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Rear wheel wobble...

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: Transmission & Drivetrain
Forum Description: If it's between the engine and wheels, it goes here
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=100251
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 2:41pm
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Topic: Rear wheel wobble...
Posted By: amx73
Subject: Rear wheel wobble...
Date Posted: May/28/2019 at 12:44pm
So, I had my 71' AMX out all weekend, and it ran great. But, at a stop light someone pulled up next to me and said my passenger side rear wheel was wobbling. I didn't feel anything while driving the car. Slight vibration under heavy braking. I re torqued the lug nuts, didn't notice anything out of sorts. What could I be missing?
 
Jake


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Red means run son, numbers add up to nothin'!



Replies:
Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: May/28/2019 at 12:47pm
Bent wheel?  Otherwise Id be looking at the hub, and the axle.....makes me wonder if the hub is loose or starting to spin? Or possibly a broken belt in the tire?


Posted By: amx73
Date Posted: May/28/2019 at 12:59pm
Running 15x8 Mini lite wheels with fairly new BFG radial TA tires. I did do one burn out in the driveway a few weeks ago, and the passenger side rear tire, she was a smoking! Might have started to spin the hub?  

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Red means run son, numbers add up to nothin'!


Posted By: amx73
Date Posted: May/28/2019 at 1:00pm
If it was an issue with the hub, or axle wouldn't I feel that at speed?

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Red means run son, numbers add up to nothin'!


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: May/28/2019 at 1:19pm
It wouldnt hurt to check, and retorque if it has not been done for some time. Even when not hard on the axles, one will loosen eventually. When i took my axles apart, one was loose enough to use my hand tools to remove, while the other was removed with a press.


Also it wouldnt hurt to take your wheel in and have it checked for balance. Throwing a weight will cause wheel wobble, and depending on how bad on out of balance, won't be noticable until at highway speeds.




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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: JGRANTAMX
Date Posted: May/28/2019 at 1:22pm
Put the rear up on jack stands and with the car running in low or 1st gear watch the wheel for wobble.


Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: May/28/2019 at 2:22pm
Raise back of car so tire is a few inches above the ground. Put a "pointer" close to the surface of the suspect wheel near the rim bead, with trans in neutral slowly rotate wheel by hand, making sure you push on the wheel toward the center of the car to eliminate axle play. If distance between the pointer and the wheel face (bead)  by the tire varies much you either have a bent wheel, a bent or untrue hub or bent axle.
Remove the wheel and check for lumps of something between the wheel and the hub.
do the same thing against the hub with the pointer. if that varies you've begun to narrow it down.


good luck


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70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972


Posted By: Greyhounds_AMX
Date Posted: May/28/2019 at 6:58pm
Block the front wheels, jack it up, start it up, put it in drive, and see if it wobbles.

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1968 AMX 390 w/T5


Posted By: amx73
Date Posted: May/28/2019 at 7:30pm
oh it’s wobbles alright. Both sides! But, I figured out why.
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/rockdoktor/media/7F4AE093-E2C8-4D4C-B77A-A5419075FA14_zpsbd5rqcws.jpeg.html" rel="nofollow">
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/rockdoktor/media/A89541C5-E06F-447C-9995-F7E5B96B4954_zpsjhhmzwra.jpeg.html" rel="nofollow">



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Red means run son, numbers add up to nothin'!


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: May/28/2019 at 7:36pm
Blast! Them wee fasteners... I thought it might have been the weights on the drums, but not all drums have them. Though most wheels will clear the drum weights. You dont need the fasteners, or you can counter sink the holes and use a proper screw head if needed.

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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: Jan Phersson
Date Posted: May/28/2019 at 11:58pm


Posted By: george w
Date Posted: May/29/2019 at 5:33am
Some wheels don't provide clearance for the brake drum retaining screws.You can remove the screws so that the wheel will sit flat against the brake drum.

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Long time AMC fan. Ambassador 343, AMX 390, Hornet 360, Spirit 304 and Javelin 390. All but javelin bought new.


Posted By: akimmet
Date Posted: May/29/2019 at 9:47am
You can just eliminate those small bolts, they are only there to keep the drum from falling off on the assembly line. These small bolts don't really serve any useful purpose anymore. Most aftermarket drums that exist for AMC cars don't even bother drilling holes for these bolts anymore.


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: May/29/2019 at 10:20am
You can also used those push-on tin nuts, too....... I've seen enough wheels come off cars along the interstate - and drums slide enough to cause braking loss that I find a way to keep the retainers or replace them with the thin push on jobs. We did 24/7/365 towing with two wreckers - seen almost anything that can happen. IF it was to keep them on during assembly only - they'd use the cheaper push-on retainers and not drill the hubs and drums and install BOLTS. 
Assembly retainers are the thin, cheap, push-on things. 
They'd not waste resources drilling all those threaded holes, holes in drums, and create clearance for the bolt heads in their own wheels if it was for assembly only - they'd have saved over a buck a car on the tin push-on clips. 
When you've pulled in cars that have the drums still on vs. those that have had a drum slide off...... well, I keep the bolts or some sort of retainer personally. Like I say - have seen almost everything come on on the back end of a wrecker.
But it's your call and the "guesses" and majority are obviously against my logic.

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Posted By: amx73
Date Posted: May/29/2019 at 11:32am
The studs go through the drum, and the wheel hold the drum on, why would I need to keep them?

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Red means run son, numbers add up to nothin'!


Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: May/29/2019 at 11:47am
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

You can also used those push-on tin nuts, too....... I've seen enough wheels come off cars along the interstate - and drums slide enough to cause braking loss that I find a way to keep the retainers or replace them with the thin push on jobs. We did 24/7/365 towing with two wreckers - seen almost anything that can happen. IF it was to keep them on during assembly only - they'd use the cheaper push-on retainers and not drill the hubs and drums and install BOLTS. 
Assembly retainers are the thin, cheap, push-on things. 
They'd not waste resources drilling all those threaded holes, holes in drums, and create clearance for the bolt heads in their own wheels if it was for assembly only - they'd have saved over a buck a car on the tin push-on clips. 
When you've pulled in cars that have the drums still on vs. those that have had a drum slide off...... well, I keep the bolts or some sort of retainer personally. Like I say - have seen almost everything come on on the back end of a wrecker.
But it's your call and the "guesses" and majority are obviously against my logic.


Some times I may not sound like I'm not following your logic, and it may seem so with others. Though, when looking at the mini lites back side, i could not tell if the wheel had enough clearance for the flat push on clips. In the past and my present wheel purchases, both wheel sets by different manufacturers allow for push on flat clips or the factory hex head fastener. Both sets of wheels were made for Ford OEM fit for separate older and newer generation cars from 2000 on up to 2015.

Anywho, I was going to state flat clips, but opted into stating counter sink the holes and use a proper fastener for clearance.

Also, usually i do follow your logic, once I see your methods that you share... just simply sound advice that anyone can emplement or not, if they choose to.

Ps, doesnt the axle cotter pin look a bit old and rusty? I did recommend having the axles re torqued. Until i had to remove my hubs from the axles, i realized normal wear and tear will cause one of the axles to loosen. Which i found easy enough to remove with simple hand tools... which shouldnt be so easy. My pins looked in about the same condition, as well.

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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker


Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: May/29/2019 at 2:39pm
So one of my guesses proved correct.

A lump of something between the wheel and drum/hub.

Glad you found an easy solution.


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70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: May/29/2019 at 11:02pm
redundancy is the root of all reliability.



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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: Rogue343
Date Posted: May/30/2019 at 8:04am
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

You can also used those push-on tin nuts, too....... I've seen enough wheels come off cars along the interstate - and drums slide enough to cause braking loss that I find a way to keep the retainers or replace them with the thin push on jobs. We did 24/7/365 towing with two wreckers - seen almost anything that can happen. IF it was to keep them on during assembly only - they'd use the cheaper push-on retainers and not drill the hubs and drums and install BOLTS. 
Assembly retainers are the thin, cheap, push-on things. 
They'd not waste resources drilling all those threaded holes, holes in drums, and create clearance for the bolt heads in their own wheels if it was for assembly only - they'd have saved over a buck a car on the tin push-on clips. 
When you've pulled in cars that have the drums still on vs. those that have had a drum slide off...... well, I keep the bolts or some sort of retainer personally. Like I say - have seen almost everything come on on the back end of a wrecker.
But it's your call and the "guesses" and majority are obviously against my logic.


The push on tin nuts can cause issues as well if the wheel is machined flat such as the one pictured.  The tin nuts will not allow a wheel like that to seat properly against the drum/rotor.  Spent 35 years in the tire industry and when installing any aftermarket wheels always removed those clips, cleaned the mating surfaces, and checked wheel fitment for clearances on all parts before we even mounted a tire.  Never had an issue with wheels coming loose because of it. 


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1967 Rambler Rogue 'X' code 343 4 speed
1966 Rambler American 440 4 door Factory 290 (now 360) 4 speed VIN 100003


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: May/30/2019 at 9:53pm
i run my drums without the little bolts. i figure if all five lug nuts come off, i may have more trouble than the drum coming loose.

it is possible that if the drum is loose enough on the hub, it can get caught off-center when installing a wheel and bend the edges of the drum lug holes. that would be a large issue assembling cars on an assembly line or in fleet service statistics. at this great remove we pay more attention to details than anyone did when these were new.



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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: billd
Date Posted: May/30/2019 at 10:12pm
Check out the TSM - my hard-cover 1974 under "hubs and axles" states "replace brake drum and retaining screws..........." - is that not AMC saying "put them back"?
They also sell tools for removing and re-installing the clips used by GM - I have one of those tools. Bought it when I was in college and they taught us to put those things back.......
If it was "assembly only" - then why three? That's an expense AMC could ill-afford - and only one 1/4" bolt is needed to hold a drum on when putting it in the car at the factory - or shipping them between plants.  Why three if it's assembly only?
the TSM says "replace........", we were taught in college - during the semester on brakes, to replace drum retainers (bolts, nuts, otherwise) but guess work prevails still.
Whatever. 

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Posted By: 990V8
Date Posted: Jun/12/2019 at 1:35pm
Two reasons I can think of to keep them, says he belatedly.
 
First, it's hard to check for brake rub with the wheel off, if there's nothing holding the drum.
 
Secondly, back in the day, the driver has to deal with a puncture, take off the wheel, they might not be aware to check that the drum is properly seated when they fit the spare, perhaps in the dark.
 
Always had retainers in my cars, but they've always been countersinks.
 
Ivor


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63 Canadian Ambo 990 V8 327
Lightweight V8 SIII
Shopping Trolley


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Jun/13/2019 at 12:24am
i admit i leave the little small-head bolts out. (factory wheels have clearance for them, it's only aftermarket wheels that don't) but it is true, checking brake shoe scuff requires it affixed to the hub.

in 1961 my American up on a lift/side of the road flat swap would be one set of circumstances. today, i simply screw on two lug nuts, upside down for that. the metal is the same but circumstances, repair and engineering practice, and car culture have changed.

billd's point is interesting: one little bolt would work; two certainly redundant. why three?! the answer is probably in the culture -- of industry, of users, and everything else. not all engineering practice was sensible -- at least us AMCers aren't burdened with the embarassment/superstition of left-hand-thread lugnuts on the left side of the car.


/does 'replace' mean put them back?/ look! we're already doing archaeology! on stuff we think we know about! lol! many times i'm puzzled by those seemingly obvious statements in the TSM...


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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: 990V8
Date Posted: Jun/13/2019 at 3:24am
Left hand thread.
Ha! I remember that.
 
With knock-off wheels there was good reason for it, any slight slack in the splines and the caps will start to loosen. But with four or five nuts, it does seem rather pointless.
 
My 34 Lanchester had that feature. The beautifully made closed-end nuts - they were visible on the wheels - were marked L and R on the heads.
So did my Silver Shadow. There. the nuts were not marked, and a past owner had muddled the rear hubs so that the left nuts were on the right of the car and vice versa. That was quite troublesome the first time I took the wheels off. Never came loose though.
 
My Landrover has one retainer on each drum. I think the Lanchester had two, but I owned that car a long time ago.
 
Ivor


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63 Canadian Ambo 990 V8 327
Lightweight V8 SIII
Shopping Trolley


Posted By: vinny
Date Posted: Jun/13/2019 at 9:30pm
I can say that after spinning a hub on an AMC 15 with a powerful 196 engine in front that they don't start to spin, they do it instantaneously. 

We rented a Nissan out of SFA and it vibrated a lot. I got my wife to drive in a parking lot while I observed the different wheels from various positions in the car. The right rear had a really good wobble. 



Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Jun/14/2019 at 9:58am
Just a thought, IF the retaining bolts are desirable AND they are interfering with the wheel, why couldn't you machine a shallow relief in the wheels to clear the bolts and everyone is happy?


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Roger Gazur
1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler
1970 RWB 4-spd Machine
1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX

All project cars.

Forum Cockroach


Posted By: martin349
Date Posted: Sep/19/2019 at 4:50am
There may be a confusion whats is wobbling in actual you may test this Block the front wheels, jack it up, start the engine, do some accelerate, and see if it wobbles. i have tested my truck which I use for Nyc Blocked Driveway Towing Service i realized that there was an issue in wheel. 


Posted By: AMXFSTBK390
Date Posted: Sep/19/2019 at 12:02pm
The three rear drum retaining bolts on a 68 AMX are not equally spaced which means the drum bolt holes need to be lined up with the threaded bolt holes. My question is why aren't the bolt holes spaced evenly 120 degrees apart? Does it have to do with keeping everything balanced? Is there and issue when using billet aluminum wheel spacers? Note: the AMX drums seem to be hub centric.

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Questions are powerful tools...what's in your toolbox?


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Sep/19/2019 at 1:05pm
Balance? Think about what's in play - the holes are filled with the bolts. The only weight is the little thin heads of those little quarter inch bolts.  One on one side offsets the weight of part of the pair on the other side (over-simplifying for sure) so you are off how much? Maybe part of the head of one of those bolts? And since they are so close to center they don't have much impact like the same amount of weight if it was out another ten inches. So you have a really tiny amount of weight that's closer to the center than other parts so having minimal impact on balance. 

For me I'm glad they are like they are because when doing brake jobs I knew the drums would always be clocked on the hub the same way in case of any spin-balancing done like we used to do on-the-car balancing. 

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Posted By: AMXFSTBK390
Date Posted: Sep/19/2019 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

 

For me I'm glad they are like they are because when doing brake jobs I knew the drums would always be clocked on the hub the same way in case of any spin-balancing done like we used to do on-the-car balancing. 

Thanks for answering my question.  It may explain why the three drum bolts are not evenly spaced. 


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Questions are powerful tools...what's in your toolbox?


Posted By: 6768rogues
Date Posted: Sep/19/2019 at 11:03pm
If the three bolts are there and they come out without breaking, I put them back. I have found some to be missing and some have broken. If they interfered with aftermarket wheels, I would leave them out. Other brands used push nuts (Tinnerman nuts) and they are intended to hold things together through assembly. Millions of cars have been produced without bolts and I have not seen a spate of lawsuits accusing manufacturers of cutting costs by eliminating the bolts at the peril of vehicle occupants.
If you want to clock the drum as it was with the bolts, I don’t see any reason you can’t do it without inserting the bolts.


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Located usually near Rochester, NY and sometimes central FL.



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