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Plumbing the shop for air

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Wrambler View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wrambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/13/2012 at 7:28pm
Solder fittings?
yea, maybe if you plan ahead and order some.
The big box stores don't have half of them anymore. The guy said the copper thieves and junkies steal them! The junkies can't use a copper fitting with the plastic push inserts. On a Saturday night I had no choice but to install the new hot water tank with the push couplers on copper pipe. Easy enough, time will tell if they are good. The thing is the things work with pex, copper, plastic...stock up if you want to solder.

I had to hit two stores to even get the 3/4 male pipe to 3/4 copper tube fittings in push connection.
Other choice is compression and I would not trust those as far as I could throw them.

Irony? I broke down last year and bought a top of the line Mapp gas torch for soldering, now it will probably see very little use. Angry


Edited by Wrambler - Sep/13/2012 at 7:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcisworthy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/20/2012 at 6:28am
Rapid air looks like a good alternative also. I am going to try it in the near future. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/20/2012 at 7:31am
Originally posted by Wrambler Wrambler wrote:

Solder fittings?
yea, maybe if you plan ahead and order some.
The big box stores don't have half of them anymore. The guy said the copper thieves and junkies steal them! The junkies can't use a copper fitting with the plastic push inserts. On a Saturday night I had no choice but to install the new hot water tank with the push couplers on copper pipe. Easy enough, time will tell if they are good. The thing is the things work with pex, copper, plastic...stock up if you want to solder.

I had to hit two stores to even get the 3/4 male pipe to 3/4 copper tube fittings in push connection.
Other choice is compression and I would not trust those as far as I could throw them.

Irony? I broke down last year and bought a top of the line Mapp gas torch for soldering, now it will probably see very little use. Angry


I hear ya. Some don't even carry certain sizes any more. OThers have a VERY limited selection. I'm buying all I can afford each paycheck as I know when I need them to finish this in the future, the selection will be even worse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FuzzFace2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/30/2012 at 12:12pm
Billd did you look into something like this? http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/RapidAir-M7500/p7618.html
Also what is the spec on the compressor that it keeps up with the blasters? HP of motor (volt/phase), single or duel stage pump, CFM@ 90 psi & CFM@ max psi, max psi.
I need a compressor for home use (read body work/blasing) and like to know what others might be using.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/30/2012 at 11:04pm
I'll look up the specs again. It does run with I do continious blasting - but when I throttle the regulator back to 100 psi, run good clean media (change out when dirty or it's been used a while) and keep the nozzles tuned for the media and pressure, etc.  - it does just fine. I do know it's single stage and 220 -
 
I did consider the "kits" - but when I look at the price, the length of tubing and drops they supply, I can do what I've done for the same money - or less. I've far far exceeded what's in the kits already - I've got more than 3 drops, and with a 30 x 36 building that's 2 stories high (first is actually more than the standard "10' per story" at 14' ceiling) 100' wouldn't go far. For example, going up from the compressor, the over to the south wall, then up to the second floor, across at the ceiling, then down into the dryer, then out to the wall and run 2 drops, I'd take half that kit - or more as I'd have to buy the fittings to get into and out of the filter and oiler, and not have the drains and shut-off valves I have.
So I figured by the time I bought the master kit, all the extras I'd need, etc. - I'd actually spend more that way - and have less features. I've got more shut-off valves, for example, a drain at each drop, take the air off the top of the horizontal runs.
Upstairs, I've got two quick-connects - one on each side of the oiler. So I can plug into one for clean dry air, and the other for when I use a nailer, stapler or whatever and want it oiled a bit. I'll do similar for 2 of the drops downstairs.
The copper allows me to acheive the cooling of the air to remove moisture, and the runs with drains - and tapping off the TOP of the horizontal runs to be more sure that water in a horizontal run keeps on moving downhill to the end - and not into the drop since I take it from the top and actually go UP a few inches before going down. The copper is, at least IMO, also easier to get a slight grade to the horizontal runs to keep any water going the right direction.
Those kits are simple, fast, and probably great for more "simple" systems - I guess I shot for letting nature and physics help keep the air dry.
 


Edited by billd - Sep/30/2012 at 11:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miltonarity1212 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/16/2012 at 11:18am
Hello,
I work in a 2 car garage. My compressor is on the front wall. Line out to a flex line to black pipe up the wall and across the ceiling and down between the 2 garage doors. This is where I have my seperator/regulator/etc... One drop with a dirt leg. I screwed up and used unions and pipe dope and some of my connections lead, but I've heard tell that you need some real distance between the compressor and the seperator to cool the air so that the seperator can do its job and get the moisture out of the air.
Brass would be nice, but you'd need to sweat all those joints and it would be difficult to add stuff later - although the way I'm currently set up, it won't be easy to add stuff either... Whatever you do, don't use plastic.
I have been in shops that only use hose line.

Thanks for read
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wrambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/16/2012 at 6:48pm
Don't worry about minor leaks from threaded pipe joints with air.
rust will seal those.

  I don't have any moisture issues with cast.  I used it because it was heavy and free.

The kits are nice, but I agree with Bill, they fall short of doing large shops or areas that are "interesting".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FuzzFace2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/16/2012 at 10:21pm

Don’t remember where I saw it maybe if you Google air compressor coolers you might find something. But IIRC some used that base board fined heat tubing to cool the air and condense the water piped to a drain leg before the air reached the tools. Other thing I remember was guys using car/truck A/C condenser to do the same thing as the fined tubing. A small fan blowing thru the condenser to help air flow thru it but think did not even need that.

 

I know my old little 30 gal would turn the air hose into a water hose! The filter /dyer at the tank did nothing. I will have to see how this new 80 gal unit is come summer but using it for a full day last week the tank was cool to the touch so I might be ok and just need to drain the tank? When I get more $$ I will get a shop air kit and look into the base board set up. Should be able to pick up some used stuff at the scrap yard I would think?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeremy0711 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/13/2013 at 9:08am
I run an 80 gallon Quincy 5 hp dual stage compressor with a rating of 20.3 cfm? I think that is the what the rating is called. I use 3/4" PCV pipe with industrial water traps and regulators at both ends. You need atleast 25' of line from the compressor to the tool. The more the better you are in controlling moisture. I have that atleast in hard line to each side of the garage. I have an insulated drywalled garage that doesn't sweat and some of your guys are in pole barns that tend to. I know a bunch of guys that have sweating issues with pole barns. My compressor is not in a drafty area of the garage meaning no doors or windows close by so the compressor doesn't drastically change in temp. I also have hose reels at both ends of the garage. I use a Reel Craft brand on one end and a cheapy from Rural King but is the same a Harbor Frieght's version. Name brand or cheapy hose reels all leak when kept above 100 psi for extended periods of time. I have two Reel Craft hose reels and both will leak if kept above 100psi. My only point to this is to turn down your regulators or put in a shutoff valve at the compressor like I do when not in use. Most of the time I shut off the air to the lines but the compressor is left on and ready to go. I also have an industrial regulator at the compressor to lines at 160 psi. It is wide open and I regulate down for the tools. I have had this running for about 7 years atleast minus maybe 2 months as the only time I turn the compressor off is when I am not at home for vacation. I have never had a line break or leak. I love your copper lines but I wouldn't want that cost. I would think the PCV wouldn't sweat as much as the thin metal would to be honest. There are a few different grades of pvc piping too. Larger tank compressors have less water issues. I would think the less effort the compressor works then less moisture so a properly matched compressor is ideal. My 80 gallon is perfect, IMO. Quincy's site suggests twice as much compressor though. Uh yeah, my compressor is about $1000 bucks more now than what it was when I bought it so I couldn't imagine what the cost is now of what they suggested. Moisture traps at the compressor is about useless. There is too much heat and pressure at that point to catch water. Moisture traps need to be atleast 25' away. I sand blast and everything. My compressor will catch up and shut off at 140 psi at the sand blaster. If I paint a car then I use the 50' reel and put down an additional loose 50' hose to paint. The theory is the most distance that you can put between the two. I can DA with about 50' feet of distance and no water issues at all. I don't catch a lot out of the moisture traps to be honest. Sometimes I do, though. I am in the process of setting this up in my new garage. I plan to use pcv piping again. I run a lot of stuff on air and I believe this is probably one of my best investments in the garage. I use air tools as much as I can. Setting this up properly will make you extremely happy with pneumatic tools.

I also oil my tools manually and don't use those automatic oiling deals in the line. Paint and oil are a no no.      

DISCLAIMER - (and note to onlookers) - TheAMCForum.com recognizes that PCV pipe used for pressurized air supply is dangerous and risky, does not support the use of PVC for shop air lines and in fact recommends against it. There are numerous documented cases of PVC exploding leading to serious injury from the resulting sharp shrapnel. As with all things, it may work for years, or it may work for days and result in permanent injury.
The percentage of failure is high enough to warrant a warning to viewers of this forum and suggest anyone looking to install air supply lines avoid the use of PVC.
We are in no way responsible for your use of such a product, especially when there are numerous accounts of exploding pipes with injuries or near-misses.



Edited by billd - Mar/13/2013 at 9:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/13/2013 at 10:23am
I use an oiler in one line in my upstairs wood shop, I have two drops at one location, one has the oiler, the other has a filter. This way I can plug my nailers and brad guns into one, and any other equipment such as nozzles, spray guns, etc. into the other. Each has a dedicated hose so I don't connect spray equipment or an air nozzle to the hose that had the air tool on it.

Sweating - in Iowa, even my garage has that issue - the floor has water puddles and metal, such as my antique engines, tools, etc. has water droplets all over it. It's when something cool stays cool while warmer more humid air comes in. The humidity in that warm air (which holds more water than cold) hits the cooler object and the water condenses as the air around the cooler object must leave the air and condense. Doesn't matter pole building or garage, it's a matter of cool item coming into contact with warm very humid air certain times of year, under certain conditions. I don't have sweat issues with the copper pipes in my shop, I rather expected at least a little bit, but so far, nothing. I suspect running them high helped.

Cost-wise, I added up my total expenses thus far with copper and compared what I've done vs. buying the air line "kits" and such, and I'm coming out ahead. I figure I've saved so far nearly $100 vs. other methods. Work - the copper means soldering and a bit of work, but to me it's well worth it. If I had to start over, I'd not change a thing. But in comparison to PVC - I probably don't spend any more time running the copper. Cut it, clean it with the brushes you can buy for that purpose to make it much faster, a bit of paste, push together, heat one side of joint, apply solder to the other side, move on.
 I have no worries about rupture with the metal pipe. I could literally run into it with a vehicle, bump it while moving engines or transmissions around, or a 2-wheel cart with a garbage can or heavy box. It will handle impact with little risk. If heaven forbid something DID happen, it would simply pop or split - no shards flying through the shop at speeds high enough to puncture skin and muscle. (I actually saw a pipe blow many years ago - wow, messy.)
I value the one eye I have that is functional, and like to feel as if I can invite my wife, kids, other family members, neighbors, young and old out to my shop with little worry.

I also prefer metal pipe (as I probably said a few times in this thread already) because the metal lines act to remove moisture - if the thing is designed properly. There's little need to have many water traps in a system like I am putting together.
The vertical risers, the drops and drains, all adds up to moisture removal at low cost. The air leaving my compressor expands into a larger vertical pipe, cools as it hits the larger cooler metal pipe and loses a fair amount of moisture right there. As the air expands under any condition, it cools, thus has to drop water. Allow the air to expand and cool soon after leaving, it's already dropped a fair amount as is born out by my need to drain that first riser more frequently, and getting more out of it than any other. Thus moisture removal methods near-by can work. My next riser is a few feet away  - air is taken from the TOP of the line, goes up, then back down to my first drop. The fact it has to go up several inches means any water in that line won't "run" or "drop" into the line going down. I have several feet of drop, the connection, then a few more inches. It's another natural cheap water "trap" or removal.  You do definitely want some distance between the compressor and your drop or tool. Don't plug a short line into the compressor, or take air from a line a short distance away.
In my shop I hung the horizontal lines to have a bit of fall to them so as air travels along the runs if water falls out, it keeps on running downhill inside the pipe to the end where there's another drop (and drain valve) to collect water. Each drop along the run goes out of the horizontal line at the top, up a few inches, then down just like the first.
One thing I have noticed since moving to this sort of a system is that when I use an air nozzle, I no longer get that "moist" or wet air feeling as the air hits my hand, say when blowing off a part. I can blow air onto something and not see the very fine change of tone as moist air hits - because it's pretty dry air by the time it gets that far. I can feel the difference, I can see the difference, blowing high-pressure air on parts no longer makes me feel like I'm making things wet or would cause any quick rust. I noticed a huge difference in my blasting cabinets. They not longer have any moisture issues - beads, sand, nothing sticks to the parts as I blast. The nozzles flow more freely, I don't have anything plug up. The media absolutely feels and stays dry, no clumping even in our climate. My air tools don't get a moist feeling to them after long use because of moisture in the air leaving the tool and condensing on it. This is all with the natural water removal built into the system.
I have valves everywhere - I can isolate any part of the system I want to do maintenance, add or change anything, and at the bottom ends of the drops to drain water out as needed if needed.

Wrambler, you won't have moisture issues with cast........ or should not....
Some folks take that cooling thing further, and run pipe or coils or those radiator units through a small fridge. Some commercial units I've seen are just that, sort of a dorm-sized fridge with coils in them that the air runs through.

I took what I knew of very basic physics and science, grabbed the best, or what I thought was the best, of what others had done and came up with what I hope was/is a decent plan, not very high cost, pretty maintenance-free. I feel that I limited or reduced the need for expensive water traps and have a safe, reliable system in my shop, upstairs and down. I have a few more lines to run - I'm going to have a few more drops of various configurations for various purposes, but have almost all the materials I need. I catch the copper on sale - watch and sometimes you can catch pretty good deals on decent copper.
When I want it to last as long as I live, want low maintenance, safety, reliability, I'll do what is needed and then save somewhere else...........this puppy will be solid and work perfectly, and I won't be running hoses all over the place. I hate tripping over hoses or having a hose catch on something, or knocking something over.

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