!. Not even close behind the middle of the front seats. (carpet fitting in an Eagle is a pain to begin with but add to that the limited options and it's no fun at all) I've pointed out the seat frame - mounting rails differences, they are different as can be seen in the photos. Spirit vs. Eagle - lower frame is quite different in shape, etc.. Look at the photos again and tell me the Eagle seat outer mounting provision isn't taller - and the frame height different, the shape of the frame different. Yeah, they DID make different seats. Can you make them work - yeah. But they aren't the same. The outer mount of the Eagle had to change to raise the seat up enough to clear the tunnel! If you put that Eagle seat in a Spirit it would sit a bit higher. They had to change the seat frame and make the outboard mount taller or the seat couldn't have cleared the tunnel. The seat BACKS are identical - one will transfer directly to the other (assuming same seat type) but I found the seat bottom upholstery is a bit different for Eagle, the lower edge and trim a bit different due to the height in the car. I have NOS Eagle upholstery and I have Spirit seat parts - and they don't interchange well.  But again - this was never about Spirit or the later AMCs, it was about the earlier cars - a different car - the Gremlin. We were never asked about Spirit........... ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/18/2019 at 11:23pm
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Fenders - I laid one over the other, took many measurements as I was trying to determine the differences to see if a NOS Concord/Spirit fender I had could be easily fit to a NON-1980 Eagle. Nope. Too much difference. I had both side-by-side, on top of each other. That's how I came up with the differences. I even wondered about some creative cutting, etc. No one is saying your car/project didn't turn out fine - or even better than fine. Just that in the interest of facts, parts comparisons and so on people come here to do research, find out what interchanges, what doesn't, what differences are - so the fender thing is a HUGE discussion now and then in the Eagle forums and FB pages. It keeps coming up so I decided to settle it - here are the fender facts, the how and why, what years work, don't work and why. I guess you have the only 1980 Eagle SX4 in existence - you could fool a lot of folks because it has the 1980 only bumper and bumper trim style on an SX4 type car. Here is a small stack of fenders I was comparing - Concord and Eagle. I had several of each in my garage and took them into my shop for detailed measurements....... I put them up on stands and saw horses and spent a ton of time measuring. I still have a number of used and NOS body parts hanging on walls - quarter panels, fenders and so on...  ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/18/2019 at 11:32pm
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PS - this needs to be said directly - MacGyver did a bang-up job on that floor and the car looks really nice from here. Pretty cool. It's a car on my bucket list to see in person, honestly. To transplant a floor piece like that is no small feat and it looks sharp. Much better than those who take a decent Eagle and hack it to bits to make a Spirit out of it - ugh, what a waste. If ya want a Spirit, BUY a bloody Spirit but don't hack up a rare car to make one. On the other hand - salvaging Eagle parts like this - gotta say, pretty cool and a ton of work to be sure. So regardless of the technical back and forth - kudos. Nicely done - and thanks for the pic of the floor - that speaks nicely. ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Jun/19/2019 at 12:54am
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NICELY DONE!!! lol yes, you have to Become One with the metal to puzzle out, bassackwards, how cheapskate AMC saw things. they'll change the damndest-seeming things to avoid changing something that looks simple. you KNOW there must be a reason but the data's not in the metal or the TSM. it might have been in the rail container full of them still in stock, or something. everything interchanges! except when it doesn't -- PACER. MATADOR. oopsie. the 70s and 80s got very baroque to me, i know nothing of them. that you did this in that era is fairly amazing. ------------- 1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
Posted By: MacGyver
Date Posted: Jun/19/2019 at 8:23pm
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Thanks for the kudos guys!! That really means a lot to me!! I need to mention, Bill... In no way am I trying to discount or discredit your research, comparisons or measurements or any of that stuff!! I know you spent a lot of time on that, and it's really good info for people looking into working on these cars!! I sort of side stepped the SX/4 part of the equation, and used a wagon floor piece in my Spirit, so all bets are off after that, I guess!! LOL! I never even removed any of the seats (Eagle or Spirit) from their sliders, so in all honesty, the pics you posted are WAY deeper into the seats than I ever got!! But it's THIS:
This is exactly why I think I came off so harshly in the beginning!!! It confuses me!! WHY?? I just can not figure out why AMC would change the floor in just ONE model of the Eagle, AND manufacture a completely different seat base to accommodate that change!?! Why would they??? I like Tom's term of "cheapskate AMC"!!  It doesn't really make sense for a company that had been pinching pennys for years to do such a thing!!! Would that not add to the cost of manufacture?? I guess we'll never know!!! ------------- You Drive A What?!? |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jun/20/2019 at 6:20am
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They generally didn't change much, just what HAD to be changed to make a meaningful alteration. I wouldn't be surprised if the Eagle and Concord floors weren't the same die with an addition laid inside the Concord floor die to make the Eagle floor. Might be two different dies, but wouldn't be hard to make an insert for the additional hump in the Eagle and stamp a run of floors, then remove and stamp Concord floors. Makes me wonder if they did that or ponied up the dough for a second die! The main issue with fenders is replacements. I suspect AMC stamped Concord fenders then had a second die that just altered the wheel opening and flared the fenders, but that's just a guess. It would be a lot of work to hand alter a fender now, but if you had a big press and die and a fresh off the press non-painted fender to work with... Again, this alteration work for the Eagle is pure speculation on my part. They made enough Eagles over the eight year run that a couple Eagle specific dies for the floor panel with the hump and a whole fender die would have made sense. That's only two Eagle body specific dies, which is just a drop in the bucket for all the body dies needed. Of course there are a few other body stampings that are Eagle specific, but as noted by all most of the body stampings are shared with Concord. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Jun/20/2019 at 7:33am
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I just want to say that I fell victim to the fender differences myself too! Bought a bare NOS fender at the last Homecoming show and thought it would work on my Concord. Turned out to be an Eagle fender. So.. I have an NOS Eagle fender to trade for a bare/really nice Concord fender to anyone interested! Sigh....
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Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jun/20/2019 at 9:25am
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Is it a right fender? Still looking for NOS right fender. Anyway - here we go on the all the speculation and guess as to what they did and why or what they didn't do and why. this is why AMC people have arguments over what's right and proper, trouble judging at shows and other issues. AMC didn't use whatever was in a scrap heap to get by and it's counter-productive to keep guessing and speculating as to what dies and presses they had set up. We are about facts - not guessing. so unless we can demonstrate what they did or didn't do - please, don't suggest "maybe they just put this on a die or press to......." As far as Eagle - we can counter some of the BS speculation as to how they may or may not have simply added a part to a press or die by stating - factually - that with Eagle, it was the first time in company history that they could not keep up with orders for new cars. In fact, they kept things running pretty steady and were still months behind. This has been documented in books about Eagle (and other papers) so to simply toss something together for Eagle makes no sense - but then that's speculation about what they did or didn't do. But there is proof in numbers and historical records and books - and personal experience - that AMC could not keep up with new car orders for EAGLE. I waited three months and then I suspect what the dealer did was take a car off their lot and add the options we wanted. They kept trying to talk us into other cars because they couldn't get our order through. We ordered in early December - didn't get a car until into February. >> I just can not figure out why AMC would change the floor in just ONE model of the Eagle, AND manufacture a completely different seat base to accommodate that change!?!<< I MAY be able to help with that - roof slope, head-room. The SX4, like the Spirit, has the same door skin as a sedan - but the window frame is installed differently. It's got a different "slant" to it. so there was higher clearance in the wagon and sedan. You can get by with bigger and different seats in the wagon and sedan. You have more height inside, floor to roof. I have been told that you can't fit a Gremlin door to a SX4 or Spirit without changing the window setup. It still wasn't big bucks for AMC because the lower seat frame is cheap and the mod was simple. The backs are identical Spirit to SX4 - just the base is different. And I know of wagon owners who have taken sets from other vehicles and mounted them with little trouble - they had the HEIGHT inside. And as MacGyver found - the floor pan is made of several different parts over-lapped and spot welded together so it wasn't a huge big stamping to change - they changed only one area of the floor - the rear floor pan SECTIONS are likely the same. No big deal. But let's stop making folks laugh at us by guessing and speculating as to what AMC did. It's just keeping alive all the BS out there about cheap AMC just tossing in whatever they had - which we know is BS. They were indeed a modern car company - everyone in the 80s faced CAFE, EPA and other regs. It almost killed Chrysler and GM made some pretty nasty stuff then, too. They just had the cash to survive their mistakes. Size matters. Here's an example of a floor panel joint - the panel in the upper right is the front part of the floor pan where your feet would go. My "guess" is that this is the same between Spirit and SX4. the other part - lower in the picture, is where the HUMP for the transmission and transfer case is. Then there's another section behind that for where the rear seats are - again, I "bet" or "guess" this is the same Spirit to SX4 And there's ANOTHER joint in the hatch area. (I have a lot of pics of Eagle stuff) What this means - only a small section of the floor was made specific to SX4 - the other sections could be the same. There, no need for expensive retooling, no guessing "they just added this to the die". They simply had at least FOUR parts to the floor and only one of them needed to change. </end-guessing>  ------------- http://theamcpages.com" rel="nofollow - http://theamcpages.com http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com |
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Jun/20/2019 at 9:28am
It's a Driver's side!
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