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Power from ignition switch...sometimes? |
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Jfunk378 
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Joined: Apr/30/2015 Location: Louisiana Status: Offline Points: 32 |
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 Topic: Power from ignition switch...sometimes?Posted: May/19/2019 at 7:15pm |
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Car: 1974 Hornet hatchback. 360 automatic.
The first problem: I am not a mechanic. (But I have tools, and I try) The 2nd problem: About 4years ago the ignition lock cylinder got stuck. Could not get the key out, and car would not start. My dad had a tilt column he wanted to put in, so that is what I did. with the tilt column installed I had trouble getting the shift linkage set right. What I found was, the shifter was not putting the transmission all the way in park. I made as much adjustment as I could on the linkage, still no go. Finally I took a look at the linkage rods. The holes were pretty worn out,and seemed to be causing too much play. So I made some “bushings” to take up the slack. Now it shifts each gear reliably, and started reliably. Now for the last few years the car has been in the garage, and has not been driven. This year I finally finished a Wilwood front disc upgrade, and got the car running and stopping great... so I thought. I decided to drive the car to work about a week ago. About a 35 min drive. It did great, and it felt great to finally be back on the road. I got in the car to leave for the day, turned the key and got nothing. Dash lights for alt came on but no starter. I tried to jump start the car. Nothing. Finally a coworker who is a much better mechanic than I came out. He was able to jump the starter solenoid and get the car to start. He suggested it was not getting power from the ignition to the solenoid and to check the switch. So, I took it down poked around mostly blindly (even with the help of a wiring diagram). I reinstalled the switch,hoping to check for power with the key on. Turned the key, and it started. Now scratching my head. I went ahead and replaced the switch thinking maybe it was just on its way out. It was a cheap enough part to gamble with, so why not. New switch in and the car starts every time. Until today. I went for a short drive maybe 10 minutes. Then the car sat in the drive for about half an hour. Got back in for another short drive, and same thing. No go again. Pushed the car into the garbage. A couple hours later went back out. Turned the key. Car started. Now I’m lost. Is it possible the solenoid get hot from temperatures in the engine bay and stops working? All the wires I can see look good. As in no obvious breaks or bad connections. Can anyone help a non-mechanic trouble shoot this. Or anyone have any similar experiences. Please help. I promised my dad I’d take care of his car. I aim to keep that promise.
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7553 |
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Posted: May/19/2019 at 11:32pm |
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first thing i'd do is consult the TSM (factory technical service manual). it's utterly invaluable. they're nothing like junk Haynes manuals, they're actually useful. it's likely the switch linkage is not adjsuted right. are all the other switch positions working? is it physically, crisp? snaps audibly into each position? LOCK, OFF, ON, START? ACC position feel and work right? no wiggling or shaking to make it work? if *only* the START (cranking) position isn't working... then check the neutral safety switch, also on the column. those need adjsutment especially if you've worked on the shifter linkage. in fact the latter is probably your problem. jumper around it for the short term. see if that solves it. |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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304-dude
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Joined: Sep/29/2008 Location: Central Illinoi Status: Offline Points: 9082 |
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Posted: May/20/2019 at 4:18am |
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Could be your neutral safety switch. The most over looked switch, as it is transmisson operated and unseen.
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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
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Jfunk378
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Joined: Apr/30/2015 Location: Louisiana Status: Offline Points: 32 |
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Posted: May/20/2019 at 7:45am |
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Thanks for the reply. I don’t have a TSM. Do you know a good source? I have looked online, seen a few options on eBay. Not sure which to get. Would you have a diagram showing the NSS in the column? I know where it’s located on the transmission, just not sure how it’s routed through the column.
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304-dude
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Posted: May/20/2019 at 8:24am |
I only have a 71 TSM which does not include TC 904 automatic wiring. Depending on your own preference book or computer / tablet, its up to you. A 74 tsm is one of the best offered by amc and fits your needs. Though i can help in testing the switch by having you ohm the NSS ground wire to the starter solenoid. Especially when you can't get the starter to function. It should ohm to 0 when in park or neutral. Sometimes, you can start in neutral when park fails to energize the starter solenoid. If you cant get ground through the ground wire to the solenoid, you can test in neutral with park brake on, and blocked wheels, with ignition in on position, and grounding the ground pin to the solinoid. If you are getting ground in testing with ohm meter on the wire, then it may be the S terminal needing cleaned and the connector verified with conductivity. You should get 12v when someone turns the ingnition switch to start when reading with a volt meter. As long as the S terminal connector is removed from the starter, it is safe from being able to start. |
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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
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Jfunk378
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Joined: Apr/30/2015 Location: Louisiana Status: Offline Points: 32 |
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Posted: May/20/2019 at 9:17am |
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For a TSM I think I’d prefer a book. Of course having it in digital format would be good too. Is there a vendor for that or just eBay?
For testing the NSS wire. Which one should it be at the starter solenoid? One of the problems I’m having is it will work repeatedly while I’m trying to test it. Then for some unknown reason stop working. I cannot find the source to trigger a failure for testing.
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304-dude
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Posted: May/20/2019 at 9:36am |
You could post a want in our wanted section... some have a library of TSM stuff to sell, or will point you to a good source. I havent picked up any TSMs from ebay in a long time, so i have no ebay source to offer. The starter solenoid is near the battery, and has the positive cable attached. The top two connections are: I terminal for ignition, which is power from the iginiton switch to be sent to the coil for quicker starting. S terminal is power from the start position of the ignition switch to energize the starter solenoid, and send power to the starter. The ground terminal on the bottom, has a L shaped plug, and is grounded by the NSS, only in park and neutral. It is required to start the car, as without it, the solenoid will not energize when voltage is applied by the start setting from the ignition switch. If you bypass the ground connection from the NSS, with a wire to ground, and starter cranks when igition key is switched to start, then your trouble is with the NSS circuit. Either the wire or its connector, or tye switch its self. If you cant crank the engine with the ground pin bypassed with a wire to ground, then the trouble is with the S terminal connection plug or wire, or the ignition switch, or it is in need of readjustment on the column, as stated earlier on your first reply. Edited by 304-dude - May/20/2019 at 9:46am |
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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
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Midnight Rambler
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Posted: May/20/2019 at 10:29am |
Exactly what I was thinking. The linkage is a tick off, and in that position the neutral safety switch thinks you're in reverse. Have you shifted down to neutral and tried to start it there when the condition presents? If you turn the key and have access power, you have a good grounded connection. If you can't start in Park but can in Neutral, it's probably the NSS.
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 '66 American 440 Convertible 290/M-40/AMC 20 3.15/PS/PB '04 Jeep Wrangler X Rocky Mountain Edition 4.0 5sp |
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Jfunk378
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Joined: Apr/30/2015 Location: Louisiana Status: Offline Points: 32 |
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Posted: May/20/2019 at 11:49am |
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Yes, I have tried to start in both park an neutral. The frustrating part is each time I try to figure it out it starts working. It’s hard for me to figure out electrical issues in general. It’s even harder when halfway into checking, the darn thing starts working again.
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Jfunk378
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Posted: May/20/2019 at 11:53am |
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Why would it work sometimes and then stop. Then start working again. With no changes to anything. I would think a bad connection would be consistently bad. I have tried jiggling wires to create the problem. Guess I just haven’t found the right wire yet.
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Jfunk378 wrote: